Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Ok buff see where he solos hstr and dies 50% in the new raid. That would put him roughly on par with the other GLs.
But I'm a realist. I don't think that soloing a phase or even half a phase I'd intended in the new raid. So for that aspect, making see do more dmg than most non GL teams and bringing down the dmg of the other GLs to roughly the same.
For SLKR, a direct nerf to siphon is probably needed to accomplish that.
Why should those of us that took CG at their word when they said that the new GLs would be equal be punished by not being able to put up decent scores in newer content or not bring able to meaningful help our guild out?
I completely disagree with any " * " style nerf to any characters (aside from saying "excludes raid bosses", for example). changes like that completely destroy any theory crafting to min/max a toon. no toon should have a line in the sand like that. thats just my opinion.
on par does not mean equal, just to be clear. you are looking for equal, and I get that. you want SEE to do in a raid what SLKR may do. that would be equal.
on par means they may not do the same things, but they are still powerful in their own right and have things they can do (not exclusive), and also allows for them to be not exactly the same, but "in line" with each other. This is where we are seeing SEE miss the mark. generally speaking he doesn't seem to be as powerful as a GL should be, he doesn't have "the thing" that brings him completely in line. but I dont have him and much of this thinking comes from what others are saying.
that being said, I also dont think he needs as huge a buff as you make it out to be, but thats not really up to us. which is why I ask for the evidence that people can show about his failings and try to direct that as best I can to the people who it is up to. which you seem to think I am not doing up to par, but we can agree to disagree there too.
So you think see doing 2% on phase 1 while all the other GLs do over 10% and SLKR does 50% os on par.
I'm not asking for equal. But SLKR does 25 times the dmg. And th ef other GLs do over 5 times the dmg.
That's like the other GLs being pro baseball players and see being in little league.
If there was another game mode where see was way better than the rest (ea hard to beat in arena or gac, ect) you could offset him being worse in the raid (not to this magnitude in my opinion).
But he's below them in other aspects of the game and rancor bait in the raid. Do you really think that releasing a GL this bad and leaving him this bad for months is a good way to encourage people to go blindly at the next set of GLs?
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Hey Kyno, just curious as to your thoughts on what SEE’s main weakness is? Not looking to argue or anything but there seems to be a few different opinions on his main shortfalls is and just curious on your personal opinion?
I have said this a few times, what I see from what others have stated, is not really that he has 1 big weakness. more that he doesn't have any one particular place where he shines. he has several smaller weaknesses that make him feel not exactly how a GL should.
low banner count
lower tier counters
solo-ability (and not in the way you want a GL to have it)
..... ext.
these are thing things that seem to be echoing here and make sense and have evidence to back them up.
but I also keep in mind that they are not likely to rewrite his kit, so him being better in the existing raids, is unlikely, or major changes to his ultimate, or removal of specific restrictions. ... its not to say they may not, but those types of changes seem like the least likely to happen. but i'm not a dev so my thinking on that may not be correct.
solo-ability (and not in the way you want a GL to have it) 👀
Is this in reference to his ability to solo certain teams or his tendency to be solo’d by the other GL’s.
If it’s the latter is it fair to speculate that a particular mechanic interacting or not interacting with one or more toons resulting in an easier win with less resources isn’t a desired interaction.
Truth be told even if it’s the former that’s interesting. The GAS interaction is well known and he can solo a few light side teams, but if his soloing ability on offense is raising flags with teams that implies a viability element thats been overlooked.
It's cool 25 people have found a niche use of SEE+Wat vs. Rey, L337, and some Mando characters..
But most Rey teams are with Resistance and or Jedi...
I've never encountered that Rey Mando Droid team but if I do it's nice to know SEE us an easy counter.
It is just example. If you check my GAC history, you will see I beat all kind of Rey teams. Same with arena. I just climb using 2 toons and leave it overnight. The 2-men team can be easily beaten by CLS or Vader, and slkr ofc, but if one is too lazy to switch team, those Jedi or Rey team can lose on offense against it:)
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Ok buff see where he solos hstr and dies 50% in the new raid. That would put him roughly on par with the other GLs.
But I'm a realist. I don't think that soloing a phase or even half a phase I'd intended in the new raid. So for that aspect, making see do more dmg than most non GL teams and bringing down the dmg of the other GLs to roughly the same.
For SLKR, a direct nerf to siphon is probably needed to accomplish that.
Why should those of us that took CG at their word when they said that the new GLs would be equal be punished by not being able to put up decent scores in newer content or not bring able to meaningful help our guild out?
I completely disagree with any " * " style nerf to any characters (aside from saying "excludes raid bosses", for example). changes like that completely destroy any theory crafting to min/max a toon. no toon should have a line in the sand like that. thats just my opinion.
on par does not mean equal, just to be clear. you are looking for equal, and I get that. you want SEE to do in a raid what SLKR may do. that would be equal.
on par means they may not do the same things, but they are still powerful in their own right and have things they can do (not exclusive), and also allows for them to be not exactly the same, but "in line" with each other. This is where we are seeing SEE miss the mark. generally speaking he doesn't seem to be as powerful as a GL should be, he doesn't have "the thing" that brings him completely in line. but I dont have him and much of this thinking comes from what others are saying.
that being said, I also dont think he needs as huge a buff as you make it out to be, but thats not really up to us. which is why I ask for the evidence that people can show about his failings and try to direct that as best I can to the people who it is up to. which you seem to think I am not doing up to par, but we can agree to disagree there too.
