GP Matchmaking & “Fluff”

Replies

  • Rebel_yell
    928 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

    Math.

    If I have 53 g12 and my opponent has 80 and somehow we have the same GP, I know the gear effect puts me at a disadvantage.

    Edit - they also have 45 zetas to my 33
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

    It's not that he will struggle. It's that he will have a more difficult matchup than someone else with the same top end teams but without the fluff. The point is that pure GP is not a good way to determine matchups.
  • Just stating this as fact - no subtext.

    My GP is 3.53M. My opponent is 3.52M.

    I have 45 G12 and 44 zetas.

    My opponent has 23 G12 and 25 zetas.
    I'm not your opponent, but I'm going to get steamrolled similarily. LOL!!!

    BOTH me and my opponent is 3.03M GP.

    Me:
    -0 G12
    -4 G11
    -27 G10
    -38 G9
    -47 G8
    -19 zetas

    My opponent
    -26 G12
    -16 G11
    -9 G10
    -14 G9
    -29 G8
    -27 zetas

    I have 130 7* Toons & 9 6* Toons, vs my opponent's 107 7* Toons & 6 6* Toons.

    I am clearly an "all-rounder" player vs a "powerhouse" opponent.

    Wow. My man. You really should be pushing more characters to 11 & 12. There’s no reason to have that much GP and have FOUR above g10.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

    Math.

    If I have 53 g12 and my opponent has 80 and somehow we have the same GP, I know the gear effect puts me at a disadvantage.

    That depends on who you have g12, how many teams you can put on defence etc......
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

    Because my GP is 1M above what it should be without the fluff. It's just a matter of time to be pitted against a player that has less fluff than me that has superior toons in the non-fluff portion of their roster.

    It takes 7 teams put on defense in my GP grade btw. Just one extra g12 squad my opponent has will make all the difference. This works both ways ofc. At the end of the day GA will be predetermined for me and majority of the playerbase who weren't matched against similar rosters by chance.

    I want to play it. I want to struggle. I want to be outsmarted, outwitted, outskilled by the other player.
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”
  • Rebel_yell
    928 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    This will circle us back to what I've been writing in response to you and fluff which is what this topic is about. You are talking about two choices as if they are directly opposite to eachother. I did my best to illustrate to you they aren't. I did both of these choices without one effecting the other until CG decided it does.

    Oh I'm almost always the top contender in TB...and TW within my guild btw when I have the time to do it.

    How exactly do you have four strong light side and dark side teams (not to mention special missions teams), and still figure you will struggle with grand arena?

    Math.

    If I have 53 g12 and my opponent has 80 and somehow we have the same GP, I know the gear effect puts me at a disadvantage.

    That depends on who you have g12, how many teams you can put on defence etc......

    Dude... you’re grasping for straws here. There is no scenario where someone has a 60% advantage on toons at g12 cannot win through simple attrition. No one with that premier of a roster is willy nillying who they bring to g12

    Edit - I welcome strategic advise and constructive criticism of my roster / matchup

    https://swgoh.gg/u/bcarry/ Vs. https://swgoh.gg/p/674552851/
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Even if you think there is significant gear required to go to g7 or 8, the point is that GP equates a g7->g8 improvement with a g11->g12 improvement. They're not remotely equal in terms of what is required.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Lots of toons need good gear to get to G8..... Thrawn needs 100 carbanti for example...
  • Liath
    5021 posts Member
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Even if you think there is significant gear required to go to g7 or 8, the point is that GP equates a g7->g8 improvement with a g11->g12 improvement. They're not remotely equal in terms of what is required.

    Why do you think this? This isn’t true at all: https://amp.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/
  • BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Lots of toons need good gear to get to G8..... Thrawn needs 100 carbanti for example...

    That’s just 1 toon that is a premier toon specifically designed to be a hard gear. Not reflective of the majority of gear makeups
  • BrtStlnd wrote: »
    Just stating this as fact - no subtext.

    My GP is 3.53M. My opponent is 3.52M.

    I have 45 G12 and 44 zetas.

    My opponent has 23 G12 and 25 zetas.
    I'm not your opponent, but I'm going to get steamrolled similarily. LOL!!!

    BOTH me and my opponent is 3.03M GP.

    Me:
    -0 G12
    -4 G11
    -27 G10
    -38 G9
    -47 G8
    -19 zetas

    My opponent
    -26 G12
    -16 G11
    -9 G10
    -14 G9
    -29 G8
    -27 zetas

    I have 130 7* Toons & 9 6* Toons, vs my opponent's 107 7* Toons & 6 6* Toons.

