He's AOE kryptonite and he wrecks the AI regularly. I'll take 2 turns of slow over 1 turn of stun any day. At 5* he's the lowest starred member of my team and even still he's always the last man standing, wish he did a little more damage though. I'm still probably going to work him up to 7* just because his health is unreal already and he could fit into a lot of different builds.
Well I just fought a team with a high-star Fives and I did what everyone else says: ignored him and saved him for last. He didn't do much. It appears that Fives is another character that is much more useful on offense than defense. He's very slow and didn't impact the game very much. I may have to rethink 7*ing him.
I am a F2P player so I cant build this team quick enough to try it out, though im slowly grinding to it. wondering if you guys had any insight into how well this team would face against the current meta kings, dont know if you have tried it or faced it.
Sid (L)
Poe
Poggle
IG88
Kylo
Idea behind is to AOE behind an expose/taunt of poe. Hopeing sid and poggle buffing IG88 will allow him to do mega damage. Kylo to do his (lesser) aoe or single target damage to pick people off. kylo could be swapped for another AOE'er from F2P
Are you able to provide any thoughts/views on this team if you have used it or faced it? would the AOE's be strong enough after turn 1 to have killed one of the other team?
great post,
many thanks
Poe may be a necessity with 88...I just tried him at 5*, and three of the Five attempts we was taken out before a shot by the ai
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
Excellent post and a great thread. Haven't been playing too long (low 50s so far) but seems as if to progress through the game you start to go for whacking power (am running IG88 lead w FOTP) with Poe or even Chewie to take some punches, after which speed becomes more important (been taken out a few times by some Rey/Leia combo before getting a meaningful shot off)
Looks like bench depth becomes more important the further into the game you go so have decided I should try to build out the character deck instead of grinding my A-team to 7*
Wonder when we'll start to see some new healing/support abilities given the really powerful healers tend to be Jedi (maybe FOO could have a 'Call Reinforcements' ability?
He's AOE kryptonite and he wrecks the AI regularly. I'll take 2 turns of slow over 1 turn of stun any day. At 5* he's the lowest starred member of my team and even still he's always the last man standing, wish he did a little more damage though. I'm still probably going to work him up to 7* just because his health is unreal already and he could fit into a lot of different builds.
Well I just fought a team with a high-star Fives and I did what everyone else says: ignored him and saved him for last. He didn't do much. It appears that Fives is another character that is much more useful on offense than defense. He's very slow and didn't impact the game very much. I may have to rethink 7*ing him.
I, too, leave him for last, but it's annoying to have him Slow your team piece by piece as combat slogs forward. I've never wanted a 5s myself, but I can see what he brings to the table.
You have to be a bit of a liar to tell a story the right way.
He's AOE kryptonite and he wrecks the AI regularly. I'll take 2 turns of slow over 1 turn of stun any day. At 5* he's the lowest starred member of my team and even still he's always the last man standing, wish he did a little more damage though. I'm still probably going to work him up to 7* just because his health is unreal already and he could fit into a lot of different builds.
Well I just fought a team with a high-star Fives and I did what everyone else says: ignored him and saved him for last. He didn't do much. It appears that Fives is another character that is much more useful on offense than defense. He's very slow and didn't impact the game very much. I may have to rethink 7*ing him.
I, too, leave him for last, but it's annoying to have him Slow your team piece by piece as combat slogs forward. I've never wanted a 5s myself, but I can see what he brings to the table.
His value is huge on offense, many times enemy fotp etc hit him over anyone else it's a huge advantage
FOTP is amazing damage, but we all know he's a glass cannon
With the recently updated AI, I find that he is frequently targeted first, and once damaged, he gets all the focus. I'm finding he gets killed within one or two rounds unless healed.
Good for arena battles when you can squeeze a few good attacks from him, and not worried about 1,2, or 3 stars. But for GW and most other 3 stage battles, he really needs to be backed by more than one healer.
So, he hasn't been nerfed, directly, but the revised AI makes him less effective.
FTP Version: Sid, Dooku, Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86
Sid has already been explained so here is the synergy with Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86.
I will add Dooku's main goal is get a stun on a Jedi preferable Ben or GQJ, however with a Poggle buff he doesn't hit like a wet noodle. I've seen 3-4k x2 with his counter. That's with a 6* max ability Dooku, plus if he gets called to assist from either Geo S or IG 86 he get and additional damage multiple.
Poggle, Speed 136, gives a team offensive up, speed up to droids and comes with an ability block on his basic.
Geonosian Soldier, Speed 134, has an assist attack that if it calls another Geonosian gets increased damage. His unique give Geonosians increased crit chance and he gets 30% to his turn meter when scoring a crit hit. If you ever wondered why he jumps out of turn this is why.
Geo's special also has a 2 turn cool down so it often available twice in a match. Finally I must mention his basic crits for 4-5k (with Poggle buff) and with his unique he crits a lot.
Last is IG-86 why 86 over 88? He just has a better health pool. His special at max level with a Poggle buff will do some massive damage and gets and assist, he also becomes faster than FoTp after he received the poggle speeds buff.
This is not the be all end all FTP build again our objective was just to show that meter builds and FoTp can be beat. It's gives you good speed, stuns, ability blocks, dots, buffs, extra attacks, AOE and high single target dps.
I am sorry, but how is this team comp an effective counter to a Poe/FOTP team?
Most Poe/FOTP teams that I come across have Poe, FOTP, Leia and two out of Phasma/Sid/Lumi/QGJ (and maybe Kylo).
Let's assume a team of Phasma (L), Poe, FOTP, Leia and QGJ (which I find as the most lethal setup). The way how I see the match pans out is,
1. I try to stun Poe with Dooku because he poses as the biggest threat with his taunt/expose/turn meter manipulation. If the stun works, awesome, but often times I find it fails as Poe has high tenacity. Leia is another likely option to go after
2. Leia goes stealth. Let's assume Phasma's assist bonus did not kick in
3. I attack the opponent using Sid - whether it is the AOE or single target attack, doesn't really matter
4. Poe uses taunt. Again, no assist for the sake of argument, but some of my squad loses turn meter
5. Long story short, game over. QGJ attacks with assist and if the assist comes from Leia or FOTP, one of my heroes is gone. Phasma uses AOE slow and FOTP uses his attack which takes out another hero. My Poggle, Genosian Soldier and/or IG-86 didn't even get a chance to act. Even if they did get a turn and take out Poe, Leia will strike with her bugged 3/4 hits early in Round 2. You are probably down to 3,4 heroes by early Round 2 with little chance to turn the tide unless you suddenly get extremely lucky
My point is unless Poe is neutralised by Dooku (which often fails than it happens), my heavy hitters will probably not get a chance to hit. What am I missing here?
