SEE needs buffs. JML needs some minor tweaks. Not hard to grasp
Oh I'm sure many of us agree and most of us here also want some JML fixes as well.
JML feels great. His one issue is his ult generation.
SEE feels like crud. He is lackluster everywhere.
Which is exactly why I’ll never even attempt SEE.
Got JML with his ult and am pushing SLKR with Rey as an aside.
JML only needs something more to his Ult. Perhaps a bit more offense boost and even damage immunity for a turn or two on its activation. Nothing major.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
SEE beats SLKR perfectly fine. It requires some remodding and some strategy, but I have a reliable comp (~90% win rate, couple weeks of use against R8 SLKR) and a new one that I've just been told about and have had success with but needs more testing. It is not even close to "unwinnable". Message me if you want some more detail on the comps, but please stop yelling about how its impossible. I honestly find SLKR easier than Resistance Rey squads.
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I will take your word that your experiences battling Rey and JML teams are valid.
I don’t give much cadence to squad arena wins or losses. There’s too much variation between different shards and often the battles are more consistently than other game modes. I admit I am sympathetic to those struggling against SLKR heavy shards, but it would be difficult to argue that alone requires action.
I do appreciate you recognize he has weakness. Personally I wouldn’t bother with 2 our of 3 of the ones you listed. I can see why those would make your list though and it’s not with out reason.
Personally I’d like to more data on this very easy 2 v 5 near 100% high banner win rate against all GL compositions aside from SLKR. I didn’t see it when I looked but I’m open to it. Perhaps we have different interpretations on what makes a battle easy.
I am in Dec 2015 shards, so you can imagine how developed the shard is in term of GL ownership. I will DM you some videos.
Could you post the videos here please? I would really like to see which comps you're beating, and the mods on both teams as well if you could.
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I dont believe that you can beat all possible Rey comps with SEE+Wat. Rey, Han, Chewie, JKR and JKL/GAS would be a problem for sure. I agree in general that SEE is on par with other GL in arena. I did not try but heard that EP, DR, Malak, SEE and Vader beat SLKR reliably.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Pretty easy to be content when you got all the other GLs as well. Of course SEEs Niche uses wont bother you when you have all the other shiny things to complement him with.
While he has his uses, can you seriously say hes even nearly as usefull as any of the others? Im pretty competitive in both Arena and GAC, and hardly ever lose a single round in the latter, and so far my SEE is mostly relegated to a glorified Padme counter. My only other GL is SLKR and I cant imagine managing without him.
(also, just realized to follow movie lore, SLKR needs the LS tag and to be able to be on the same team as Rey....haha hes not strong enough yet anyway)
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
SEE beats SLKR perfectly fine. It requires some remodding and some strategy, but I have a reliable comp (~90% win rate, couple weeks of use against R8 SLKR) and a new one that I've just been told about and have had success with but needs more testing. It is not even close to "unwinnable". Message me if you want some more detail on the comps, but please stop yelling about how its impossible. I honestly find SLKR easier than Resistance Rey squads.
It is possible. However, the SLKR teams with two tanks are the ones I see in arena and the see teams I have seen against those are very dependent on perfect rng.
I'm not going to try and drive a square peg into a round hole. There are better counters. My point was to someone saying that see is "dominant on offense and can win reliably". I was simply pointing out that is not the case against slkr.
If you have a comp that reliably beats double tank SLKR teams, then I'm sure that the community would be interested to see it.
(also, just realized to follow movie lore, SLKR needs the LS tag and to be able to be on the same team as Rey....haha hes not strong enough yet anyway)
Sorry, you have SLKR confused with Ben Solo. Two different characters.
Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
SEE beats SLKR perfectly fine. It requires some remodding and some strategy, but I have a reliable comp (~90% win rate, couple weeks of use against R8 SLKR) and a new one that I've just been told about and have had success with but needs more testing. It is not even close to "unwinnable". Message me if you want some more detail on the comps, but please stop yelling about how its impossible. I honestly find SLKR easier than Resistance Rey squads.
It is possible. However, the SLKR teams with two tanks are the ones I see in arena and the see teams I have seen against those are very dependent on perfect rng.
I'm not going to try and drive a square peg into a round hole. There are better counters. My point was to someone saying that see is "dominant on offense and can win reliably". I was simply pointing out that is not the case against slkr.
If you have a comp that reliably beats double tank SLKR teams, then I'm sure that the community would be interested to see it.