So you think see doing 2% on phase 1 while all the other GLs do over 10% and SLKR does 50% os on par.
I'm not asking for equal. But SLKR does 25 times the dmg. And th ef other GLs do over 5 times the dmg.
That's like the other GLs being pro baseball players and see being in little league.
If there was another game mode where see was way better than the rest (ea hard to beat in arena or gac, ect) you could offset him being worse in the raid (not to this magnitude in my opinion).
But he's below them in other aspects of the game and rancor bait in the raid. Do you really think that releasing a GL this bad and leaving him this bad for months is a good way to encourage people to go blindly at the next set of GLs?
well first, I think 50% is not the norm, and one video doesn't make it the norm.
I dont think looking at one specific area is the way to judge, "on par". so this is not how I look at him.
This can be tricky to navigate, but I will try....
- He will go 4/4 in TBs - the counter is, "other teams can do that", but it doesnt' change the fact that he can and does, which opens up other teams to be broken up by donations, which can help a guild get through. this is basically a wash across all GLs.
- raid - yep hes not good there, and from his kit, I wouldn't have expected him to be. some toons are just not written that way.
- arena - we have covered this to some extent, and believe it or not, it seems the general consensus here doesn't not seem to be represented in the data where he is showing to be not the worst of the 4 in either win ratio or loss ration
- TW/GAC - bad for defense, and bad for banners, even on O. add to that no real solid team without breaking up others.
- random events - kind of a wash here for all GLs. yes the assault battles can be brought up, but Rey doesn't even have one so...... easier to call it a wash than to compare.
so with a breakdown like this we can see that he is down 2 categories, but up in 1, and a wash on 2.
does that mean he needs to be brought up in both the ones he is down on, no. to be on par they could make him "the best" in the one he is good at but not the best right now. they could make changes to get him a better banner count, not going into details here, just throwing it out there.
the point is, no he doesn't' need to do more raid damage to be " on par", because "on par" doesn't mean equal, or that they all have to do the same things better than everyone else.
but all of this is not my call and I dont know what i would do in their situation, but I can see the argument that no he deosnt' need to be better in the raid to be "on par". and no they dont need to bring the others down in the raid, just to try and say "look SEE is more on par now". (I just think that is a bad idea)
all of this is my personal thoughts on this, based on the information I have access too. and to be very clear, none, literally none of this has anything to do with my position as a moderator and the information i pass to them about the player sentiment on this subject.
Well as someone who recently acquired SEE and has him at R7 with pretty good mods (non ult obviously) I can say he definitely needs some work but not a complete overhaul like I thought before I got him. The 2 main things are damage and the link mechanic. His lead may not be great for the team but in a way that could be fine imo.
The first fix would be easy from my point of view, SEE gains 25% offence for each ally defeated. Straight away you end up with a SEE with double damage when his team are gone which both fits the character AND punishes the enemy for defeating your allies. Then boost his offence in ultimate every time a shock lands! No more time outs there.
As for link, which is very easy to abuse for a couple of characters (NS Zombie etc) or solos, have when a linked character is defeated, the remaining linked character gets their stats crippled until link is re established with other characters AND that character (broken link or whatever) awards 15% ult charge every turn they take (no more solos).
One last thing with Ultimate basic, have him do 150% damage to all deceived enemies, not just LS deceived enemies. Seems to fix most problems. Yeah he’s still be trash in raids but what can ya do?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Ok buff see where he solos hstr and dies 50% in the new raid. That would put him roughly on par with the other GLs.
But I'm a realist. I don't think that soloing a phase or even half a phase I'd intended in the new raid. So for that aspect, making see do more dmg than most non GL teams and bringing down the dmg of the other GLs to roughly the same.
For SLKR, a direct nerf to siphon is probably needed to accomplish that.
Why should those of us that took CG at their word when they said that the new GLs would be equal be punished by not being able to put up decent scores in newer content or not bring able to meaningful help our guild out?
I completely disagree with any " * " style nerf to any characters (aside from saying "excludes raid bosses", for example). changes like that completely destroy any theory crafting to min/max a toon. no toon should have a line in the sand like that. thats just my opinion.
on par does not mean equal, just to be clear. you are looking for equal, and I get that. you want SEE to do in a raid what SLKR may do. that would be equal.
on par means they may not do the same things, but they are still powerful in their own right and have things they can do (not exclusive), and also allows for them to be not exactly the same, but "in line" with each other. This is where we are seeing SEE miss the mark. generally speaking he doesn't seem to be as powerful as a GL should be, he doesn't have "the thing" that brings him completely in line. but I dont have him and much of this thinking comes from what others are saying.
that being said, I also dont think he needs as huge a buff as you make it out to be, but thats not really up to us. which is why I ask for the evidence that people can show about his failings and try to direct that as best I can to the people who it is up to. which you seem to think I am not doing up to par, but we can agree to disagree there too.
So you think see doing 2% on phase 1 while all the other GLs do over 10% and SLKR does 50% os on par.
I'm not asking for equal. But SLKR does 25 times the dmg. And th ef other GLs do over 5 times the dmg.
That's like the other GLs being pro baseball players and see being in little league.
If there was another game mode where see was way better than the rest (ea hard to beat in arena or gac, ect) you could offset him being worse in the raid (not to this magnitude in my opinion).
