Grand Arena Megathread

Replies

  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    You argued that credits were unlimited in late game as a way of saying not spending credits to level every toon has to be to game the system. I just called that out as false. I listed a few legitimate reasons to hoard credits.

    And I don't think they are unable to come up with alternative matchmaking methods. They could easily match on number of g12 characters, which would please you. But a bunch of others would complain because they are matched against someone with double the gp, better mods, revan, or whatever other thing that seems unfair to them.

    So I am simply arguing that a matchmaking system that pleases everyone is impossible. So there is no need to spend resources trying to fix ehat isn't broken just because a few people complain when the fixes would just make a new group complain.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced
  • Gannon
    1475 posts Member
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Either way the rules are the same for everyone. You can put more focus into g12+ as easily as your opponent. So long term you have the same chance to be competitive as anyone.

    And they do want you to occasionally face a roster that is better than yours. For a couple of reasons.

    First, some people like a challenge.

    Second and most important to CG. If you faced opponents that were your equal every match there'd be no incentive to improve your roster. You'd just face a better roster next time by doing so. By basing it off gp, they encourage those with less competitive rosters to spend money to catch up to those with more competitive rosters.

    So like it or not it's working as intended.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    Finally a person that gets what I see as the core of the issue.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    Are you sure that's accurate for g12+ pieces. They were released separately and it's the gear 12+ that usually requires the 50 stun guns or stun cuffs as part of it. The g12 pieces usually require less salvage with the main piece so aalmost double a g8 is reasonable for a medpac or something similar.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

  • Second and most important to CG. If you faced opponents that were your equal every match there'd be no incentive to improve your roster. You'd just face a better roster next time by doing so. By basing it off gp, they encourage those with less competitive rosters to spend money to catch up to those with more competitive rosters.

    So like it or not it's working as intended.

    And what are those intentions, has they even been declared? You are projecting your own desires onto CG and community at large.

  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    Are you sure that's accurate for g12+ pieces. They were released separately and it's the gear 12+ that usually requires the 50 stun guns or stun cuffs as part of it. The g12 pieces usually require less salvage with the main piece so aalmost double a g8 is reasonable for a medpac or something similar.

    I'm not positive I haven't looked at the code. However, determining whether a piece like a stun cuff (+60 physical dmg, sometimes necessary at g8) is worth more than half a multi tool (+250 health, +40 str/agi/tactics, + 50 physical dmg, +50 special dmg, +10% pot, +10% ten, +5% health steal - g12 regular) is something that CG's never actually tried to do. They have, as far as I know, never claimed that GP is meant to be a balanced metric of character value. The first time it was used was for TB where it didn't really matter.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

  • Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    No, they don't have different GP for different parts. Each piece is just the value listed in that chart regardless of what goes into it.

    I think by between properties the other poster meant between gear, levels, stars, abilities etc.
  • No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp
  • I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.
  • Gannon wrote: »
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    I mean Gear vs Levels vs Stars vs Abilities in terms of GP. Current GP calculation is crooked both in terms of each tiers GP value and in between comparisons of these properties.

    Oh ok, you and I discussed that in another thread. It balances out tho, sort of, with stars v gear (as far as most stats are concerned) the abilities really depend on each toons kit to figure if it's justifiable gp

    That might be true but CG's never claimed to have even thought about it. GP's mostly arbitrary. The more gear/abilities/levels/stars/mods the higher your gp goes but other than that they've never tried to make it a balanced or fair system.
  • No_Try wrote: »

    Second and most important to CG. If you faced opponents that were your equal every match there'd be no incentive to improve your roster. You'd just face a better roster next time by doing so. By basing it off gp, they encourage those with less competitive rosters to spend money to catch up to those with more competitive rosters.

    So like it or not it's working as intended.

    And what are those intentions, has they even been declared? You are projecting your own desires onto CG and community at large.

    They want to make money of course. Perfect match making leaves no incentive to improve your roster even if it could be achieved. But the current system, you can easily improbe your chances for next time by focus. You can of course do thos much faster by spending cash.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    Are you sure that's accurate for g12+ pieces. They were released separately and it's the gear 12+ that usually requires the 50 stun guns or stun cuffs as part of it. The g12 pieces usually require less salvage with the main piece so aalmost double a g8 is reasonable for a medpac or something similar.

    I'm not positive I haven't looked at the code. However, determining whether a piece like a stun cuff (+60 physical dmg, sometimes necessary at g8) is worth more than half a multi tool (+250 health, +40 str/agi/tactics, + 50 physical dmg, +50 special dmg, +10% pot, +10% ten, +5% health steal - g12 regular) is something that CG's never actually tried to do. They have, as far as I know, never claimed that GP is meant to be a balanced metric of character value. The first time it was used was for TB where it didn't really matter.