Mandelbros SEE/DR/BSF/Thrawn/GBA is 95%+ win rate for me. Very reliable and I believe I have only lost once to rng in the past 2 weeks. All against double tank.
Trying a new one from the sith discord channel which I am so far unsure about reliability with. Comp is SEE/Traya/Malak/Wat/SET. Weapons tech to SEE. Open with SEE basic and make sure he takes his second turn before sith trooper takes his first, link sith trooper and SLKR after isolating and dispelling the two tanks. Wait for ult and one shot the entire team. Needs some decent mods, and mine are currently not quite enough for beating R8 SLKR I think. Also against double tank.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
1: win rate against Rey is 100% if you know how to mod your SEE. As I said many times, I can SEE/Wat 2 vs 5 against Rey, any combo and it is against 6B-6A modded top teams. And when I say modding SEE properly, I didn’t mean godly mods. They are mediocre mods that everyone have.
2: when I say 345+ speed, I am not talking about your DR mod. I am talking about the opposite JKR being 345+ speed before leader bonus. If you don’t get your Vader up speed up there, don’t even try vader.
3: those high offense Jericho team sucks in defense. I haven’t got chance to test against them using SEE because no one set such in D. While the Jericho one shot won’t work against my SEE modding in theory, I have to admit that I haven’t got chance to test, I expect no problem as I understand how Jericho version works.
Anyway, I am not arguing SEE is not different from other GLs, or didn’t have weakness. It does have some weakness comparing to other GLs. I think it is relatively balanced one, I understand that’s just my opinion because I values SEE in arena and GAC. It takes time to find best way to use SEE. Asking for a significant update is likely futile as it will tip the balance. And smaller touch won’t make much difference anyway.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
1: win rate against Rey is 100% if you know how to mod your SEE. As I said many times, I can SEE/Wat 2 vs 5 against Rey, any combo and it is against 6B-6A modded top teams. And when I say modding SEE properly, I didn’t mean godly mods. They are mediocre mods that everyone have.
2: when I say 345+ speed, I am not talking about your DR mod. I am talking about the opposite JKR being 345+ speed before leader bonus. If you don’t get your Vader up speed up there, don’t even try vader.
3: those high offense Jericho team sucks in defense. I haven’t got chance to test against them using SEE because no one set such in D. While the Jericho one shot won’t work against my SEE modding in theory, I have to admit that I haven’t got chance to test, I expect no problem as I understand how Jericho version works.
Anyway, I am not arguing SEE is not different from other GLs, or didn’t have weakness. It does have some weakness comparing to other GLs. I think it is relatively balanced one, I understand that’s just my opinion because I values SEE in arena and GAC. It takes time to find best way to use SEE. Asking for a significant update is likely futile as it will tip the balance. And smaller touch won’t make much difference anyway.
2. I have never had a problem getting a wat vader team to go before a jkr. Vader gets ridiculous speed from Sith on a team and from enemy jedi. So with a jkr led Rey team he gets about 72 extra speed (4 sith/empire on my team and 4 enemy jedi). With that, it is easy out run jkr.
Even if you can mod correctly to make Rey 100% and have a comp that can reliably beat SLKR (I've heard claims but not seen evidence that the SLKR counters aren't really rng dependent.), then that would put see on par for arena offense but not dominate.
The other GLs can easily all beat all the other GLs on offense with proper team comp and modding.
My understanding is that see struggles against SLKR more than SLKR struggles against jml or jml struggles against see.
So at best he's on par. But he sucks everywhere else.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Pretty easy to be content when you got all the other GLs as well. Of course SEEs Niche uses wont bother you when you have all the other shiny things to complement him with.
While he has his uses, can you seriously say hes even nearly as usefull as any of the others? Im pretty competitive in both Arena and GAC, and hardly ever lose a single round in the latter, and so far my SEE is mostly relegated to a glorified Padme counter. My only other GL is SLKR and I cant imagine managing without him.
Yes. I seriously believe SEE is really good for PVP. (Arena and GAC) SEE is most flexible in beating any Rey JML combo with almost any combination of modding strategy with high banner. For GAC, that’s very good because you lock a particular modding without knowing how your opponent will mod their Rey or JML team. You don’t need worry if your opponent have a Vader proof Rey high tenacity/high Crit avoidance setup or Jedi proof setup, or forced to use JML or SLKR on Rey for a low banner win.
