The Journey Beyond Poe & the Demise of FOTP: Ludicrous Speed Activated
January 11, 2016 3:16AM
edited January 2016
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Post edited by JohnnySteelAlpha on
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Replies
SWGOH right now is like tic-tac-toe where X goes twice at the start. Turn-based games should not be so reliant on start order, this should provide only a minimal advantage.
Yes we should have something here in a bit - I mentioned above Cythis is working on a F2P version that has promising results in initial testing for him. I do know that it includes Poggle as a key unit and Dooku / Sid as well. I'll let him go in to more detail about the other toons that can work as I don't have them built currently and can't comment on their performance / utility with authority.
I'm not sure if the results will be as high of a winning percentage, but looks to us like it will be a viable option to win more than not.
Alternates for IG-86
Lumi
Daka
Luke
FoTp
Tusken Raider
Sid has already been explained so here is the synergy with Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86.
I will add Dooku's main goal is get a stun on a Jedi preferable Ben or GQJ, however with a Poggle buff he doesn't hit like a wet noodle. I've seen 3-4k x2 with his counter. That's with a 6* max ability Dooku, plus if he gets called to assist from either Geo S or IG 86 he get and additional damage multiple.
Poggle, Speed 136, gives a team offensive up, speed up to droids and comes with an ability block on his basic.
Geonosian Soldier, Speed 134, has an assist attack that if it calls another Geonosian gets increased damage. His unique give Geonosians increased crit chance and he gets 30% to his turn meter when scoring a crit hit. If you ever wondered why he jumps out of turn this is why.
Geo's special also has a 2 turn cool down so it often available twice in a match. Finally I must mention his basic crits for 4-5k (with Poggle buff) and with his unique he crits a lot.
Last is IG-86 why 86 over 88? He just has a better health pool. His special at max level with a Poggle buff will do some massive damage and gets and assist, he also becomes faster than FoTp after he received the poggle speeds buff.
This is not the be all end all FTP build again our objective was just to show that meter builds and FoTp can be beat. It's gives you good speed, stuns, ability blocks, dots, buffs, extra attacks, AOE and high single target dps.
I don't disagree - I mentioned in some thread that Poe wasn't the only problem. It's speed compositions in general. FOO for example can do pretty much the same function as Poe...he's just not as common and widely known. For example, here's a great team iNstinct member saying he has the best meter team...which just wasn't the case because it didn't take FOO in to account:
https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/5167/best-turnmeter-team-for-pvp#latest
Now this team above can be taken out at a high rate not using Poe or FOTP.
Hot, nasty, badarse speed
What we wanted to do in part with posting this information is to show that it's not about nerfing a given toon - but it's about speed in general...speed. Speed needs to be accounted for and that spans a decently sized subset of toons that go beyond Poe or FOO.
EDIT: Speed + damage. And...I'm not saying it's a "problem" now - it may end up being. We don't know how things will shake out at end game. This is just commentary on the current situation at this point in the game's lifecycle. The current speed race may get eclipsed naturally at some point. No one knows for sure. That's why I'm hesitant to say nerf any single given toon - firstly, it won't solve the speed problem and secondly maybe it's not a problem long-term at end game that needs fixed.
Thoughts..
Never stealth Leai in the first round, her buffs are worth it + it's a crap shoot that the AI will target her first. (Even if she is 90% down after round 1 she can stealth and still get in another round.
Replace Rey with Aayla, she has damage, stun, assist and self heal. Use her to weave with whatever situation arises.
(Yeah.. It's cool to see Rey kill fast, but she should (and will) be dead 3 shots after Poe is done.)
Poe is not even a factor anymore, he is the glass cannons of tanks. It's kind of the same paradigm as Poggle, the premise looks promising, but put into practice you get that cringeworthy moment and can't wait for 8 minutes to be up so you can switch out your team.
Maybe with the new levels things will change.
Thanks! Had great times with HODA. Still keeping in touch there, just focused on SW more right now. This game has a lot of promise. I'm excited to see new content.
HODA is in serious need of an overhaul. It's really gotten stale. I'm also very excited to see where this goes.
What's up SUCKA!!