But he's below them in other aspects of the game and rancor bait in the raid. Do you really think that releasing a GL this bad and leaving him this bad for months is a good way to encourage people to go blindly at the next set of GLs?
well first, I think 50% is not the norm, and one video doesn't make it the norm.
I dont think looking at one specific area is the way to judge, "on par". so this is not how I look at him.
This can be tricky to navigate, but I will try....
- He will go 4/4 in TBs - the counter is, "other teams can do that", but it doesnt' change the fact that he can and does, which opens up other teams to be broken up by donations, which can help a guild get through. this is basically a wash across all GLs.
- raid - yep hes not good there, and from his kit, I wouldn't have expected him to be. some toons are just not written that way.
- arena - we have covered this to some extent, and believe it or not, it seems the general consensus here doesn't not seem to be represented in the data where he is showing to be not the worst of the 4 in either win ratio or loss ration
- TW/GAC - bad for defense, and bad for banners, even on O. add to that no real solid team without breaking up others.
- random events - kind of a wash here for all GLs. yes the assault battles can be brought up, but Rey doesn't even have one so...... easier to call it a wash than to compare.
so with a breakdown like this we can see that he is down 2 categories, but up in 1, and a wash on 2.
does that mean he needs to be brought up in both the ones he is down on, no. to be on par they could make him "the best" in the one he is good at but not the best right now. they could make changes to get him a better banner count, not going into details here, just throwing it out there.
the point is, no he doesn't' need to do more raid damage to be " on par", because "on par" doesn't mean equal, or that they all have to do the same things better than everyone else.
but all of this is not my call and I dont know what i would do in their situation, but I can see the argument that no he deosnt' need to be better in the raid to be "on par". and no they dont need to bring the others down in the raid, just to try and say "look SEE is more on par now". (I just think that is a bad idea)
all of this is my personal thoughts on this, based on the information I have access too. and to be very clear, none, literally none of this has anything to do with my position as a moderator and the information i pass to them about the player sentiment on this subject.
The strategy for 50% with SLKR isn't terribly hard or rng dependent. It does seem to req r8 for 50% but 35% is pretty easy with decent mods and r7. So still a large gap.
And I do think that the fact that the raid is the new in game content and he is as bad as he is a problem.
I also don't think the arena data shows the whole story. His win rate may be in line with the others but saying he excels at it is an overstatement at best. I use mine to climb in arena. I beat jml teams nearly 100% of the time. But I swtich to other counters for Rey and SLKR teams. So my data shows see as winning 100% of the time. But that is really only saying that he beats jml. And that the see owners have given up using him in battles where they can get a win easier with a mon GL team.
Here's how I see arena
See - beats jml, rey sometimes, kylo is a lost cause
Jml - beats kylo, beats rey sometimes, can beat see with the right line up
Rey - beats kylo, jml, and see but not super strong against them
Kylo - struggles against jml but can win with proper lineup, destroys see, and beats Rey alright
So how does this make see the best for arena offense? I could see on par, but not best.
I would say SEE excel in arena. Remember SEE was relatively new GL. It took sometime to find the best arena team. SEE right now is the king in arena:) It beats any JML, Rey combo, and SEE itself because AI is dumb. It only struggled against SLKR. Since I acquired SEE, no more RNG loss in arena climb. I use JML to kill SLKR, and SEE to kill all other 3 GLs. 100% win rate, 0 loss for the last 2 weeks since I got SEE.
For SEE to be on par, he would need to be 10+* better than any other GL in Arena to make up for the lack of usability in any raid. Honestly pump his damage for raid.. nerf his damage on jedi, up his damage on dark side allies. Put some better buff on the **** link so its worth getting the zeta and fix link so we can target anyone and if they don't have enough people to link it targets the one for double the effect.
But more than anything, make a fix soon... This has gone on for far to long.
I would say SEE excel in arena. Remember SEE was relatively new GL. It took sometime to find the best arena team. SEE right now is the king in arena:) It beats any JML, Rey combo, and SEE itself because AI is dumb. It only struggled against SLKR. Since I acquired SEE, no more RNG loss in arena climb. I use JML to kill SLKR, and SEE to kill all other 3 GLs. 100% win rate, 0 loss for the last 2 weeks since I got SEE.
Can you really say he excels if there is a team in arena he simply can't beat.
Would you excel in arena if see were your only GL. You have jml to beat kylo but could you climb with just see? Even if there's a SLKR in first.
I would say SEE excel in arena. Remember SEE was relatively new GL. It took sometime to find the best arena team. SEE right now is the king in arena:) It beats any JML, Rey combo, and SEE itself because AI is dumb. It only struggled against SLKR. Since I acquired SEE, no more RNG loss in arena climb. I use JML to kill SLKR, and SEE to kill all other 3 GLs. 100% win rate, 0 loss for the last 2 weeks since I got SEE.
Can you really say he excels if there is a team in arena he simply can't beat.
Would you excel in arena if see were your only GL. You have jml to beat kylo but could you climb with just see? Even if there's a SLKR in first.
Yes, I can beat SLKR with SEE, just not as solid 100% win rate as JML. Use traya BSF plus Best 2 from DR Malak DN Vader as supporting SIth and/or add Wat.
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Ok buff see where he solos hstr and dies 50% in the new raid. That would put him roughly on par with the other GLs.
