You can beat a no zeta cleanse team with a no zeta counter team which includes boba, b2 , sun fac and DN. No zetas needed for boba or DN
I run Resistance, and do just fine against the triple cleanse. I occasionally get wrecked by bad RNG, like if Baze doesn't get debuffed when Poe taunts, or if GK immediately taunts from RT dispelling Baze combined with Rex and Chirrut not losing TM from Poe's taunt.
Your Boba and DN suggestion is a good one though, and probably the best f2p suggestion for a couple easy drop in changes to the average squad. No top-to-bottom team rework required. The triple cleanse teams just turtle until the DN can Annihilate, they don't have overwhelming damage. With your own Boba and DN you can outrace them on executes.
I would argue that you don't even need B2 and Sun Fac. They would shine there, if you really want to build the perfect counter team, but you could just as easily have GK and Rex and Barriss in there instead. Boba and DN getting insta-kills is the key, any team that can keep those two on their feet will do fine.
B2 and Sun Fac don't shine. And Boba is not a counter as you claim. Does his execute work well against chaze? Sure. Does it always 1-shot one of them. No. Not in practice it doesn't. Also if you are running DN, he will be targeted and killed before he can annihilate anyone. The reason DN is good on other teams is because he is hidden behind GK and Baze.
So what counter is there? You need to hide your Boba and DN behind a Chaze and GK. Well then you might as well run Rex too. The point is there is not a "Counter" to the triple cleanse. Sure there are a few teams that can beat it. Like you said resistance, I can beat it most, not all, times with my first order... With 4 zetas...
What the devs should do is level the potency and the tenacity and fix their interaction. How can a character with let's say 52% potency put a debuff on a character with 80% tenacity? it should not be the case unless they are mutually exclusive
@BradGoodyear like I said, I run Resistance, no personal experience with the DN/Boba thing. However, two of my server mates run Rex, GK, Boba, DN, Kylo, and they can beat any team on our early January '16 server, including a number of tough triple cleanse teams.
When you say DN will get focused if not hidden behind a Chaze, it makes me think that you're talking about when the team is AI controlled on defense. If you're talking about a Boba/DN team getting wrecked while they're on defense, well, /shrug so does my Resistance team.
enacity Up prevents any debuffs from ever having a chance of landing, negating things like Ability Block, Shock, Stun, etc.
If Tenacity Up were to be nerfed into a flat % of tenacity, Ten Down ALSO needs to be nerfed into a flat decrease of tenacity. Ten Up/Down currently mirror and modifies stats by +/- 99900.
What it negates is EVERY debuff team. I'm all good with your suggestio though... just fix tenacity up.
They could keep it as is, but just add aoe cleanse to the best toons in the game - like tenacity is currently - and watch cleanse teams die fast. Triple debuff - Imagine if EP's zeta does enemy buff removal + buff block, new thrawn also has aoe buff removal - one an aoe and one a specific target that also inflicts buff block for 3 rounds ... and run that with DT...add in a zDV zeta on a unique that any time he attacks a rebel he removes a buff and bam....quadruple debuff!!!. Oh...and the debuffs they inflict check AFTER the buff / ten up removal. MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
It should definitely be changed to mirror the effects of tenacity down. Also debuffs always trump buffs except for tenacity up which makes no sense. E.g. offence up/down, speed up/down
Until they fix tenacity so that it's equal to potency then tenacity up has to stay how it is now. As is Tenacity - 50% = potency. Should be when they are equal there is a 50% chance to resist...
Everyone acts like there is no counter to chaze or cleanse teams. If there weren't, I'd be crying for a nerf too. But there are easy counters.
Anyone heard of B2? Boba?
Boba doesnt care about tenacity up or baze's taunt or how many hots are over chirruts head. In fact that only helps him. Bye bye chirrut, which means bye bye baze which means bye bye team.
So why not use a counter team with Zader, boba, B2, sun fac and DN? You've got 3 dispellers, 3 ability blocks and dots that dont go away.
None of these counters triple cleanse. I've tried them all. Chaze can even take a boba to the face with 6 buffs on him and survive.
Good luck getting through all that foresight from R2 and GK.
B2? Even if he lands BUFF IMMUNITY TO THE ENTIRE TEAM- they all just cleanse it away and you just gave them free buffs.
THE ONLY WAY IT WORKS: Ability block x3 on all three toons, never critting to never give them free turns, followed by 3x more ability blocks on all three toons, all of which are countering you the entire time and getting free TM and getting free heal over time effects. Oh did I mentioned they all have tenacity cross builds? Yea, 60% tenacity on each. Oh yea, free tenacity up right after the cleanse. Oh right, GK just turned all your red abilities into buffs.
