[MEGA] Road Ahead: July 2021

Replies

  • Rath_Tarr
    4944 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you are coming down to 1v1 you're doing it wrong.
    True, although 1v1 JML is pretty funny.
    "Git off mah lawn!"
    "No, you git off my lawn!"
    :D
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.
  • If you are coming down to 1v1 you're doing it wrong.

    Not the point.

    The point was to illustrate that JMLS is dependent on his allies for the victory. The fact that you agree that relying on JMLS to kill another GL is "doing it wrong" only emphasizes the broad agreement on that point.

    If JMLS could kill GLs on his own, then nerfing JMLS's allies wouldn't be a concern. We'll see what kind of concern it is in actual play, but it's nice to know that you agree that JMLS is dependent on his allies for the victory.
  • Alexandros21
    35 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all


    That ... and also ... GAS got 65% defense penetration still as you mentioned, can apply armor shred (-50% defense) and has decent armor penetration on his stats (at least at relic 8)... GAS will still hit for a significant amount and will pretty much ignore the majority of the opponents defense with only one armor shred...

    I am surprised people are freaking out about JML and not like .... Thrawn or Vader :P
  • Ultra
    11487 posts Moderator
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    It looks like they are going to kill the free to play players with these changes!

    You can freely get a GL though

    I think everyone is misstating when they're saying "letting down the F2P player base" (by nerfing GL counters) - what they really mean is "letting down people interesting in playing this game really well".

    If you think back to the meta at the time GA was released (DR/Malak meta) - you had one squad that nothing else could beat, and GAC was a game of either putting that on D, and both sides cleared the other zone, or saving it for offense and hoping you win the mirror. And similar things happened in TW.
    ... and if you didn't have DR/Malak, its an automatic loss (or if your guild didn't have enough DR/Malaks .... (though back then TWs had faction buffs so you could make it up with a buffed Mace Windu or mega-clones).


    This decision by CG to intentionally make non-GL counters to GLs dramatically more difficult will move the game back to that state. It's about Fun 2 Play not Free 2 Play.

    (I say this as someone with JMK)
    I understand the complaints, and I considered it as a nerf too until i spent some time thinking more on it

    They are actually nerfing 4 toons (JKL, Vader, GAS, Wat Tambor), and I understand where they are coming from (ignoring defense) for JKL, GAS, Wat

    Vader is just a straight up nerf because he hits hard, the other 3 got ignore defense changed so that tanks are actually good in this game again. Don't agree with the Vader nerf, especially since he isn't getting a proper buff to compensate it

    Other than Vader, there is no direct actions taken to prevent GL counters, these changes are to make every tank in this game better, not the other way around

    as far as i know, there aren't any other heavy hitting toons in this game that ignore defense, unfortunately, these 4 toons are also used to counter Galactic Legends so it looks like they are nerfing toons to keep GLs non-counterable but we still have a few GL counters to use that they haven't touched

    CLS: Can counter SEE, JML
    Fives Cheese with Bariss or w/ GAS - Can still take out SLKR
    Padme + Cat - Can still take out JMK

    I'm sure there are more i'm forgetting but CG isn't just trying to cancel all GL counters with no-GLs

    The character nerfs are part of making tanks good in this game, and they have added some enhancements to the kits to make them good (but obv not as great as they used to be) to offset some of the changes

    so I'm fine with it

    The next thing is buffing Rey + SEE:

    No comment on Rey since it seems like 3x damage is no good enough post-r9 so i feel whatever about it

    SEE getting stomped by troopers wasn't a good thing, every infinite loop team was nerfed in this game, and so should troopers

    It was also a big MEGA thread on SEE getting dunked on troopers, and a huge complain by playerbase for over 6 months

    Instead of nerfing troopers, they buffed SEE just so he does better against troopers amazes me because troopers still have the possibility to do an infinite turn meter train against other team comps, but they didn't touch them

    ----
    Raid Boss tags

    This isn't a nerf but a buff to GLs and I get why this is very controversial, I didn't like it at first but the more I think about it the more I'm okay with it

    Abilities that work the same to Raid Bosses still work against GLs, this was much needed as GL kits had specific call outs (Cannot be critically hit to prevent GAS CDR, protection recovery to prevent GAS from reducing max health etc) and CD CC mods were practically useless because of it, we also have undispellable taunts now to avoid GLs getting fractured immediately out of the gate, and ability blocks or ways to prevent them from being targeted (JML efflux, SEE deception, JMK has GR units with undispellable taunt + DI)

    Instead of adding 50 abilities just to work around GAS / Thrawn, with the raid boss tags, I think the toons we get in the future, and the GLs we get in the future will be much better

    There is a kit design issue because of GAS. Why do you think SEE recovers 2% prot when linked enemy (who is almost always programmed to be GAS) attacks?

