When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
It is part 7 not part 1, if you've never seen star wars you shouldn't watch this one
I disagree. Several people involved in the making of the movie explicitly stated that they hoped the movie would bring SW to a whole new generation.
Plus...would you really recommend that someone start watching SW with TPM and not ANH?
As long as it was in white plastic uniforms or orange flight suits all the characters could turn to camera and start doing a drag act cabaret number and I would still go doolally!
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
Oh I found your page 1 arguments.
Piloting a pod racer isn't equivalent to mind tricking. We KNOW that force sensitivity manifests itself without training, usually by gifting an individual with things like quicker reflexes (seen also with Chirrut, who is similarly untrained though has had more force experience through meditation), the kind needed for pod racing. It should not be gifting people force powers that take everyone else years of practice to master.
Same goes for Luke. His force sensitivity undoubtedly makes him a better pilot and a better shot. Further, it is stated multiple times throughout the movie that Luke is a gifted pilot. And blocking three shots from a training droid isn't very impressive, especially since we see him get hit as well immediately preceding.
Starkiller does literally that one thing before training. And pulling a lightsaber from Vader's hand, while impressive, is neither OP for a gifted force sensitive child nor was it an ability gifted to him solely to advance the plot of the game.
Revan is probably the most OP character ever besides EU Luke, but you would think that a body THAT attuned to the force would develop something akin to muscle memory to help restore his abilities. After all, the force is not purely mental, it enhances physical abilities and connects to the spirit as well as the mind. Erasing the mind would not interrupt a force connection so fully as to make Revan incapable of recovering his abilities.
I know less about the Solo Twins but a two way connection is not unheard of even within canon. Leia remembers Padme despite Padme's death while Leia was like 5 minutes old. This can only be due to a force connection to her mother. Had Padme survived and been force sensitive like Leia, the Skywalker twins could have had a similar connection to their mother. We do know that familial connections among force users are common in SW, since Vader uses it with Luke multiple times and Luke uses it with an (untrained) Leia. This means that likely only one party in the connection need be aware of their force powers to use such a force-connection.
To be quite clear, my problem isn't with Rey OR Star Wars, it is with lazy story-telling. The accusation that I have a problem with SW is both a red herring and, to a lesser extent, ad hominem in nature. Either makes the statement a logical fallacy regardless of its truth or untruth.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
I just argued that point - so why does my argument not bear any logic to you. Shall I say it another way for you, ill try not to be too patronizing towards you.
Thanks for managing to barely tone back your patronization, it must be quite the chore for someone of your obvious intellect to do while interacting with us plebs on a message board.
Lets say there is a bully in school and he wants to punch you and you run away - did you win the fight in the playground or are all the other children going to tell you that you are a coward and ran away - or do you believe in your heart that you won the fight?
You should work on making sense if you'd like to continue to be so condescending. This is an absolutely terrible analogy, it fails on pretty much every level.
I'll give you one that works though, while staying on topic:
The Empire killed every single member of the Rogue One mission, while taking minimal casualties themselves. When the big guns came out, the Rebels ran away leaving numerous ground troopers and pilots stranded, leaving them to almost certain death or capture by the Empire.
Who won the fight?
Again you are not making any sense - if you count in all those factors - Ahsoka saves Ezra & Kanan and prevents Vader from obtaining the holocron, holds him off long enough to some how break away from their dual alive - then yes I agree with you that is a victory and you R1 logice certainly applies to that point.
I am arguing what @supercat wrote: "I count it as bested if Vader didn’t kill Ezra and Kanan because they should’ve been crushed."
This statement is not anything to do with Ahsoka's victory at all and therefore your R1 logic does not apply.
He is stating that Kanan and Ezra are weaker than Vader and because he did not kill them he lost the fight.
Ahsoka's intervention and distraction of Vader had nothing to do with Kanan and Ezra doing anything - other than run away from a fight they cannot win.