But I'm a realist. I don't think that soloing a phase or even half a phase I'd intended in the new raid. So for that aspect, making see do more dmg than most non GL teams and bringing down the dmg of the other GLs to roughly the same.
For SLKR, a direct nerf to siphon is probably needed to accomplish that.
Why should those of us that took CG at their word when they said that the new GLs would be equal be punished by not being able to put up decent scores in newer content or not bring able to meaningful help our guild out?
I completely disagree with any " * " style nerf to any characters (aside from saying "excludes raid bosses", for example). changes like that completely destroy any theory crafting to min/max a toon. no toon should have a line in the sand like that. thats just my opinion.
on par does not mean equal, just to be clear. you are looking for equal, and I get that. you want SEE to do in a raid what SLKR may do. that would be equal.
on par means they may not do the same things, but they are still powerful in their own right and have things they can do (not exclusive), and also allows for them to be not exactly the same, but "in line" with each other. This is where we are seeing SEE miss the mark. generally speaking he doesn't seem to be as powerful as a GL should be, he doesn't have "the thing" that brings him completely in line. but I dont have him and much of this thinking comes from what others are saying.
that being said, I also dont think he needs as huge a buff as you make it out to be, but thats not really up to us. which is why I ask for the evidence that people can show about his failings and try to direct that as best I can to the people who it is up to. which you seem to think I am not doing up to par, but we can agree to disagree there too.
So you think see doing 2% on phase 1 while all the other GLs do over 10% and SLKR does 50% os on par.
I'm not asking for equal. But SLKR does 25 times the dmg. And th ef other GLs do over 5 times the dmg.
That's like the other GLs being pro baseball players and see being in little league.
If there was another game mode where see was way better than the rest (ea hard to beat in arena or gac, ect) you could offset him being worse in the raid (not to this magnitude in my opinion).
But he's below them in other aspects of the game and rancor bait in the raid. Do you really think that releasing a GL this bad and leaving him this bad for months is a good way to encourage people to go blindly at the next set of GLs?
well first, I think 50% is not the norm, and one video doesn't make it the norm.
I dont think looking at one specific area is the way to judge, "on par". so this is not how I look at him.
This can be tricky to navigate, but I will try....
- He will go 4/4 in TBs - the counter is, "other teams can do that", but it doesnt' change the fact that he can and does, which opens up other teams to be broken up by donations, which can help a guild get through. this is basically a wash across all GLs.
- raid - yep hes not good there, and from his kit, I wouldn't have expected him to be. some toons are just not written that way.
- arena - we have covered this to some extent, and believe it or not, it seems the general consensus here doesn't not seem to be represented in the data where he is showing to be not the worst of the 4 in either win ratio or loss ration
- TW/GAC - bad for defense, and bad for banners, even on O. add to that no real solid team without breaking up others.
- random events - kind of a wash here for all GLs. yes the assault battles can be brought up, but Rey doesn't even have one so...... easier to call it a wash than to compare.
so with a breakdown like this we can see that he is down 2 categories, but up in 1, and a wash on 2.
does that mean he needs to be brought up in both the ones he is down on, no. to be on par they could make him "the best" in the one he is good at but not the best right now. they could make changes to get him a better banner count, not going into details here, just throwing it out there.
the point is, no he doesn't' need to do more raid damage to be " on par", because "on par" doesn't mean equal, or that they all have to do the same things better than everyone else.
but all of this is not my call and I dont know what i would do in their situation, but I can see the argument that no he deosnt' need to be better in the raid to be "on par". and no they dont need to bring the others down in the raid, just to try and say "look SEE is more on par now". (I just think that is a bad idea)
all of this is my personal thoughts on this, based on the information I have access too. and to be very clear, none, literally none of this has anything to do with my position as a moderator and the information i pass to them about the player sentiment on this subject.
It requires good to great mods, but I ran that team last CMPit and dropped 18.5 mil in P1 fairly brainlessly, so yes, it can be the norm. We actually have people rotate for P1 now because it's fairly easy to do.
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I will take your word that your experiences battling Rey and JML teams are valid.
I don’t give much cadence to squad arena wins or losses. There’s too much variation between different shards and often the battles are more consistently than other game modes. I admit I am sympathetic to those struggling against SLKR heavy shards, but it would be difficult to argue that alone requires action.
I do appreciate you recognize he has weakness. Personally I wouldn’t bother with 2 our of 3 of the ones you listed. I can see why those would make your list though and it’s not with out reason.
Personally I’d like to more data on this very easy 2 v 5 near 100% high banner win rate against all GL compositions aside from SLKR. I didn’t see it when I looked but I’m open to it. Perhaps we have different interpretations on what makes a battle easy.
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I will take your word that your experiences battling Rey and JML teams are valid.
I don’t give much cadence to squad arena wins or losses. There’s too much variation between different shards and often the battles are more consistently than other game modes. I admit I am sympathetic to those struggling against SLKR heavy shards, but it would be difficult to argue that alone requires action.
I do appreciate you recognize he has weakness. Personally I wouldn’t bother with 2 our of 3 of the ones you listed. I can see why those would make your list though and it’s not with out reason.
Personally I’d like to more data on this very easy 2 v 5 near 100% high banner win rate against all GL compositions aside from SLKR. I didn’t see it when I looked but I’m open to it. Perhaps we have different interpretations on what makes a battle easy.