I used to feel sympathetic to SEE owner until I unlocked SEE myself and spent time to test various combo and modding strategy. I still agree SEE sucks in raid. But for other mode, arena, GAC, TB, and assault battle etc, it is pretty valuable for me compared with other GLs.
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I dont believe that you can beat all possible Rey comps with SEE+Wat. Rey, Han, Chewie, JKR and JKL/GAS would be a problem for sure. I agree in general that SEE is on par with other GL in arena. I did not try but heard that EP, DR, Malak, SEE and Vader beat SLKR reliably.
I beat all of the combo you listed easily (need mod properly of course, but using easily available mod, not those 20+ speed mods). I already DM video to some here against those teams with 340+ speed JKR with GAS JKL plus Rey or JML and HY or Wat etc.
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Pretty easy to be content when you got all the other GLs as well. Of course SEEs Niche uses wont bother you when you have all the other shiny things to complement him with.
While he has his uses, can you seriously say hes even nearly as usefull as any of the others? Im pretty competitive in both Arena and GAC, and hardly ever lose a single round in the latter, and so far my SEE is mostly relegated to a glorified Padme counter. My only other GL is SLKR and I cant imagine managing without him.
Yes. I seriously believe SEE is really good for PVP. (Arena and GAC) SEE is most flexible in beating any Rey JML combo with almost any combination of modding strategy with high banner. For GAC, that’s very good because you lock a particular modding without knowing how your opponent will mod their Rey or JML team. You don’t need worry if your opponent have a Vader proof Rey high tenacity/high Crit avoidance setup or Jedi proof setup, or forced to use JML or SLKR on Rey for a low banner win.
I used to feel sympathetic to SEE owner until I unlocked SEE myself and spent time to test various combo and modding strategy. I still agree SEE sucks in raid. But for other mode, arena, GAC, TB, and assault battle etc, it is pretty valuable for me compared with other GLs.
Would love to see some of those high banner matches vs Rey (not throwing shade or anything, genuinely curious).
Your statement ignores the valid issues players have with SEE and highlights a well established strength as though it says something about his value.
PS. Congrats on getting all 4!
It is not a stretch. With modding easily available to all players (ie, not those whale mods) SEE/Wat can 2v5 vs any Rey, JML combo, (and SEE itself because AI is dumb:) I admit it doesn’t work against SLKR, that’s indeed SEE’s weakness. But in my view, we can’t expect 4 clone of GLs, as long as they have their unique strength, it is great. SEE is the most flexible high banner counter to 3 out of 4 GLs, and is a consistent near 100% win rate team for arena climbing against all current arena meta (except SLKR). I think he has his fair value. The other 3 GLs can lose in arena climbing if your mods are lesser. The SEE team doesn’t care about this mod arm race. With mediocre mods, I have used SEE to climb arena through a sea of JKR/JkL/Gas/JML/Wat, or any Rey team with 100% win rate, same for high banner win for GAC. To me that’s already a value unmatched by other 3 GLs.
Of course SEE has a lot of weakness too. 1: it is just bad against slkr. 2: it has very little use in raid. 3: it is a pretty bad defense team for TW or GAC.
But that’s why all those GLs are different.
I will take your word that your experiences battling Rey and JML teams are valid.
I don’t give much cadence to squad arena wins or losses. There’s too much variation between different shards and often the battles are more consistently than other game modes. I admit I am sympathetic to those struggling against SLKR heavy shards, but it would be difficult to argue that alone requires action.
I do appreciate you recognize he has weakness. Personally I wouldn’t bother with 2 our of 3 of the ones you listed. I can see why those would make your list though and it’s not with out reason.
Personally I’d like to more data on this very easy 2 v 5 near 100% high banner win rate against all GL compositions aside from SLKR. I didn’t see it when I looked but I’m open to it. Perhaps we have different interpretations on what makes a battle easy.
I am in Dec 2015 shards, so you can imagine how developed the shard is in term of GL ownership. I will DM you some videos.
Could you post the videos here please? I would really like to see which comps you're beating, and the mods on both teams as well if you could.
Will DM you some videos. You will get the idea why it doesn’t matter how the other aide is modded as long as SEE is modded properly.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
1: win rate against Rey is 100% if you know how to mod your SEE. As I said many times, I can SEE/Wat 2 vs 5 against Rey, any combo and it is against 6B-6A modded top teams. And when I say modding SEE properly, I didn’t mean godly mods. They are mediocre mods that everyone have.