Additionally, Vader would have ripped the holocron out of their hands with the Force before Ahsoka intervened - so again these are Ahsoka's victories not anything achieved by Ezra or Kanan.
That is my point.
The only thing I can say to your point is this: We do not see the final portion of Ahsoka and Vader's duel. Yes Ahsoka accomplished her goals (I am not disputing that) but from a point of strength only, Vader was seen striding out of the sith temple like a champ with his head held high, where Ahsoka was limping away into a dark corridor.
From what we saw it was clear that Vader "won the dual" I am not talking about achieving goals or the bigger picture I am talking about a simple dual.
Vader's concentration of pulling the holocron away from Ezra and Kanan allowed Ahsoka to get a sneaky strike in on Vader (she may have missed her target - not killing him or more likely wanted to confirm Vader's identitiy) Either way a sucker punch is not a fair fight. From that moment forward their fight was a fair one and Vader won.
All side objectives aside, if you force your opponent to retreat, you won the fight.
Side objectives are exactly that, on the side.
Who determines what's the main objective and what's the side objective? You or the character themselves?
I never specifically said Ahsoka "won the fight," since my original reply was to someone saying "Vader bested Ahsoka," which implies more then just the outcome of duel.
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
It is part 7 not part 1, if you've never seen star wars you shouldn't watch this one
I disagree. Several people involved in the making of the movie explicitly stated that they hoped the movie would bring SW to a whole new generation.
Plus...would you really recommend that someone start watching SW with TPM and not ANH?
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ mother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ slmother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ mother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
...
Or are they?
The Empire controlled all records and re-wrote history as they saw fit to better control the galaxy - how different history would be and how would we even remember WW2 if the Germans won the war?
Read 1984 by George Orwell - that is exactly what this book is about - control. And Big Brother controls the records of the past/history making people believe only what they are meant to believe even if it contradicts what everyone knew to be true only a day prior. Its the same thing.
So it is very likely that many of the populace in the galaxy remember anything or know anything about the Jedi, especially any details into their powers and training.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ mother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
...
Or are they?
The Empire controlled all records and re-wrote history as they saw fit to better control the galaxy - how different history would be and how would we even remember WW2 if the Germans won the war?
Read 1984 by George Orwell - that is exactly what this book is about - control. And Big Brother controls the records of the past/history making people believe only what they are meant to believe even if it contradicts what everyone knew to be true only a day prior. Its the same thing.
So it is very likely that many of the populace in the galaxy remember anything or know anything about the Jedi, especially any details into their powers and training.
I guess... except:
- the empire lost
- Like Skywalker went and started a Jedi school that was a spectacular failure
- Darth Vader was loyal to that ‘failing religion’ to a fault (or whatever mr. choking guy said in ANH before he became mr. choking guy)
- There were force sensitive people still running around the galaxy, like Rey and like Kylo Ren
- Rey lived on a planet with a bunch of old trashed Empire equipment. Presumably somebody on Jakku would have known about why all that crap was lying around
Also:
- as soon as an opportunity arose, Winston Smith exploited it to practice some form of autonomy. That’s what got him into trouble in the first place.
- While the **** tried to wipe an entire group message of people off the planet, they also failed and entire foundations and movements were set up to try restore that history (Yad Vashem)
- At the height of Christian expansionism, we still heard about Zeus and other myths
- In a sense, the most forgotten people that I can think of are the Beothuk and even then you’ll hear about them from time to time.
The Jedi were around for 1000s of years and it’s a big galaxy and its pretty hard to really erase that much info: that’s why most dictators will try to reframe the info - fake news etc., I imagine more that Palpatine would have tried to frame the Jedi as evil, not that they didn’t exist.
Rey was a straight up Mary Sue. I don't care how powerful she is meant to be, she shouldn't be able to successfully use a jedi mind trick on her 3rd try without even really knowing anything about the force.
No. She's not. Of all the arguments against TFA this is the one that bothers me the most.
Anakin - uses force precognition to pilot podracers (a thing a Jedi says humans generally can't do) before he knows the force is even a thing.