I am in Dec 2015 shards, so you can imagine how developed the shard is in term of GL ownership. I will DM you some videos.
I would say SEE excel in arena. Remember SEE was relatively new GL. It took sometime to find the best arena team. SEE right now is the king in arena:) It beats any JML, Rey combo, and SEE itself because AI is dumb. It only struggled against SLKR. Since I acquired SEE, no more RNG loss in arena climb. I use JML to kill SLKR, and SEE to kill all other 3 GLs. 100% win rate, 0 loss for the last 2 weeks since I got SEE.
Can you really say he excels if there is a team in arena he simply can't beat.
Would you excel in arena if see were your only GL. You have jml to beat kylo but could you climb with just see? Even if there's a SLKR in first.
Yes, I can beat SLKR with SEE, just not as solid 100% win rate as JML. Use traya BSF plus Best 2 from DR Malak DN Vader as supporting SIth and/or add Wat.
If you are using see just to climb through Rey and jml teams, that is just as possible with vader + a four star wat and darth revan+ a four star wat. And the win rate is nearly 100% there too.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I just wanted to say that I think Kyno is 100% right on this one - while SEE is a) weaker on defence than any other GL, b) worse than the other GLs in raids and c) the only GL who cannot beat all other teams in the game on offence, none of those weaknesses individually would require a buff. The issue is, as he says, that the fact that SEE has so many, albeit somewhat moderate, weaknesses and that he doesnt shine in any area of the game means that he does feel very underwhelming relative to the other GLs.
Honestly I think it’s pretty clear that the ‘SEE is so useless he’s like just another legendary’ crowd is completely wrong, as SEE is clearly much more powerful than any non-GL in the game.
The bigger issue is not that he has any of the above individual weaknesses, but that he really just doesnt ever feel like he is ‘special’, and lacks a game mode which makes the player think ‘wow, this GL is awesome - no other character could do this as well’, unlike JML who, while also weak in PvE, shines in arena, or Rey who is great in GAC and new Rancor, or SLKR who is great in the HSTR as well as being good in GAC.
TBH I think the obvious solution for CG is just to remove the non-GL requirement on linked, which would make him feel a lot more powerful in Arena and give him somewhere to shine. While this would let him beat SLKR on offence, and hold on defence against those JML teams which are not specific counters, he would still be weaker than the other GLs in PvE, as well as still being vulnerable to the Rey/SLKR solo counters and Imp Trooper counters which make him both the worst GL in GAC, as well as ensuring he would not be overly dominant in arena.
That way, SEE would still likely be the worst overall GL, but at very minimum would feel like he was special insofar as he would be able to shut down the other GLs more effectively than other GLs.
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
I actually think that pointing out the bias of a "moderator" that is taking a position that (in my opinion) is contrary to the evidence presented is actually very useful.
.
I have stated that I believe he needs a buff, several times in fact. in that quote that you first asked about, what bias am I showing? becuase I didn't immediately say, yes he needs a buff and there is nothing that should change that?
I know this may surprise you, but I am capable of having an opinion and presenting data all at the same time.
I have no bias on this subject. I am looking at the information presented, all of it. without off handed dismissals, as some have done.
if you think I have a bias, there is nothing i can do about that, but you are incorrect.
what evidence has been presented that I am saying contrary things to? Please tell me in those 4 points, where am I saying anything that is contrary to the information at hand?
Kyno thanks for your work here,
Wanted to share with some of my(I believe others too) concerns about SEE:
1) Offensive capabilities vs SLRK (SLKR vs JMLS is a lot easier than SEE vs SLKR);
2) As mentioned a few posts before - Bastila Lead with Wat and JMLS - feels like it's wrong and doesn't work "clearly" to understand it's mechanics;
3) "Link" is a weak link in everything;
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
1 - I think we can all agree, if that is his only issue on offense, then that is pretty close to on par in that respect.
2 - That team is working 100% in accordance with all the abilities in use. but yes i get the feeling event they agree, it doesn't feel right. (they keep an eye on things like that)
3 - ok. but its not. it works very well under player control. and I could be wrong, but I dont think he would be winning half as well on offense if they player didn't use the Link ability.
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be (SEE is the one that seems a little out of line), for the investment made. So, we can agree to disagree there. we have seen a lot of videos and what not, but when you look at the .gg data, you only see IT being used (I am not sure if they have a minimum threshold for what they show). For me personally, it makes me question (a little) the reliability of other counters, but we dont see the whole picture.
Just a quick question. You state your personal opinion on see.
Do you have see or is your opinion based solely on what you see on videos?
I dont have SEE. more than just videos, but yes, based on information available to players. (how else are we supposed to judge a toon?)
I'm not saying you can judge them by other means. Just that it is sometimes useful to disclose information that may point to bias.
For example, slkr owners are more likely against making see stronger since it could potentially make their arena climbs worse.
I will admit that I went for see. And compared to the other GLs I am extremely disappointed. To the point that if they allowed me to be refunded all th ef material used for see and to relock see, I would probably take it.
When you have people regretting getting a gl, that points to a problem in my opinion.
Another quick question.
Do you intend going for see as your next GL?
I have stated several times that I do not have SEE....... what bias do I have?