    It also means CG won't nerf / prevent any counters that don't rely on abilities that work differently on raid bosses, so Padme + CAT, Fives cheese, CLS, etc are acceptable GL counters

    Bottom line TL;DR

    I don't think I'm misunderstanding the complaints, I've thought about the road ahead changes long and hard myself

    I think kits will be a lot more interesting for future GLs and units, I think we need to wait and see what counters are going to be meta going forward that doesn't use a GL

    I think there is a lot of the reaction is somewhat over the top, and the changes aren't as bad as we think they are, and there are still a lot of "F2P" aka non-GL counters available to us

    I think Rey will be a top tier defensive GL again since almost all counters without a GL are rendered useless against her, and I think that is a legitimate complaint by the people ITT (thrawn, vader, GAS)

    I don't like that Vader straight up got a damage nerf and he's the only unit that got a nerf, the other units got a rebalancing to make tanks better
  • Fieldgulls
    419 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    The last time I checked JML was a tank…it is pretty obvious that he will need damage dealers on his team which includes GAS. With his ultimate being a problem when he is in the lead no wonder people are upset including me. The relic 9 move, in the guise of improving tanks, is another low blow. What is relic 10 going to improve “supports”? It is way too soon for relic 9. The gear crunch is still bad, impulse detectors are at a premium (I have 90 aero’s) but very little items to scrap for detectors. The gear economy is all out of whack…conquest reward is a great example. The better you do the less gear and overall relic materials you receive. If CAT is included in the second shard slot (replacing RC) in the next conquest than it is another kick in jewels as those shards will be shard currency for many of us.
  • Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.
  • Alexandros21
    35 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Agreed ... JKL's kit / abilities got nerfed much harder than GAS - I think the problem is that people are not that familiar with how defense / armor works. Which to be fair... is not explained amazingly imho
  • Ultra
    11487 posts Moderator
    edited July 2021
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Yes, that's what CG is trying to tell us, ignoring defense is ruining game balance, as every non-GL can easily be one shot at this point, and as damage ramps up at higher relic levels, attackers will take out, or already are taking out, everyone except GLs

    Tanks really aren't good in this game right now

    Most of them are only good at pretaunting the first opening hit and then dying out afterwards
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Yes, that's what CG is trying to tell us, ignoring defense is ruining game balance, as every non-GL can easily be one shot at this point, and as damage ramps up at higher relic levels, attackers will take out, or already are taking out, everyone except GLs

    Tanks really aren't good in this game right now

    Most of them are only good at pretaunting the first opening hit and then dying out afterwards
    Shouldn’t have CG thought of that when creating relics? Some of the relics on characters make little sense…there should have been more variety based on the character and type. Now they have to release relic 9 to help tanks?? Then fix several kits? Fix relics!!
  • TVF
    36560 posts Member
    If you are coming down to 1v1 you're doing it wrong.

    Not the point.

    The point was to illustrate that JMLS is dependent on his allies for the victory. The fact that you agree that relying on JMLS to kill another GL is "doing it wrong" only emphasizes the broad agreement on that point.

    If JMLS could kill GLs on his own, then nerfing JMLS's allies wouldn't be a concern. We'll see what kind of concern it is in actual play, but it's nice to know that you agree that JMLS is dependent on his allies for the victory.

    I mean if you want to just put words in my mouth I'll just wish you a Happy Tuesday.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF
    36560 posts Member
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Agreed ... JKL's kit / abilities got nerfed much harder than GAS - I think the problem is that people are not that familiar with how defense / armor works. Which to be fair... is not explained amazingly imho

    Have you heard the story of Darth Repulse the 3x Damage?
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Yes, that's what CG is trying to tell us, ignoring defense is ruining game balance, as every non-GL can easily be one shot at this point, and as damage ramps up at higher relic levels, attackers will take out, or already are taking out, everyone except GLs

    Tanks really aren't good in this game right now

    Most of them are only good at pretaunting the first opening hit and then dying out afterwards

    Easily? Okay...

