@EwokRampage ...on that crit -you're also talking about his max potential. Toons shouldn't be balanced against their max potential in the idea setup and scenario. That's with O up and adv. and a crit. Can't balance to max - would have to balance to his average expected hit - all things being considered (including when he's damage down). I've seen FOTP crit for <3k when he was damage down by Old Ben. That's a max star / gear TIE. Keep his adv. down and his double hits at a lower rate than Leia. Put a damage down on that guy and he becomes useless because that's all he does. He has no neg effects, no heal, no turn meter manipulation, no taunt, no leader skill...nothing. The guy just has damage...and he's got mediocre speed at best. His value will drop precipitously with a damage nerf because he brings no other skill to the table.
If we are realistic here FoTP almost always has advantage unless you just aren't damaging your opponent. Even with 30% instead of 45% chance on double tap he is still using two attacks 60% of the time, this isn't a nerf that even hits his physical damage stat so the gun down ability is still doing the same damage.
Love when he gets adv up....QGJ to the dispel rescue. Turn that in to a positive for my team. Same for Poe. He does get adv. up, but even DoTs planted on him can take that advantage away since it is removed when he's attacked. That's just part of the tactics in the battle. Keep his adv. down via hits, or dispel it, or hit him with a damage down toon. He's already vulnerable to having a lower double strike and there are toons that can counter it - it's built into his skill.
Everyone using the P2W QGJ/FOTP/X (OP Single Target) core will argue Poe is OP. When in reality it's their first road bump with the totally IMBA characters they're using.
Spot on.
Nerfing Poe will remove the only farmable recourse regular players have against these extreme high damage P2W squads.
I mean if you guys really really want Poe to not be nerfed sure you could do that. But all those p2w teams will continue to use Poe too. So the end game is everyone has Poe, whoever gets their poe to go first wins, who wants that a better idea is to nerf/fix the extremely op characters specifically that fotp that you keep mentioning, see how the meta develops and then make appropriate nerfs/buffs to the characters that become the meta at 70. I will tell you though gearing at 8 and 9 is a lot slower so the meta will change slower. Do you really want that Poe scenario to be the default for 1-2 months until they put out another patch?
Again, you're blowing Poe out of proportion.
The only teams that have trouble with taunts are the teams I keep mentioning.
Wahhh I have to attack a taunter with my OP characters.
Barely anyone is using him on my server and for good reason.
Everyone using the P2W QGJ/FOTP/X (OP Single Target) core will argue Poe is OP. When in reality it's their first road bump with the totally IMBA characters they're using.
Spot on.
Nerfing Poe will remove the only farmable recourse regular players have against these extreme high damage P2W squads.
I mean if you guys really really want Poe to not be nerfed sure you could do that. But all those p2w teams will continue to use Poe too. So the end game is everyone has Poe, whoever gets their poe to go first wins, who wants that a better idea is to nerf/fix the extremely op characters specifically that fotp that you keep mentioning, see how the meta develops and then make appropriate nerfs/buffs to the characters that become the meta at 70. I will tell you though gearing at 8 and 9 is a lot slower so the meta will change slower. Do you really want that Poe scenario to be the default for 1-2 months until they put out another patch?
Again, you're blowing Poe out of proportion.
The only teams that have trouble with taunts are the teams I keep mentioning.
Wahhh I have to attack a taunter with my OP characters.
Barely anyone is using him on my server and for good reason.
I developed the speed guide for this game I am telling if you if Poe gets 143 speed that means he goes before every aoe that exists period(except sid), there is no leader skill or other way around it. He will always reduce turn meter on your entire team so that your aoe team will not only be minus one character from death, poe team will be 50% on their way to the next turn. Trust me I want aoe to be in the meta too, I am not fighting you on this I am trying to help you. Not nerfing Poe is the end to all aoe in this game.
One thing I would say here is from your perspective as an attacker - yes he can get and keep adv. often. I see it. But that's not TIE's fault that the AI can't identify his weakness well. I intentionally save a QGJ dispel attack just for him ... or Poe for example. Or I'll attack him to keep his adv down or I prefer to use a damage down toon on him - that's best. But as an attacker, you are constructing teams that do the following:
1. Optimize his damage skill (Poe, Leia, Poggle, etc.)
2. Fight against an AI that can't expose his deficiencies well
3. Likely are fighting inferior opponents / teams in PVP OR teams that your build specifically counters really well and is tactically better than the team being attacked because...you can pick your battles and adjust your team.