2: when I say 345+ speed, I am not talking about your DR mod. I am talking about the opposite JKR being 345+ speed before leader bonus. If you don’t get your Vader up speed up there, don’t even try vader.
3: those high offense Jericho team sucks in defense. I haven’t got chance to test against them using SEE because no one set such in D. While the Jericho one shot won’t work against my SEE modding in theory, I have to admit that I haven’t got chance to test, I expect no problem as I understand how Jericho version works.
Anyway, I am not arguing SEE is not different from other GLs, or didn’t have weakness. It does have some weakness comparing to other GLs. I think it is relatively balanced one, I understand that’s just my opinion because I values SEE in arena and GAC. It takes time to find best way to use SEE. Asking for a significant update is likely futile as it will tip the balance. And smaller touch won’t make much difference anyway.
2. I have never had a problem getting a wat vader team to go before a jkr. Vader gets ridiculous speed from Sith on a team and from enemy jedi. So with a jkr led Rey team he gets about 72 extra speed (4 sith/empire on my team and 4 enemy jedi). With that, it is easy out run jkr.
Even if you can mod correctly to make Rey 100% and have a comp that can reliably beat SLKR (I've heard claims but not seen evidence that the SLKR counters aren't really rng dependent.), then that would put see on par for arena offense but not dominate.
The other GLs can easily all beat all the other GLs on offense with proper team comp and modding.
My understanding is that see struggles against SLKR more than SLKR struggles against jml or jml struggles against see.
So at best he's on par. But he sucks everywhere else.
There is and always will be an element of rng involved with a debuff focused team in a counter thanks to the 15% flat resist chance yes. What the SEE comps Im using do is make that rng as minimal as possible.
SEE/DR/BSF/GBA/Thrawn: Essentially the old DR counter without Han, but with less rng.
- SLKR stabs SET
- SEE links a tank and ST (reducing the charge rate on SLKR ult massively) and gives the team retribution (this is key to reducing the rng)
- Hux switches with SLKR and SLKR aoe's. This triggers DR to counter, giving a chance at applying buff immunity to a tank.
- BSF fears
- DR aoe's to apply shock to both tanks, and follow up with a basic for buff immunity. You have 2 chances to apply a debuff to prevent the taunts before GBA will dispel the taunts. Yes, there is still an element of rng, however it gives you an additional attempt at applying a debuff which makes it honestly very reliable.
The DR counter that I used to use had 3 chances at applying shock/buff immunity, which is the sole reason I would lose the battles. SEE reduces the odds a bunch (but the damage by comparison pains me).
You want the turn order to be SLKR > SEE > Hux > BSF > DR > Thrawn (swaps to GBA) > GBA > Thrawn. SLKR will often survive the fracture, which is usually a death sentence if not for Link slowing his ult charge down so much. Focus him as usual. He will often take a turn after fracture has ended, but not have enough ult charge to use it and will have a Geo Brute in his way so he cant kill anyone useful. Should die before his next turn, or you need more damage on DR and BSF. As always, against a Malak dont use more than one or two aoes here and there when you know you can win even if a character gets feared.
The second comp SEE/Traya/Malak/SET/Wat is at best an 85% win rate with correct modding due to the flat 15% resist chance on a shock from malak. If that misses your screwed. Not sure an R7 SEE can beat an R8 SLKR either without better mods than what I have.
That said, I still dont consider him on par just because you can beat his hard counter, and from what I can tell SLKR and JML have an easier time against their hard counter than SEE does. All three excel in areas that SEE is lacking in. He doesnt really do anything better than anyone else, and mostly does stuff worse than the other GLs.
There is a reason no one use Vader to climb through those JKR/JKL/GAS plus Rey or JML and Wat, because they lose. Don’t even think about 4 stars Wat when the team you beat have R7 Wat and outspeed you.
The jkr teams with Rey are easily beaten with vader. The jkr lead revan ones can be beaten with Darth revan. A faster wat can be easily overcome by throwing raid han in for a quick stun.
See does make the jkr lead jml teams a bit more consistent but that is hardly dominating.
I didn’t say those teams can’t be beaten by Vader team or DR. I can do it myself too and I know the odd of winning and near no room for error. You need also get your mod arm race there too, and the win rate is not 100% because room for error or rng is almost 0. A key dodge or non Crit or if the mods on Vader is not matching, it is over. Go beat the JKR teams with 345+ base speed consistently:) On the other hand, the see team can beat it easily with mediocre mods.