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
This is perfect - this is the exact classic setup that this build I posted above was created to counter. I'll take you through the battle a bit.
1. Dooku moves and stuns Jinn - as a Jedi this is pretty reliable...so Jinn is now stunned.
2. Leia generally goes next - focus fire her on Poe.
3. I now have 3 toons (Jinn, Rey, and Sid) that are fighting in the same initiative round as Poe and 2/3 have slightly higher speed than Poe. This means I generally will get multiple of these toons as options to attack before Poe moves. I use them to focus fire on Poe and kill him early. Rey can do 5-6k on her second attack, Sid can do more than 2k on his aoe, and Jinn can do anywhere from 5-8k+ on his hit + assist. Jinn is key here as if Poe does go before him Jinn can dispel his taunt and give my entire team offense up. Also, on Jinn's dispel he hits for more than 3k.
To summarize the battle, his Jinn is stunned, his leia has done no damage as she's gone stealth, Poe will be dead, and if he has fired his taunt he will very soon die from the Sid / Rey / Jinn combo (remember Leia hit him first as well). To this point, I'll have taken zero damage and I may even have offense up if Jinn dispelled due to Poe taunting first.
His TIE / Phasma are the only ones that do damage in round 1. Meanwhile, his Poe is dead, Jinn is severely wounded because Dooku hit him and Sid hit him with AOE, and even his phasma / leia / TIE are softened from Sid and get hit more from the DoTs when they move.
My next target to start off round 2 is actually Jinn, not Tie. He's pretty squishy so Dooku and / or Leia on their second turns can take him out. He often doesn't even move here. The enemy Leia will finally hit, but without offense up or having crit chance up, she doesn't OHKO generally. So at this point, his Jinn is dead having never hit, his Poe is dead also. I'll then use Rey / Sid / Jinn in the second round to drop bombs on TIE. Another aspect here is Phasma if she gives everyone adv. I can then use Jinn dispel early round 2 and give me entire team offense up. Under those conditions, Rey will do >10k damage and that's what I wait to set up for TIE and drop him with...in combination with Sid / Jinn. Majority of the time TIE never gets a 2nd hit off. Then it's just Leia sitting there in stealth and Phasma who can't do much damage.
So here's the summary of the enemy actions:
Jinn: never moved - stunned and killed
Poe: likely never moved - may get taunt and then is immediately killed - never attacks
Leia: stealth in round 1, one hit in round 2, may get 2nd hit in round 3 if she's not been killed by then
TIE: hit at the end of round 1 after all my toons have gone, dead in round 2
Phasma: gets off her speed down and advance and may get third hit as well, but her damage is minimal
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
FTP Version: Sid, Dooku, Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86
Sid has already been explained so here is the synergy with Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86.
I will add Dooku's main goal is get a stun on a Jedi preferable Ben or GQJ, however with a Poggle buff he doesn't hit like a wet noodle. I've seen 3-4k x2 with his counter. That's with a 6* max ability Dooku, plus if he gets called to assist from either Geo S or IG 86 he get and additional damage multiple.
Poggle, Speed 136, gives a team offensive up, speed up to droids and comes with an ability block on his basic.
Geonosian Soldier, Speed 134, has an assist attack that if it calls another Geonosian gets increased damage. His unique give Geonosians increased crit chance and he gets 30% to his turn meter when scoring a crit hit. If you ever wondered why he jumps out of turn this is why.
Geo's special also has a 2 turn cool down so it often available twice in a match. Finally I must mention his basic crits for 4-5k (with Poggle buff) and with his unique he crits a lot.
Last is IG-86 why 86 over 88? He just has a better health pool. His special at max level with a Poggle buff will do some massive damage and gets and assist, he also becomes faster than FoTp after he received the poggle speeds buff.
This is not the be all end all FTP build again our objective was just to show that meter builds and FoTp can be beat. It's gives you good speed, stuns, ability blocks, dots, buffs, extra attacks, AOE and high single target dps.
I am sorry, but how is this team comp an effective counter to a Poe/FOTP team?
Most Poe/FOTP teams that I come across have Poe, FOTP, Leia and two out of Phasma/Sid/Lumi/QGJ (and maybe Kylo).
Let's assume a team of Phasma (L), Poe, FOTP, Leia and QGJ (which I find as the most lethal setup). The way how I see the match pans out is,
1. I try to stun Poe with Dooku because he poses as the biggest threat with his taunt/expose/turn meter manipulation. If the stun works, awesome, but often times I find it fails as Poe has high tenacity. Leia is another likely option to go after
2. Leia goes stealth. Let's assume Phasma's assist bonus did not kick in
3. I attack the opponent using Sid - whether it is the AOE or single target attack, doesn't really matter
4. Poe uses taunt. Again, no assist for the sake of argument, but some of my squad loses turn meter
5. Long story short, game over. QGJ attacks with assist and if the assist comes from Leia or FOTP, one of my heroes is gone. Phasma uses AOE slow and FOTP uses his attack which takes out another hero. My Poggle, Genosian Soldier and/or IG-86 didn't even get a chance to act. Even if they did get a turn and take out Poe, Leia will strike with her bugged 3/4 hits early in Round 2. You are probably down to 3,4 heroes by early Round 2 with little chance to turn the tide unless you suddenly get extremely lucky
My point is unless Poe is neutralised by Dooku (which often fails than it happens), my heavy hitters will probably not get a chance to hit. What am I missing here?
Short answer you need to stun QGJ which gives this build turn 2 advantage so GS gets a shot at FoTp.
I did state it's not the end all be all but has good odds to counter. It was tested over 10 matches and won 6/10. If you want 100% you have to pay.
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
This is perfect - this is the exact classic setup that this build I posted above was created to counter. I'll take you through the battle a bit.
1. Dooku moves and stuns Jinn - as a Jedi this is pretty reliable...so Jinn is now stunned.
2. Leia generally goes next - focus fire her on Poe.
3. I now have 3 toons (Jinn, Rey, and Sid) that are fighting in the same initiative round as Poe and 2/3 have slightly higher speed than Poe. This means I generally will get multiple of these toons as options to attack before Poe moves. I use them to focus fire on Poe and kill him early. Rey can do 5-6k on her second attack, Sid can do more than 2k on his aoe, and Jinn can do anywhere from 5-8k+ on his hit + assist. Jinn is key here as if Poe does go before him Jinn can dispel his taunt and give my entire team offense up. Also, on Jinn's dispel he hits for more than 3k.
