Has it ever occured to anyone, that when gac starts the old skill rating determines the league.
Afterwards the squish applies (so it appears everyone is still in their old league).
Only after the first time leagues are calculated after! the squish we see massive drop in kyber1. The rest of the gac season the kyber 1 size won't really change much anymore.
Skill squish in kyber 1 is 100% real. I used to be in kyber 1, lose 1 battle and drop to kyber 2. I would have to win 3 to 6 battles in a row to get back up to kyber 1. I completely gave up on it because of how ridiculous it is. There's no reason that if you lose one battle out of 5 you get demoted. I have won when I was low in kyber 1 and got demoted to kyber 2 because I missed the threshold by less then 10 points.
Cg won't do anything about it, it is what it is. And it's not a huge difference in crystals on a weekly basis. Only part that hurts is end of event pay outs.
Has it ever occured to anyone, that when gac starts the old skill rating determines the league.
Afterwards the squish applies (so it appears everyone is still in their old league).
Only after the first time leagues are calculated after! the squish we see massive drop in kyber1. The rest of the gac season the kyber 1 size won't really change much anymore.
That's kinda the point. They were disingenuous when they said squish won't change your league, cause while that's technically true, people get squished below the demotion line and then even winning sometimes isn't enough to get them above it
This GAC there is less than 1300 people that started above the squish line
Why are we even talking about rankings? They mean nothing. Your SR is what gets you into a division not your ranking. Being moved down a division decreases your crystal income regardless of your ranking. The ranking argument is completely irrelevant.
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
This shows the Squish didn't change their Division, since they're still in K1. They're also getting a benefit of K1 rewards for having a K2 Skill Rating.
I think it just means this person ended up in K1 based on the Skill Rating ranges for the last Season, but they did not end up in the Top 2% of players, which is what K1 should be. So when the new Season lines were drawn, not being in the Top 2%, they end up with a K2 ranking. But benefit from K1 status for an additional time, which is nice.
It’s exactly the example you asked for tbf: while it didn't change division when squish was applied, you could actually win your next battle (increasing skill rating) and be demoted.
It’s a delayed relegation, as I will finished in K2 after first round, win or lose. It also means i need to score 6-3 to stay in K1 this season, even if i finished in K1 last season. I’m not complaining though, it it what it is.
You're right it's what I asked for. Thanks for that. It showed what I thought about the Squish not causing demotions, but I see how after the first match, demotions could then occur.
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Not mine, from a guild member
"Congratulations on defeating" and "Relegation" should never be in the same message.
So yes technically CG didn't lie when the squish happens you won't change division, what they left out is after the first battle even if you win you may drop.
Edit: Added image
Wow, that's some straight up Bantha Poodoo right there. What could the reasoning for that possibly be? Congrats on winning! Your reward is a demotion!
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
According to the initial communication when GAC 2.0 came out, the population of a division is proportionate to the league, which is proportionate to the enter GAC player base. So given how much K1 has shrunk over the time, either the entire GAC player base has shrunk that much too, or they have given up on maintaining the percentages, without any announcement. Neither feels like a good scenario.
Why are we even talking about rankings? They mean nothing. Your SR is what gets you into a division not your ranking. Being moved down a division decreases your crystal income regardless of your ranking. The ranking argument is completely irrelevant.
It ties directly into how the player base would be split up into Divisions using a percentage-based approach. Top 2% to K1, Next 5% to K2, all the way down to the bottom 2% in C5. Your ranking would determine which Division you'd end up in, since it indicates what percentage of players are above and below you.
Not saying this is the approach they're taking, but it sure seems like the percentage breakdown the Divisions were originally set up with is what they're striving (and failing) to maintain.
It ties directly into how the player base would be split up into Divisions using a percentage-based approach. Top 2% to K1, Next 5% to K2, all the way down to the bottom 2% in C5. Your ranking would determine which Division you'd end up in, since it indicates what percentage of players are above and below you.