First off a see team is not even close to 100% against Rey. I know, I just lost one today. Even the ones I win, see is often the only one left and fairly low on health. That is not a sure win.
Secondly, if you mod vader for decent speed and potency, you can make the win rate very close to 100%. The higher potency means more dots and a lot less reliance on crits.
You don't need 345 speed with Darth revan teams to beat jkr teams. I had about 330 and was consistently beating them before I got see. See is a bit more reliable against jml though, so I'll give you that one.
Try climbing in arena with only see. If he's so dominant, you shouldn't need jml at all. Just hope you don't hit a SLKR wall or an SLKR in 1st. Or that the slkrs don't keep sniping you since you're an easy target.
I'm not arguing that see has no utility in arena. He does have some. It is just far from dominant.
Here's an example of dominate in arena. Jkr was dominant in arena when he first came out. As were darth revan with malak, traya, and gas when they first came out.
They could easily beat any team in arena and were the hardest team to beat in arena.
Now I'm not saying that see needs to be meta (though I think him and jml should be better than Rey and kylo slightly since they are newer). But if the arguement is he sucks in pve because he's dominate in arena, he isn't dominate enough to make up for how bad he is in pve.
1: win rate against Rey is 100% if you know how to mod your SEE. As I said many times, I can SEE/Wat 2 vs 5 against Rey, any combo and it is against 6B-6A modded top teams. And when I say modding SEE properly, I didn’t mean godly mods. They are mediocre mods that everyone have.
2: when I say 345+ speed, I am not talking about your DR mod. I am talking about the opposite JKR being 345+ speed before leader bonus. If you don’t get your Vader up speed up there, don’t even try vader.
3: those high offense Jericho team sucks in defense. I haven’t got chance to test against them using SEE because no one set such in D. While the Jericho one shot won’t work against my SEE modding in theory, I have to admit that I haven’t got chance to test, I expect no problem as I understand how Jericho version works.
Anyway, I am not arguing SEE is not different from other GLs, or didn’t have weakness. It does have some weakness comparing to other GLs. I think it is relatively balanced one, I understand that’s just my opinion because I values SEE in arena and GAC. It takes time to find best way to use SEE. Asking for a significant update is likely futile as it will tip the balance. And smaller touch won’t make much difference anyway.
2. I have never had a problem getting a wat vader team to go before a jkr. Vader gets ridiculous speed from Sith on a team and from enemy jedi. So with a jkr led Rey team he gets about 72 extra speed (4 sith/empire on my team and 4 enemy jedi). With that, it is easy out run jkr.
Even if you can mod correctly to make Rey 100% and have a comp that can reliably beat SLKR (I've heard claims but not seen evidence that the SLKR counters aren't really rng dependent.), then that would put see on par for arena offense but not dominate.
The other GLs can easily all beat all the other GLs on offense with proper team comp and modding.
My understanding is that see struggles against SLKR more than SLKR struggles against jml or jml struggles against see.
So at best he's on par. But he sucks everywhere else.
There is and always will be an element of rng involved with a debuff focused team in a counter thanks to the 15% flat resist chance yes. What the SEE comps Im using do is make that rng as minimal as possible.
SEE/DR/BSF/GBA/Thrawn: Essentially the old DR counter without Han, but with less rng.
- SLKR stabs SET
- SEE links a tank and ST (reducing the charge rate on SLKR ult massively) and gives the team retribution (this is key to reducing the rng)
- Hux switches with SLKR and SLKR aoe's. This triggers DR to counter, giving a chance at applying buff immunity to a tank.
- BSF fears
- DR aoe's to apply shock to both tanks, and follow up with a basic for buff immunity. You have 2 chances to apply a debuff to prevent the taunts before GBA will dispel the taunts. Yes, there is still an element of rng, however it gives you an additional attempt at applying a debuff which makes it honestly very reliable.
The DR counter that I used to use had 3 chances at applying shock/buff immunity, which is the sole reason I would lose the battles. SEE reduces the odds a bunch (but the damage by comparison pains me).
You want the turn order to be SLKR > SEE > Hux > BSF > DR > Thrawn (swaps to GBA) > GBA > Thrawn. SLKR will often survive the fracture, which is usually a death sentence if not for Link slowing his ult charge down so much. Focus him as usual. He will often take a turn after fracture has ended, but not have enough ult charge to use it and will have a Geo Brute in his way so he cant kill anyone useful. Should die before his next turn, or you need more damage on DR and BSF. As always, against a Malak dont use more than one or two aoes here and there when you know you can win even if a character gets feared.
