While stunning is a counter to everyone, Fives suffers from it much more than most. He is slow, so it takes him longer to break stun. His damage is only decent when countering, but not very strong on his actual turn.
Fives without Omega mat for his basic attack is not OP and can be dealt with pretty easily.
I think it is kind of unfair to compare Fives with a lvl8 basic with other toons not at the same level. How does it compare with Daka and her +15% stun? What about GS and a +15% damage
I'm pretty sure some of the other lvl8 abilities we will find are equally powerful and will negate the devastating effect of Fives' counter + double tap.
Fives absolutely can be obnoxious to go up against. High health, calls assists, counterattacks, and debuffs. Where's the weakness? Of course the main solution for him is stunning, but then again that's true of...every other character in the game. Fives has no unique hard counters (unlike, say, RG and dispels) and is himself a counter to, uh, pretty much everyone.
IMO the combination of counterattacking and high health is a bad one. People don't not attack Fives early because he sucks (ala Old Ben), they leave him alone because the counterattack will murder you early on and it's often better to go after a squishier toon first to get one out of the way early. The problem, of course, is that leaving Fives til last can also be a bad strategy, because by then your toons will likely be hurting and his counterattacking can wipe out multiple people.
...
Tanks are balanced because they don't do much damage, but can control the battle and take a long time to kill. Healers are balanced because they also don't do much damage (though Lumi is pretty good) but can prevent others from dying. Glass cannon DPS are balanced because they will punish you if left alive, but die easily.
Fives falls into none of those categories. He is a tank and ignoreable...right up until the point you start attacking him. Then he instantly turns into a high-DPS, high-health toon. Where is the balance in that?
Fives IS controlling the battle as a tank should. Only he is doing it implicitly through his speed down and counters rather than something explicit like a taunt. It's up to a player to realize and manage this with their own attack discipline, rather than succumb to a hard mechanic like a taunt.
Fives forces the attacker to either whittle away at him throughout the fight where the attacker can choose when and what toon gets to soak the counterattack. Leaving him for last is an extremely poor decision unless your team is extremely strong at healing, stunning, or loaded with foresight.
Fives has an 85% counter rate, thus a counter attack is almost always a sure bet, and his counters do 50% more damage than his normal attack. All the more reason the attacker needs to attack Fives during the match when he can choose who will receive that damage and when, as well as when to heal it. If Fives is saved until the end, the attacker has consciously forfeited those decisions, thus should not be surprised if Fives ends up wrecking them at that point (assuming the attacker had none of the countermeasures I mentioned earlier). It's not a case of Fives being OP, it was the attacker being either unprepared for dealing with Fives's damage, or mismanaging the process.
Fives absolutely can be obnoxious to go up against. High health, calls assists, counterattacks, and debuffs. Where's the weakness? Of course the main solution for him is stunning, but then again that's true of...every other character in the game. Fives has no unique hard counters (unlike, say, RG and dispels) and is himself a counter to, uh, pretty much everyone.
IMO the combination of counterattacking and high health is a bad one. People don't not attack Fives early because he sucks (ala Old Ben), they leave him alone because the counterattack will murder you early on and it's often better to go after a squishier toon first to get one out of the way early. The problem, of course, is that leaving Fives til last can also be a bad strategy, because by then your toons will likely be hurting and his counterattacking can wipe out multiple people.
...
Tanks are balanced because they don't do much damage, but can control the battle and take a long time to kill. Healers are balanced because they also don't do much damage (though Lumi is pretty good) but can prevent others from dying. Glass cannon DPS are balanced because they will punish you if left alive, but die easily.
Fives falls into none of those categories. He is a tank and ignoreable...right up until the point you start attacking him. Then he instantly turns into a high-DPS, high-health toon. Where is the balance in that?
Fives IS controlling the battle as a tank should. Only he is doing it implicitly through his speed down and counters rather than something explicit like a taunt. It's up to a player to realize and manage this with their own attack discipline, rather than succumb to a hard mechanic like a taunt.
Fives forces the attacker to either whittle away at him throughout the fight where the attacker can choose when and what toon gets to soak the counterattack. Leaving him for last is an extremely poor decision unless your team is extremely strong at healing, stunning, or loaded with foresight.