That doesn't make any sense. Rankings are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with anything. Everything is based off SR, not ranking. And even if you were trying to make an argument on ranking and percentage base that doesn't work either as we've seen K1 drop dramatically. If it was percentage based it would stay static. Regardless rankings have nothing to do with the squish, SR is the only thing that matters.
It ties directly into how the player base would be split up into Divisions using a percentage-based approach. Top 2% to K1, Next 5% to K2, all the way down to the bottom 2% in C5. Your ranking would determine which Division you'd end up in, since it indicates what percentage of players are above and below you.
That doesn't make any sense. Rankings are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with anything. Everything is based off SR, not ranking. And even if you were trying to make an argument on ranking and percentage base that doesn't work either as we've seen K1 drop dramatically. If it was percentage based it would stay static. Regardless rankings have nothing to do with the squish, SR is the only thing that matters.
Yes, but the suggestion is that it should be based off ranking, which would solve the population decrease. I can get if there is an actual problem with implementing it, but I can’t understand ignoring a possible solution. It’s really simple - if one of the goals is to keep the population of the divisions within an appropriate range, then skill squish needs to factor in rankings and account for that. Otherwise any system implemented will inevitably distort the division sizes.
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life.
It is reducing the percentage of the player base in K1 (when you claim it is maintaining this percentage)
I haven't claimed this. I just said that Kyber 1 was probably intended to be the Top 2% of players. Yes the percentage is changing, but that's not because of the Squish. Since the Squish doesn't change rankings, the percentages must be changing. And if that's the case, that would happen with or without the Squish.
Sure, your ranking does not change, but your ranking does not determine your division, the boundary for K1 is 3610. Eventually, the 50th ranked player in world will be 3605 and K2, unless squish is changed.
Sure, your ranking does not change, but your ranking does not determine your division, the boundary for K1 is 3610. Eventually, the 50th ranked player in world will be 3605 and K2, unless squish is changed.
Yes, they're failing with K1. Acknowledged.
As to ranking, let's take an example. Suppose we're trying to keep K1 to the Top 2% of the player-base. And after a GAC Season, about 3% of the players have a Skill Rating value over 3610. To get back to 2%, you've have to shave that bottom 1% off into K2. Sadge.
And then you linearly map these player's Skill Ratings over to new Skill Ratings so that the unfortunate 1% ends up under 3610, and pull down the values of the Top 2% down closer to 3610 as well. What I think of as "The Squish" (YMMV).
If keeping the percentages as originally laid out is a goal, this would be an obvious way to do it. And we really don't know it isn't. The shrinking of K1 is either an error or intentional, if this if what CG is attempting to accomplish.
Sure, your ranking does not change, but your ranking does not determine your division, the boundary for K1 is 3610. Eventually, the 50th ranked player in world will be 3605 and K2, unless squish is changed.
Yes, they're failing with K1. Acknowledged.
As to ranking, let's take an example. Suppose we're trying to keep K1 to the Top 2% of the player-base. And after a GAC Season, about 3% of the players have a Skill Rating value over 3610. To get back to 2%, you've have to shave that bottom 1% off into K2. Sadge.
And then you linearly map these player's Skill Ratings over to new Skill Ratings so that the unfortunate 1% ends up under 3610, and pull down the values of the Top 2% down closer to 3610 as well. What I think of as "The Squish" (YMMV).
If keeping the percentages as originally laid out is a goal, this would be an obvious way to do it. And we really don't know it isn't. The shrinking of K1 is either an error or intentional, if this if what CG is attempting to accomplish.
If CG’s intention is a 50/50 win/loss rate how would kyber 1 grow and for them to then squish you back? My guess and many folks hit on it is that their squish calculation to determine your new SR is wrong….it is too extreme. Players are dropping say 50 points during the squish which maybe they should only drop 10. Thus when the win their first round match they still drop out of kyber 1. Is this intentional to reduce crystal income or truly an oversight? My guess it is the former not the latter or this would have been fixed.
Sure, your ranking does not change, but your ranking does not determine your division, the boundary for K1 is 3610. Eventually, the 50th ranked player in world will be 3605 and K2, unless squish is changed.
Yes, they're failing with K1. Acknowledged.