    For g12 140 gp compared to 81 for g8 is fairly reasonable. For g12+ I would expect it to be more because it has even rarer pieces and g8 salvage to boot. The redit post is over a year ago so it was pre g12+. So they may have assigned a value higher than 140 to those pieces. I never pay attention to how much my gp increases when I put on a piece of gear.
  • Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.
  • RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    And if you both have old bad characters, then it's not mismatched. You can't have it both ways.

    Not sure why you repeatedly accuse me of making absurd arguments. This guy is a kraken, I don't know if he has any old bad characters. Even so, a fight where one player has 60 more g12 than another is clearly not an even match. No matter how many times you say it shouldn't matter that doesn't change the fact that the current matchmaking system is obviously exploitable.

    You can view his roster so you can see if he has good characters or not. I cannot. But you don't seem to understand that you can probably beat this guy with focus eben with his increased g12 because there is no way he can effectively use them all.

    I haven't addressed the "you can beat him" point because it's irrelevant. Almost anyone can beat anyone theoretically, assuming the disadvantaged player plays perfectly and the one with the advantage makes significant mistakes. They could just match people up that are the same level and you could still argue that it's possible. The point is that it's not a balanced match which is the ENTIRE point of a good matchmaking system. Arguing about the exact specifics of my intelligence, his roster, or whatever other nonsense you want to bring up doesn't apply. A good matchmaking system would lead to matches where the opponents are relatively comparable. I have a few more zetas, he has a few hundred more speed mods. Even pretending those are equivalent, he has 60 more good characters. That's bad matchmaking regardless of whether you think I should be able to one-shot the 11 best meta defenses in the game and beat him.

    You have the same gp. How you got it is irrelevant. You're equally invested. 👹
    Fair enough

    This would make sense if GP was calculated in a balanced way. Two g8 characters have a higher GP than a max g12+ gear/zeta character. That's not equal investment. It takes nothing to get a character to g8.

    I routinely kill g12 fully zeta'd teams with my g8 Kenobi on the line. They're not matching you with a carbon copy of your own roster, just equally invested players.
    Two g8s can kill one g12 if their kits are a decent counter.

    "equally invested" - by an absurd metric. A piece of g12.5 gear is 140 gp. A piece of g8 gear is 81 gp. Look at the investment it takes to get each piece - effort, shard cost, whatever. Two g8 pieces is never harder or more expensive than a g12.5 piece.

    That's because 12.5 gear is made up of many other gear parts, all adding their bonuses. Lol that argument makes no sense, it's a combo part so of course it'll add more gp. It adds more bonuses also

    Are you unclear on what I'm saying? Add a g12.5 piece and your gp goes up a total of 140 gp. Add a g8 piece and your gp goes up 81. Clearly GP is not an accurate reflection of investment. Also, look at the stats you get for a g8 piece or a g12.5 piece. Compare the stats of a g8 piece to a 12+ piece - not remotely close. If they balanced gp so 12 and 12.5 pieces were orders of magnitude more valuable than g8 pieces (and balance everything else) then it might make sense to do matchmaking by gp. They created this GP system before they ever used it for matchmaking, it's pretty clear they didn't thoroughly consider investment or value when determining how much GP everything is worth.

    And I think you missed my point, that 140 gp g12 piece was mostly made up of a g8 part, with a few more smaller components that add a lil more gp and a few more perks. The math adds up.

    You don't get points for all the components in addition to the main piece. What makes you think the math adds up? CG's never even claimed that their GP equation is balanced

    Which piece specifically are you referring to? I don't get what you mean. You're saying that a 140gp piece isn't higher than an 81gp piece? You just have those examples tho. I'm so lost

    Currently a g12.5+ piece is valued by their equation as being less valuable than two g8 pieces. Your explanation of equal investment makes no sense given that their GP equation does not attempt to accurately compare either the investment or the actual value of each piece. Yes, a g12.5 piece is worth more gp than a g8 piece, but by nowhere near as much as it should be based on what it adds to the character or what it takes to acquire.

    As someone posted above, an alternative to coming up with a decent matchmaking algorithm would be to take the time to provide appropriate values for skills, mods, etc instead of the arbitrary ones they originally used back before they even considered using GP for match making

    I think someone posted it earlier in this thread, but I think you need to go look at how the gp is calculated. May explain better for you.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/6k4vzn/the_new_power_calc_formula_for_characters/

    Yes, that is the chart I used. It's 140 for a g12 piece and 81 for a g8 piece. If you put a g12 piece on you don't get points for the components that go into the g12 piece - it's just a flat 140.

    140>81
    No_Try wrote: »
    Gannon wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    RuFiOHHHHH wrote: »
    "The point is to see how you stack up against people who are roughly in your league as far as total resources spent in the game (I.e. GP), not to only face people with perfect clones of your own roster."

    CG's stated in the past that they don't want people to need to be penalized for having stuff leveled. For those of us here since the beginning, we're stuck with resources spent on outdated characters. As soon as CG allows people to remove gear/stars/levels from characters then it'd be about who has similar resources. As far as GP goes, it's not even remotely balanced as far as total resources spent in game. For example, a maxed out, zeta'd Ezra is 21168. My g8 CUP is 12800. 2 g8 old characters that were leveled for TB are not more resource intensive or valuable than one maxed meta character.