To summarize the battle, his Jinn is stunned, his leia has done no damage as she's gone stealth, Poe will be dead, and if he has fired his taunt he will very soon die from the Sid / Rey / Jinn combo (remember Leia hit him first as well). To this point, I'll have taken zero damage and I may even have offense up if Jinn dispelled due to Poe taunting first.
His TIE / Phasma are the only ones that do damage in round 1. Meanwhile, his Poe is dead, Jinn is severely wounded because Dooku hit him and Sid hit him with AOE, and even his phasma / leia / TIE are softened from Sid and get hit more from the DoTs when they move.
My next target to start off round 2 is actually Jinn, not Tie. He's pretty squishy so Dooku and / or Leia on their second turns can take him out. He often doesn't even move here. The enemy Leia will finally hit, but without offense up or having crit chance up, she doesn't OHKO generally. So at this point, his Jinn is dead having never hit, his Poe is dead also. I'll then use Rey / Sid / Jinn in the second round to drop bombs on TIE. Another aspect here is Phasma if she gives everyone adv. I can then use Jinn dispel early round 2 and give me entire team offense up. Under those conditions, Rey will do >10k damage and that's what I wait to set up for TIE and drop him with...in combination with Sid / Jinn. Majority of the time TIE never gets a 2nd hit off. Then it's just Leia sitting there in stealth and Phasma who can't do much damage.
So here's the summary of the enemy actions:
Jinn: never moved - stunned and killed
Poe: likely never moved - may get taunt and then is immediately killed - never attacks
Leia: stealth in round 1, one hit in round 2, may get 2nd hit in round 3 if she's not been killed by then
TIE: hit at the end of round 1 after all my toons have gone, dead in round 2
Phasma: gets off her speed down and advance and may get third hit as well, but her damage is minimal
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Eh, thanks for the detailed explanation ...but the only issue with your suggestion is that most of the heroes mentioned are non-farmable (Leia and QGJ) or technically farmable, but take forever to farm (Dooku and Rey). If a player can field this kind of line-up, then sure, Poe/FOTP teams are addressable.
But most can't.
I started the game from Day 1 of the global launch, have a 20k+ team and compete in the top 20 of what believe is a mature server, but also increasingly struggle to remain relevant with more Poe/Leia/FOTP teams entering the top. It seems no strategy can overcome the fundamental gap (even if the power ratings are similar) or the lack of a deep bench.
Not complaining, but just looking for some team comps that a F2P player can put together relatively quickly/easily. Telling me that I need a QGJ is well... I wish I could have him too. As I said, I can still compete and defeat Poe/Leia/FOTP teams - but only with an awful lot of luck coming to my way.
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
This is perfect - this is the exact classic setup that this build I posted above was created to counter. I'll take you through the battle a bit.
1. Dooku moves and stuns Jinn - as a Jedi this is pretty reliable...so Jinn is now stunned.
2. Leia generally goes next - focus fire her on Poe.
3. I now have 3 toons (Jinn, Rey, and Sid) that are fighting in the same initiative round as Poe and 2/3 have slightly higher speed than Poe. This means I generally will get multiple of these toons as options to attack before Poe moves. I use them to focus fire on Poe and kill him early. Rey can do 5-6k on her second attack, Sid can do more than 2k on his aoe, and Jinn can do anywhere from 5-8k+ on his hit + assist. Jinn is key here as if Poe does go before him Jinn can dispel his taunt and give my entire team offense up. Also, on Jinn's dispel he hits for more than 3k.
To summarize the battle, his Jinn is stunned, his leia has done no damage as she's gone stealth, Poe will be dead, and if he has fired his taunt he will very soon die from the Sid / Rey / Jinn combo (remember Leia hit him first as well). To this point, I'll have taken zero damage and I may even have offense up if Jinn dispelled due to Poe taunting first.
His TIE / Phasma are the only ones that do damage in round 1. Meanwhile, his Poe is dead, Jinn is severely wounded because Dooku hit him and Sid hit him with AOE, and even his phasma / leia / TIE are softened from Sid and get hit more from the DoTs when they move.
My next target to start off round 2 is actually Jinn, not Tie. He's pretty squishy so Dooku and / or Leia on their second turns can take him out. He often doesn't even move here. The enemy Leia will finally hit, but without offense up or having crit chance up, she doesn't OHKO generally. So at this point, his Jinn is dead having never hit, his Poe is dead also. I'll then use Rey / Sid / Jinn in the second round to drop bombs on TIE. Another aspect here is Phasma if she gives everyone adv. I can then use Jinn dispel early round 2 and give me entire team offense up. Under those conditions, Rey will do >10k damage and that's what I wait to set up for TIE and drop him with...in combination with Sid / Jinn. Majority of the time TIE never gets a 2nd hit off. Then it's just Leia sitting there in stealth and Phasma who can't do much damage.
So here's the summary of the enemy actions:
Jinn: never moved - stunned and killed
Poe: likely never moved - may get taunt and then is immediately killed - never attacks
Leia: stealth in round 1, one hit in round 2, may get 2nd hit in round 3 if she's not been killed by then
TIE: hit at the end of round 1 after all my toons have gone, dead in round 2
Phasma: gets off her speed down and advance and may get third hit as well, but her damage is minimal
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Eh... the only issue with your suggestion is that most of the heroes mentioned are non-farmable (Leia and QGJ) or technically farmable, but takes forever to farm (Dooku and Rey). If most players can field this kind of line-up, then sure, Poe/FOTP teams are addressable.
But most players can't.
I started the game from Day 1 of the global launch, have a 20k+ team and compete in the top 20 of what believe is a mature server, but also increasingly struggle to remain relevant with more Poe/Leia/FOTP teams entering the top. It seems no strategy can overcome the fundamental gap (even if the power ratings are similar) and/or the lack of a deep bench/other options.
Not complaining, but just looking for setups that most F2P players can put together relatively quickly/easily. As I said, I can still compete and defeat Poe/Leia/FOTP teams - but with an awful lot of luck coming to my way.
Wait till people start catching up and using Rey couple build on our server that you just can't defend against.