As to ranking, let's take an example. Suppose we're trying to keep K1 to the Top 2% of the player-base. And after a GAC Season, about 3% of the players have a Skill Rating value over 3610. To get back to 2%, you've have to shave that bottom 1% off into K2. Sadge.
And then you linearly map these player's Skill Ratings over to new Skill Ratings so that the unfortunate 1% ends up under 3610, and pull down the values of the Top 2% down closer to 3610 as well. What I think of as "The Squish" (YMMV).
If keeping the percentages as originally laid out is a goal, this would be an obvious way to do it. And we really don't know it isn't. The shrinking of K1 is either an error or intentional, if this if what CG is attempting to accomplish.
If CG’s intention is a 50/50 win/loss rate how would kyber 1 grow and for them to then squish you back? My guess and many folks hit on it is that their squish calculation to determine your new SR is wrong….it is too extreme. Players are dropping say 50 points during the squish which maybe they should only drop 10. Thus when the win their first round match they still drop out of kyber 1. Is this intentional to reduce crystal income or truly an oversight? My guess it is the former not the latter or this would have been fixed.
I know K1 shrinks. That post doesn't prove it's shrinking in error.
Their announcement of GAC does indicate it's in error - there is supposed to be a roughly fixed percentage of players in each division, not a constant push down. So yes, it is in error.
Q: In the new format, are league and division sizes limited by A) percentage of active players, specific number of players or C) something else entirely? If "something else entirely", can you please explain?
A: Players will be evenly split by the population across the 5 Leagues. Inside of each League, Divisions are set to be 10/25/30/25/10%.
Note this will not be exact, but the intent is to keep it close to these numbers and will be our goal with any future tuning of the system. -Jay
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
In the normal bracket rounds you get the rewards according to where you are. So if you get demoted after the first fight, your daily reward will be the one from the new lower division you are in. That was also what I was talking about in my previous comment since in the context they were talking about getting demoted after the first fight.
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
In the normal bracket rounds you get the rewards according to where you are. So if you get demoted after the first fight, your daily reward will be the one from the new lower division you are in. That was also what I was talking about in my previous comment since in the context they were talking about getting demoted after the first fight.
Pretty clear to me they were referencing the week where you still collected higher rewards prior to getting demoted.
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
In the normal bracket rounds you get the rewards according to where you are. So if you get demoted after the first fight, your daily reward will be the one from the new lower division you are in. That was also what I was talking about in my previous comment since in the context they were talking about getting demoted after the first fight.
Pretty clear to me they were referencing the week where you still collected higher rewards prior to getting demoted.
Scuba was talking about getting demoted after the first match, which is why to me Screerider's answer was also referencing that... but if they were talking about the week before the first match, fair enough. It's sometimes easy to miss what people are referring. But it also doesn't make sense because the squish happens right before the new GAC season and not a week before so people would still get that previous reward of K1 anyway for a week even if the squish would demote people immediately.
I know K1 shrinks. That post doesn't prove it's shrinking in error.
Their announcement of GAC does indicate it's in error - there is supposed to be a roughly fixed percentage of players in each division, not a constant push down. So yes, it is in error.
Q: In the new format, are league and division sizes limited by A) percentage of active players, specific number of players or C) something else entirely? If "something else entirely", can you please explain?
A: Players will be evenly split by the population across the 5 Leagues. Inside of each League, Divisions are set to be 10/25/30/25/10%.
Note this will not be exact, but the intent is to keep it close to these numbers and will be our goal with any future tuning of the system. -Jay
Intentions change.
Some might even say they were never there to begin with, regardless of what was stated.
This is what I was saying. You don't get demoted when the squish happens, but after the first match, even with a win you could get demoted. That is just not right. A win should not give a demotion
Or, look at it as a free week of K1 rewards.
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
In the normal bracket rounds you get the rewards according to where you are. So if you get demoted after the first fight, your daily reward will be the one from the new lower division you are in. That was also what I was talking about in my previous comment since in the context they were talking about getting demoted after the first fight.