Luke - Recieves the profound training of an old man telling him to "stretch out with [his] feelings" and proceeds to blindly block three blaster bolts and bend a full speed torpedo 90 degrees down a two meter tube, a feet that's "impossible, even for a computer"
Starkiller - Rips the lightsaber out of Darth Vader's hand (!) when he's like 2 years old.
Reven - Has his mind completely wiped and proceeds to relearn all his abilities and come back even stronger with minimal (if any) training.
Solo twins (Old EU) - have a two way connection with their mother in utero... among multiple other feats before they are sent off to study with their uncle.
Rey is not a Mary Sue. In fact the force abilities she accomplishes are straight up tame compared to some of the things other powerful force users accomplish with little to no training (the Jedi taught mind trick to younglings... which seems like a terrible idea, but that's neither here nor there). If you have a problem with the things Rey does, you don't have a problem with Rey, you have a problem with Star Wars...
What about using Jedi Mind Tricks, and mind-reading Kylo? That scene is the main source of the Mary Sue argument. Remember, Rey has had NO training and barely knows what the Force is.
Rey is around twenty years old living on an outpost for scavengers, smugglers, deserters and scoundrels. She may not know the ways of the force, but she has had to of heard rumors about its power and uses. It’s not that big of a leap for her to have heard a rumor that the Jedi can influence people and read minds. In the dire situation of her captivity she thought “why not give it a try” and lo and behold it worked. She had experienced the force calling out at that point so she had a sense of it.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ mother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
...
Or are they?
The Empire controlled all records and re-wrote history as they saw fit to better control the galaxy - how different history would be and how would we even remember WW2 if the Germans won the war?
Read 1984 by George Orwell - that is exactly what this book is about - control. And Big Brother controls the records of the past/history making people believe only what they are meant to believe even if it contradicts what everyone knew to be true only a day prior. Its the same thing.
So it is very likely that many of the populace in the galaxy remember anything or know anything about the Jedi, especially any details into their powers and training.
I guess... except:
- the empire lost
- Like Skywalker went and started a Jedi school that was a spectacular failure
- Darth Vader was loyal to that ‘failing religion’ to a fault (or whatever mr. choking guy said in ANH before he became mr. choking guy)
- There were force sensitive people still running around the galaxy, like Rey and like Kylo Ren
- Rey lived on a planet with a bunch of old trashed Empire equipment. Presumably somebody on Jakku would have known about why all that **** was lying around
Also:
- as soon as an opportunity arose, Winston Smith exploited it to practice some form of autonomy. That’s what got him into trouble in the first place.
- While the **** tried to wipe an entire group message of people off the planet, they also failed and entire foundations and movements were set up to try restore that history (Yad Vashem)
- At the height of Christian expansionism, we still heard about Zeus and other myths
- In a sense, the most forgotten people that I can think of are the Beothuk and even then you’ll hear about them from time to time.
The Jedi were around for 1000s of years and it’s a big galaxy and its pretty hard to really erase that much info: that’s why most dictators will try to reframe the info - fake news etc., I imagine more that Palpatine would have tried to frame the Jedi as evil, not that they didn’t exist.
The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy. Anyone who DID remember the jedi was convinced that they were evil.
- the empire lost - The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy.
- Like Skywalker went and started a Jedi school that was a spectacular failure - he slowly gained students, the Jedi had to slowly return to correct the thinking of a galaxy forced by the empire that the jedi were evil, not to mention it would take time to find appropriate force sensitives and train them as jedi - simply not enough time for luke to do this passed.
- Darth Vader was loyal to that ‘failing religion’ to a fault (or whatever mr. choking guy said in ANH before he became mr. choking guy) - The Empire was aware of the Jedi. Empire knowledge of Jedi compared to what was fed to the rest of the galaxy was very different. The empire had teams of special agents solely trained to hunt down and eradicate the jedi.