Arena shouldn't keep the same people in the same ranks everyday. If you failed to see a changing "meta" or didn't spend to keep up, why should the devs change the whole function of the game for you?
Interesting theorycrafting discussion. But none of it really changes the fundamentals, that damage is too high relative to armor and health (and if you doubt how useless armor is, try hitting before and after an advantage buff) and speed is WAY too important for a turn-based game.
Arena shouldn't keep the same people in the same ranks everyday. If you failed to see a changing "meta" or didn't spend to keep up, why should the devs change the whole function of the game for you?
Players who spend (again, nothing wrong with that) can adapt quickly to the changing meta, but many F2P can't. If my math serves me right, it takes 132 days (without any energy refill) to farm Poe from the Cantina Shipment to get from zero to a 7-star. I can reduce that leadtime by half if i invest 100 crystals everyday (6.6k crystals in total!) - which is still 2+ months. How long has Poe been out? In my server, I see plenty of what I think is a 6/7* Poe (and 6/7* Leia/FOTP).
I don't ever recall asking for a nerf or changing things for me. At least I started from Day 1, meaning I had more time to grind for heroes than many other F2P players who started later. I have a 20k+ team that works brilliantly if RNG works to my favour. However, I am also looking for alternatives that F2P players can reasonably field to compete against the norm of P2P teams (Poe/Leia/FOTP) as I am sure I am not the only one. The more I think about this, the more I reach similar conclusions to the likes of Qeltar and EwokRampage.
I have the privilege of being on a very competitive server. Players like Pilot, Ailan and Cythis (guild and / or chat mates as well) that post on these forums are always pushing the envelope. From reading these forums from the start, the meta on that server has tended to be 2-3 weeks ahead of the general meta information available on the forum. I say that to set up what's been going on in the meta over time.
Currently, FOTP and Poe are all the rage on the forums and nerf bunnies are nipping at their toes ... but these guys have been prominent and dominant in the meta as soon as Poe was released nearly 4 weeks ago. This is really not a recent phenomenon. I had Poe 6* in just a few days after launch as a result of hoarding Cantina shipments. So we've collectively been planning (Cythis, Pilot, A, and me) to go beyond Poe for a few weeks now and I'd like to officially announce that the current Poe era and speed / meter barrier (FOO is in there too) has been busted at a high rate in the P2P segment. This was done WITHOUT the use of Poe OR FOTP.
The build is simple in it's premise, but took some faith given the lack of health and dependency on early killing. Toons that can be used:
Jinn
Leia
Poggle
Rey
Dooku
Sid (leader)
This was tested against various TIE / Poe team compositions (always including Poe/Tie though) involving toons like Jinn, Old Ben, Leia, TIE, Poe, Phasma, Lumi, Poggle, Sid....the top build compositions you've been reading about recently.
Poggle and Leia are somewhat interchangeable here - both work well. Poggle is better to leave in the D slot since his special actually does something unlike Leia's stealth in rd 1.
Really here you have multiple toons that are faster than Poe and can effectively kill him before he moves. Dooku kind of makes a big return here as his Jedi stun on an opposing Lumi / Ben / Jinn can be huge. Even without that Jedi stun, having Jinn (he gives offense up on dispel), Leia (crit up chance), or Poggle (offense up) makes the multi-hit point Dooku a pretty deadly toon again.
Sid as the leader is great for the crit % up and crit damage - you're going speedy glass cannons here so you need kills quick. He also does great damage + DOT early in the match to soften toons up. His DoTs on FoTP also count as "hits" that can help remove advantage on FOTP, which is key to reduce his chance to hit multiple times and do less damage.
Rey here is deadly - with 140 speed and the ability to crit >6k on her 2nd ability and >9-11k crit on her third ability early in round 2...she's a killing machine.
Jinn is phenominal with the assist that gives the ally increased damage - he can bring most any toon near death with that skill. Then he's a champ with the dispel (kill FOTP adv, or an opposing poggle O up on FOTP, or taunt or Poe, etc.) and giving the team offense up. Top tier toon for sure. Anyone that says different doesn't know him in depth.
Leia if I use her is just early damage on Poe to kill him quick - Poggle for the O up. I find both to be about equally effective attacking. You trade earlier damage for stronger damage later on. These toons are really fast so they hit pretty early on in rd 2 so Poggle buffing after they move is still strong.
I've even had situations where I didn't kill Poe as he jumped out in the speed turn, he still proc'd the meter reduction and it wasn't a big nerf because of the overall speed of this team. Plus he's so heavily damaged that he's dead asap anyway...which means he can't protect the other toons.
The funny thing is once FOTP doesn't have anyone giving him meter and he doesn't have advantage...he's a really average toon. He gets in one hit in round 1 and then he's dead. His lack of speed becomes very apparent. He really is balanced once you're truly evaluating him among the wider meta - not just the common subset of toons most have built right now. That was most baffling to me really out of this. Just watching him sit there and be an average guy that gets off one hit. He's nothing special at all without the proper team support and setup (this can be said about many toons).
So what does this mean for nerfing TIE / Poe, etc. and other toons? Just means we need to be patient. Patient patient patient. We can't truly evaluate OP / no OP until the game and roster is much more mature. I wouldn't say any of the toons in the build above are OP, but they are just good because they rob the Poe / TIE build of it's main asset: Speed advantage.
Now, currently under testing with good initial results is a F2P version that should be able to take down a Poe + FOTP build at a satisfactory rate. Cythis is currently working on this and it's an impressive composition that he will detail later on in this post.
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!...Almost just as it was getting started on the forums. Lesson here is just be aware that meta moves fast and moves often. Don't overreact to a seemingly OP toon at any give time. Have patience. We are early in the game's existence. NO ONE - repeat - NO ONE knows true end game and has built all possible toon combinations and has the expertise to for certain say something is OP and needs nerfed. This team I reference above as a counter has already lost in PVP - it's far from unbeatable.
Thanks for your time - please feel free to ask any details.
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
This is perfect - this is the exact classic setup that this build I posted above was created to counter. I'll take you through the battle a bit.