Pretty clear to me they were referencing the week where you still collected higher rewards prior to getting demoted.
Scuba was talking about getting demoted after the first match, which is why to me Screerider's answer was also referencing that... but if they were talking about the week before the first match, fair enough. It's sometimes easy to miss what people are referring. But it also doesn't make sense because the squish happens right before the new GAC season and not a week before so people would still get that previous reward of K1 anyway for a week even if the squish would demote people immediately.
Yes - let’s agree that “a free week of K1 rewards” is no reason to tolerate this poorly designed squish nonsense.
As I understand it, the squish is needed because of their fat-in-the-middle divisions.
If there is 10% in div 1, and 25% in div 2, then there are more than twice as many players that got a win in a round in div 2 than got a loss in div 1. So more players get a SR increase than lose it. Near the division boundary, that means more players move up than down.
The same goes for your 30% div 3 compared to 25% div 2. More players in div 3 gained SR than div 2 players lost SR.
The same thing happens in the other direction too. Divs 1 and 5 grow by quite a bit over the 3 rounds, divs 2 and 4 grow a bit, div 3 shrinks.
The squish is supposed to counter this, pushing all players back towards div 3.
The other thing that could happen is one or a group of players win a bunch and gets out of reach of others at the top of k1. I guess the squish is to counter that too.
I have no idea why aurodium all get squished down.
Wouldn't the need for squish (apart from runaway players) just go away if they set the divisions at 20% each? Same amount of players move up and down each round, regardless of division. 20% each would be self-regulating, just leaving something to be done about runaways.
@Taliana has explained why this has happened, and it's all Aesop's fault (kidding but not really).
The squish formula is based on the range of scores in a division, so k1 is the only one that the range is so wide so the squish is more than intended.
She has proposed many good solutions. Listen to her interview on under the holotable... It's a fascinating dive and way more knowledgeable than anything in this thread (and I know tagging her will summon her to nerd out here and set you all straight)
@Taliana has explained why this has happened, and it's all Aesop's fault (kidding but not really).
The squish formula is based on the range of scores in a division, so k1 is the only one that the range is so wide so the squish is more than intended.
She has proposed many good solutions. Listen to her interview on under the holotable... It's a fascinating dive and way more knowledgeable than anything in this thread (and I know tagging her will summon her to nerd out here and set you all straight)
It doesn't matter if we agree with her, or listen to her. It's CG that needs to do the listening and fix this. Again it gives a perception that there's an issue only effecting players negatively, so it's a lower priority to fix and to talk about with players.
They apparently have more important things to work on, like new "content" to release.
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Afterwards the squish applies (so it appears everyone is still in their old league).
Only after the first time leagues are calculated after! the squish we see massive drop in kyber1. The rest of the gac season the kyber 1 size won't really change much anymore.
Cg won't do anything about it, it is what it is. And it's not a huge difference in crystals on a weekly basis. Only part that hurts is end of event pay outs.
That's kinda the point. They were disingenuous when they said squish won't change your league, cause while that's technically true, people get squished below the demotion line and then even winning sometimes isn't enough to get them above it
This GAC there is less than 1300 people that started above the squish line
How so? When you get demoted you get the rewards of the division you dropped down to/the lower reward. They changed that a while ago. Haven't you noticed? You no longer get the rewards of the division you started in for the rest of the week.
Wow, that's some straight up Bantha Poodoo right there. What could the reasoning for that possibly be? Congrats on winning! Your reward is a demotion!
But... at the end of a season, if your SR is 3611 (meaning you are in Kyber1) and then the squish pushes your skill rating down to 3555 (meaning you should be in Kyber2), you will still be paid the daily rewards for being in K1 until the end of your first round match in the next GAC. So for those daily rewards you are still given the upper division rewards for a week after the squish.
I don't remember what happens to your round rewards during that first GAC bracket. My guess is you still get the round win/loss rewards as if you were in K1 but I could be wrong. The bracket rewards are exactly the same for K1 and K2, so there is no difference there.
Not saying this is the approach they're taking, but it sure seems like the percentage breakdown the Divisions were originally set up with is what they're striving (and failing) to maintain.