So as an attacker...you will generally see "optimal" results much more often than if you couldn't see or adjust your team to the opponent AND didn't have the AI vs. human advantage. This gives the impression that any given toon is better than it really is because you are seeing it in a generally optimal state more often than not.
No one shows TIE when he's damage down from a Jinn leader + Old Ben mind tricks and he's without advantage. The guys looks pretty shabby, as many toons do, when at their worst.
First order tie pilot ...tanky ? I have it 3* (hard to farm) and level 6 gear he got 4k HP ...one shot from Luminara and he's dead or (what happened to me many times) Dooku lightning + Sidious aoe and he's dead
He's useless (imo) unless he gain alot of HP when he reach 5-6* but to reach that point you need to spend money on crystals
First order tie pilot ...tanky ? I have it 3* (hard to farm) and level 6 gear he got 4k HP ...one shot from Luminara and he's dead or (what happened to me many times) Dooku lightning + Sidious aoe and he's dead
He's useless (imo) unless he gain alot of HP when he reach 5-6* but to reach that point you need to spend money on crystals
He's about Dooku level health through 6*, but then at 7* for some reason - I think it's a bug - he gains a good bit of health. His agility actually goes down on his card that I recall and his health bump scales up much more than other toons when moving from one star to another. That's why I think he's potentially bugged in his progression. If anything...fix that if it's broken. Tanky though is also relative. Even Barriss now can be killed pretty quick.
As the update to level 70 looms near I would like to make a last ditch effort to share my opinion with the developers and forum about what I think a fair buff and nerf for the current class of characters would look like.
NERFS
Poe
At the highest level of arena many players are experiencing the influx of Poe. He is incredibly fast and has a taunt that lowers turn meter. Many battles at the high level are simply a matter of which Poe goes first. If you don't have Poe you are at a severe disadvantage. With the update to 70 Poe actually gets much much much worse. He now moves to a turn 7 attack(read team instinct speed guide to understand) at 143 speed. This means even with Leia and Dooku on an opposing team Poe can go first. This is unacceptable and game breaking. My nerf for Poe would consist of him having 1 less speed. This puts him back in turn 8. Making him go behind the top tier of speedsters and allowing some counter play against him where everyone just knocks him out before he goes. This is all you have to do to make Poe a balanced tank(still slightly OP) for the update to 70. Taking off %'s or messing with his skills is absolutely the wrong way to approach nerfing this champ.
First Order Tie Pilot
Being able to one shot someone consistently while being tanky is enough to warrant a nerf. Keep in mind FoTP is naturally getting a nerf when going to 70. He gets stuck in Gear 8 while everyone else increases. We just happen to get him in a very overpowered stage of his leveling process. The change I would like to see happen to him is just decrease the % chance his double tap has of activating. He is still slow and tanky, and should not be able to one shot anyone in this new patch unless they are incredibly weak or unprotected. By having even a 15% less chance to double tap puts very big ? on whether he should replace some other attackers that are also good, instead of always being the best damage pick regardless of synergies.
Leia
Leia actually doesn't need to be nerfed just fixed. As more characters move into turn 7 with Leia and Dooku their usefulness as the perfect filler pick deteriorate so she is naturally getting weaker in the move to level 70. Couple with the fact that her crit and heal will function correctly now makes her even less useful and brings her into the middle of the pack in terms of being a filler to a team. She will now function well in a rebel team and crit team, but isn't required for every team at high level play anymore.
Others
I really don't believe that any other character needs a nerf at this point. While you may say Sid with his last buff is overpowered, he really isn't. I actually like that he is fairly prominent as the best leader because it gives f2p characters a large benefit to be able to max him out and have him be a good leader for most of the team comps.
BUFFS
Mace Windu
Like the other recent post I agree that Mace's kit is very underwhelming and does not see any use in arena. They should really just wipe the slate clean with that character. What I would like to see with Mace's Kit.