    Just get farm all of JKL's reqs to r3 for his event. Then get him to r7+. Then get JKR and Bast unlocked and geared enough. Then get all your mods configured properly. Then practice the counter; small changes in speeds and such require small changes in the strategy.

    So all of that was easy? Sure, Jan /s

    Further, as others have pointed out repeatedly, there are ripple effects to these changes. Some of use added zetas to Ben to help this counter on the fringes. Some of us pushed Bast further in gear/relics than we would have otherwise.

    Your point about everything being easily 1-shot is also ludicrous. JKL with a lot of buffs attacking out of turn can do it.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Agreed ... JKL's kit / abilities got nerfed much harder than GAS - I think the problem is that people are not that familiar with how defense / armor works. Which to be fair... is not explained amazingly imho

    Have you heard the story of Darth Repulse the 3x Damage?

    Which only matters if you can kill SLK's adds first. Your point is moot.
  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    TVF wrote: »
    I mean if you want to just put words in my mouth I'll just wish you a Happy Tuesday.

    They are using your own words dude. You are straw man arguing points to try to dismiss others without actually arguing against their point. Everybody with any intelligence sees Jedi Master Luke is the weakest GL by a mile. You won't address this by using some broad misdirect about proper 'utilization'.
    Post edited by Kyno on
  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    edited July 2021
    Ultra wrote: »
    Tanks really aren't good in this game right now

    Most of them are only good at pretaunting the first opening hit and then dying out afterwards

    That is why SEE will continue to ignore defense, and CAT will continue to have a one shot kill. Yes, these really back up your point on ignore defense being an issue and the relevance of tanks in the game. Please tell me you seriously are not buying that

    Post edited by Kyno on
  • This has to be one of the worst updates ever. I get it that you want to seperate GL with non GL but adding R9???? We just got R8 and what about the gear crunch GR11-13??? Its just horrible... You will single-handedly destroy the player base.

    Also, why R8 toons being required for a ship? R3 would be enough.... You want cash eh?
  • TVF
    36560 posts Member
    TVF wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Agreed ... JKL's kit / abilities got nerfed much harder than GAS - I think the problem is that people are not that familiar with how defense / armor works. Which to be fair... is not explained amazingly imho

    Have you heard the story of Darth Repulse the 3x Damage?

    Which only matters if you can kill SLK's adds first. Your point is moot.

    So you don't use JML lead. Ok.
    I need a new message here. https://discord.gg/AmStGTH
  • TVF wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Agreed ... JKL's kit / abilities got nerfed much harder than GAS - I think the problem is that people are not that familiar with how defense / armor works. Which to be fair... is not explained amazingly imho

    Have you heard the story of Darth Repulse the 3x Damage?

    Which only matters if you can kill SLK's adds first. Your point is moot.

    So you don't use JML lead. Ok.

    The note you responded to responded to a note by me that is about JKR+JKL vs SLK.

    But if your point was about JML lead, then yes, that sounds like an awesome addition to increase JKL's utility in that squad.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Brotherius wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    JML + JKL and new repulse can’t kill GLs? LOL he will wipe the floor with SLKR.

    Read this thread, there's a ton of people that seem to think JML is now worthless lol.

    He’s now the worst GL of them all. Here’s why:

    Rey is getting a boost to her kit to do insane damage and now has much better defensive viability. JML beating Rey relied on max health reduction, cool down reduction and the ability to eat through her defense. Both GAS and JKL got nerfed against GL’s. JML relies solely on supporting cast to do damage. Now that damage has been reduced so if Rey is able to get to her ultimate twice, it’s over.

    SEE vs JML? 98% win rate for SEE.

    JMK vs JML? You’re taking away damage and other viability so now that already shaky fight gets even more tuned to JMK.

    SLKR vs JML? SLKR is going to be tougher to beat now. GAS can no longer increase cool downs on crits to keep his AOE under control or reduce max health anymore, nor ignore defense.
    Luke is losing defense ignoring as well. It’s going to be much harder to take out SLKR before his ultimate now. So if that’s the case and it’s just JML vs SLKR, JML loses that 1v1 every time.