    I am clearly an "all-rounder" player vs a "powerhouse" opponent.

    Wow. My man. You really should be pushing more characters to 11 & 12. There’s no reason to have that much GP and have FOUR above g10.
    Yes, I *should*...based on the Grand Arena.

    But before Grand Arena existed, I am capable of helping my Guild, I'm still able to clear most of the waves in TB and fill Platoons, hold (and attack) the back half of TW, and still do OK in the Sith and Tank Raids. While other members in my Guild are *exactly* like my opponent, and their job is to hold and attack the front of TW, clear virtually all waves in TB, but do less in Platoons and Deployment.

    Obviously I have to change tactics now.
    When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

    Started mid-FEB 2017, and not trying to reach the top.
  • I'm just going in and doing my best. I've been playing for a long time and have unlocked all but about a dozen characters. My GP is just under 2.5 million, my toon GP is just over 1.5 million. I probably could have better geared toons but I haven't focused on gear and mods because at the end of the day I'm a f2p player and I just want to have fun playing the game. If I wanted a second job I would get something that pays a little better.
  • Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Lots of toons need good gear to get to G8..... Thrawn needs 100 carbanti for example...

    That’s just 1 toon that is a premier toon specifically designed to be a hard gear. Not reflective of the majority of gear makeups

    Is hoth rebel soldier a premiere to get n as well?..... He needs 50.....
  • No_Try
    4051 posts Member
    BubbaFett wrote: »

    Is hoth rebel soldier a premiere to get n as well?..... He needs 50.....

    Thus you keep them at g7 if they are robbing you of more precious resources, so?
  • It's intentional ignorance for anyone to suggest that having built up GP by investing resources in unimportant characters was a bad choice at a certain point in time.
    Look no further than the Guild area tip about TB (which I ought not have to remind everyone predates TW and GA) which literally says that improving your guild's GP is the fastest way to improve TB performance and hence rewards.
    Also, don't neglect the benefit of getting into higher reward tiers in TW by having a higher overall GP participating.
    Guild-wide GP is tied to getting better rewards in certain game modes and so there is no denying that there has been incentive to increasing your GP score, roster-wide.

    And there's also no denying that that creates a competitive imbalance in this new game mode.
    Some people are rightly unhappy about this, because they made a decision that was sensible based on the information available in the past and now it's putting them on the disadvantaged side of that competitive imbalance.

    However, there's a solution to all of this that doesn't change the way matchmaking is done, and no one has recommended it. I'm honestly surprised.
    If we had the possibility to un-equip gear and ability mats from characters, then the basis for complaint in this thread disappears.

    If that were the case, and you are unhappy about over-inflated toons which you invested resources into in the past, but can now revert the decisions you'd made, well then everything's fine, isn't it? If your GP isn't distributed the way you want, then all you have to do is spend some time tinkering with it, right? You could make roster choices informed by up-to-date information instead of being stuck with outdated decisions that you made back when they might've been the best ones available at the time.

    Sounds a lot like the paper zombie issue. Maybe they should have implemented this solution back then, too.
  • Liath wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Even if you think there is significant gear required to go to g7 or 8, the point is that GP equates a g7->g8 improvement with a g11->g12 improvement. They're not remotely equal in terms of what is required.

    Why do you think this? This isn’t true at all: https://amp.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Sorry, was based on some earlier statement I saw saying it was linear, but that was in reference to leveling now that I think about it. Either way the point about fluff hurting you stands.
  • Nauros
    3342 posts Member
    Kyno wrote: »
    Nauros wrote: »
    .
    Kyno wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    3gacf9hauwfi.jpg

    Raw GP means nothing , except of course in the grand arena matchmaking, where it means literally everything.

    That comment was made in response to somebody complaining that the guy he attacked in arena was somehow cheating since his team with a lower GP won. Raw GP means nothing in the context of that thread. Obviously it has an impact in other areas of the game, even before GA.

    In the context of one teams GP vs another.

    GP as a measure of how much you have developed your roster is essentially 100% accurate. Each action you take in development gives and equal point for that same action on any toon. It's your choice where to put it and there for you are made or broken by your development choices since someone with the same GP has invested the same number of "points". In theory, I'm not saying this is the best way, just a really good generalization.