1. A dramatic increase in speed preferably 143+ at 70, or at least above 140.
2. Get rid of the idea of him being a tank, the jedi have enough tanks.
3. He would be perfect as as support character, here are my idea on his skills.
a. Basic skill has high % chance of giving a low turn meter boost to his team, does bad to medium damage.
b. Special skill is single target medium to high damage skill that inflicts buff immunity, with a chance to spread it to one other enemy.
c.His Leader skill should be Potency 45% to all allies at max level.
d.His unique should give him some counter percentage, with a chance of also removing a single buff from the target.
He works well with counter jedi synergy, he has a good leader skill that a lot of teams could make use of, he is very anti-poe which is the flavor of the month at the moment, and he is not especially overpowered.
Ugnaught
Currently the worst character in the game. There are a few simple things they can do to make him semi viable. They need to give him a massive health boost so he doesn't get slaughtered when facing an actual droid team. His skills should at least give a high % debuff to the enemy team. My thoughts is actually making a new debuff just for him call Disadvantage, you have already seen the icon on Boss fights it allows any attacks on that specific enemy to bypass armor/resistance, like the opposite of advantage.
Ewoks/Tuskens/Clones
To make their synergies viable they need at least 1 or two more members to combine with. I would recommend just adding new characters that have these type of synergies. That would instantly make all the characters that use it more viable.
Scoundrels
Scoundrels are currently in dire straits at the moment. A lot of there characters use the thermal detonator skill which is just completely terrible in arena. Reduce the turn requirement by thermal detonator to go off by one. Also add the condition that if you throw a thermal detonator on someone who already has one they both immediately go off. When FoTP can take off 75% of your health in a basic attack, having the thermals go off while combating tenacity seems like a good equalizer. This would immediately make a scoundrel team viable in arena.
Any other thoughts on specific buff or nerfs I would love to hear feedback from the forum community I will try and add them into this post!
Great post and whole-heartedly agree with most of it.
I wrote that nasty Windu post on the gd and although my idea probably isn't the best, thematically he is the #2 jedi and debatebly the best lightsaber duelist in history.
He is unique in using Vaapad, his sole stance, which is 100% offense and risky, making him dance on the edges of the darkside while using an opponents darkness against him.
As much as I would like a Support Jedi added, Windu's entire character from the lore revolves around offense and being a leader.
I just want to add, to buffs.
Tanks. Tanks who lack a taunt in the game can be easily and absolutely ignored and saved until last since most tanks don't do a lot of damage.
Tanks without taunt have no safe way of absorbing damage for their team, since AIs targetting is next to RNG, and real players know to never take the tank down first, tanks need something new for them to have a viable place in the meta.
Chewy and Poe work as tanks due to the taunts. Maybe ST Han too, even though he has some of the weakest defensive stats in the game.
Savage Opress, although not tagged as a tank, suffers from this. He is a cool character that doesn't have any impact on the game as a meatbag, since he can easily be ignored since his contributions are neglible and never a priority.
Finn and Ben are labled as tanks, and though lacking taunts they have abilities that are threat enough to be targets to go for, allowing them to tank for their team.
Everyone using the P2W QGJ/FOTP/X (OP Single Target) core will argue Poe is OP. When in reality it's their first road bump with the totally IMBA characters they're using.
Spot on.
Nerfing Poe will remove the only farmable recourse regular players have against these extreme high damage P2W squads.
I mean if you guys really really want Poe to not be nerfed sure you could do that. But all those p2w teams will continue to use Poe too. So the end game is everyone has Poe, whoever gets their poe to go first wins, who wants that a better idea is to nerf/fix the extremely op characters specifically that fotp that you keep mentioning, see how the meta develops and then make appropriate nerfs/buffs to the characters that become the meta at 70. I will tell you though gearing at 8 and 9 is a lot slower so the meta will change slower. Do you really want that Poe scenario to be the default for 1-2 months until they put out another patch?
I keep telling you there are teams you can farm with f2p that will be amazing in 70 meta, droids, geo and poggle, hoth rebel scout and a bunch of others. You keep saying poe is your only hope but really he is not.
first order officer and QGJ can deal with Poe. But yes, it may turn out the way you just said, which benefits certain teams.
I would like to see some / all of the really slow characters buffed in speed to make them more viable personally. Do that with a smallish but significant damage decrease of 10% to 15% across the entire spectrum, or a similar HP buff and it gives a good baseline for more than just a heal, single target, or AoE meta. Control and counter attack teams need a spot as well, so having many different and viable options is healthy for the game both long and short term.