I find literally no credence to any arguments that players are arguing for or against a change based on this perceived situation that you mention. it has also been mentioned that jedi owners are the ones that come in here to say that he doesn't need a buff. I have left this alone until this comment.
this is one of the worst things that can be interjected into this conversation and only pulls the conversation off the topic at hand and does nothing for the case being made.
as I have stated, yes SEE will be my 3rd, but currently working Mando stuff with BH also in the mix.
when you have people pointing to a GL winning and other come back that they own a different GL, that also points to a problem.
I am here to play a game, I want everything to be powerful and meaningful for the purpose of playing the game. I have no interest in trying to make the game easier. I want it to be enjoyable, for me that involves playing with people who want to play and have fun. if it wasn't difficult, I wouldn't be here. I dont need a idle game where I just collect rewards. I want things to do and challenges to put myself up against.
I am here working with the people who want a change to help convey their message, and nothing else. As I have said multiple times.
But if see is fine and doesn't need a buff, what game mode does he excel at?
when did I say that?
4 - Personally I think the GLs power is where it should be
That was what I thought you may point out. did you read that in the context of point I was replying to?
4) And for the last one it's the video on YouTube called "How to beat Sith Eternal Emperor - SEE Counter Teams - SWGOH", it's self-explanatory. No other GL have so many F2P counters(tho, honestly it's the problem with other GLs being too strong, rather than SEE being too weak).
I disagree with this being the reason SEE needs a buff (or is weaker, or however you want to say it). I think that the GLs are in a good place as far as power is concerned, for the investment. and on top of that I also said this in the line:
(SEE is the one that seems a little out of line)
I dont think they should weaken the other 3 to "bring SEE up", do you?
I think you are putting how you think about me or what I do, into what I'm saying. I believe this is the second time you have done this, and I am sorry to tell you, you are wrong about my feelings on this situation. if I may make a suggestion, please stop trying to find a way for me to be "in the way" on this (and other topics), its simply not true.
I think there are really two options.
You could either buff see a lot. Or you could adjust the other GLs a bit as well.
I do think that an adjustment to SLKR and Rey to limit their leaderships to first order and resistance would actually be good for longterm game balance.
I also think that the best solution to balancing the GLs in the new raid would also include placing a limit to how many stacks of siphon SLKR can get and the raid boss getting an ability to ignore damage immunity after a certain amount of damage has been done to him.
I do think that the damage immunity that Rey and kylo get in their ult stances and the siphoning makes them way op in pve compared to both see and jml.
You can nerf them to make them roughly equal in these game modes or buff the new (and all future) GLs if they are to keep them "roughly equal".
Either way is fine with me. But I doubt that CG intends to have teams doing 50% of a phase in the new raid two weeks in.
So, I think a combination of nerfing Rey and kylo and buffing see is probably the best solution.
nerfing toons doesn't help "SEE be better", so i must ask, who is showing a bias?
Hey Kyno, just curious as to your thoughts on what SEE’s main weakness is? Not looking to argue or anything but there seems to be a few different opinions on his main shortfalls is and just curious on your personal opinion?
I have said this a few times, what I see from what others have stated, is not really that he has 1 big weakness. more that he doesn't have any one particular place where he shines. he has several smaller weaknesses that make him feel not exactly how a GL should.
low banner count
lower tier counters
solo-ability (and not in the way you want a GL to have it)
..... ext.
these are thing things that seem to be echoing here and make sense and have evidence to back them up.
but I also keep in mind that they are not likely to rewrite his kit, so him being better in the existing raids, is unlikely, or major changes to his ultimate, or removal of specific restrictions. ... its not to say they may not, but those types of changes seem like the least likely to happen. but i'm not a dev so my thinking on that may not be correct.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Yeah the "buy another gl" arguement. Do you not understand they advertised them to be equal? But sure I'll just buy another one. Just give me your credit card and I'll get right on that.
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Yeah the "buy another gl" arguement. Do you not understand they advertised them to be equal? But sure I'll just buy another one. Just give me your credit card and I'll get right on that.
sloweagle has all 4 GLs F2P. This is not the circumstance for most players. SEE has excellent niche uses (even if those uses can be accomplished with other teams). I still advocate for a tweak for SEE as a JML owner.
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
But... Isnt JML supposed to be a tank? How is he hitting so hard?
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
But... Isnt JML supposed to be a tank? How is he hitting so hard?
He has GL level dmg. Rey and Kylo also hit really hard. See is the only one that doesn't.
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
But... Isnt JML supposed to be a tank? How is he hitting so hard?
Modifiers. He has offense up 50% from 3 different sources. Hyoda, JKL, and then shak. CD up for another 50%. And a few other buffs.
The answer is modifiers. Specifically % modifiers.
This is why SLKR stacks so hard. He gains % crit damage ontop of the flat offense. His lead gives % Crit damage.
SEE gains absolutely none of this. That's why his damage PALES in comparison to a buffed up JML OR Slkr by himself.
SEE 1 saving grace was 100% defense ignore... but thats limited to only jedi. Which makes him pretty useless everywhere else unless he has wats weapon tech. SEE stacking raw offense does nothing. His potency lead is lackluster. Mastery gives him nothing. He doesn't give out or gain any buffs in his kit. He has no modifiers in his kit (unless he's fighting LS / jedi). He has no decent debuffs in his kit that would help. He can't control the battlefield like SLKR or JML can with their debuffs.
As a GL he is a failure. He has 1 niche... killing jedi. Even then his lackluster damage and scaling means most his team dies and thus banner count it super low.
Hes bad in the raids.