Fives has an 85% counter rate, thus a counter attack is almost always a sure bet, and his counters do 50% more damage than his normal attack. All the more reason the attacker needs to attack Fives during the match when he can choose who will receive that damage and when, as well as when to heal it. If Fives is saved until the end, the attacker has consciously forfeited those decisions, thus should not be surprised if Fives ends up wrecking them at that point (assuming the attacker had none of the countermeasures I mentioned earlier). It's not a case of Fives being OP, it was the attacker being either unprepared for dealing with Fives's damage, or mismanaging the process.
This thread is hilarious, but I really hope devs don't see it and consider nerfing Fives. He's *barely* viable in high end arena - any nerf would take him out of the team. He is barely noticeable until the end, unless you are trying to AoE. And my gear 9 Fives can at best win a 2v1 against other gear 9 toons. He will lose a 1v1 miserably against RG or Daka.
Basically, he's another "noob slayer." If you go up against him with an undergeared team and don't protect a stunner until the end, he will seem unstoppable. On defense, he keeps you from dropping too far because undergeared teams can't take him down. But any top 10 team will run him over without a problem. I wouldn't even consider a role player like Fives to be in the top 10 OP toons (Rey, GS, RG, Dooku, QGJ, Daka, Yoda(even after nerf), Aayla, Leia, Vader(in the future)).
Nerfing him would be absurd. But carry on the complaining, it's hilarious!
Edit: Maybe the AI boosts his counter rate, but I can confirm on offense that he is only countering at 85%.
He's barely viable until he levels up his basic to 8. At which point he's probably the most dangerous character in the game once you start attacking him.
He's barely viable until he levels up his basic to 8. At which point he's probably the most dangerous character in the game once you start attacking him.
Since he wasn't there for the rest of the fight, once you start attacking him you should be at a significant advantage. He has to be dangerous as the last man standing or he's just garbage.
You are at a significant advantage, yes. The OP is right though in that he can 1v5 you if you lack stuns or healing. Even if you just miss your stun at the wrong moment. He more than RG, Dooku, or anyone else at that point is the most likely character in the game to win you a defense. I mean generally he still won't, but that's because you will usually lose on defense regardless. All I'd want is his basic to be looked at for level 8 on how it double attacks even if the opponent didn't start with Speed Down before the first attack.
All I'd want is his basic to be looked at for level 8 on how it double attacks even if the opponent didn't start with Speed Down before the first attack.
The extra attack behavior is consistent with the description (admittedly somewhat ambiguous). To change it would be a nerf, not a bug fix. It's really early to start nerfing level 8 abilities, before we've seen many of them in action, and while most people complaining are trying to take him out with toons a gear level behind him. Anyone who already has him with a level 8 ability almost certainly also has him at gear 9. All the people complaining seem to be running gear 8 toons.
He's barely viable until he levels up his basic to 8. At which point he's probably the most dangerous character in the game once you start attacking him.
Since he wasn't there for the rest of the fight, once you start attacking him you should be at a significant advantage. He has to be dangerous as the last man standing or he's just garbage.
This. The danger in running Fives is that your opponent (if smart) will focus their firepower on your other four toons first, making them die sooner. Having Fives on your team isn't all sunshine and daisies.
Now that this thread has thoroughly analyzed how to beat a Fives team, can we just stop with the calls to nerf him?
Cmoon guys.. I run a Fives(G9) in my phasma(L), Savage (g9), Kylo(G9), Dooku team. I still lose, even on Offense. Can't handle taunts with dps. He's definitly not OP
You are at a significant advantage, yes. The OP is right though in that he can 1v5 you if you lack stuns or healing. Even if you just miss your stun at the wrong moment. He more than RG, Dooku, or anyone else at that point is the most likely character in the game to win you a defense. I mean generally he still won't, but that's because you will usually lose on defense regardless. All I'd want is his basic to be looked at for level 8 on how it double attacks even if the opponent didn't start with Speed Down before the first attack.
That's the part I would look at too. The wording is ambiguous so not sure if it's a bug, but if it's eventually decided that Fives is actually too strong, changing it to only apply to targets that already had speed down at the start of the turn is the way to go.
I think in general, the real reason with Fives, is similar to running RG, it just take TIME to beat him. That time can widdle away on the arena timer. It's not nearly as bad as it was right after the update, but I had to have my Yoda go 1v1 against Rg and had to hit auto to make up time before I ran out. BTW Yoda works very well now, as he should. Nerfs were not a factor. I watched him pick away at Rg while Yoda himself was at 30%. Beautiful victory.