Good to meet you. Yes you have a nice team. I believe your Luke crit me for nearly 9k yesterday in a match. Impressive hitting power is in many places in this game and in the form of non-chrome units as well.
By demise I was using a little hyperbole to prove a point that he was no longer the meta king...along with Poe. They are both still very high end and skilled characters, but definitely beatable at a high rate by other builds. What this did reveal to me though is that once he doesn't have advantage and the opponent isn't overwhelmed by a turn meter ally, TIE looks totally balanced because his mediocre speed and inability to do anything but damage one character is exposed. He's awesome when he's on and can hit faster than his speed, but he's pretty limited and vanilla in what he brings to a team when he's in a fair fight.
If people succeed in nerfing his damage and hitting ability than he will quickly fall off the map I believe, which will happen naturally anyway to a lesser degree as people's rosters fill out more and he's capped at gear 8. Nerfing him now though is a bad idea. He's correctly balanced - you just need more elements of the roster built to expose why he is actually balanced.
This is why we need to hold off for probably a few months on any nerf this or nerf that proclamations. More toons are coming in the form of people unlocking more of the roster and CG is going to release more units...that's on top of high gear that we still don't know what it does (gear 9) coming as well at future levels beyond 70.
...until next patch when Poe breaks 143 speed and takes turns before all guys mentioned as being faster than him right now.
Could be correct if he goes that speed and no other changes happen. We can both project uncertain future events and guess...but this is the here and now.
I disagree, one of the largest turn based rpg game (Summoners War) is highly reliant on speed and turn meters, so yeah, the quicker u can defeat someone the better, the quicker u can attack someone 2 or 3 or even 4 times before the other team the better, the summoners war meta always changed, until it met the spd + dispel meta, the best meta.
Good to meet you as well! Glad to hear Luke gets those hits off sometimes when the AI gets its grubby mitts on him.
Just curious since I never get a chance to talk to anyone that goes up against my squad - does Fives and his speed down ever cause you problems when you are facing him? Thinking of replacing Fives and Lumi with 86 and 88 or 86 and Geo when they are ready.
Any 5s I've faced is more of a speed bump than a real problem. You can just treat him like a Dooku and fire him last. Save a heavy hit for him to get his health down. I think you'd be more dangerous with Geo or a speed buffed droid to attack qucker and harder.
More or less what I expected. He does well vs the AI but so does Dooku and I don't worry about him all that much when I see him anymore. Thanks!
I'm not saying it's a bad choice just after testing it against Poe, Ben, Phasma Lead, FoTp and FOO over and over, 86 just performed better over all at removing the threat.
I've just unlocked 5s and am waiting to star him before using him a lot, but from what I have seen so far, I already think he's underrated. The reason is not the counter or the tankiness (though both are great) but rather the guaranteed (not counting tenacity) 2-turn slow on his main attack. The AI is dumb and multiple opponents will poke at him, getting themselves slowed in the process. Of course he's more easily ignored when you are fighting against him, but he still takes a while to beat down and does a fair bit of damage.
I know that slowing will not allow me to beat the speed demon taunt teams, but I could never beat them anyway. I like to experiment and I'm thinking a stun/counter/slow team with Phasma, Kylo, Dooku, Fives and Daka/Asajj/someone could be very fun to play.
Also testing a team of Sid, Boba, Lumi, 88, and Poggle. 4 of the Five can ability block, with Sid providing the Dots for 88.
He's AOE kryptonite and he wrecks the AI regularly. I'll take 2 turns of slow over 1 turn of stun any day. At 5* he's the lowest starred member of my team and even still he's always the last man standing, wish he did a little more damage though. I'm still probably going to work him up to 7* just because his health is unreal already and he could fit into a lot of different builds.
Sid (L)
Poe
Poggle
IG88
Kylo
Idea behind is to AOE behind an expose/taunt of poe. Hopeing sid and poggle buffing IG88 will allow him to do mega damage. Kylo to do his (lesser) aoe or single target damage to pick people off. kylo could be swapped for another AOE'er from F2P
Are you able to provide any thoughts/views on this team if you have used it or faced it? would the AOE's be strong enough after turn 1 to have killed one of the other team?
great post,
many thanks