Also, balancing for what is currently end game *does* matter as we get arena rewards and crystals for the current end game, regardless of what the actual end game cap turns out to be.
QGJ needs a nerf too (lower or remove the damage bonus from his assist), but whale teams only care about Poe cause he hurts their p2w single target line ups
He's the only usable tank and it's a good thing they gave him the toolkit he has. We need more options like him to combat different strategies.
Edit: Plo Koon is easily a candidate for a buff. His second ability should have at least an 80% chance of offense down to be more on par with Old Ben.
Totally agree. Plo needs a buff. He needs a damage increase and decent speed. His abIL to remove buffs from opponents needs strengthened so he can be used to counter texams with pogle or Leia. I'd also like to see him get a special that will give him a chance to remove all positive effects from a single enemy anytime a team member gets a crit on that enemy
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
1) go first
2) taunt ability
2b) for two ***** turns
3) expose AoE
4) turn meter mangle
5) amazing tenacity
6) 15k+ hp
7) offense down 2 turns with 80% chance on enemies w/effect.
1) go first
2) taunt ability
2b) for two ***** turns
3) expose AoE
4) turn meter mangle
5) amazing tenacity
6) 15k+ hp
7) offense down 2 turns with 80% chance on enemies w/effect.
one ...trick....pony.....
Oh I forgot his unique leadership skill!
You also forgot he gains 5% of his max health whenever he resists detrimental effects...
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
After the player outrage and calls for refunds, i would be surprised if alot of nerfs came out. Fixes on already known issues i can see (leia), but flat nerfs are gonna leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Or it'll be a nerf where they say something like," skill not working as orignally intended, or doing more damage than intended," like how they stated on the resistance trooper. It would be nice if character attacks had some sort of displayed base damage amount, so we could see what intended damage output is. oh well, heres hoping for a good update
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
After Barriss gate, i doubt they will ever nerf a character they put on sale. It's actually works well for then because they can release an anti-poe character next for $50.
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
On the same boat, fix bugged characters yes, nerf I'm out.
I actually just went against one of your members teams who taunted first and had their entire team attack me turn 1 and I still won easily.
Their team comp: QGJ/Poe/FOTP/GS/Lumi
He also got some lucky damage assists.
Poggle is super good against these teams and makes Poe a nonissue in my experience.
You are talking about the current world whereas EwokRampage is talking about the new world where Poe will go ahead of everyone...
That still makes no sense though - the next lvl 70 is just another stopping point.
Not only are the stats that are leaked not final ... let's assume they ARE all legit - not all gear on the gear 8 tab will be open because some are likely to be locked >lvl 70. We won't know if Poe does get that additional speed until we see it. Even if he does...again, we still don't know true end game speeds and where Poe really fits in. We shouldn't nerf in the name of balance to a temporary stopping point so early in the game's lifecycle.
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
After the player outrage and calls for refunds, i would be surprised if alot of nerfs came out. Fixes on already known issues i can see (leia), but flat nerfs are gonna leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Or it'll be a nerf where they say something like," skill not working as orignally intended, or doing more damage than intended," like how they stated on the resistance trooper. It would be nice if character attacks had some sort of displayed base damage amount, so we could see what intended damage output is. oh well, heres hoping for a good update
I'm all for fixing bugs. I have a 6 almost 7* Princess and I'll be the first to admit she is broken and it does make her to powerful. She needs adjusted. But nerfing non broken characters before it's had extensive testing at the endgame just makes no sense. Im a firm believer in buffing weaker characters instead of nerfing powerful ones. Much easier to balance that way in my opinion.
I for one will not accept more nerfs. One time of me dropping my money & time on a hard to farm character and they make it "balanced" with all the easily farmable characters is the last day CG gets my money. You don't nerf anything until the level cap is reached and lots of testing has been done by the community and the developers to insure a even playing field between hard to earn characters and easy to earn characters. Barris I understand even tho I dropped 50 bucks. But FOTP? Poe? Lol what? Poe is a one trick pony. FOTP should be able to two shot anyone at endgame. What else is he good for? People complain about characters that only have one use yet say nothing of the characters that can fill multiple roles extremely well. Hopefully the developers pay no mind to the constant barrage of nerf posts as people will suck it up, learn and adapt. Just my 1 cent.