1. Dooku moves and stuns Jinn - as a Jedi this is pretty reliable...so Jinn is now stunned.
2. Leia generally goes next - focus fire her on Poe.
3. I now have 3 toons (Jinn, Rey, and Sid) that are fighting in the same initiative round as Poe and 2/3 have slightly higher speed than Poe. This means I generally will get multiple of these toons as options to attack before Poe moves. I use them to focus fire on Poe and kill him early. Rey can do 5-6k on her second attack, Sid can do more than 2k on his aoe, and Jinn can do anywhere from 5-8k+ on his hit + assist. Jinn is key here as if Poe does go before him Jinn can dispel his taunt and give my entire team offense up. Also, on Jinn's dispel he hits for more than 3k.
To summarize the battle, his Jinn is stunned, his leia has done no damage as she's gone stealth, Poe will be dead, and if he has fired his taunt he will very soon die from the Sid / Rey / Jinn combo (remember Leia hit him first as well). To this point, I'll have taken zero damage and I may even have offense up if Jinn dispelled due to Poe taunting first.
His TIE / Phasma are the only ones that do damage in round 1. Meanwhile, his Poe is dead, Jinn is severely wounded because Dooku hit him and Sid hit him with AOE, and even his phasma / leia / TIE are softened from Sid and get hit more from the DoTs when they move.
My next target to start off round 2 is actually Jinn, not Tie. He's pretty squishy so Dooku and / or Leia on their second turns can take him out. He often doesn't even move here. The enemy Leia will finally hit, but without offense up or having crit chance up, she doesn't OHKO generally. So at this point, his Jinn is dead having never hit, his Poe is dead also. I'll then use Rey / Sid / Jinn in the second round to drop bombs on TIE. Another aspect here is Phasma if she gives everyone adv. I can then use Jinn dispel early round 2 and give me entire team offense up. Under those conditions, Rey will do >10k damage and that's what I wait to set up for TIE and drop him with...in combination with Sid / Jinn. Majority of the time TIE never gets a 2nd hit off. Then it's just Leia sitting there in stealth and Phasma who can't do much damage.
So here's the summary of the enemy actions:
Jinn: never moved - stunned and killed
Poe: likely never moved - may get taunt and then is immediately killed - never attacks
Leia: stealth in round 1, one hit in round 2, may get 2nd hit in round 3 if she's not been killed by then
TIE: hit at the end of round 1 after all my toons have gone, dead in round 2
Phasma: gets off her speed down and advance and may get third hit as well, but her damage is minimal
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Eh, thanks for the detailed explanation ...but the only issue with your suggestion is that most of the heroes mentioned are non-farmable (Leia and QGJ) or technically farmable, but take forever to farm (Dooku and Rey). If a player can field this kind of line-up, then sure, Poe/FOTP teams are addressable.
But most can't.
I started the game from Day 1 of the global launch, have a 20k+ team and compete in the top 20 of what believe is a mature server, but also increasingly struggle to remain relevant with more Poe/Leia/FOTP teams entering the top. It seems no strategy can overcome the fundamental gap (even if the power ratings are similar) or the lack of a deep bench.
Not complaining, but just looking for some team comps that a F2P player can put together relatively quickly/easily. Telling me that I need a QGJ is well... I wish I could have him too. As I said, I can still compete and defeat Poe/Leia/FOTP teams - but only with an awful lot of luck coming to my way.
That's pretty much what Cythis laid out with the F2P / farmable version. it's not as high a %, but honestly for a game like this winning more than not with a F2P team against a high level / meta P2P squad is pretty good. Other games that general matchup can be pretty lopsided.
FTP Version: Sid, Dooku, Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86
Sid has already been explained so here is the synergy with Poggle, Geo Soldier and IG-86.
I will add Dooku's main goal is get a stun on a Jedi preferable Ben or GQJ, however with a Poggle buff he doesn't hit like a wet noodle. I've seen 3-4k x2 with his counter. That's with a 6* max ability Dooku, plus if he gets called to assist from either Geo S or IG 86 he get and additional damage multiple.
Poggle, Speed 136, gives a team offensive up, speed up to droids and comes with an ability block on his basic.
Geonosian Soldier, Speed 134, has an assist attack that if it calls another Geonosian gets increased damage. His unique give Geonosians increased crit chance and he gets 30% to his turn meter when scoring a crit hit. If you ever wondered why he jumps out of turn this is why.
Geo's special also has a 2 turn cool down so it often available twice in a match. Finally I must mention his basic crits for 4-5k (with Poggle buff) and with his unique he crits a lot.
Last is IG-86 why 86 over 88? He just has a better health pool. His special at max level with a Poggle buff will do some massive damage and gets and assist, he also becomes faster than FoTp after he received the poggle speeds buff.
This is not the be all end all FTP build again our objective was just to show that meter builds and FoTp can be beat. It's gives you good speed, stuns, ability blocks, dots, buffs, extra attacks, AOE and high single target dps.
I am sorry, but how is this team comp an effective counter to a Poe/FOTP team?
Most Poe/FOTP teams that I come across have Poe, FOTP, Leia and two out of Phasma/Sid/Lumi/QGJ (and maybe Kylo).
Let's assume a team of Phasma (L), Poe, FOTP, Leia and QGJ (which I find as the most lethal setup). The way how I see the match pans out is,
1. I try to stun Poe with Dooku because he poses as the biggest threat with his taunt/expose/turn meter manipulation. If the stun works, awesome, but often times I find it fails as Poe has high tenacity. Leia is another likely option to go after
2. Leia goes stealth. Let's assume Phasma's assist bonus did not kick in
3. I attack the opponent using Sid - whether it is the AOE or single target attack, doesn't really matter
4. Poe uses taunt. Again, no assist for the sake of argument, but some of my squad loses turn meter
5. Long story short, game over. QGJ attacks with assist and if the assist comes from Leia or FOTP, one of my heroes is gone. Phasma uses AOE slow and FOTP uses his attack which takes out another hero. My Poggle, Genosian Soldier and/or IG-86 didn't even get a chance to act. Even if they did get a turn and take out Poe, Leia will strike with her bugged 3/4 hits early in Round 2. You are probably down to 3,4 heroes by early Round 2 with little chance to turn the tide unless you suddenly get extremely lucky
My point is unless Poe is neutralised by Dooku (which often fails than it happens), my heavy hitters will probably not get a chance to hit. What am I missing here?
Short answer you need to stun QGJ which gives this build turn 6 advatage so GS gets a shot at FoTp.
I did state it's not the end all be all but has good odds to counter. It was tested over 10 matches and won 6/10. If you want 100% you have to pay.