    Except it isn't, as fundamentally different actions can lead to the same value. For example, a newer player who managed to get into a hstr guild early on can have similar GP to an old player who spent time in a guild of friends who took longer to beat hstr, and the pieces making the GP will be vastly different. It's not a matter of different allocation of the same resources, it's a matter of completely different resources that happen to have assigned similar numerical value. A zeta has more utility than a number of "normal" ability upgrades with the same GP value, and it's not a matter of choice but availability. The same goes for a G12 piece and a number of low gear pieces. Again, no choice, as the two mostly come from different sources. That's why the number of zetas, 7* characters, G12 characters and so on is a much better indicator of progress than GP. If the matchmaking was based on that, you would be completely right and it would really be only a matter of choice.

    But it is a matter of different allocation, in this case time. A more causal older player being pinned up against a more focused and actionable roster of a newer player is a fair match up. The older player could have a more effective roster had they made the right choices over time, again I'm just saying players are accountable for the development choices they have made and the dev team should not be in charge of matching us up in a way that intentionally only places players against players who have the same development. Let the game mode separate us out as we develop now knowing what we know.

    Ok, let me give a more extreme example to help you see the point. Imagine two players. Player A started recently and decides to level and gear everyone, after all, low level gear is plentiful. So he ends up with, say, 50 G3 characters because he can't reach better gear yet. Player B, on the other hand, has been playing for a while but ignored all the characters but two, so he ends up with two G10 characters. Both happen to have similar GP (I haven't actually calculated that, it's just ilustration), but made by vastly different components. Should they be matched together? Player A wouldn't stand a chance. GP alone doesn't reflect actual power accurately.
    Now, what could player A have done differently? He could have kept his characters ungeared and would be better off, which, if I remember correctly, was a bad thing when paper zombie was around. Now, it's better to have stockpiled resources, even gear pieces we have thousands of, than give them to characters we aren't planning to use. Isn't that against the spirit of the game?
    Revive the stores, the game needs it.
  • There is a super simple solution to all of this. Just use tiered rewards the same as TW uses. Higher GP means you are in a higher reward tier so that even if you lose you are winning by having a higher GP. Problem solved. No penalties for gearing up characters except to your ego if you lose.
  • Liath
    5021 posts Member
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Liath wrote: »
    Macattack9 wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    Rebel_yell wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    BubbaFett wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Trias wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    Glurp wrote: »
    The assumption behind this discussion is that CG intends it to be fair. No, CG wants us to have to develop both the depth and breadth of our rosters.

    When they created TB, they pushed us to focus on the breadth of our rosters. It is fully intentional that they didn't tell us that, later, TW would put broadly developed rosters at a disadvantage.

    They don't care that GP is a poor metric. They want to push people to gear up toons to be competitive. Fair matchups mean people don't have to change anything.

    It would be easy for them to come up with algorithms for closer matches, although it will never be perfect. But what's the incentive?

    Maybe CG will listen if we continue to show the unfairness of it, but ultimately they will look at whether people are spending to compete this way.

    To be fair GP is not that bad of a overall matching, there is a max number, so if we converted it to a %, you could be matched against someone who has made the 30% (just a random value) of the development choices in their time here and how you developed up to that point is up to you.
    This would be true if GP was approximately linear in the number of development choices made. However it isn't.

    That's because level is not equivalent to ability and so on. But each ability is equal (with zetas counting more).

    Toons are worth what they are worth based on the sum of all those factors, some are worth more by having more abilities. But the whole scale is equal for each player.

    Edit to add: isnt it linear? It's just the sum of multiple linear inputs. Abilities, zeta abilities, levels, gear levels, and mod dots. Each one of those is it's own linear scale.

    Certainly the GP gained from levels is not a linear function of the credits spent. For abilities I'm not sure. Is the GP gained linear in the number of ability mats spent (weighted by type)? For gear it's harder to quantify, but I'm almost certain the GP gained from gear is linear in the amount of effort (expressed e.g. in energy required to farm). Mods where speed is King but counted the same as other stats for GP purposes are highly nonlinear. (There are many development choices here that do not affect your GP at all)

    From a more practical perspective. I have an arena shard mate with a super lean roster. We are both ftp and have done fairly similar in arena. Based on that it is fair to say we have made a similar amount of development choices. His roster is super lean and would probably win against mine in GA. That is fine, he has made better choices (for this purpose). However his GP is about 25% lower than mine.