After Barriss gate, i doubt they will ever nerf a character they put on sale. It's actually works well for then because they can release an anti-poe character next for $50.
Not sure if it has been mentioned but mace windus basic attack shouldn't give turn meter bonus because with your proposed counter increase it would give your team too much turn meter because of the basic attack triggering from counter. You see this same thing when barris counters into healing your team and aayla secura
A) This logic of "thinking that things need to be balanced around 70 is a fallacy because the real cap isn't until 100, and that's when things should make sense" is stupid. Very, very stupid. The game will be 70 for months, we're all stuck playing it for that long, and there's no excuse for temporary imbalances. Each new level tier will be a new meta with things above average and below average in strength. If any of these things are actually causing experiences in the game to be extremely unpleasant due to there being no effective counterpoint to them, then they are probably problematic and deserving of attention.
Anyone making arguments about "P2W" characters at 70 that hasn't even considered the fact the current chromium premiums will likely be shifted out in favor of a new wave of premiums, meaning guys like QGJ are probably just weeks away from being F2P, are not constructing an argument a lot of us are even going to pay attention to.
C) It's become very clear that a lot of people in these forums are simply terrible at the art of theorycrafting. What Ewok is trying to do here is something you should all be happy for - he's attempting to assess problematic threats to the game that everyone will have to endure well before they become problems. The devs have the ability to do something about it now that inevitably means they don't have to retroactively "fix" it after the fact. Yeah, gear isn't actually in the game yet and they COULD change things around, but they never have before, and the likelihood they actually do it is super super low.
Pointing stuff out like the clear OP-ness of Poe being able to 100% drop Turn Meters as a first action ahead of even Dooku is an obviously valid concern to bring up. They have the power to do plenty about it now - they could simply change Poe's gear to not push him to the 143 mark at 70. That's seriously all they'd have to do and no one from our team would ever make so much as a squeak about it.
But unless you have players that use this data reliably and for the greater good actually say things about this before the problem becomes a problem, nothing gets done about it and it takes a forum of crybabies after the fact to make change take place. Is this really the world you want to live in? I agree with WhipiT, I want to live in a world where nerfs don't have to happen. Well, bringing this stuff up NOW is how you avoid that. Changing Poe BEFORE the patch is not a nerf at all, right? Stopping something from becoming a reality isn't the same as changing reality while it's current.
If you can't acknowledge the fact that Poe's ability is going to become very unfun to play against and deserves attention, it speaks volume to your ability to see the big picture about the game as a whole and to take off the glasses of "individual teams." It's shocking to me that you can try and make this seem like we're attacking Poe because we have some specific team he defeats. Are you kidding me? In the same breath you're making anti-Poe arguments about how "your team beat some other team so clearly Poe is a non-issue", which, in case you hadn't noticed (which you obviously haven't) is the most hypocritical statement possible to make given your prior statements.
Contrary to belief, our team studies ALL characters and ALL comps day in and day out. We have breakdowns of every single character based on stats not just to 70, but to level 100, and we use this to analyze comparisons and breakdowns across the board to try and spot strengths / weaknesses / issues etc. You don't see all of this, because you aren't on our team and we don't care about what you think of our work, but discrediting our research on Poe because of your individual assertions is ignoring an entire team of 40+ diligently putting work in to assessing the strongest comps and characters possible as a group for your own needless ends at making it seem like "you know better". Well, in this case, you don't.
Besides the one trick pony thing, I agree that unbroken chars need be left alone and not nerfed. Since we plan months in advance, anybneft eill open barris-like outrage for good reason.
@WhipiT, it's very noble to have a high started Leia and comment detaching from your benefit that it needs some fixing (not nerf, just obey specs). While on some post I lose you these posts show your character.
A possible non taunting tank solution is that they absorb 10% of dmg dealt to the rest of the team perhaps. Maybe this only takes effect when a solo target is hit so as to negate an aoe effect from compiling on the tank.
Someone in a diff post also suggested reducing dmg and healing across the board (by 50% they suggested though I think 25% may do the trick with the cap increase). This, imo, would solve the first turn win scenario in many cases as toons could live to see the light of day on their first full turn meter.