-
- There were force sensitive people still running around the galaxy, like Rey and like Kylo Ren - Yes but was Luke aware he was Jedi material before he met Old Ben. Did little Ani believe he was Jedi material because he could fix things and drive a pod? People who are force sensitive realise they are different or have some unexplained advatages - they do not know or are aware of the force or think they could ever have the power of a fully trained jedi.
- Rey lived on a planet with a bunch of old trashed Empire equipment. Presumably somebody on Jakku would have known about why all that **** was lying around - no one disputes that there was a galactic civil war between the Empire and the Rebellion and eventually the Empire fell - what point are you trying to make here?
Also:
- as soon as an opportunity arose, Winston Smith exploited it to practice some form of autonomy. That’s what got him into trouble in the first place. -
- Yes and likely anyone who did the same against the Empire was executed, otherwise the Rebels and the Empire would have lived peacefully with one another.
-
- While the **** tried to wipe an entire group message of people off the planet, they also failed and entire foundations and movements were set up to try restore that history (Yad Vashem) - The war of Germany (N.A.Z1s) to gain power over the globe was ongoing - they never won. The Empire had won and ruled the galaxy for 20 odd years. Only once the Empire was in control for at least 17 years or so did a rebellion rise up to a power big enough that could challenge the Empire. The Empire already had its clutches on the galaxy and began their indoctrination of the public. I think it likely that if the N.A.Z1s had won WW2 we would not have even heard about the likes of Yad Vashem.
- At the height of Christian expansionism, we still heard about Zeus and other myths - Exactly...Myths, which is what Rey believes the Jedi to be. Does anyone worship the old Gods of Olympus - even in Greece today? NO. Same with Star Wars there were no practicing jedi (other than luke's small destroyed academy that we have already covered).
- In a sense, the most forgotten people that I can think of are the Beothuk and even then you’ll hear about them from time to time. Same answer as per "myths" above - you hear about them but lack any real detail. If they practiced the force, could you suddenly master the use of their powers as Rey did with no training?
The Jedi were around for 1000s of years and it’s a big galaxy and its pretty hard to really erase that much info: that’s why most dictators will try to reframe the info - fake news etc., I imagine more that Palpatine would have tried to frame the Jedi as evil, not that they didn’t exist. - To this I give the same answer as @Thor_Odinson1 - "The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy. Anyone who DID remember the jedi was convinced that they were evil". And my previous answer re: 1984 controlling records of past and history to control the populace.
This game is **** garbage now. Ibiza places of power challenge every time I play it and now it **** can’t get past the third level this game **** sucks now
When I think about it, it's a beat for beat repackaging of A New Hope except that this time the main character is a Mary Sue.
AND it doesn't even tell a complete story. It just cuts off at the end. If this were just a regular movie, we would be ****. But it's Star Wars. So we like it anyway.
Thing is, Disney knows we're all gonna see the next one! You shouldn't leave almost all of your major plot lines unsolved to force us to watch the next movie when you know we are gonna pay to see it anyway! It's lazy story writing!
The only reason I really liked the movie is because it's a continuation of a story and a franchise that I already know that I love.
If you showed that movie to someone who had never seen a SW film, would they think it was so great?
Sure it had some good acting and awesome effects but was the story complete and were the characters compelling?
Think:
If you hadn't seen Han shooting first and taking names in the OT, would you really care that much when he dies?
If you didn't know that Luke blew up the first DS or redeemed a hardened Sith Lord in the OT wouldn't you be confused about why everyone is looking for him?
Why should you care about Rey when she never overcomes any difficulties and instead is gifted every ability she needs out of nowhere as the plot requires it?
Do you laugh at Han saying "That's not how the force works!" If you haven't seen the other movies to know how it does work?
I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the movie, but it was well received because it was based on a proven formula (ANH) and teased you with nostalgia as it went on, oh and it's SW. I will be tremendously disappointed if The Last Jedi doesn't improve.
Which, to improve on TFA, needs these 3 things:
1. Rey needs to actually have meaningful character development instead of just dropping new force powers like Westbrook drops Triple-Doubles.