Should I get upset because my team of Ugnaughts, jaws, resistance trooper, manga guard, and Coruscant Underworld Police gets beat?
It shouldn't matter that I'm ignoring opponent strengths. I should be able to win anyway, right?
Should I get upset because my team of Ugnaughts, jaws, resistance trooper, manga guard, and Coruscant Underworld Police gets beat?
It shouldn't matter that I'm ignoring opponent strengths. I should be able to win anyway, right?
You don't understand good sir. These people have already earned the characters to be #1. Time permitting, they should be able to finish #1 every day. They don't need to get new characters or experiment with strategies, just do the same thing they've always done. They are entitled to that, you see.
Fives at 76+ is a pain. I find that I need 3 close to full health characters guarantee a win. I will say though that full health Savage + Lumi vs. Full health 5s is a win for Savage and Lumi 100% of the time. Savage gets one crit with is basic all of the sudden 5's is hitting for 1k. And Savage gains turn meter and offense up on attack so if things go well you can attack faster than 5s. At 76 Savage's basic hit for a decent amount (based on being 30% more than what he hits for at 75 level 7).
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
Fives at 76+ is a pain. I find that I need 3 close to full health characters guarantee a win. I will say though that full health Savage + Lumi vs. Full health 5s is a win for Savage and Lumi 100% of the time. Savage gets one crit with is basic all of the sudden 5's is hitting for 1k. And Savage gains turn meter and offense up on attack so if things go well you can attack faster than 5s. At 76 Savage's basic hit for a decent amount (based on being 30% more than what he hits for at 75 level 7).
What's this? Someone comparing level 8 abilities to other level 8 abilities?
I agree, fives needs to be worked on. It ridiculous that if you have 3 or fewer heroes left against a 5s, you're very probably going to lose that match.
This is very true.
Everyone saying he is fine has no experience with him at high level since the update, or they use or are planning to use him for his completely ridiculous overpoweredness
I have. There's a guy that uses a level 76 Fives on my server with a Dooku lead. Is he hard? Yea he's pretty strong, but unbeatable? Not by a long shot. Everyone has Dooku, Dooku stuns shut down Fives. Most people have Daka and if not shes there for you to farm, she shuts down Fives. Many people have RG and he is soon to be universally farmed in stage 7 Cantina. He destroys Fives. If you have those 3 together, which is very much a meta squad now, Fives is very easy to counter. Stop whining that you can't use the same cookie cutter team to beat everybody - having characters that require different strategies and tactics to beat is undeniably a good thing for this game.
5's needs to be fixed or they need to fix AI. Right now the AI have an increased dodge,potency and tenacity to help with their horrible targeting. Now that we have got this far into the game they need to work everyone's AI's and take out the bonus they receive. Or, fix the counter attack characters.
why do some posters get so bent out of shape when anyone posts something that seems a bit off in relation to a character.
Fives is countering over 95% of the time.....that is not what the design of the character is supposed to do.
Dooku's leader ability is broken.
These are truth....and remedying those things is not a "nerf" it is a return to what it should be.
I agree fully.
Off topic, love protection and not dying before I get an action. However with all this Dooku and Fives countering combined with protection I am running out of time in the arena if I don't auto play it 1/4th the time. Speed up the video of their counter attack or something. Watching the counter as Dooku has to attack both QGJ and who ever assisted each twice is rediculous.
Replies
The fixed payout times are the worst part of this game and makes it absolutely family-unfriendly.
Fives is not fine.
Fives since the last update:
I have attacked fives 95 times
Of those 95 times 12 have been finishing blows.
Out of the remaining 83 times Fives has counter attacked 82 times.
He is supposed to have a 50% counter attack.
Even on a stun....he still shows up a counter attack.
That is wrong....that is a bug/glitch
– Yoda
I think it is kind of unfair to compare Fives with a lvl8 basic with other toons not at the same level. How does it compare with Daka and her +15% stun? What about GS and a +15% damage
I'm pretty sure some of the other lvl8 abilities we will find are equally powerful and will negate the devastating effect of Fives' counter + double tap.
Just a thought...
Fives IS controlling the battle as a tank should. Only he is doing it implicitly through his speed down and counters rather than something explicit like a taunt. It's up to a player to realize and manage this with their own attack discipline, rather than succumb to a hard mechanic like a taunt.