    Will he be worthless overall? No, he will still crush anyone non GL. He is now the worst GL and needs to be buffed for better GL 1v1 viability or at least make his ultimate charge a bit faster
  • SerylT2
    146 posts Member
    Ultimately these changes are utterly uncalled for. They are supposedly trying to fix something that people were generally happy with to begin with. When you go around doing that you only end up breaking things. This game has made a nice rebound in good will since the Vader rework and just about everything that followed... why tempt fate and risk damage now? The response to this Road Ahead should be more than enough warning to be like.. "Ehhhh... maybe we shouldn't mess up a good thing?"

    As many have said, a big part of the fun of this game is theory crafting. The defenders claim that new counters could be found post update.. but you are just going to dissuade people from even trying if they feel that if a counter is found and put out to the public, that C.G. will just nerf it into the ground the next possible chance.
  • Ultra wrote: »
    Dace_Prow wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you were getting to a 1v1 situation with JML vs other GLs than the kit changes before and after doesn't matter because you will still end up losing

    JKL got buffed in some areas, and only lost ignore defense (offset with defense penetration, offense increase, 3x200% damage vs GLs, he still ignores defense vs Tanks)

    GAS lost ignore defense on his basic (got some armor pen in exchange), but in some scenarios his AOE + Kick dealt massive amounts of damage and that isn't changed or affected at all

    JKL I don't think is a big change.

    What matters for GAS in beating GLs (particularly rey / Kylo) isn't his defense pen or even his damage, its the max health reduction.

    JML vs rey, I'd just keep on using master's training to hit rey over and over and over with GAS's assist until her health is manageable. that's now gone.

    For JML vs SEE, either in bast lead or jericho mode, there's a bunch of buffs that happen in many situations with a JML team (prot up at start if using bast lead, JML's own self-applied jedi wisdom at start), battle meditation if you're using bast, master's training from hoda, JKL's jedi will (either on JKL lead or when JKL helps JML out), and, of course, JML's ult ... if each of those are feeding TM to the SEE team, its probably going to go pear shaped. I know CG intended this to give troopers the boot, but JML is going to get badly sideswiped here.

    You realize JML with Jedi's Will will have a serious damage reduction with the proposed JKL change, right? Certainly not as severe as JKL himself since JML does special damage and Reistance is usually less than Armor.

    I'm just shocked how many people don't realize how huge the ignore defense aspect of Jedi's Will is. Going from +25% offense to +50% is only a 20% relative total increase, assuming no other sources of increased offense from lead, uniques, or buffs. Since you almost always have some other offense boosts, the relative increase they gave us is vastly inferior.

    JKR lead using JKR, JKL, Bast, Hoda, Ben

    Current setup with offense up from Bast and MT from Hoda, Offense +35+50+50+25=+160%. Ignoring armor against relic toons is almost always at least doubles that damage.
    So, currently, around 5.2x damage on those buffed JKL basics.

    After the nerf, +185% offense and no ignore armor. So around 2.85x damage.

    Yes, that's what CG is trying to tell us, ignoring defense is ruining game balance, as every non-GL can easily be one shot at this point, and as damage ramps up at higher relic levels, attackers will take out, or already are taking out, everyone except GLs

    Tanks really aren't good in this game right now

    Most of them are only good at pretaunting the first opening hit and then dying out afterwards

    You must just have the very best mods ever in the game to be easily oneshotting every toon in the game that isn't a GL. Please, share with us lowly mortals your mod secrets!

    No tanks in the game do that......are you not modding your tanks properly?
  • How do you expect to change the GAC Matchmaking? As someone with 2 GLs won't have any changes against someone with 3 GLs

    This was an area that we had specific concerns over and we will definitely be monitoring how this affects match ups in Grand Arena, encounters in Journey Guide events and everywhere else. I have put together a report of top concerns and questions from today's announcement for the team. Many of them are ones I or our testers have already raised.
    Zumwan wrote: »
    So, after reading all the comments here, I wonder if the Devs will ever read them or if they care about our opinion.
    Doja and I have read through every comment in this thread and many others. We have taken the constructive feedback to the team. I understand these changes feel frustrating but we are listening and we had many long conversations about how this impacts players before we decided on this plan.

    Crumb, I have the utmost respect for you and Doja. You guys have the thankless job trying to control the dumpster fire the rest of the team/higher ups ignite.

    However I doubt these conversation you had with the other devs/higher ups are being received. When you need to tell them that it’s a legitimate concern about how players will basically lose matchups when there’s a mismatch in amount of GL’s now that non GL’s are being phased out/made impossible, that doesn’t need data collection. That either needs action to fix matchmaking or halt the elimination of non GL counters. I’m still confused as to how or why you guys even attempted to hide the GL counters behind the facade of defensive issues. If defense was the main problem then the addition of “excludes galactic legends” and other similar changes to ice non GL counters wouldn’t have been needed.