Nerfing strong players like FOTP is stu pid, he has very little armour if you fear him get a fast team get his **** out of there THATS ALL he has got is a hit. If all characters were same or similar imagine how boring the game would be!!! I like seeing a FOTP makes me shutter a bit, I have FOTP Maul, Ren, Who are you targeting?? Makes it more fun .. Tank up with a healer and a couple of hitters you now have a longer played out game esp if they are speedy!! So many out comes.. I'm running Han as a leader for his leader skills, his defence allows my back row get going Hans like a big punching bag!.. Nerfing characters is just stu pid.... Build a team to cope not all teams will be effective against all opposition
We love Poe for what he is - a somewhat tanky tank with a fast Taunt, a decent amount of offensive capability (expose is awesome) and Offense Down at a pretty high rate is quite useful. He also has a lot of Tenacity which means he's harder to dispel, so he's even better at his job. He's great.
We DON'T like that Poe has a ridiculously strong 100% guarantee 25% Turn Meter reduction attached to it. It's just completely unnecessary and is the sole reason things are becoming problematic.
There are a million ways to help alleviate the issues this causes. a) Change it so it's a % chance to proc and not a guarantee. At least this way, there are times when it's a blowout and times when it's not. b) Change his gear before the 70 patch to make sure he stays in round 8, instead of pushing him to 143 so he doesn't break round 7, or c) Remove this entirely and instead give him some other bonus, like a Defense Up team buff or something. Something really good and tanky and not a complete diss to the Turn Meter part.
You don't have to nerf someone just because you make a change. You can keep them at the same power level, or hell... even theoretically increase their power level, if it means removing a problem. The GUARANTEED Turn Meter reduction on the first turn is too strong. It was fine when he wasn't in the position of taking the first action (common strat was to Dooku stun him if you ran Dooku, although he has high Tenacity and would block it a lot of the time) since he was sharing round 8 with a lot of other characters and wouldn't RNG hit it very often, but round 7 is a far more elite club and he will get the first trigger far more often.
I actually just went against one of your members teams who taunted first and had their entire team attack me turn 1 and I still won easily.
Their team comp: QGJ/Poe/FOTP/GS/Lumi
He also got some lucky damage assists.
Poggle is super good against these teams and makes Poe a nonissue in my experience.
We won't know if Poe does get that additional speed until we see it. Even if he does...again, we still don't know true end game speeds and where Poe really fits in. We shouldn't nerf in the name of balance to a temporary stopping point so early in the game's lifecycle.
Taken from my post about Leader Speed Abilities not working at the moment on first round of actions:
But you can't take a toon and slap a speed leader on it and make it start the match ahead of other toons that are faster on their card. I hope they don't change the speed leaders to activate prior to the match as that would make meta very easy to see ... just speed leader the best ability and there's the game.
Replies
Love when he gets adv up....QGJ to the dispel rescue. Turn that in to a positive for my team. Same for Poe. He does get adv. up, but even DoTs planted on him can take that advantage away since it is removed when he's attacked. That's just part of the tactics in the battle. Keep his adv. down via hits, or dispel it, or hit him with a damage down toon. He's already vulnerable to having a lower double strike and there are toons that can counter it - it's built into his skill.
Again, you're blowing Poe out of proportion.
The only teams that have trouble with taunts are the teams I keep mentioning.
Wahhh I have to attack a taunter with my OP characters.
Barely anyone is using him on my server and for good reason.
I developed the speed guide for this game I am telling if you if Poe gets 143 speed that means he goes before every aoe that exists period(except sid), there is no leader skill or other way around it. He will always reduce turn meter on your entire team so that your aoe team will not only be minus one character from death, poe team will be 50% on their way to the next turn. Trust me I want aoe to be in the meta too, I am not fighting you on this I am trying to help you. Not nerfing Poe is the end to all aoe in this game.
1. Optimize his damage skill (Poe, Leia, Poggle, etc.)
2. Fight against an AI that can't expose his deficiencies well
3. Likely are fighting inferior opponents / teams in PVP OR teams that your build specifically counters really well and is tactically better than the team being attacked because...you can pick your battles and adjust your team.