Right. I know Poggle could possibly act before Poe, but so do GS/IG-86??? Because even if they do and take out Poe or FOTP, Poe and/or Phasma will slow down the team and Leia will be doing her usual "unusual" stuffs. I always considered Poe as the bigger threat than QGJ. Hmmm...
I think we all know even a P2P team guarantees nothing. :P
But thanks for sharing this team comp. Something to consider.
Gs and Poggle will often go before Poe, but RNG is rough sometimes. I usually burn FoTp, Poe, QGJ, Phasma, Leia, Leia is usually still in stealth or just has come out by the time phasma is going down. If GS proc 86 it's usually fotps death and 86 can one shot a weaken Poe.
Also remember AI Phasma almost always uses speed down first and it gives Poggle a chance to block the meter up on his next turn if alive
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Jinn is not stunned 90% of chance. If it's not resisted, it's 90% of chances. Is that 60% chance? I don't keep track but 60% is more accurate. His Leia can one shot you Jinn. Maybe 50% of chances she shots 4x. Now about 60% * 50% = 30% your battles go as planned. Poe has an important chance of warding of effects. Pessimistic could be 35%? Then you plan happens 30% * 65% of times, or 1 in 5. So 1 in 5 you have real danger of losing. Even If it's 1/2, you just have a dream team, to maybe win 50% of chances against a defending party. And only with a dream team.
I obvioulsy don't have the chars tontry this. But if you do and find you can reliably win **** setup above, that's great news. Only actual testing will say...but diesn't look like the setup mentioned is now broken, as if you defend with your team, and that setup attacks, you are very likely to lose, and when you attack, even if enemy on defense, you depend on quite some luck.
Great read and this is where players like me are doomed to fail lol
I play to have fun and for me its more fun to compete at a decent lvl and avoid "super synergetic top builds" and use the toon si enjoy using even tho they are not the best, not the rite counter, etc.
For a universal build thats extreemly farmable and pretty fun for me to use i have:
7* lumi leader
7* sidious leader
(I switch it up)
7* kylo
6* phasma
5* ventress/6* dooku/5* daka/4*poggle
(Dont really know what direction i wanna go for the 5th yet)
For me, i couldnt drop away a sweet lookin toon like kylo or sidious to use a geonosian soldier no matter how good he is hahahahaha
Again, great post and great read, lots an lots of great info here.
Well done!!!
TL;DR: The reign of Poe and FOTP is officially over!!!
...until next patch when Poe breaks 143 speed and takes turns before all guys mentioned as being faster than him right now.
Could be correct if he goes that speed and no other changes happen. We can both project uncertain future events and guess...but this is the here and now.
I love that quote....but this is the here and now! Spoken like a true awesome tester. Great thread!!
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Jinn is not stunned 90% of chance. If it's not resisted, it's 90% of chances. Is that 60% chance? I don't keep track but 60% is more accurate. His Leia can one shot you Jinn. Maybe 50% of chances she shots 4x. Now about 60% * 50% = 30% your battles go as planned. Poe has an important chance of warding of effects. Pessimistic could be 35%? Then you plan happens 30% * 65% of times, or 1 in 5. So 1 in 5 you have real danger of losing. Even If it's 1/2, you just have a dream team, to maybe win 50% of chances against a defending party. And only with a dream team.
I obvioulsy don't have the chars tontry this. But if you do and find you can reliably win **** setup above, that's great news. Only actual testing will say...but diesn't look like the setup mentioned is now broken, as if you defend with your team, and that setup attacks, you are very likely to lose, and when you attack, even if enemy on defense, you depend on quite some luck.
This was already tested for a few days by me and Cythis as well - it's not a theory. I'm getting 75%+ win rates vs. this setup. Dooku I find stuns Jinn around 75+% of the time - it's pretty reliable. Even if he doesn't I can still get a win here, but it's just not as certain - it's a bit more like 50/50 at that point. On Leia - remember that in round 1 nearly 100% of the time she goes stealth - so she can't one shot me. Also, since she didn't fire and no one else is giving offense up, she doesn't one shot anyone even when she does move in round 2. I know it's reported that she does 3+ hits all the time, but I just don't see that. Also, if the hits are not crits and she doesn't have offense up they aren't devastating blows.
Keep in mind the damage differential in round 1 here. Jinn is generally stunned. Leia never attacks as she goes stealth. Poe never attacks as either he'd dead or he taunts and then immediately dies. That leaves Tie and Phasma ... Phasma has minor damage. That means in round 1 I'm dropping 5 shots on this team and they get in one good shot on me...the hit from TIE. Round 2 remember that I have a really fast team, so I'll generally have initiative over his remaining Phasma / TIE / Jinn. So it's really not luck much at all, just a big hit / damage differential throughout the duration of the match.
I've just had the "fun experience" of attempting to deal with a Phasma/Poe team. I will stand by all of my earlier comments that he is broken and this combo is even more broken.
There is nothing fun about starting a game and watching the enemy get 8 of the first 9 turns while you stand by and watch your entire team get wrecked.
I don't care if there's some obscure $2000 team that can counter this. It needs to be fixed.
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Jinn is not stunned 90% of chance. If it's not resisted, it's 90% of chances. Is that 60% chance? I don't keep track but 60% is more accurate. His Leia can one shot you Jinn. Maybe 50% of chances she shots 4x. Now about 60% * 50% = 30% your battles go as planned. Poe has an important chance of warding of effects. Pessimistic could be 35%? Then you plan happens 30% * 65% of times, or 1 in 5. So 1 in 5 you have real danger of losing. Even If it's 1/2, you just have a dream team, to maybe win 50% of chances against a defending party. And only with a dream team.
I obvioulsy don't have the chars tontry this. But if you do and find you can reliably win **** setup above, that's great news. Only actual testing will say...but diesn't look like the setup mentioned is now broken, as if you defend with your team, and that setup attacks, you are very likely to lose, and when you attack, even if enemy on defense, you depend on quite some luck.
This was already tested for a few days by me and Cythis as well - it's not a theory. I'm getting 75%+ win rates vs. this setup. Dooku I find stuns Jinn around 75+% of the time - it's pretty reliable. Even if he doesn't I can still get a win here, but it's just not as certain - it's a bit more like 50/50 at that point. On Leia - remember that in round 1 nearly 100% of the time she goes stealth - so she can't one shot me. Also, since she didn't fire and no one else is giving offense up, she doesn't one shot anyone even when she does move in round 2. I know it's reported that she does 3+ hits all the time, but I just don't see that. Also, if the hits are not crits and she doesn't have offense up they aren't devastating blows.