    Yes I believe a level whether it is 1 or 84 is worth the same GP value. Same for abilities except adding a zeta, being all the same GP added. And each zeta is the same GP value.

    Adding a 5 dot mod is the same as any mod no matter the stats, so fluffing you GP with mods without speed is a bad choice. But that's a players choice, most likely done to be a better looking candidate for TB, and that choice can hurt you in GA and TW.

    His roster is built for this style of game mode, why shouldnt he have the advantage he has developed into.

    Since you seem to like analogies here's one for you. Judge system is based on laws and it's supposed to be impersonal and fair to all. This doesn't mean laws are the best they can be or even mediocrely decent. You know that some country will execute you based on the same action which is completely ok in another. Shouldn't lawmakers strive to make better laws? Is laws being impersonal and apply to everyone similarly means they are fair?

    The legal system is not a game or a competition...... And the game is completely fair to everyone... We all start out with the exact same toons with the exact same amount of resources and how we use them determines the outcome of events and how quickly we can start to acquire more resources..... That's the entire game in a nutshell ..

    What you are essentially asking for is for the game to give players who made poor choices the same access to rewards and resources as well he players who made better choices..... That would not be fair....

    Some part of the laws are a part of a system that can be seen as a competition or a game. It's there to suggest how people conduct their affairs with eachother. Obviously a large part of the laws are made to figure out what people are allowed to do in competition of resources. Yes life isn't a competition or a game, yet it also is.

    You failed to illustrate these poor choices you keep mentioning twice. None of us here is talking about a choice between g12ing Cup vs. g12ing Revan. If I do have the resources I should be able to allocate them without the design hurting me. Poor choices only matter in comparison to eachother. Not allocating resources is not a choice that should be encouraged by any game system smartly built.

    I have said it many many times, so not sure why you feel I haven't said it.....

    Pumping credits and gear and mods and ability mats into a toon you are not using is a series of poor.choices... Nobody is telling you or anyone else not allocate resources.... I am simply saying they should be allocated smartly..... That's half the point of the game by design, not a fault of it......

    TB that's designed right before TW and now GA is telling me exactly to do that. Point of the game is to move forward, not stagnate as much as you can(to game the game) if it's possible. If it isn't it should be.

    No, TB is not telling you to do that..... Not at all.

    Go into phase 6 of TB with four solid G12 teams and complete all of the combat missions then tell me your score will be less than a player that doesn't have those g12 teams but used mats and credits etc pumping up useless toons for extra GP.... It won't be...

    In fact, completing all four of those.missions gives me almost 3x the overall GP of my roster.....

    The resources to G12 and the resources to fluff are mutually exclusive. You can do both simultaneously because 1 doesn’t interfere with the other. Getting to 7* level 85, G8, with abilities leveled up to 4 and 5* mods does not negatively impact my G12, zeta progression on my CM clearing teams.

    I disagree..... I can't think of a toon that doesnt require some important gear to reach g8....

    You’re thinking of g9. Guns, carbs, and cuffs don’t show up until g8*. So you can get there super easy.

    *mostly

    It’s crossing from 8 -> 9 that you encounter overlap. Hence the “G9 wall”

    Even if you think there is significant gear required to go to g7 or 8, the point is that GP equates a g7->g8 improvement with a g11->g12 improvement. They're not remotely equal in terms of what is required.

    Why do you think this? This isn’t true at all: https://amp.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Sorry, was based on some earlier statement I saw saying it was linear, but that was in reference to leveling now that I think about it. Either way the point about fluff hurting you stands.

    It isn’t true for levels either (it’s in the same link).
  • Metroplex79
    769 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    To bypass "fluff" and other metrics, what about:

    Grand Arena calculates your "opponent range" based on only your Top 60 Toons. Then do some calculation based on Gear level average and GP of just them. Highly unlikely many players would use many outside of their "best", right?

    That's 12 squads, more than sufficient to determine how powerful you "truly" are defensively and offensively, even if you heavily "fluffed" your whole roster.
    When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

    Started mid-FEB 2017, and not trying to reach the top.
  • js4
    129 posts Member
    Rebel_yell wrote: »

    Math.

    If I have 53 g12 and my opponent has 80 and somehow we have the same GP, I know the gear effect puts me at a disadvantage.