2. It needs to tell a complete story. Don't just cut the movie at a random point at the end so I have no feelings of resolution.
3. It CANNOT use nostalgia as a key selling point. That will only work once. After the first time it's just tired tropes and people will know that Disney has no interest in original storytelling but only in pumping out sequels for the money.
IMHO, The Force Awakens was garbage. I will begrudgingly watching the next. But don't get your New Hopes up, because they planned 3 sequels. Expect an Empire size cliff hanger to strike back. It'll be like Pirates of the Caribbean without Johnny Depp.
Lol just when I thought this thread had died someone goes and brings it back.
Like Al Pacino from the Godfather part 3 (This is where I wish I knew how to add a Gif, lol).
I was gonna try to help you out with that @Boo but then I realized your link was to a swgoh.gg profile.
Or is that always on your posts...?
Ya that's my signature line - so if anyone here ever questions or wants to look at my roster then its always available.
But thanks for your try, lol
You're my boy Boo!
Haha! - its weird though, my gaming profile for Xbox etc even this game is "Juzzyforce" but apparently that strange name was taken on the forums so had to go by the first thing that popped into my head - "Boo" - that's why my signature line name is different from my forum name - confuses the hec outa my guild for sure, lol
This game is so **** trash, four-star Kylo Ren beats all of my seven star Jedis **** this game
Stars do almost nothing, it's all about gear/abilities/mods.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
Replies
I disagree. Several people involved in the making of the movie explicitly stated that they hoped the movie would bring SW to a whole new generation.
Plus...would you really recommend that someone start watching SW with TPM and not ANH?
Oh I found your page 1 arguments.
Piloting a pod racer isn't equivalent to mind tricking. We KNOW that force sensitivity manifests itself without training, usually by gifting an individual with things like quicker reflexes (seen also with Chirrut, who is similarly untrained though has had more force experience through meditation), the kind needed for pod racing. It should not be gifting people force powers that take everyone else years of practice to master.
Same goes for Luke. His force sensitivity undoubtedly makes him a better pilot and a better shot. Further, it is stated multiple times throughout the movie that Luke is a gifted pilot. And blocking three shots from a training droid isn't very impressive, especially since we see him get hit as well immediately preceding.
Starkiller does literally that one thing before training. And pulling a lightsaber from Vader's hand, while impressive, is neither OP for a gifted force sensitive child nor was it an ability gifted to him solely to advance the plot of the game.
Revan is probably the most OP character ever besides EU Luke, but you would think that a body THAT attuned to the force would develop something akin to muscle memory to help restore his abilities. After all, the force is not purely mental, it enhances physical abilities and connects to the spirit as well as the mind. Erasing the mind would not interrupt a force connection so fully as to make Revan incapable of recovering his abilities.
I know less about the Solo Twins but a two way connection is not unheard of even within canon. Leia remembers Padme despite Padme's death while Leia was like 5 minutes old. This can only be due to a force connection to her mother. Had Padme survived and been force sensitive like Leia, the Skywalker twins could have had a similar connection to their mother. We do know that familial connections among force users are common in SW, since Vader uses it with Luke multiple times and Luke uses it with an (untrained) Leia. This means that likely only one party in the connection need be aware of their force powers to use such a force-connection.
To be quite clear, my problem isn't with Rey OR Star Wars, it is with lazy story-telling. The accusation that I have a problem with SW is both a red herring and, to a lesser extent, ad hominem in nature. Either makes the statement a logical fallacy regardless of its truth or untruth.
She straight up says she thought the force and the jedi were myths. Han has to tell her its true. She didn't even know they were real, so I find it highly unlikely that she knew many specifics about force powers.
Again you are not making any sense - if you count in all those factors - Ahsoka saves Ezra & Kanan and prevents Vader from obtaining the holocron, holds him off long enough to some how break away from their dual alive - then yes I agree with you that is a victory and you R1 logice certainly applies to that point.