Fives forces the attacker to either whittle away at him throughout the fight where the attacker can choose when and what toon gets to soak the counterattack. Leaving him for last is an extremely poor decision unless your team is extremely strong at healing, stunning, or loaded with foresight.
Fives has an 85% counter rate, thus a counter attack is almost always a sure bet, and his counters do 50% more damage than his normal attack. All the more reason the attacker needs to attack Fives during the match when he can choose who will receive that damage and when, as well as when to heal it. If Fives is saved until the end, the attacker has consciously forfeited those decisions, thus should not be surprised if Fives ends up wrecking them at that point (assuming the attacker had none of the countermeasures I mentioned earlier). It's not a case of Fives being OP, it was the attacker being either unprepared for dealing with Fives's damage, or mismanaging the process.
Fives has an 85% counter rate, not 50%. See above
While the game may show 'Counter Attack' while stunned, the stunned status prevents him from doing any damage with it.
but it still is registering.....
And 98.7% counter rate over past week or so is still alot higher than 85%.
At leat it was when I went to school, but that was a while ago now.....
– Yoda
Basically, he's another "noob slayer." If you go up against him with an undergeared team and don't protect a stunner until the end, he will seem unstoppable. On defense, he keeps you from dropping too far because undergeared teams can't take him down. But any top 10 team will run him over without a problem. I wouldn't even consider a role player like Fives to be in the top 10 OP toons (Rey, GS, RG, Dooku, QGJ, Daka, Yoda(even after nerf), Aayla, Leia, Vader(in the future)).
Nerfing him would be absurd. But carry on the complaining, it's hilarious!
Edit: Maybe the AI boosts his counter rate, but I can confirm on offense that he is only countering at 85%.
Since he wasn't there for the rest of the fight, once you start attacking him you should be at a significant advantage. He has to be dangerous as the last man standing or he's just garbage.
The extra attack behavior is consistent with the description (admittedly somewhat ambiguous). To change it would be a nerf, not a bug fix. It's really early to start nerfing level 8 abilities, before we've seen many of them in action, and while most people complaining are trying to take him out with toons a gear level behind him. Anyone who already has him with a level 8 ability almost certainly also has him at gear 9. All the people complaining seem to be running gear 8 toons.
This. The danger in running Fives is that your opponent (if smart) will focus their firepower on your other four toons first, making them die sooner. Having Fives on your team isn't all sunshine and daisies.
Now that this thread has thoroughly analyzed how to beat a Fives team, can we just stop with the calls to nerf him?
That's the part I would look at too. The wording is ambiguous so not sure if it's a bug, but if it's eventually decided that Fives is actually too strong, changing it to only apply to targets that already had speed down at the start of the turn is the way to go.
It shouldn't matter that I'm ignoring opponent strengths. I should be able to win anyway, right?
You don't understand good sir. These people have already earned the characters to be #1. Time permitting, they should be able to finish #1 every day. They don't need to get new characters or experiment with strategies, just do the same thing they've always done. They are entitled to that, you see.
/s
What's this? Someone comparing level 8 abilities to other level 8 abilities?
I have. There's a guy that uses a level 76 Fives on my server with a Dooku lead. Is he hard? Yea he's pretty strong, but unbeatable? Not by a long shot. Everyone has Dooku, Dooku stuns shut down Fives. Most people have Daka and if not shes there for you to farm, she shuts down Fives. Many people have RG and he is soon to be universally farmed in stage 7 Cantina. He destroys Fives. If you have those 3 together, which is very much a meta squad now, Fives is very easy to counter. Stop whining that you can't use the same cookie cutter team to beat everybody - having characters that require different strategies and tactics to beat is undeniably a good thing for this game.
Fives is countering over 95% of the time.....that is not what the design of the character is supposed to do.
Dooku's leader ability is broken.
These are truth....and remedying those things is not a "nerf" it is a return to what it should be.
– Yoda
The fixed payout times are the worst part of this game and makes it absolutely family-unfriendly.
fives with his slow, counter attack and stun could lay a serous dent into rey.......
– Yoda
I agree fully.
Off topic, love protection and not dying before I get an action. However with all this Dooku and Fives countering combined with protection I am running out of time in the arena if I don't auto play it 1/4th the time. Speed up the video of their counter attack or something. Watching the counter as Dooku has to attack both QGJ and who ever assisted each twice is rediculous.
I know right. He doesn't even have a taunt and the complaint train is real