R2 is on triple cleanse teams now- let's get this straight people.
They could keep it as is, but just add aoe cleanse to the best toons in the game - like tenacity is currently - and watch cleanse teams die fast. Triple debuff - Imagine if EP's zeta does enemy buff removal + buff block, new thrawn also has aoe buff removal - one an aoe and one a specific target that also inflicts buff block for 3 rounds ... and run that with DT...add in a zDV zeta on a unique that any time he attacks a rebel he removes a buff and bam....quadruple debuff!!!. Oh...and the debuffs they inflict check AFTER the buff / ten up removal. MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
No just No Tan up should be kept as is the Dark side of the Force already clouds the arena too much and has ruled the arena since almost forever please just let the good guys have there turn for once.
Everyone acts like there is no counter to chaze or cleanse teams. If there weren't, I'd be crying for a nerf too. But there are easy counters.
Anyone heard of B2? Boba?
Boba doesnt care about tenacity up or baze's taunt or how many hots are over chirruts head. In fact that only helps him. Bye bye chirrut, which means bye bye baze which means bye bye team.
So why not use a counter team with Zader, boba, B2, sun fac and DN? You've got 3 dispellers, 3 ability blocks and dots that dont go away.
None of these counters triple cleanse. I've tried them all. Chaze can even take a boba to the face with 6 buffs on him and survive.
Good luck getting through all that foresight from R2 and GK.
B2? Even if he lands BUFF IMMUNITY TO THE ENTIRE TEAM- they all just cleanse it away and you just gave them free buffs.
THE ONLY WAY IT WORKS: Ability block x3 on all three toons, never critting to never give them free turns, followed by 3x more ability blocks on all three toons, all of which are countering you the entire time and getting free TM and getting free heal over time effects. Oh did I mentioned they all have tenacity cross builds? Yea, 60% tenacity on each. Oh yea, free tenacity up right after the cleanse. Oh right, GK just turned all your red abilities into buffs.
R2 is on triple cleanse teams now- let's get this straight people.
WHAT? I just had my Chirrut Executed with 2 DoTs and 3 HoTs. He had half protection.
They could keep it as is, but just add aoe cleanse to the best toons in the game - like tenacity is currently - and watch cleanse teams die fast. Triple debuff - Imagine if EP's zeta does enemy buff removal + buff block, new thrawn also has aoe buff removal - one an aoe and one a specific target that also inflicts buff block for 3 rounds ... and run that with DT...add in a zDV zeta on a unique that any time he attacks a rebel he removes a buff and bam....quadruple debuff!!!. Oh...and the debuffs they inflict check AFTER the buff / ten up removal. MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah but....a lot of ifs there. Tbh I really don't see that path being taken JSA.
But it will be interesting to see if thrawns kit counters triple cleanse. But is it really necessary? Triple cleanse is already making way for wedge lead.
I m not maxed so I do not understand the zRex or Zaul, etc. but in my level I just remove tenacity up using Ventress, once down Rex (without Z) is squishy he dies fast. Is he inmune to her when Z?
I m not maxed so I do not understand the zRex or Zaul, etc. but in my level I just remove tenacity up using Ventress, once down Rex (without Z) is squishy he dies fast. Is he inmune to her when Z?
No, her dispel works just fine. However, at max level, top end arena shards a lot of people run teams with Rex, kenobi, and Chirrut which makes it near impossible to get debuffs to stick because those teams have three characters who both cleanse and provide tenacity up.
Rather than admit that two of those characters might be overtuned and in need of a nerf, a lot of players have taken to the forums to complain that the tenacity up mechanic itself needs a nerf (which it doesn't)
No the problem is having both 5x Cleanse AND 5x Tenacity up on the same ability on multiple characters on your team.
For example. Yoda gives Tenacity Up. It's causes problems but can be handled. Jedi teams also don't have 2x AOE cleanse, and they don't have a stack of HoT on them.
Yoda Tenacity up causes problems for debuffers, but isn't match ending problem. You can battle back from it. With Chaze/GK/Rex Tenacity up never goes away because multiple people can give it, and they can aoe cleanse between them every turn. But having Rex and Chirrut both 5x cleanse AND 5x tenacity up, along with Chirrut Full heal, how is anyone to overcome perpetual debuff immunity.
And before people start saying, Well... B2, DT... Have you tried those in top 20 Arena? Going out on a limb and thinking you haven't. Some of us have, and it makes no difference. B2 doesn't hit hard. To kill anyone with a stack of HOT you need to basically instakill them or they fully heal. B2 doesn't bring enough firepower to take up a 5th spot.
it's really simple...there's buff immunity, then there should also be debuff immunity...it should not be called tenacity up...and should have a green triangle icon.
tenacity up should be an opposite of tenacity down.