I am arguing what @supercat wrote: "I count it as bested if Vader didn’t kill Ezra and Kanan because they should’ve been crushed."
This statement is not anything to do with Ahsoka's victory at all and therefore your R1 logic does not apply.
He is stating that Kanan and Ezra are weaker than Vader and because he did not kill them he lost the fight.
Ahsoka's intervention and distraction of Vader had nothing to do with Kanan and Ezra doing anything - other than run away from a fight they cannot win.
Additionally, Vader would have ripped the holocron out of their hands with the Force before Ahsoka intervened - so again these are Ahsoka's victories not anything achieved by Ezra or Kanan.
That is my point.
The only thing I can say to your point is this: We do not see the final portion of Ahsoka and Vader's duel. Yes Ahsoka accomplished her goals (I am not disputing that) but from a point of strength only, Vader was seen striding out of the sith temple like a champ with his head held high, where Ahsoka was limping away into a dark corridor.
From what we saw it was clear that Vader "won the dual" I am not talking about achieving goals or the bigger picture I am talking about a simple dual.
Vader's concentration of pulling the holocron away from Ezra and Kanan allowed Ahsoka to get a sneaky strike in on Vader (she may have missed her target - not killing him or more likely wanted to confirm Vader's identitiy) Either way a sucker punch is not a fair fight. From that moment forward their fight was a fair one and Vader won.
That's my point.
Side objectives are exactly that, on the side.
Who determines what's the main objective and what's the side objective? You or the character themselves?
I never specifically said Ahsoka "won the fight," since my original reply was to someone saying "Vader bested Ahsoka," which implies more then just the outcome of duel.
I wouldn’t
Zeus can throw lightning bolts and change into animals. Hercules was super-strong. Achilles’ mother should have dipped him twice. Or: Wolverine has a healing power and adamantium claws. Super man can leap tall buildings in a single bound. Professor X can control minds. I know what they can do even if they’re not real
...
Or are they?
Fictional characters/ myths
The Empire controlled all records and re-wrote history as they saw fit to better control the galaxy - how different history would be and how would we even remember WW2 if the Germans won the war?
Read 1984 by George Orwell - that is exactly what this book is about - control. And Big Brother controls the records of the past/history making people believe only what they are meant to believe even if it contradicts what everyone knew to be true only a day prior. Its the same thing.
So it is very likely that many of the populace in the galaxy remember anything or know anything about the Jedi, especially any details into their powers and training.
I guess... except:
- the empire lost
- Like Skywalker went and started a Jedi school that was a spectacular failure
- Darth Vader was loyal to that ‘failing religion’ to a fault (or whatever mr. choking guy said in ANH before he became mr. choking guy)
- There were force sensitive people still running around the galaxy, like Rey and like Kylo Ren
- Rey lived on a planet with a bunch of old trashed Empire equipment. Presumably somebody on Jakku would have known about why all that crap was lying around
Also:
- as soon as an opportunity arose, Winston Smith exploited it to practice some form of autonomy. That’s what got him into trouble in the first place.
- While the **** tried to wipe an entire group message of people off the planet, they also failed and entire foundations and movements were set up to try restore that history (Yad Vashem)
- At the height of Christian expansionism, we still heard about Zeus and other myths
- In a sense, the most forgotten people that I can think of are the Beothuk and even then you’ll hear about them from time to time.
The Jedi were around for 1000s of years and it’s a big galaxy and its pretty hard to really erase that much info: that’s why most dictators will try to reframe the info - fake news etc., I imagine more that Palpatine would have tried to frame the Jedi as evil, not that they didn’t exist.
The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy. Anyone who DID remember the jedi was convinced that they were evil.
- the empire lost -
The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy.
- Like Skywalker went and started a Jedi school that was a spectacular failure -
he slowly gained students, the Jedi had to slowly return to correct the thinking of a galaxy forced by the empire that the jedi were evil, not to mention it would take time to find appropriate force sensitives and train them as jedi - simply not enough time for luke to do this passed.
