Chaze, a reasonable look at the most overtuned duo in game.

Prev134567
Jedi_Reach_
1337 posts Member
edited May 2017
Edit: For a TLDR - Chaze's true inbalance stems from its ease of play for the tremendous power. Not the counters.

Edit 2: A solid post.
Wholf wrote: »
They are op because the fundamental key of balance is 'jack of trades, master of none. Master of a trade - easy to counter.'

Edit 3: Another solid post.
Waez wrote: »
Just going to c/p a comment I wrote yesterday.
It's about calling a team balanced when it can be beaten, which is a very weird view on game balance.

Argument: X team can be beaten so it's fine to leave it as it is. If a team can be beaten, then it's balanced.

Reality: X team can ONLY be beaten by very specific characters. Any team that doesn't include these characters can't be used in Arena. The whole game suffers from a lack of diversity.

Zaul could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team that relies on Assists/TM gain/Counter

Chaze could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no mass/regular dispell.

ZVader could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team with no cleanse.

Wiggs could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without a pre-taunter.

Evasion teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any player that had poor RNG.

Poe teams could be beaten, but still pushed out of the meta any team without Poe.

Barris/healing teams could be beaten but still pushed out of the meta any team without Sidious.

CAN BE BEATEN =/= BALANCED

If you think so, you have very poor knowledge in game design, game balance, and poor basic logic.

Ironically, since Baze and Chirrut are good at
- Inflicting debuffs and dispelling buffs on the enemy team
- Cleansing debuffs and giving buffs to your team

The only counter to Chaze is... Chaze.



They don't obey the rules and are masters of all. They tank, they heal, they buff they rebuff they deal huge damage and so on and so fourth. [/quote]


Even before R2, Zaul has had its counter - Rex.

What precisely is the counter for Chaze exactly?

Certainly you're not thinking of gimmicky GSpy, are you?

Let's be honest. The real issue with Chaze is that it is far too fool proof. Players using these two don't have to think much to use them because they are way too easy for the extremely high payoff.

Let's take that a step further.

Chaze is universal. You can plug these two into practically any team, and heck, the best team in the game uses, well, you guessed it - Chaze. There are multiple answers for Zaul. Only (Boba) and to a fair extent, DN, that can compete with Chaze, and even then it's STILL a battle versus them whereas Chaze doesn't have to do much against you.

That's the real issue.

It's just too easy. It needs a tone down. My suggestion would be to either drastically reduce their damage output, remove Baze's pre-taunt, or set an ICD between his taunts when Chirrut loses health. Another way to handle them would be to reduce the amount of healing received from the HoTs.

PS: Making another overpowered character (or duo, or comp) to fix Chaze is not the answer.
Post edited by Jedi_Reach_ on

Replies

  • Crazylazyguy
    1772 posts Member
    B2 - cleanse all of their annoying buffs.
    Boba - apply ability block so they can't dispel anything.
    The rest of the team is up to you.
  • leef
    13168 posts Member
    #nerf boba
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Antares
    686 posts Member
    Question: Has ever in the history if this game something been nerfed other than packs (and droprates maybe)? As fas as I know: No, and I think it will never happen.
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    B2 - cleanse all of their annoying buffs.
    Boba - apply ability block so they can't dispel anything.
    The rest of the team is up to you.

    Naming single toons that can counter is a relevant argument to why they aren't OP

    Because you can name single toons for counters to anything in this game. You have to look further into the issue than just the single toons that can counter it.

    For example how does that one toon effect the rest of your team composition? Or how much use those toons will have outside of their specific purpose.

    @OP I agree, chaze is the only thing I have called OP in this game.

    There shouldn't be any 2 toons that you can almost literally use any other set of top toons and make a team with little effort.

    Lesson one is you don't create toons that have multi purpose that perform all those purposes as good or better than specific toons. For example the health equalize should heal at a much lower rate compared to those toons that only have a single AOE heal and not a whole team of abilities wrapped up in a package
  • slickdealer
    1375 posts Member
    Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.
  • Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    I've been playing this game since it came out almost every team in the top 50 has him.
  • Jedi_Reach_
    1337 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.
    Excuse me?
    Antares wrote: »
    Question: Has ever in the history if this game something been nerfed other than packs (and droprates maybe)? As fas as I know: No, and I think it will never happen.
    That isn't exactly a good model. It's like building on rotten wood.

    xReDeMpx wrote: »
    B2 - cleanse all of their annoying buffs.
    Boba - apply ability block so they can't dispel anything.
    The rest of the team is up to you.

    Naming single toons that can counter is a relevant argument to why they aren't OP

    Because you can name single toons for counters to anything in this game. You have to look further into the issue than just the single toons that can counter it.

    For example how does that one toon effect the rest of your team composition? Or how much use those toons will have outside of their specific purpose.

    @OP I agree, chaze is the only thing I have called OP in this game.

    There shouldn't be any 2 toons that you can almost literally use any other set of top toons and make a team with little effort.