EXACTLY!! This was my point in my post about this!
IMO, Rex's ONLY use other than his leader ability is Tenacity Up. Tenacity Up prevents any debuffs from ever having a chance of landing, negating things like Ability Block, Shock, Stun, etc.
If Tenacity Up were to be nerfed into a flat % of tenacity, Ten Down ALSO needs to be nerfed into a flat decrease of tenacity. Ten Up/Down currently mirror and modifies stats by +/- 99900.
If you want to nerf Tenacity Up to the ground, fine; change Rex/Chirrut/Yoda's buff to "debuff immunity" and give other characters "tenacity up". Please don't cry nerf to something that has existed for more than a year. DN/Sun Fac/Baze/B2 all clear buffs easily enough.
Please don't nerf Rex because your Mob Enforcer, CUP, IG100, Ugnaught and Chewie can't win.
I don't think I have ever read a more blatantly false, un-thought out, and illogical post as this.
IMO, Rex's ONLY use other than his leader ability is Tenacity Up. Tenacity Up prevents any debuffs from ever having a chance of landing, negating things like Ability Block, Shock, Stun, etc.
If Tenacity Up were to be nerfed into a flat % of tenacity, Ten Down ALSO needs to be nerfed into a flat decrease of tenacity. Ten Up/Down currently mirror and modifies stats by +/- 99900.
If you want to nerf Tenacity Up to the ground, fine; change Rex/Chirrut/Yoda's buff to "debuff immunity" and give other characters "tenacity up". Please don't cry nerf to something that has existed for more than a year. DN/Sun Fac/Baze/B2 all clear buffs easily enough.
Please don't nerf Rex because your Mob Enforcer, CUP, IG100, Ugnaught and Chewie can't win.
They could keep it as is, but just add aoe cleanse to the best toons in the game - like tenacity is currently - and watch cleanse teams die fast. Triple debuff - Imagine if EP's zeta does enemy buff removal + buff block, new thrawn also has aoe buff removal - one an aoe and one a specific target that also inflicts buff block for 3 rounds ... and run that with DT...add in a zDV zeta on a unique that any time he attacks a rebel he removes a buff and bam....quadruple debuff!!!. Oh...and the debuffs they inflict check AFTER the buff / ten up removal. MUHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
No just No Tan up should be kept as is the Dark side of the Force already clouds the arena too much and has ruled the arena since almost forever please just let the good guys have there turn for once.
I take it you've never fought a Rebel squad before
I m not maxed so I do not understand the zRex or Zaul, etc. but in my level I just remove tenacity up using Ventress, once down Rex (without Z) is squishy he dies fast. Is he inmune to her when Z?
No, her dispel works just fine. However, at max level, top end arena shards a lot of people run teams with Rex, kenobi, and Chirrut which makes it near impossible to get debuffs to stick because those teams have three characters who both cleanse and provide tenacity up.
Rather than admit that two of those characters might be overtuned and in need of a nerf, a lot of players have taken to the forums to complain that the tenacity up mechanic itself needs a nerf (which it doesn't)
Thanks I get it, the problem is not the mechanic but the combo, thats why nobody argues about Ackbar or Yoda. The real opposite to Rex/Chase's skill would be something like a Ventress' cleanse that also applies buff inmunity at the same time.
I m not maxed so I do not understand the zRex or Zaul, etc. but in my level I just remove tenacity up using Ventress, once down Rex (without Z) is squishy he dies fast. Is he inmune to her when Z?
No, her dispel works just fine. However, at max level, top end arena shards a lot of people run teams with Rex, kenobi, and Chirrut which makes it near impossible to get debuffs to stick because those teams have three characters who both cleanse and provide tenacity up.
Rather than admit that two of those characters might be overtuned and in need of a nerf, a lot of players have taken to the forums to complain that the tenacity up mechanic itself needs a nerf (which it doesn't)
This post is full of bitter zader and zaul users who have had their time and can't face facts that the meta has finally changed. Rex is providing more variety I see several different Rex teams in my shard where as zaul was identical every single time. The arena is finally well balanced. I have a few Rex, GK, zqgj, a zader, a zinn resistance and even a zaul in my top 20 regularly. Even one first order who drops like mad overnight though.
If that's not a balanced game then what is? And tenacity and cleanse is a major factor in that balance. A change would break the game
This post is full of bitter zader and zaul users who have had their time and can't face facts that the meta has finally changed.