Keep in mind the damage differential in round 1 here. Jinn is generally stunned. Leia never attacks as she goes stealth. Poe never attacks as either he'd dead or he taunts and then immediately dies. That leaves Tie and Phasma ... Phasma has minor damage. That means in round 1 I'm dropping 5 shots on this team and they get in one good shot on me...the hit from TIE. Round 2 remember that I have a really fast team, so I'll generally have initiative over his remaining Phasma / TIE / Jinn. So it's really not luck much at all, just a big hit / damage differential throughout the duration of the match.
Makes sense. On offense. If you defend it's different but we both this (although I know much less lol). Hope they don't change Leia to attack. She stealth's mist of the time and versus these teams she should open fire immediately.
Replies
Well I just fought a team with a high-star Fives and I did what everyone else says: ignored him and saved him for last. He didn't do much. It appears that Fives is another character that is much more useful on offense than defense. He's very slow and didn't impact the game very much. I may have to rethink 7*ing him.
Poe may be a necessity with 88...I just tried him at 5*, and three of the Five attempts we was taken out before a shot by the ai
Well, reign is over, now FOTP reports to Poe, Phasma AND Leia. THE PERSON #1 in my server stays there, even in spite of builds with Rey and Poogle day in and day out. He reigns unchallenged.
Here (this was #1 today, yesterday and the day before). Note my team isn't designed fortio 5. Sometimes I spot an easy enemy and just jump there temporarily. In this server the top 100 are all 7* level 60.
Poggle
Poe
Leia
FOTP
Rey
Take out Poggle add QGJ, Poe lead. Good stuff we have a top player running that.
Looks like bench depth becomes more important the further into the game you go so have decided I should try to build out the character deck instead of grinding my A-team to 7*
Wonder when we'll start to see some new healing/support abilities given the really powerful healers tend to be Jedi (maybe FOO could have a 'Call Reinforcements' ability?
I, too, leave him for last, but it's annoying to have him Slow your team piece by piece as combat slogs forward. I've never wanted a 5s myself, but I can see what he brings to the table.
His value is huge on offense, many times enemy fotp etc hit him over anyone else it's a huge advantage
With the recently updated AI, I find that he is frequently targeted first, and once damaged, he gets all the focus. I'm finding he gets killed within one or two rounds unless healed.
Good for arena battles when you can squeeze a few good attacks from him, and not worried about 1,2, or 3 stars. But for GW and most other 3 stage battles, he really needs to be backed by more than one healer.
So, he hasn't been nerfed, directly, but the revised AI makes him less effective.
Hey Tytus, had no idea that was you
I am sorry, but how is this team comp an effective counter to a Poe/FOTP team?
Most Poe/FOTP teams that I come across have Poe, FOTP, Leia and two out of Phasma/Sid/Lumi/QGJ (and maybe Kylo).
Let's assume a team of Phasma (L), Poe, FOTP, Leia and QGJ (which I find as the most lethal setup). The way how I see the match pans out is,
1. I try to stun Poe with Dooku because he poses as the biggest threat with his taunt/expose/turn meter manipulation. If the stun works, awesome, but often times I find it fails as Poe has high tenacity. Leia is another likely option to go after
2. Leia goes stealth. Let's assume Phasma's assist bonus did not kick in
3. I attack the opponent using Sid - whether it is the AOE or single target attack, doesn't really matter
4. Poe uses taunt. Again, no assist for the sake of argument, but some of my squad loses turn meter
5. Long story short, game over. QGJ attacks with assist and if the assist comes from Leia or FOTP, one of my heroes is gone. Phasma uses AOE slow and FOTP uses his attack which takes out another hero. My Poggle, Genosian Soldier and/or IG-86 didn't even get a chance to act. Even if they did get a turn and take out Poe, Leia will strike with her bugged 3/4 hits early in Round 2. You are probably down to 3,4 heroes by early Round 2 with little chance to turn the tide unless you suddenly get extremely lucky
My point is unless Poe is neutralised by Dooku (which often fails than it happens), my heavy hitters will probably not get a chance to hit. What am I missing here?
Nice to meet you man - you have some great teams - thanks for dropping a line.
This is perfect - this is the exact classic setup that this build I posted above was created to counter. I'll take you through the battle a bit.
1. Dooku moves and stuns Jinn - as a Jedi this is pretty reliable...so Jinn is now stunned.
2. Leia generally goes next - focus fire her on Poe.
3. I now have 3 toons (Jinn, Rey, and Sid) that are fighting in the same initiative round as Poe and 2/3 have slightly higher speed than Poe. This means I generally will get multiple of these toons as options to attack before Poe moves. I use them to focus fire on Poe and kill him early. Rey can do 5-6k on her second attack, Sid can do more than 2k on his aoe, and Jinn can do anywhere from 5-8k+ on his hit + assist. Jinn is key here as if Poe does go before him Jinn can dispel his taunt and give my entire team offense up. Also, on Jinn's dispel he hits for more than 3k.
To summarize the battle, his Jinn is stunned, his leia has done no damage as she's gone stealth, Poe will be dead, and if he has fired his taunt he will very soon die from the Sid / Rey / Jinn combo (remember Leia hit him first as well). To this point, I'll have taken zero damage and I may even have offense up if Jinn dispelled due to Poe taunting first.
His TIE / Phasma are the only ones that do damage in round 1. Meanwhile, his Poe is dead, Jinn is severely wounded because Dooku hit him and Sid hit him with AOE, and even his phasma / leia / TIE are softened from Sid and get hit more from the DoTs when they move.
My next target to start off round 2 is actually Jinn, not Tie. He's pretty squishy so Dooku and / or Leia on their second turns can take him out. He often doesn't even move here. The enemy Leia will finally hit, but without offense up or having crit chance up, she doesn't OHKO generally. So at this point, his Jinn is dead having never hit, his Poe is dead also. I'll then use Rey / Sid / Jinn in the second round to drop bombs on TIE. Another aspect here is Phasma if she gives everyone adv. I can then use Jinn dispel early round 2 and give me entire team offense up. Under those conditions, Rey will do >10k damage and that's what I wait to set up for TIE and drop him with...in combination with Sid / Jinn. Majority of the time TIE never gets a 2nd hit off. Then it's just Leia sitting there in stealth and Phasma who can't do much damage.