    Lesson one is you don't create toons that have multi purpose that perform all those purposes as good or better than specific toons. For example the health equalize should heal at a much lower rate compared to those toons that only have a single AOE heal and not a whole team of abilities wrapped up in a package
    Pretty much this. Every character in the game has their individual counters. The real issue with Chaze is how easy it is for the payoff.
  • Counter to Chaze: Ability Block, Stun, Shock, Healing Immunity. Specific Toons: Fett, B2, DN, EP, Dooku, Kylo, Savage. All of these can be used to effectively counter Chaze. But he can cleanse you say. Yep, Chirrut can cleanse, but it is a 4 turn cooldown. So multiple counters to Chaze, single counter to zMaul.. and the real counter was coupling Rex with another cleanser, so you need two toons to counter one.

    Chirrut can hit hard, but his strikes decrease as you lose members. Get him one on one and he hits like a wet noodle.

    There aren't many counters to zMaul because of his leadership kit. You need to have good RNG and a series of cleansers. Bad RNG on an AoE attack will give an entire team enough TM to outpace you. You can develop a strategy against Chirrut and Baze that is effective, zMaul, it's a roll of the dice.

    Many toons are universal. Rex, Kenobi, DN for example, so I fail to see the 'you can use them with anyone argument'.

    I don't see any reason to 'tone them down', they are on par with the rest of the recently released toons. They are good and you need to think when you fight against them, but they are beatable.

    Full disclosure: I have been running Chaze for 2 weeks after a long grind (Got Baze when he was in the **** and ground out Chirrut in Fleet and Store by saving crystals). With that said, prior to using Chaze, I used to actively fight teams with Chaze with both a zVader and Fett lead and they were easy wins. I was actually hesitant to put them into the arena because of that.

    Do or Do not.

    DarthBarron (Kevin, aka KevWalker)
  • Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    +1
    Do or Do not.

    DarthBarron (Kevin, aka KevWalker)
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Antares wrote: »
    Question: Has ever in the history if this game something been nerfed other than packs (and droprates maybe)? As fas as I know: No, and I think it will never happen.

    Yes, there have been nerfs long ago.
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
    Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    lmao, wait what?
  • JacenRoe
    2859 posts Member
    Their 'easy payoff' is also their weakness. More buffs on them mean bigger hits for Boba. I 40-70k crits are a common thing for me when I attack them.

    Also WAY before I got Kenobi I was wrecking them with STHan. I purposely attacked Baze over and over. He countered with his love taps, and I took 5 turns before the other team did much of anything.

    The thing is that there are other toons on their level that beat them easily. I beat them easily, and don't use Chaze to do it. I just want to see more faction passes to bring more toons to an equal level.

    You mentioned GSpy. His 'gimmick' is a direct counter that does a devastating amount of damage to them more so than to other toons. But GSpy doesn't have enough other utility, or a faction with good enough synergy for it to be worth it to farm him. So just strengthen synergy for Geonosians, and/or Seperatists. Now you have another option to beat them.

    Boba is fantastic, and destroys them so easily it's comical. But needs a Bounty Hunter faction pass to accentuate what he does, and give us a reason to run the other HORRIBLE BH toons with him.

    In short, they aren't breaking the game. They can be beaten easily now. Playing with other toons of equal power is fun. We just need more options of equal power toons with targeted abilities that are way stronger against them that against other teams/toons but have their own weaknesses to be exploited by still other toons. And faction passes to get most everyone to a similar level is the stated plan of the devs. I'd get used to that idea.
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    Apparently this guy is not high in his arena to understand mullato
  • Nightlores
    1604 posts Member
    A 3* Darth Nihilus is enough to end a 7* baze and chirrut. I really dont see a point to this thread while everyone has DN 3*...
  • M9silent
    821 posts Member
    @Antares Yes, there have been nerfs before. Bariss was nerfed at the beginning of the game for example, in 2015.

    She went from goddess to garbage for a long time.
  • JRCPKT99
    292 posts Member
    Antares wrote: »
    Question: Has ever in the history if this game something been nerfed other than packs (and droprates maybe)? As fas as I know: No, and I think it will never happen.

    Has something ever been nerfed in this game?

    Bariss, yoda, zbariss...

    Mods...

    Lots has been nerfed.
  • JRCPKT99
    292 posts Member
    Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    November 2015 shard here. This statement is incorrect.

    I don't run chaze but 25-50% of top ten run chaze.

    I find that boba or DN lead counter chaze well.
  • JRCPKT99 wrote: »
    Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    November 2015 shard here. This statement is incorrect.

    I don't run chaze but 25-50% of top ten run chaze.

    I find that boba or DN lead counter chaze well.

    Thanks for confirming that he isn't in the majority of teams in the top 10 on a mature Shard. Willing to bet Kenobi and DN are far more prevalent
    Do or Do not.