This isn't true. The meta is the same rebel domination, even if you factor in Zaul still existing because there are Zaul teams who use the meta-proof duo.
@leef one minute he claims zaul is number 1 next he says it lasted two months. He is full of ****. @Jedi_Reach_ you must be trolling. Chaze has half a dozen counters. If you can't beat it cause you only run zaul then develop your roster and work on a strategy not go to the forums to complain. "Can't beat chaze or tenacity up or triple cleanse
@leef one minute he claims zaul is number 1 next he says it lasted two months. He is full of ****. @Jedi_Reach_ you must be trolling. Chaze has half a dozen counters. If you can't beat it cause you only run zaul then develop your roster and work on a strategy not go to the forums to complain. "Can't beat chaze or tenacity up or triple cleanse
Resorting to insults already? That was easy. How could I get #1 if I can't beat Chaze? The Zaul "fake meta" or the infestation of Zaul on large, did last a short amount of time compared to the everlasting Chaze which few of you still cannot seem to wrap your head around due to emotional and personal biases. Zaul is still possible and a strong, contending team, but by no means is it meta-proof like Chaze which hasn't been invalidated by anything.
Replies
B2 and Sun Fac don't shine. And Boba is not a counter as you claim. Does his execute work well against chaze? Sure. Does it always 1-shot one of them. No. Not in practice it doesn't. Also if you are running DN, he will be targeted and killed before he can annihilate anyone. The reason DN is good on other teams is because he is hidden behind GK and Baze.
So what counter is there? You need to hide your Boba and DN behind a Chaze and GK. Well then you might as well run Rex too. The point is there is not a "Counter" to the triple cleanse. Sure there are a few teams that can beat it. Like you said resistance, I can beat it most, not all, times with my first order... With 4 zetas...
When you say DN will get focused if not hidden behind a Chaze, it makes me think that you're talking about when the team is AI controlled on defense. If you're talking about a Boba/DN team getting wrecked while they're on defense, well, /shrug so does my Resistance team.
What it negates is EVERY debuff team. I'm all good with your suggestio though... just fix tenacity up.
It should definitely be changed to mirror the effects of tenacity down. Also debuffs always trump buffs except for tenacity up which makes no sense. E.g. offence up/down, speed up/down
None of these counters triple cleanse. I've tried them all. Chaze can even take a boba to the face with 6 buffs on him and survive.
Good luck getting through all that foresight from R2 and GK.
B2? Even if he lands BUFF IMMUNITY TO THE ENTIRE TEAM- they all just cleanse it away and you just gave them free buffs.
THE ONLY WAY IT WORKS: Ability block x3 on all three toons, never critting to never give them free turns, followed by 3x more ability blocks on all three toons, all of which are countering you the entire time and getting free TM and getting free heal over time effects. Oh did I mentioned they all have tenacity cross builds? Yea, 60% tenacity on each. Oh yea, free tenacity up right after the cleanse. Oh right, GK just turned all your red abilities into buffs.
R2 is on triple cleanse teams now- let's get this straight people.
No just No Tan up should be kept as is the Dark side of the Force already clouds the arena too much and has ruled the arena since almost forever please just let the good guys have there turn for once.
WHAT? I just had my Chirrut Executed with 2 DoTs and 3 HoTs. He had half protection.
Yeah but....a lot of ifs there. Tbh I really don't see that path being taken JSA.
But it will be interesting to see if thrawns kit counters triple cleanse. But is it really necessary? Triple cleanse is already making way for wedge lead.
No, her dispel works just fine. However, at max level, top end arena shards a lot of people run teams with Rex, kenobi, and Chirrut which makes it near impossible to get debuffs to stick because those teams have three characters who both cleanse and provide tenacity up.
Rather than admit that two of those characters might be overtuned and in need of a nerf, a lot of players have taken to the forums to complain that the tenacity up mechanic itself needs a nerf (which it doesn't)
EXACTLY!! This was my point in my post about this!
I don't think I have ever read a more blatantly false, un-thought out, and illogical post as this.
It needs to be nerfed it is super broken
I take it you've never fought a Rebel squad before
Make Zader Great Again!
Thanks I get it, the problem is not the mechanic but the combo, thats why nobody argues about Ackbar or Yoda. The real opposite to Rex/Chase's skill would be something like a Ventress' cleanse that also applies buff inmunity at the same time.
If that's not a balanced game then what is? And tenacity and cleanse is a major factor in that balance. A change would break the game
you're using zMaul and finish #1 in arena daily right?
Let's take a look at the context of the post I quoted. This isn't true. The meta is the same rebel domination, even if you factor in Zaul still existing because there are Zaul teams who use the meta-proof duo.