So as an attacker...you will generally see "optimal" results much more often than if you couldn't see or adjust your team to the opponent AND didn't have the AI vs. human advantage. This gives the impression that any given toon is better than it really is because you are seeing it in a generally optimal state more often than not.
No one shows TIE when he's damage down from a Jinn leader + Old Ben mind tricks and he's without advantage. The guys looks pretty shabby, as many toons do, when at their worst.
He's useless (imo) unless he gain alot of HP when he reach 5-6* but to reach that point you need to spend money on crystals
Their team comp: QGJ/Poe/FOTP/GS/Lumi
He also got some lucky damage assists.
Poggle is super good against these teams and makes Poe a nonissue in my experience.
He's about Dooku level health through 6*, but then at 7* for some reason - I think it's a bug - he gains a good bit of health. His agility actually goes down on his card that I recall and his health bump scales up much more than other toons when moving from one star to another. That's why I think he's potentially bugged in his progression. If anything...fix that if it's broken. Tanky though is also relative. Even Barriss now can be killed pretty quick.
Great post and whole-heartedly agree with most of it.
I wrote that nasty Windu post on the gd and although my idea probably isn't the best, thematically he is the #2 jedi and debatebly the best lightsaber duelist in history.
He is unique in using Vaapad, his sole stance, which is 100% offense and risky, making him dance on the edges of the darkside while using an opponents darkness against him.
As much as I would like a Support Jedi added, Windu's entire character from the lore revolves around offense and being a leader.
I just want to add, to buffs.
Tanks. Tanks who lack a taunt in the game can be easily and absolutely ignored and saved until last since most tanks don't do a lot of damage.
Tanks without taunt have no safe way of absorbing damage for their team, since AIs targetting is next to RNG, and real players know to never take the tank down first, tanks need something new for them to have a viable place in the meta.
Chewy and Poe work as tanks due to the taunts. Maybe ST Han too, even though he has some of the weakest defensive stats in the game.
Savage Opress, although not tagged as a tank, suffers from this. He is a cool character that doesn't have any impact on the game as a meatbag, since he can easily be ignored since his contributions are neglible and never a priority.
Finn and Ben are labled as tanks, and though lacking taunts they have abilities that are threat enough to be targets to go for, allowing them to tank for their team.
You are talking about the current world whereas EwokRampage is talking about the new world where Poe will go ahead of everyone...
https://www.reddit.com/r/SWGalaxyOfHeroes/comments/3zxzi2/swgohcantina_presents_level_70_stats/cypy20u?context=3
first order officer and QGJ can deal with Poe. But yes, it may turn out the way you just said, which benefits certain teams.
Also, balancing for what is currently end game *does* matter as we get arena rewards and crystals for the current end game, regardless of what the actual end game cap turns out to be.
Totally agree. Plo needs a buff. He needs a damage increase and decent speed. His abIL to remove buffs from opponents needs strengthened so he can be used to counter texams with pogle or Leia. I'd also like to see him get a special that will give him a chance to remove all positive effects from a single enemy anytime a team member gets a crit on that enemy
Sure one trick:
1) go first
2) taunt ability
2b) for two ***** turns
3) expose AoE
4) turn meter mangle
5) amazing tenacity
6) 15k+ hp
7) offense down 2 turns with 80% chance on enemies w/effect.
one ...trick....pony.....
Oh I forgot his unique leadership skill!
You also forgot he gains 5% of his max health whenever he resists detrimental effects...
After the player outrage and calls for refunds, i would be surprised if alot of nerfs came out. Fixes on already known issues i can see (leia), but flat nerfs are gonna leave people with a bad taste in their mouth. Or it'll be a nerf where they say something like," skill not working as orignally intended, or doing more damage than intended," like how they stated on the resistance trooper. It would be nice if character attacks had some sort of displayed base damage amount, so we could see what intended damage output is. oh well, heres hoping for a good update
On the same boat, fix bugged characters yes, nerf I'm out.
That still makes no sense though - the next lvl 70 is just another stopping point.
Not only are the stats that are leaked not final ... let's assume they ARE all legit - not all gear on the gear 8 tab will be open because some are likely to be locked >lvl 70. We won't know if Poe does get that additional speed until we see it. Even if he does...again, we still don't know true end game speeds and where Poe really fits in. We shouldn't nerf in the name of balance to a temporary stopping point so early in the game's lifecycle.