The second comp SEE/Traya/Malak/SET/Wat is at best an 85% win rate with correct modding due to the flat 15% resist chance on a shock from malak. If that misses your screwed. Not sure an R7 SEE can beat an R8 SLKR either without better mods than what I have.
That said, I still dont consider him on par just because you can beat his hard counter, and from what I can tell SLKR and JML have an easier time against their hard counter than SEE does. All three excel in areas that SEE is lacking in. He doesnt really do anything better than anyone else, and mostly does stuff worse than the other GLs.
I'll give that comp a try. Need a little remodding to make it work but nothing too bad.
@Kyno do we know when we will have some sort of update from devs or the CMs? I know they took two weeks off for the holidays but they are back working now so....
Kyno do we know when we will have some sort of update from devs or the CMs? I know they took two weeks off for the holidays but they are back working now so....
until there is some sort of decision made, the only update we are likely to hear is that they are looking at it.... not what anyone wants to hear, but it is what it is.
also, 2 weeks off usually means you come back to backlog of things and still have to keep the things that are ahead of you on track, so lets not act like they are back yesterday and should just be spitting out anything more than what was done 2 weeks ago.
I don’t think that they (CG) are going to announce smth and they are not going to fix some issues with SEE performance, they sooner release a new GL than we receive a reply from them after 3 months of silence. Just to be clear they will release a new generation of GLs who will be definitely able to beat JMl ( otherwise no point in their release) and people just abandon SEE, as the main purpose for which he was created, will disappear. Knowing that He is awful for other challenges in this game like Raid etc, he will be totally unpopular. on the other hand people will continue farming SLKR in great amounts as he stays still King of raids
Without his ultimate See vs Rey can end in time out very often, if See’s allies don’t kill her first. See without Ultimate totally useless unfortunately
I am advised that I should back away from this thread because the frustration of some SEE owner is leading to some absurd demand. As a SEE owner myself, I am really happy with it. It helps me a lot with Arena and GAC. If some SEE owner doesn’t know how to use it fully, that’s not my problem. Every GL have its strength and weakness, go get all of them if you are not happy with the one you choose to unlock first. Petition to buff the first GL you unlock to have similar strength of other GL lead nowhere, and it will not happen. I got Rey first, I didn’t complain that Rey can’t solo Sith raid, I just go unlock SLKR as soon as possible too. Lol
Pretty easy to be content when you got all the other GLs as well. Of course SEEs Niche uses wont bother you when you have all the other shiny things to complement him with.
While he has his uses, can you seriously say hes even nearly as usefull as any of the others? Im pretty competitive in both Arena and GAC, and hardly ever lose a single round in the latter, and so far my SEE is mostly relegated to a glorified Padme counter. My only other GL is SLKR and I cant imagine managing without him.
Yes. I seriously believe SEE is really good for PVP. (Arena and GAC) SEE is most flexible in beating any Rey JML combo with almost any combination of modding strategy with high banner. For GAC, that’s very good because you lock a particular modding without knowing how your opponent will mod their Rey or JML team. You don’t need worry if your opponent have a Vader proof Rey high tenacity/high Crit avoidance setup or Jedi proof setup, or forced to use JML or SLKR on Rey for a low banner win.
I used to feel sympathetic to SEE owner until I unlocked SEE myself and spent time to test various combo and modding strategy. I still agree SEE sucks in raid. But for other mode, arena, GAC, TB, and assault battle etc, it is pretty valuable for me compared with other GLs.
Would love to see some of those high banner matches vs Rey (not throwing shade or anything, genuinely curious).
You can check GAC history when it come out. I will DM you an arena video on Rey teams.
Just got my DEVASTATING ATTACKER not just 20min ago. Its so silly how glaring the difference is between the two....
My jml has rando health set mods with no CD triangle or any bonus offense.
I did the same event with SEE and after 7 minutes of purposely letting my damage stack I barely got 120k per hit.
But... Isnt JML supposed to be a tank? How is he hitting so hard?
Offense up, Master's Training, Jedi's Will, CD Up
I'm sure SEE would also hit very hard if he had +125% offense and +50% CD
Replies
Oh I'm sure many of us agree and most of us here also want some JML fixes as well.