That doesn't make any sense. Rankings are irrelevant. They have nothing to do with anything. Everything is based off SR, not ranking. And even if you were trying to make an argument on ranking and percentage base that doesn't work either as we've seen K1 drop dramatically. If it was percentage based it would stay static. Regardless rankings have nothing to do with the squish, SR is the only thing that matters.
Yes, but the suggestion is that it should be based off ranking, which would solve the population decrease. I can get if there is an actual problem with implementing it, but I can’t understand ignoring a possible solution. It’s really simple - if one of the goals is to keep the population of the divisions within an appropriate range, then skill squish needs to factor in rankings and account for that. Otherwise any system implemented will inevitably distort the division sizes.
Sure, your ranking does not change, but your ranking does not determine your division, the boundary for K1 is 3610. Eventually, the 50th ranked player in world will be 3605 and K2, unless squish is changed.
As to ranking, let's take an example. Suppose we're trying to keep K1 to the Top 2% of the player-base. And after a GAC Season, about 3% of the players have a Skill Rating value over 3610. To get back to 2%, you've have to shave that bottom 1% off into K2. Sadge.
And then you linearly map these player's Skill Ratings over to new Skill Ratings so that the unfortunate 1% ends up under 3610, and pull down the values of the Top 2% down closer to 3610 as well. What I think of as "The Squish" (YMMV).
If keeping the percentages as originally laid out is a goal, this would be an obvious way to do it. And we really don't know it isn't. The shrinking of K1 is either an error or intentional, if this if what CG is attempting to accomplish.
or they just don't know how to fix it.
Their announcement of GAC does indicate it's in error - there is supposed to be a roughly fixed percentage of players in each division, not a constant push down. So yes, it is in error.
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/251844/developer-q-a-grand-arena-championship-changes-12-02/p1
In the normal bracket rounds you get the rewards according to where you are. So if you get demoted after the first fight, your daily reward will be the one from the new lower division you are in. That was also what I was talking about in my previous comment since in the context they were talking about getting demoted after the first fight.
Pretty clear to me they were referencing the week where you still collected higher rewards prior to getting demoted.
Scuba was talking about getting demoted after the first match, which is why to me Screerider's answer was also referencing that... but if they were talking about the week before the first match, fair enough. It's sometimes easy to miss what people are referring. But it also doesn't make sense because the squish happens right before the new GAC season and not a week before so people would still get that previous reward of K1 anyway for a week even if the squish would demote people immediately.
Intentions change.
Some might even say they were never there to begin with, regardless of what was stated.
If there is 10% in div 1, and 25% in div 2, then there are more than twice as many players that got a win in a round in div 2 than got a loss in div 1. So more players get a SR increase than lose it. Near the division boundary, that means more players move up than down.
The same goes for your 30% div 3 compared to 25% div 2. More players in div 3 gained SR than div 2 players lost SR.
The same thing happens in the other direction too. Divs 1 and 5 grow by quite a bit over the 3 rounds, divs 2 and 4 grow a bit, div 3 shrinks.
The squish is supposed to counter this, pushing all players back towards div 3.
The other thing that could happen is one or a group of players win a bunch and gets out of reach of others at the top of k1. I guess the squish is to counter that too.
I have no idea why aurodium all get squished down.
Wouldn't the need for squish (apart from runaway players) just go away if they set the divisions at 20% each? Same amount of players move up and down each round, regardless of division. 20% each would be self-regulating, just leaving something to be done about runaways.
The squish formula is based on the range of scores in a division, so k1 is the only one that the range is so wide so the squish is more than intended.
She has proposed many good solutions. Listen to her interview on under the holotable... It's a fascinating dive and way more knowledgeable than anything in this thread (and I know tagging her will summon her to nerd out here and set you all straight)
It doesn't matter if we agree with her, or listen to her. It's CG that needs to do the listening and fix this. Again it gives a perception that there's an issue only effecting players negatively, so it's a lower priority to fix and to talk about with players.
They apparently have more important things to work on, like new "content" to release.