    As game designers they should be building systems that support the behavior they want in their player base. In the whole paper zombie fiasco they stated that it never their goal to punish people for leveling characters. This matchmaking system obviously does so.

    So you're saying you have only old bad characters at g12 out of 75 and your opponent that has 134 g12 has no old bad characters at g12. I call ****.

    You aren't being punished for leveling characters. In fact, this game mode rewards thise that go ahead and complete this process and get them to g12 rather than stopping at g8 to chase the next new shiny coming out.

    That's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. This game mode rewards people with lots of characters left at level 1, 2* after unlocking who take all their mods off of the bottom characters on their roster. Sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded.

    I agree sandbagging shouldn't be rewarded. But the matchmaking isn't the solution to that. Tiered rewards that encourage you to grow your gp by putting you in a higher bracket would discourage sandbagging with much less effort than changing the whole matchmakimg system.

    But even as it is, most don't leave characters at level 1 because of ga. I leave useless characters at level 1 g1 because I want to have the credits for better mods or to level a good character later and the gear to gear a good character later. Eventually you realize that g7 level 50 characters add nothing to your ability to complete events. So you stop leveling useless toons.

    And mod stripping does not have a significant enough effect to drastically effect matchmaking. You may lower your gp by 50k by stripping mods but at 4.6 mil that's a rounding error.

    People who started when I did mostly have infinite credits, training droids and ability mats other than omegas and zetas. This is a strategy that I'm sure his guild uses in TW as well as GA to guarantee the best matchups for them. I'd bet his guild clears TB with full stars and that he doesn't miss out on any big deal characters. He's not saving resources, to have 137 g12 characters he must spend an absolute truckload of money on the game. Any weakness in his roster is intentional.

    not all late game players have unlimited credits. Training droids yes. But credits no. If you frequently buy mods to try and get a lot of good mods, it burns through a lot of credits pretty quick. I keep a stash of about 40 mil but that is hardly unlimited when mods go for 5mil + each and leveling them is a crapshoot. There's also the likelihood of an eventual level cap increase so I want a decent stash to level up to level 90 when that happens. It'll probably cost a couple million per toon to do so at least. So my 40 mil may get me 20 toons to level 90. I can see those wanting 100 mil or more saved. But I balance that with trying to get good mods.

    And you're not in a guild that can clear tb without further inflating your roster? At 4.6 mil gp, if you are in a guild that is made up of similar level players, that should be a walk in the park.

    And some spend money to win. Fact of life. I personally don't but can probably beat most whales at similar gp because I focus and have to make do with what I habe and the result of doing that is you get more skilled when you can't buy your way through everything.

    Once again, this is unrelated to the idea of whether the matchmaking is balanced. GP's related values are mostly arbitrary. This matches people on GP. Thus, the matchmaking is mostly arbitrary. Not sure why you are so adamant that CG's not smart enough to come up with a better system without investing a ton of resources.

    It's not arbitrary, it's directly dependent on the gear, stars, levels, etc on a character. It tells you their power.

    It's arbitrary as it doesn't take in consideration any meaningful metric both inside the tiers and in between properties. They could have given g1-1, g2-2 GP value...and that would also be on the same arbitrariness level.

    Don't they have different gp for different parts? What do you mean their properties?

    No, they don't have different GP for different parts. Each piece is just the value listed in that chart regardless of what goes into it.

    I think by between properties the other poster meant between gear, levels, stars, abilities etc.

    Don't g12 parts require a g8 part? Then they just add two more lil parts or something right?
    If it's even across the board for parts at each tier like you said, then it really doesn't matter. Each part would be 1/6 toward the next tier, right?
    It'd be much worse if carbantis added more gp than other parts or something lol
  • Actually, matchmaking on GP gives very little incentive to improve your roster. If you improve, you face better competition, so not real benefit in that area. The arena shards actually do a good job in that reward.
    iN Spectre
  • Member5973
    127 posts Member
    edited December 2018
    Member5973 wrote: »
    I don’t get your numbers. I put a Mk 3 Holo Projector on 7* G8 Zaalbar and got 121 „power points“. Then I put the G12 Multi Tool on 7* KRU and got 682 „power points“. I agree that 2% gain in tenacity from the first is nothing compared to what you get from the latter. The power points numbers do not reflect the actual value of the item. They are arbitrary and not a consistent and meaningful metric. But I didn’t find the numbers in the Reddit post.

    that certainly weights h12 far more than the redit post says it does. Which would put a hole in the g12 isn't weighted enough argument. That puts the g12 piece adding 5 times the g8 piece to your gp.

    I don’t think so. The G12+ Stun Gun only adds 210 power points. Actually these numbers perfectly validate the argument.

    Plus the difference in power points added does not reflect the increase in viability.
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