JML feels great. His one issue is his ult generation.
SEE feels like crud. He is lackluster everywhere.
Which is exactly why I’ll never even attempt SEE.
Got JML with his ult and am pushing SLKR with Rey as an aside.
JML only needs something more to his Ult. Perhaps a bit more offense boost and even damage immunity for a turn or two on its activation. Nothing major.
SEE, on the other hand? Ha...oh man.
SEE beats SLKR perfectly fine. It requires some remodding and some strategy, but I have a reliable comp (~90% win rate, couple weeks of use against R8 SLKR) and a new one that I've just been told about and have had success with but needs more testing. It is not even close to "unwinnable". Message me if you want some more detail on the comps, but please stop yelling about how its impossible. I honestly find SLKR easier than Resistance Rey squads.
Could you post the videos here please? I would really like to see which comps you're beating, and the mods on both teams as well if you could.
I dont believe that you can beat all possible Rey comps with SEE+Wat. Rey, Han, Chewie, JKR and JKL/GAS would be a problem for sure. I agree in general that SEE is on par with other GL in arena. I did not try but heard that EP, DR, Malak, SEE and Vader beat SLKR reliably.
Pretty easy to be content when you got all the other GLs as well. Of course SEEs Niche uses wont bother you when you have all the other shiny things to complement him with.
While he has his uses, can you seriously say hes even nearly as usefull as any of the others? Im pretty competitive in both Arena and GAC, and hardly ever lose a single round in the latter, and so far my SEE is mostly relegated to a glorified Padme counter. My only other GL is SLKR and I cant imagine managing without him.
So you want Rey to be the most powerful GL then, ok.
SLKR, he beat Rey but his mom had to go and die to distract him and Rey took a cheap shot.
Yep that would make sense 👍🏻 Anything has gotta be better than Luke he really doesn’t deserve a GL tag
k
(also, just realized to follow movie lore, SLKR needs the LS tag and to be able to be on the same team as Rey....haha hes not strong enough yet anyway)
It is possible. However, the SLKR teams with two tanks are the ones I see in arena and the see teams I have seen against those are very dependent on perfect rng.
I'm not going to try and drive a square peg into a round hole. There are better counters. My point was to someone saying that see is "dominant on offense and can win reliably". I was simply pointing out that is not the case against slkr.
If you have a comp that reliably beats double tank SLKR teams, then I'm sure that the community would be interested to see it.
Sorry, you have SLKR confused with Ben Solo. Two different characters.
Mandelbros SEE/DR/BSF/Thrawn/GBA is 95%+ win rate for me. Very reliable and I believe I have only lost once to rng in the past 2 weeks. All against double tank.
Trying a new one from the sith discord channel which I am so far unsure about reliability with. Comp is SEE/Traya/Malak/Wat/SET. Weapons tech to SEE. Open with SEE basic and make sure he takes his second turn before sith trooper takes his first, link sith trooper and SLKR after isolating and dispelling the two tanks. Wait for ult and one shot the entire team. Needs some decent mods, and mine are currently not quite enough for beating R8 SLKR I think. Also against double tank.
If you want some videos I can make a couple.
1: win rate against Rey is 100% if you know how to mod your SEE. As I said many times, I can SEE/Wat 2 vs 5 against Rey, any combo and it is against 6B-6A modded top teams. And when I say modding SEE properly, I didn’t mean godly mods. They are mediocre mods that everyone have.
2: when I say 345+ speed, I am not talking about your DR mod. I am talking about the opposite JKR being 345+ speed before leader bonus. If you don’t get your Vader up speed up there, don’t even try vader.
3: those high offense Jericho team sucks in defense. I haven’t got chance to test against them using SEE because no one set such in D. While the Jericho one shot won’t work against my SEE modding in theory, I have to admit that I haven’t got chance to test, I expect no problem as I understand how Jericho version works.
Anyway, I am not arguing SEE is not different from other GLs, or didn’t have weakness. It does have some weakness comparing to other GLs. I think it is relatively balanced one, I understand that’s just my opinion because I values SEE in arena and GAC. It takes time to find best way to use SEE. Asking for a significant update is likely futile as it will tip the balance. And smaller touch won’t make much difference anyway.
2. I have never had a problem getting a wat vader team to go before a jkr. Vader gets ridiculous speed from Sith on a team and from enemy jedi. So with a jkr led Rey team he gets about 72 extra speed (4 sith/empire on my team and 4 enemy jedi). With that, it is easy out run jkr.