    DarthBarron (Kevin, aka KevWalker)
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    A 3* nihilus can and will not end a full 7* team of rex lead, chaze, gk, and nihilus, try it mate if you do not have chaze when facing this team? You will die so easily
  • Crazylazyguy
    1772 posts Member
    @xReDeMpx
    OP said that poor Zaul can be countered by Rex. So I did the same thing and told him which toons can stop Chaze. There are different comps to counter them and quite a few people have given suggestions in the thread. You can't expect a meta shift every month.
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Think about what happens when you run a 7* gk and 7* nihilus without chaze?

    Chaze is the bulk of op toons who synergize so well they can take on armies if you put in DN and gk
  • Nightlores
    1604 posts Member
    SpendsAlot wrote: »
    A 3* nihilus can and will not end a full 7* team of rex lead, chaze, gk, and nihilus, try it mate if you do not have chaze when facing this team? You will die so easily

    off course you have 4 other toons next to DN....
  • Antares
    686 posts Member
    JRCPKT99 wrote: »
    Antares wrote: »
    Question: Has ever in the history if this game something been nerfed other than packs (and droprates maybe)? As fas as I know: No, and I think it will never happen.

    Has something ever been nerfed in this game?

    Bariss, yoda, zbariss...

    Mods...

    Lots has been nerfed.

    zBarriss was a bug. What happened to Yoda and normal Barriss?

  • JRCPKT99
    292 posts Member
    JRCPKT99 wrote: »
    Zaul, B2, Boba, DN all counters.

    Chaze isn't that great at the high end of mature shards.

    November 2015 shard here. This statement is incorrect.

    I don't run chaze but 25-50% of top ten run chaze.

    I find that boba or DN lead counter chaze well.

    Thanks for confirming that he isn't in the majority of teams in the top 10 on a mature Shard. Willing to bet Kenobi and DN are far more prevalent

    Actually about half the teams at the top which is about 50 strong players is Rex lead with chaze.
    Other about 35% zaul after that. The rest maybe GK lead or DN. It's very much anyone can beat anyone at the top.

    I honestly don't care who I battle near payout as on offense I can beat anyone yet the other teams can too. I will take top spot at payout and still fall to 20s by the am.
  • leef
    13168 posts Member
    There are multiple answers for Zaul. Only (Boba) and to a fair extent, DN, that can compete with Chaze, and even then it's STILL a battle versus them whereas Chaze doesn't have to do much against you.

    multiple awnsers for maul vs only boba and DN for chaze
    that just isn't true. No matter how you slice it, chaze simply has more than just those 2 counters.
    exaggerating to prove a point is not a "reasonable" look at imo. It happens on both sides of the fence ofcourse.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    Jesus people don't understand.

    You can list indivisible counters all day for any toon.

    But how does bobba impact the overall utility of your team to JUST counter chaze.

    There are other impacts that comes along with plugging in these "counters" to chaze.

    It's not a hard concept to understand.

    Chaze has been meta proof and they will probably continue to be meta proof.

    They take a lot of skill away from building teams when you can take 2 toons that have the skill set of 5 and throw them with the HIGH MAJORITY or any other toon that are arena viable which you can't do that with ANY other toons in the game
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    Chaze alone can solo several aspects of this game with no leaderskills.....they are several units in one
  • xReDeMpx
    1690 posts Member
    @xReDeMpx
    OP said that poor Zaul can be countered by Rex. So I did the same thing and told him which toons can stop Chaze. There are different comps to counter them and quite a few people have given suggestions in the thread. You can't expect a meta shift every month.

    You just aren't understanding.

    I didn't say the meta needs to change every month, hell maul should continue for a bit liger compared to how long rebels had their spot in meta.

    But chaze has been META PROOF they work and function in almost every and any scenario that IS actually present in arena, not formulating all these **** counters that actually no one runs in arena due to throwing off their team for competitive purpose
  • Juex777
    968 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Toons like boba, DN, EP, other toons that shock (too many to name), dispel buffs, too many to name, inflict buff immunity + plus strategy and understanding the mechanics of Chaze (in the right team comps) counter them nicely. There are plenty of threads and YouTube videos on how to do this.

    Sure, this is part of the arguable dynamic of not being able to just play the toons you like best and have them be viable in the top 20 issue that many people feel isn't fair. But Chaze isn't as op as they seem, before you understand how to deal with them. The difficulty in getting the duo feels about right for what they bring to the table.

    What Zaul was bringing to the table for the difficulty in building A Zaul Sith squad was a little insane.

    I understand your frustration, I had it with Chaze as well for quite a while, but adapted and learned how to overcome their synergy. It's part of the game, accept it or hate it that too exceed you have to adopt to the existing and ever expanding synergies and build accordingly.
  • SpendsAlot
    379 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    But see then people build defense teams that counter each other and it comes down to who spent 1,000$ on mods or not? Since nihilus, gk, chaze are viable with 0 leader in the same team against 90%+ of the player base
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