So here's the summary of the enemy actions:
Jinn: never moved - stunned and killed
Poe: likely never moved - may get taunt and then is immediately killed - never attacks
Leia: stealth in round 1, one hit in round 2, may get 2nd hit in round 3 if she's not been killed by then
TIE: hit at the end of round 1 after all my toons have gone, dead in round 2
Phasma: gets off her speed down and advance and may get third hit as well, but her damage is minimal
This approach neutralizes to a degree the Phasma multi-hit leader because Jinn never moves, Poe dies - even if he does proc taunt at most I'm just getting hit with the ally call, not 2 actual hits - same for leia. I just get in a lot more total hits early on and over the course of the battle.
Short answer you need to stun QGJ which gives this build turn 2 advantage so GS gets a shot at FoTp.
I did state it's not the end all be all but has good odds to counter. It was tested over 10 matches and won 6/10. If you want 100% you have to pay.
Eh, thanks for the detailed explanation ...but the only issue with your suggestion is that most of the heroes mentioned are non-farmable (Leia and QGJ) or technically farmable, but take forever to farm (Dooku and Rey). If a player can field this kind of line-up, then sure, Poe/FOTP teams are addressable.
But most can't.
I started the game from Day 1 of the global launch, have a 20k+ team and compete in the top 20 of what believe is a mature server, but also increasingly struggle to remain relevant with more Poe/Leia/FOTP teams entering the top. It seems no strategy can overcome the fundamental gap (even if the power ratings are similar) or the lack of a deep bench.
Not complaining, but just looking for some team comps that a F2P player can put together relatively quickly/easily. Telling me that I need a QGJ is well... I wish I could have him too.
Wait till people start catching up and using Rey couple build on our server that you just can't defend against.
Players who spend (again, nothing wrong with that) can adapt quickly to the changing meta, but many F2P can't. If my math serves me right, it takes 132 days (without any energy refill) to farm Poe from the Cantina Shipment to get from zero to a 7-star. I can reduce that leadtime by half if i invest 100 crystals everyday (6.6k crystals in total!) - which is still 2+ months. How long has Poe been out? In my server, I see plenty of what I think is a 6/7* Poe (and 6/7* Leia/FOTP).
I don't ever recall asking for a nerf or changing things for me. At least I started from Day 1, meaning I had more time to grind for heroes than many other F2P players who started later. I have a 20k+ team that works brilliantly if RNG works to my favour. However, I am also looking for alternatives that F2P players can reasonably field to compete against the norm of P2P teams (Poe/Leia/FOTP) as I am sure I am not the only one. The more I think about this, the more I reach similar conclusions to the likes of Qeltar and EwokRampage.
That's pretty much what Cythis laid out with the F2P / farmable version. it's not as high a %, but honestly for a game like this winning more than not with a F2P team against a high level / meta P2P squad is pretty good. Other games that general matchup can be pretty lopsided.
Right. I know Poggle could possibly act before Poe, but so do GS/IG-86??? Because even if they do and take out Poe or FOTP, Poe and/or Phasma will slow down the team and Leia will be doing her usual "unusual" stuffs. I always considered Poe as the bigger threat than QGJ. Hmmm...
I think we all know even a P2P team guarantees nothing. :P
But thanks for sharing this team comp. Something to consider.
Also remember AI Phasma almost always uses speed down first and it gives Poggle a chance to block the meter up on his next turn if alive
Jinn is not stunned 90% of chance. If it's not resisted, it's 90% of chances. Is that 60% chance? I don't keep track but 60% is more accurate. His Leia can one shot you Jinn. Maybe 50% of chances she shots 4x. Now about 60% * 50% = 30% your battles go as planned. Poe has an important chance of warding of effects. Pessimistic could be 35%? Then you plan happens 30% * 65% of times, or 1 in 5. So 1 in 5 you have real danger of losing. Even If it's 1/2, you just have a dream team, to maybe win 50% of chances against a defending party. And only with a dream team.
I obvioulsy don't have the chars tontry this. But if you do and find you can reliably win **** setup above, that's great news. Only actual testing will say...but diesn't look like the setup mentioned is now broken, as if you defend with your team, and that setup attacks, you are very likely to lose, and when you attack, even if enemy on defense, you depend on quite some luck.
I play to have fun and for me its more fun to compete at a decent lvl and avoid "super synergetic top builds" and use the toon si enjoy using even tho they are not the best, not the rite counter, etc.
For a universal build thats extreemly farmable and pretty fun for me to use i have:
7* lumi leader
7* sidious leader
(I switch it up)
7* kylo
6* phasma
5* ventress/6* dooku/5* daka/4*poggle
(Dont really know what direction i wanna go for the 5th yet)
For me, i couldnt drop away a sweet lookin toon like kylo or sidious to use a geonosian soldier no matter how good he is hahahahaha
Again, great post and great read, lots an lots of great info here.
Well done!!!
I love that quote....but this is the here and now! Spoken like a true awesome tester. Great thread!!
This was already tested for a few days by me and Cythis as well - it's not a theory. I'm getting 75%+ win rates vs. this setup. Dooku I find stuns Jinn around 75+% of the time - it's pretty reliable. Even if he doesn't I can still get a win here, but it's just not as certain - it's a bit more like 50/50 at that point. On Leia - remember that in round 1 nearly 100% of the time she goes stealth - so she can't one shot me. Also, since she didn't fire and no one else is giving offense up, she doesn't one shot anyone even when she does move in round 2. I know it's reported that she does 3+ hits all the time, but I just don't see that. Also, if the hits are not crits and she doesn't have offense up they aren't devastating blows.
Keep in mind the damage differential in round 1 here. Jinn is generally stunned. Leia never attacks as she goes stealth. Poe never attacks as either he'd dead or he taunts and then immediately dies. That leaves Tie and Phasma ... Phasma has minor damage. That means in round 1 I'm dropping 5 shots on this team and they get in one good shot on me...the hit from TIE. Round 2 remember that I have a really fast team, so I'll generally have initiative over his remaining Phasma / TIE / Jinn. So it's really not luck much at all, just a big hit / damage differential throughout the duration of the match.
There is nothing fun about starting a game and watching the enemy get 8 of the first 9 turns while you stand by and watch your entire team get wrecked.
I don't care if there's some obscure $2000 team that can counter this. It needs to be fixed.
Makes sense. On offense. If you defend it's different but we both this (although I know much less lol). Hope they don't change Leia to attack. She stealth's mist of the time and versus these teams she should open fire immediately.