- Darth Vader was loyal to that ‘failing religion’ to a fault (or whatever mr. choking guy said in ANH before he became mr. choking guy) -
The Empire was aware of the Jedi. Empire knowledge of Jedi compared to what was fed to the rest of the galaxy was very different. The empire had teams of special agents solely trained to hunt down and eradicate the jedi.
-
- There were force sensitive people still running around the galaxy, like Rey and like Kylo Ren -
Yes but was Luke aware he was Jedi material before he met Old Ben. Did little Ani believe he was Jedi material because he could fix things and drive a pod? People who are force sensitive realise they are different or have some unexplained advatages - they do not know or are aware of the force or think they could ever have the power of a fully trained jedi.
- Rey lived on a planet with a bunch of old trashed Empire equipment. Presumably somebody on Jakku would have known about why all that **** was lying around -
no one disputes that there was a galactic civil war between the Empire and the Rebellion and eventually the Empire fell - what point are you trying to make here?
Also:
- as soon as an opportunity arose, Winston Smith exploited it to practice some form of autonomy. That’s what got him into trouble in the first place. -
- Yes and likely anyone who did the same against the Empire was executed, otherwise the Rebels and the Empire would have lived peacefully with one another.
-
- While the **** tried to wipe an entire group message of people off the planet, they also failed and entire foundations and movements were set up to try restore that history (Yad Vashem) -
The war of Germany (N.A.Z1s) to gain power over the globe was ongoing - they never won. The Empire had won and ruled the galaxy for 20 odd years. Only once the Empire was in control for at least 17 years or so did a rebellion rise up to a power big enough that could challenge the Empire. The Empire already had its clutches on the galaxy and began their indoctrination of the public. I think it likely that if the N.A.Z1s had won WW2 we would not have even heard about the likes of Yad Vashem.
- At the height of Christian expansionism, we still heard about Zeus and other myths -
Exactly...Myths, which is what Rey believes the Jedi to be. Does anyone worship the old Gods of Olympus - even in Greece today? NO. Same with Star Wars there were no practicing jedi (other than luke's small destroyed academy that we have already covered).
- In a sense, the most forgotten people that I can think of are the Beothuk and even then you’ll hear about them from time to time.
Same answer as per "myths" above - you hear about them but lack any real detail. If they practiced the force, could you suddenly master the use of their powers as Rey did with no training?
The Jedi were around for 1000s of years and it’s a big galaxy and its pretty hard to really erase that much info: that’s why most dictators will try to reframe the info - fake news etc., I imagine more that Palpatine would have tried to frame the Jedi as evil, not that they didn’t exist. -
To this I give the same answer as @Thor_Odinson1 - "The Empire lost EVENTUALLY, but they ruled for 20 years before ANH, and they spent that time indoctrinating the galaxy. Anyone who DID remember the jedi was convinced that they were evil". And my previous answer re: 1984 controlling records of past and history to control the populace.
Haha - it was a good answer - 100% correct!
Lol just when I thought this thread had died someone goes and brings it back.
Like Al Pacino from the Godfather part 3 (This is where I wish I knew how to add a Gif, lol).
IMHO, The Force Awakens was garbage. I will begrudgingly watching the next. But don't get your New Hopes up, because they planned 3 sequels. Expect an Empire size cliff hanger to strike back. It'll be like Pirates of the Caribbean without Johnny Depp.
I was gonna try to help you out with that @Boo but then I realized your link was to a swgoh.gg profile.
Or is that always on your posts...?
Ya that's my signature line - so if anyone here ever questions or wants to look at my roster then its always available.
But thanks for your try, lol
You're my boy Boo!
Haha! - its weird though, my gaming profile for Xbox etc even this game is "Juzzyforce" but apparently that strange name was taken on the forums so had to go by the first thing that popped into my head - "Boo" - that's why my signature line name is different from my forum name - confuses the hec outa my guild for sure, lol
Stars do almost nothing, it's all about gear/abilities/mods.
Why didn't you get your 4* Kylo at launch with BF2?