Even if you can mod correctly to make Rey 100% and have a comp that can reliably beat SLKR (I've heard claims but not seen evidence that the SLKR counters aren't really rng dependent.), then that would put see on par for arena offense but not dominate.
The other GLs can easily all beat all the other GLs on offense with proper team comp and modding.
My understanding is that see struggles against SLKR more than SLKR struggles against jml or jml struggles against see.
So at best he's on par. But he sucks everywhere else.
Yes. I seriously believe SEE is really good for PVP. (Arena and GAC) SEE is most flexible in beating any Rey JML combo with almost any combination of modding strategy with high banner. For GAC, that’s very good because you lock a particular modding without knowing how your opponent will mod their Rey or JML team. You don’t need worry if your opponent have a Vader proof Rey high tenacity/high Crit avoidance setup or Jedi proof setup, or forced to use JML or SLKR on Rey for a low banner win.
I used to feel sympathetic to SEE owner until I unlocked SEE myself and spent time to test various combo and modding strategy. I still agree SEE sucks in raid. But for other mode, arena, GAC, TB, and assault battle etc, it is pretty valuable for me compared with other GLs.
I beat all of the combo you listed easily (need mod properly of course, but using easily available mod, not those 20+ speed mods). I already DM video to some here against those teams with 340+ speed JKR with GAS JKL plus Rey or JML and HY or Wat etc.
Would love to see some of those high banner matches vs Rey (not throwing shade or anything, genuinely curious).
Will DM you some videos. You will get the idea why it doesn’t matter how the other aide is modded as long as SEE is modded properly.
There is and always will be an element of rng involved with a debuff focused team in a counter thanks to the 15% flat resist chance yes. What the SEE comps Im using do is make that rng as minimal as possible.
SEE/DR/BSF/GBA/Thrawn: Essentially the old DR counter without Han, but with less rng.
- SLKR stabs SET
- SEE links a tank and ST (reducing the charge rate on SLKR ult massively) and gives the team retribution (this is key to reducing the rng)
- Hux switches with SLKR and SLKR aoe's. This triggers DR to counter, giving a chance at applying buff immunity to a tank.
- BSF fears
- DR aoe's to apply shock to both tanks, and follow up with a basic for buff immunity. You have 2 chances to apply a debuff to prevent the taunts before GBA will dispel the taunts. Yes, there is still an element of rng, however it gives you an additional attempt at applying a debuff which makes it honestly very reliable.
The DR counter that I used to use had 3 chances at applying shock/buff immunity, which is the sole reason I would lose the battles. SEE reduces the odds a bunch (but the damage by comparison pains me).
You want the turn order to be SLKR > SEE > Hux > BSF > DR > Thrawn (swaps to GBA) > GBA > Thrawn. SLKR will often survive the fracture, which is usually a death sentence if not for Link slowing his ult charge down so much. Focus him as usual. He will often take a turn after fracture has ended, but not have enough ult charge to use it and will have a Geo Brute in his way so he cant kill anyone useful. Should die before his next turn, or you need more damage on DR and BSF. As always, against a Malak dont use more than one or two aoes here and there when you know you can win even if a character gets feared.
The second comp SEE/Traya/Malak/SET/Wat is at best an 85% win rate with correct modding due to the flat 15% resist chance on a shock from malak. If that misses your screwed. Not sure an R7 SEE can beat an R8 SLKR either without better mods than what I have.
That said, I still dont consider him on par just because you can beat his hard counter, and from what I can tell SLKR and JML have an easier time against their hard counter than SEE does. All three excel in areas that SEE is lacking in. He doesnt really do anything better than anyone else, and mostly does stuff worse than the other GLs.
I'll give that comp a try. Need a little remodding to make it work but nothing too bad.
until there is some sort of decision made, the only update we are likely to hear is that they are looking at it.... not what anyone wants to hear, but it is what it is.
also, 2 weeks off usually means you come back to backlog of things and still have to keep the things that are ahead of you on track, so lets not act like they are back yesterday and should just be spitting out anything more than what was done 2 weeks ago.
Very nice
You can check GAC history when it come out. I will DM you an arena video on Rey teams.
Offense up, Master's Training, Jedi's Will, CD Up
I'm sure SEE would also hit very hard if he had +125% offense and +50% CD