Hes only ok in DS geo.
his requirements are trash tier toons at worst and lackluster at best.
he requires other sith that arnt part of his reqs to even do anything.
I love my sith faction... to the point I have every single one r7. I love my empire and BH and seps. All of them are well modded and geared.
I regret getting SEE. He FEELS lackluster and unimpressive. And thats the issue.
There are also other modifiers at play built into the kit (more detail in the link in my signature, which we figured out months ago). SLKR has the CD mastery which is huge compared to SEE's very gradual stacking of small amounts of offense. But also SLKR has a ton of base defense penetration. SEE also has an incredibly low damage multiplier on his post-ultimate basic if he actually survives to using it: about 1/3rd of SLKR's basic and 1/2 of Luke's AOE here.
Replies
So you think see doing 2% on phase 1 while all the other GLs do over 10% and SLKR does 50% os on par.
I'm not asking for equal. But SLKR does 25 times the dmg. And th ef other GLs do over 5 times the dmg.
That's like the other GLs being pro baseball players and see being in little league.
If there was another game mode where see was way better than the rest (ea hard to beat in arena or gac, ect) you could offset him being worse in the raid (not to this magnitude in my opinion).
But he's below them in other aspects of the game and rancor bait in the raid. Do you really think that releasing a GL this bad and leaving him this bad for months is a good way to encourage people to go blindly at the next set of GLs?
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
solo-ability (and not in the way you want a GL to have it) 👀
Is this in reference to his ability to solo certain teams or his tendency to be solo’d by the other GL’s.
If it’s the latter is it fair to speculate that a particular mechanic interacting or not interacting with one or more toons resulting in an easier win with less resources isn’t a desired interaction.
Truth be told even if it’s the former that’s interesting. The GAS interaction is well known and he can solo a few light side teams, but if his soloing ability on offense is raising flags with teams that implies a viability element thats been overlooked.
It is just example. If you check my GAC history, you will see I beat all kind of Rey teams. Same with arena. I just climb using 2 toons and leave it overnight. The 2-men team can be easily beaten by CLS or Vader, and slkr ofc, but if one is too lazy to switch team, those Jedi or Rey team can lose on offense against it:)
well first, I think 50% is not the norm, and one video doesn't make it the norm.
I dont think looking at one specific area is the way to judge, "on par". so this is not how I look at him.
This can be tricky to navigate, but I will try....
- He will go 4/4 in TBs - the counter is, "other teams can do that", but it doesnt' change the fact that he can and does, which opens up other teams to be broken up by donations, which can help a guild get through. this is basically a wash across all GLs.
- raid - yep hes not good there, and from his kit, I wouldn't have expected him to be. some toons are just not written that way.
- arena - we have covered this to some extent, and believe it or not, it seems the general consensus here doesn't not seem to be represented in the data where he is showing to be not the worst of the 4 in either win ratio or loss ration
- TW/GAC - bad for defense, and bad for banners, even on O. add to that no real solid team without breaking up others.
- random events - kind of a wash here for all GLs. yes the assault battles can be brought up, but Rey doesn't even have one so...... easier to call it a wash than to compare.
so with a breakdown like this we can see that he is down 2 categories, but up in 1, and a wash on 2.
does that mean he needs to be brought up in both the ones he is down on, no. to be on par they could make him "the best" in the one he is good at but not the best right now. they could make changes to get him a better banner count, not going into details here, just throwing it out there.
the point is, no he doesn't' need to do more raid damage to be " on par", because "on par" doesn't mean equal, or that they all have to do the same things better than everyone else.
but all of this is not my call and I dont know what i would do in their situation, but I can see the argument that no he deosnt' need to be better in the raid to be "on par". and no they dont need to bring the others down in the raid, just to try and say "look SEE is more on par now". (I just think that is a bad idea)
all of this is my personal thoughts on this, based on the information I have access too. and to be very clear, none, literally none of this has anything to do with my position as a moderator and the information i pass to them about the player sentiment on this subject.
The first fix would be easy from my point of view, SEE gains 25% offence for each ally defeated. Straight away you end up with a SEE with double damage when his team are gone which both fits the character AND punishes the enemy for defeating your allies. Then boost his offence in ultimate every time a shock lands! No more time outs there.
As for link, which is very easy to abuse for a couple of characters (NS Zombie etc) or solos, have when a linked character is defeated, the remaining linked character gets their stats crippled until link is re established with other characters AND that character (broken link or whatever) awards 15% ult charge every turn they take (no more solos).
One last thing with Ultimate basic, have him do 150% damage to all deceived enemies, not just LS deceived enemies. Seems to fix most problems. Yeah he’s still be trash in raids but what can ya do?
The strategy for 50% with SLKR isn't terribly hard or rng dependent. It does seem to req r8 for 50% but 35% is pretty easy with decent mods and r7. So still a large gap.
And I do think that the fact that the raid is the new in game content and he is as bad as he is a problem.
I also don't think the arena data shows the whole story. His win rate may be in line with the others but saying he excels at it is an overstatement at best. I use mine to climb in arena. I beat jml teams nearly 100% of the time. But I swtich to other counters for Rey and SLKR teams. So my data shows see as winning 100% of the time. But that is really only saying that he beats jml. And that the see owners have given up using him in battles where they can get a win easier with a mon GL team.