    Edit - they also have 45 zetas to my 33


    don't forget mods, possibly more important. modernity of the roster is a big factor as well.
  • Nauros
    3342 posts Member
    There is a super simple solution to all of this. Just use tiered rewards the same as TW uses. Higher GP means you are in a higher reward tier so that even if you lose you are winning by having a higher GP. Problem solved. No penalties for gearing up characters except to your ego if you lose.

    Hopefully it will be the case in the "real" runs, otherwise it will just be another feeding ground for the whales. If they get the whole thing to work in the first place...
    Revive the stores, the game needs it.
  • To bypass "fluff" and other metrics, what about:

    Grand Arena calculates your "opponent range" based on only your Top 60 Toons. Then do some calculation based on Gear level average and GP of just them. Highly unlikely many players would use many outside of their "best", right?

    That's 12 squads, more than sufficient to determine how powerful you "truly" are defensively and offensively, even if you heavily "fluffed" your whole roster.

    Could require more than 60. Just get mods and stars out of the calculation and limit it to a weighted gear average and zetas
  • Slothmaster
    245 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Gair wrote: »
    This is a situation i'm currently in. My GP is scaled high because of lowbie trash toons and their stars, not actual G12s or relative power. It in tally makes my total higher, but this type of matchmaking provides guaranteed losses.

    Yep that’d be why I have pretty much no interest in it. I’ll literally never win, and I know it.
  • Anybody defending CGs matchmaking abilities or even attempting to justify it is poop--just like CGs matchmaking.

    I've been playing this game for years. I have 4.2+ million GP. I was matched with another player with nearly the same GP, down to the hundreds.

    Here's what that doesn't tell you: he has revan, I don't. He has a 7* traya, I have a 6. He has MORE Zetas than I do G12 characters, and I have ~50 G12 characters. He has nearly twice as many Zetas as I do.

    This dude has a zeta on vandor chewie, while I have to make the decision to either place my next zeta on chirpa for 3p0, or put my 2nd one on traya. Why do I have such low zeta count you ask? That's a great question, thank you for asking. Let's just say I was one of those players that was in a certain fleet shard a while back. Thanks for the compensation for .... that one up too, CG. J/K.

    To say it has factors other than straight GP... well, you wouldn't say that unless you were ignorant/ simple, or just cursed with lunacy. Or maybe just a troll, not sure.

    It wouldn't take more than a day to figure out a better matchmaking system and to implement it. And with the millions that CG pulls in monthly, they can take a day.

    Here's a thought: have it based off Zeta count rather than GP as a temporary fix. I won't spell it all out here, but when you put just a little bit of thought into it, zeta count is a much better indicator of squad power/ competetive capabilities than GP is.

    Or just have it based off of player level and have it be completely random. At least a certain demographic of players (particularly the paying ones) would only get screwed sometimes instead of all the time. I'll rather take my chances in that then whatever the .... it is you got going on now.

    The more PVP aspects they bring the higher the stakes are and the more meaningful the rewards, particularly at this point in the game. They have to fix their matchmaking.

    Instead, though, I'm sure they're spending their time coming up with another clever way to allude violence against people who have white skin and incorporating it somehow into star wars:

    https://forums.galaxy-of-heroes.starwars.ea.com/discussion/181694/how-do-you-like-the-bounty-hunting-business#latest

    But by all means, feel free to take a day to fix your matchmaking. We're all waiting.
  • ..............................Paper zombie...........................
  • Lmao @ kyno, GC's henchman
  • I really like the top 60 toons idea. It feels bad to work toward beating all PVE content, starring everyone for TB etc, working on depth for GW ages ago, and then the next game mode rewards the exact opposite behavior to the point that I can never hope to win and might as well post a 0. I understand the people who are happy with the situation as it is, but I think most of them don't understand that it turns the whole event into a foregone conclusion for a large portion of the players (fluff = lose, no fluff = win, somewhere in the middle ~= fun?), and that isn't a healthy thing.

    I haven't actually gone in and tried to attack yet, but my opponent posted teams I don't have and I am pretty sure I can't beat them even if I hadn't placed defense.

    The big bright spot in all this is that unlike the regular arena, I don't have to sit here for the exact same two hours every day and stare at my phone while life passes me by. I enjoy a lot of things about this game, but I am aching for some arena replacement that isn't so blatantly toxic toward human interaction.
  • PS: I also spent a lot on crew members because I earn a lot more from fleet arena than regular arena, so that is working against me here too, although supposedly in the future there will be fleet territories in GA where I can use them.
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