    When you introduce R9 only a few months after R8 and STILL have no alleviation of day one gear crunch to announce or have any answer for, it doesn’t feel like anyone at CG is listening. You guys said there would be data collected for gear economy back in November. 9 months isn’t enough? Come on, you guys are now making R7/R8 the base line reqs for even ships when there’s never been any kind of gear gate for them before.
    If you guys are insisting on pushing GL farms or these insane gear reqs for every new release then it’s time to fix the gear economy. It’s WAY overdue and the kicking the can down the road approach is just flat out insulting.

    This RA is hurting much more than it’s claiming to fix. I’m hoping there’s some kind of response this week but I’m not holding my breath. You guys may be hearing our concerns and feedback, but the higher ups and dev team certainly aren’t listening at all.
  • TNT117
    23 posts Member
    These changes are literally the worst news we've ever gotten in this game. There is going to be a mass exodus now. Probably will kill our guild. Really appreciate that, CG. You guys are the best!

    Also, make vids if you want, but I'm not about to watch a 15m long vid when I can just skim and read what I care about in 3m. So please, for the love of whatever fun may be left in this game, don't make vids the exclusive means of communicating stuff like this.
  • TVF wrote: »
    Whatelse73 wrote: »
    TVF wrote: »
    Anyone who thinks they won't be able to beat a GL with JML is using him wrong. Or didn't actually read the changes.

    As was stated, the power of JML is protecting his allies while they take down the other team. When it comes down to 1v1, JML loses or at best will timeout vs another GL but never win. His "allies" getting a nerf is problematic, but at the same time we don't know yet how bad the updates will be. (Just as much as we don't know that everything will be "fine" after the update.)

    If you are coming down to 1v1 you're doing it wrong.

    Sometimes it happens. Especially in 3v3, which is coming up fairly soon as I recall.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    SerylT2 wrote: »
    Ultimately these changes are utterly uncalled for. They are supposedly trying to fix something that people were generally happy with to begin with. When you go around doing that you only end up breaking things. This game has made a nice rebound in good will since the Vader rework and just about everything that followed... why tempt fate and risk damage now? The response to this Road Ahead should be more than enough warning to be like.. "Ehhhh... maybe we shouldn't mess up a good thing?"

    As many have said, a big part of the fun of this game is theory crafting. The defenders claim that new counters could be found post update.. but you are just going to dissuade people from even trying if they feel that if a counter is found and put out to the public, that C.G. will just nerf it into the ground the next possible chance.

    So while this has been an ongoing thing they wanted to do, and has been making things difficult to design around, the reason for "right now", from my understanding, is that r9 brought this to a head.
  • Speaking as someone who doesn't have a single character with even 1 relic yet there must surely be a rework on the gear grind soon. Increase the drops out lessen the requirements either way it needs to be seriously looked at as it feels almost impossible to build a good roster of well geared teams and then on top of that achieve relics. I've not been playing this game for anywhere near as long as some of you and don't really come up against any GLs in any of my matchmaking but this does just come across as a money grab. If you can't counter GLs then you are forced to go chasing one to remain somewhat competitive if you are meeting GLs in your matchmaking.
  • Making gls uncounterable by non gls is beyond ridiculous but I could deal with it if it wasn’t for the nerfs. Make gls better don’t make characters people have invested time and money into worse. The nerfs are what are going to cause people to quit. Especially ruining Vader, a character many people have and have spent a lot of money on. Ruining JKL is ridiculous. He might as well be a gl with his requirements. And now he’s now worth his requirements at all. Please cg I beg you guys to at least not nerf characters.
  • Paynerz wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who doesn't have a single character with even 1 relic yet there must surely be a rework on the gear grind soon. Increase the drops out lessen the requirements either way it needs to be seriously looked at as it feels almost impossible to build a good roster of well geared teams and then on top of that achieve relics. I've not been playing this game for anywhere near as long as some of you and don't really come up against any GLs in any of my matchmaking but this does just come across as a money grab. If you can't counter GLs then you are forced to go chasing one to remain somewhat competitive if you are meeting GLs in your matchmaking.

    that ain't happening XD
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