Here's how I see arena
See - beats jml, rey sometimes, kylo is a lost cause
Jml - beats kylo, beats rey sometimes, can beat see with the right line up
Rey - beats kylo, jml, and see but not super strong against them
Kylo - struggles against jml but can win with proper lineup, destroys see, and beats Rey alright
So how does this make see the best for arena offense? I could see on par, but not best.
So he really excels nowhere.
I would say SEE excel in arena. Remember SEE was relatively new GL. It took sometime to find the best arena team. SEE right now is the king in arena:) It beats any JML, Rey combo, and SEE itself because AI is dumb. It only struggled against SLKR. Since I acquired SEE, no more RNG loss in arena climb. I use JML to kill SLKR, and SEE to kill all other 3 GLs. 100% win rate, 0 loss for the last 2 weeks since I got SEE.
But more than anything, make a fix soon... This has gone on for far to long.
Can you really say he excels if there is a team in arena he simply can't beat.
Would you excel in arena if see were your only GL. You have jml to beat kylo but could you climb with just see? Even if there's a SLKR in first.
Yes, I can beat SLKR with SEE, just not as solid 100% win rate as JML. Use traya BSF plus Best 2 from DR Malak DN Vader as supporting SIth and/or add Wat.
It requires good to great mods, but I ran that team last CMPit and dropped 18.5 mil in P1 fairly brainlessly, so yes, it can be the norm. We actually have people rotate for P1 now because it's fairly easy to do.
I will take your word that your experiences battling Rey and JML teams are valid.
I don’t give much cadence to squad arena wins or losses. There’s too much variation between different shards and often the battles are more consistently than other game modes. I admit I am sympathetic to those struggling against SLKR heavy shards, but it would be difficult to argue that alone requires action.
I do appreciate you recognize he has weakness. Personally I wouldn’t bother with 2 our of 3 of the ones you listed. I can see why those would make your list though and it’s not with out reason.
Personally I’d like to more data on this very easy 2 v 5 near 100% high banner win rate against all GL compositions aside from SLKR. I didn’t see it when I looked but I’m open to it. Perhaps we have different interpretations on what makes a battle easy.
I am in Dec 2015 shards, so you can imagine how developed the shard is in term of GL ownership. I will DM you some videos.
If you are using see just to climb through Rey and jml teams, that is just as possible with vader + a four star wat and darth revan+ a four star wat. And the win rate is nearly 100% there too.
So he is hardly dominant.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
Honestly I think it’s pretty clear that the ‘SEE is so useless he’s like just another legendary’ crowd is completely wrong, as SEE is clearly much more powerful than any non-GL in the game.
The bigger issue is not that he has any of the above individual weaknesses, but that he really just doesnt ever feel like he is ‘special’, and lacks a game mode which makes the player think ‘wow, this GL is awesome - no other character could do this as well’, unlike JML who, while also weak in PvE, shines in arena, or Rey who is great in GAC and new Rancor, or SLKR who is great in the HSTR as well as being good in GAC.
TBH I think the obvious solution for CG is just to remove the non-GL requirement on linked, which would make him feel a lot more powerful in Arena and give him somewhere to shine. While this would let him beat SLKR on offence, and hold on defence against those JML teams which are not specific counters, he would still be weaker than the other GLs in PvE, as well as still being vulnerable to the Rey/SLKR solo counters and Imp Trooper counters which make him both the worst GL in GAC, as well as ensuring he would not be overly dominant in arena.
That way, SEE would still likely be the worst overall GL, but at very minimum would feel like he was special insofar as he would be able to shut down the other GLs more effectively than other GLs.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
Yeah the "buy another gl" arguement. Do you not understand they advertised them to be equal? But sure I'll just buy another one. Just give me your credit card and I'll get right on that.
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
sloweagle has all 4 GLs F2P. This is not the circumstance for most players. SEE has excellent niche uses (even if those uses can be accomplished with other teams). I still advocate for a tweak for SEE as a JML owner.
But... Isnt JML supposed to be a tank? How is he hitting so hard?
He has GL level dmg. Rey and Kylo also hit really hard. See is the only one that doesn't.
Modifiers. He has offense up 50% from 3 different sources. Hyoda, JKL, and then shak. CD up for another 50%. And a few other buffs.
The answer is modifiers. Specifically % modifiers.
This is why SLKR stacks so hard. He gains % crit damage ontop of the flat offense. His lead gives % Crit damage.
SEE gains absolutely none of this. That's why his damage PALES in comparison to a buffed up JML OR Slkr by himself.
SEE 1 saving grace was 100% defense ignore... but thats limited to only jedi. Which makes him pretty useless everywhere else unless he has wats weapon tech. SEE stacking raw offense does nothing. His potency lead is lackluster. Mastery gives him nothing. He doesn't give out or gain any buffs in his kit. He has no modifiers in his kit (unless he's fighting LS / jedi). He has no decent debuffs in his kit that would help. He can't control the battlefield like SLKR or JML can with their debuffs.
As a GL he is a failure. He has 1 niche... killing jedi. Even then his lackluster damage and scaling means most his team dies and thus banner count it super low.
Hes bad in the raids.
Hes only ok in DS geo.
his requirements are trash tier toons at worst and lackluster at best.
he requires other sith that arnt part of his reqs to even do anything.
I love my sith faction... to the point I have every single one r7. I love my empire and BH and seps. All of them are well modded and geared.
I regret getting SEE. He FEELS lackluster and unimpressive. And thats the issue.