I'm all for fixing bugs. I have a 6 almost 7* Princess and I'll be the first to admit she is broken and it does make her to powerful. She needs adjusted. But nerfing non broken characters before it's had extensive testing at the endgame just makes no sense. Im a firm believer in buffing weaker characters instead of nerfing powerful ones. Much easier to balance that way in my opinion.
Lol right!!
They really messed up.
C) It's become very clear that a lot of people in these forums are simply terrible at the art of theorycrafting. What Ewok is trying to do here is something you should all be happy for - he's attempting to assess problematic threats to the game that everyone will have to endure well before they become problems. The devs have the ability to do something about it now that inevitably means they don't have to retroactively "fix" it after the fact. Yeah, gear isn't actually in the game yet and they COULD change things around, but they never have before, and the likelihood they actually do it is super super low.
Pointing stuff out like the clear OP-ness of Poe being able to 100% drop Turn Meters as a first action ahead of even Dooku is an obviously valid concern to bring up. They have the power to do plenty about it now - they could simply change Poe's gear to not push him to the 143 mark at 70. That's seriously all they'd have to do and no one from our team would ever make so much as a squeak about it.
But unless you have players that use this data reliably and for the greater good actually say things about this before the problem becomes a problem, nothing gets done about it and it takes a forum of crybabies after the fact to make change take place. Is this really the world you want to live in? I agree with WhipiT, I want to live in a world where nerfs don't have to happen. Well, bringing this stuff up NOW is how you avoid that. Changing Poe BEFORE the patch is not a nerf at all, right? Stopping something from becoming a reality isn't the same as changing reality while it's current.
If you can't acknowledge the fact that Poe's ability is going to become very unfun to play against and deserves attention, it speaks volume to your ability to see the big picture about the game as a whole and to take off the glasses of "individual teams." It's shocking to me that you can try and make this seem like we're attacking Poe because we have some specific team he defeats. Are you kidding me? In the same breath you're making anti-Poe arguments about how "your team beat some other team so clearly Poe is a non-issue", which, in case you hadn't noticed (which you obviously haven't) is the most hypocritical statement possible to make given your prior statements.
Contrary to belief, our team studies ALL characters and ALL comps day in and day out. We have breakdowns of every single character based on stats not just to 70, but to level 100, and we use this to analyze comparisons and breakdowns across the board to try and spot strengths / weaknesses / issues etc. You don't see all of this, because you aren't on our team and we don't care about what you think of our work, but discrediting our research on Poe because of your individual assertions is ignoring an entire team of 40+ diligently putting work in to assessing the strongest comps and characters possible as a group for your own needless ends at making it seem like "you know better". Well, in this case, you don't.
@WhipiT, it's very noble to have a high started Leia and comment detaching from your benefit that it needs some fixing (not nerf, just obey specs). While on some post I lose you these posts show your character.
Someone in a diff post also suggested reducing dmg and healing across the board (by 50% they suggested though I think 25% may do the trick with the cap increase). This, imo, would solve the first turn win scenario in many cases as toons could live to see the light of day on their first full turn meter.
We DON'T like that Poe has a ridiculously strong 100% guarantee 25% Turn Meter reduction attached to it. It's just completely unnecessary and is the sole reason things are becoming problematic.
There are a million ways to help alleviate the issues this causes. a) Change it so it's a % chance to proc and not a guarantee. At least this way, there are times when it's a blowout and times when it's not. b) Change his gear before the 70 patch to make sure he stays in round 8, instead of pushing him to 143 so he doesn't break round 7, or c) Remove this entirely and instead give him some other bonus, like a Defense Up team buff or something. Something really good and tanky and not a complete diss to the Turn Meter part.
You don't have to nerf someone just because you make a change. You can keep them at the same power level, or hell... even theoretically increase their power level, if it means removing a problem. The GUARANTEED Turn Meter reduction on the first turn is too strong. It was fine when he wasn't in the position of taking the first action (common strat was to Dooku stun him if you ran Dooku, although he has high Tenacity and would block it a lot of the time) since he was sharing round 8 with a lot of other characters and wouldn't RNG hit it very often, but round 7 is a far more elite club and he will get the first trigger far more often.
Taken from my post about Leader Speed Abilities not working at the moment on first round of actions: