@str2019 If you think that SEE lower for investments, try to play with trash toons from his prerequisites. Players apart from 15 toons from prerequisites should have either SE team in Relics or Triumvirate
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
There hasn't been one solid argument that I've seen explaining why this garbage character shouldn't be buffed.
SEE is the "encouraged" follow-up to SLKR and if we compare SLKR + SEE pair vs. Rey + JML we see that SLKR + SEE provides a lot more value. Given that this path is the most popular choice among the population while also being cheaper it would not make much sense to give any serious buff to SEE. The only edge-case is people who as their 1st GL went for SEE but that is also justified with his lower requirements, besides he will remain very useful in taking out any and all Jedi in the game.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
What I don't understand is, putting GLs aside for now, every Legendary / Confrontation / Heroes Journey character has been on release impactful, typically becoming meta and staying relevant after the meta shifts. The other 3 GLs are much the same - dominant toons.
So how is it CG has seemingly got one of the most exclusive characters in the game so wrong?
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
My shard does not have a chat. Kinda wish it did. I tried making one myself and invited people but only 1 person joined. Think my shard has a lot of non-english speakers. Idk
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
Let that sink in.
Nothing to sink it. Again, without actual information that is meaningless.
I know you want a change and you have been very helpful, but that doesn't prove anything since it has literally no details to "let sink in"
Also, that is not really what anyone was talking about, if you were not trying to coordinate some sort of test that actually shows an element that can be addressed.
I get that people are frustrated, but this whole conversation is starting to get away from being constructive or helpful to the cause, that is something we should be striving to do.
You only find SEE surviving in new shards. My shard has 2 SEE, 6 SLKR and 1 Rey. I can test against the other SEE all I want, but neither of us has God mods to try different combos due to the time it takes to get those mods. Our shard is less than 1 year old. All of the older shards, you won't see SEE as he gets whacked immediately by everyone else.
You only find SEE surviving in new shards. My shard has 2 SEE, 6 SLKR and 1 Rey. I can test against the other SEE all I want, but neither of us has God mods to try different combos due to the time it takes to get those mods. Our shard is less than 1 year old. All of the older shards, you won't see SEE as he gets whacked immediately by everyone else.
I am on a older shard (late Nov '15)there are 2 that have been there floating in the top 20 this whole time. Yes those players do change things up, because both have all 4, but they are there and present much of the time.
You only find SEE surviving in new shards. My shard has 2 SEE, 6 SLKR and 1 Rey. I can test against the other SEE all I want, but neither of us has God mods to try different combos due to the time it takes to get those mods. Our shard is less than 1 year old. All of the older shards, you won't see SEE as he gets whacked immediately by everyone else.
I am on a older shard (late Nov '15)there are 2 that have been there floating in the top 20 this whole time. Yes those players do change things up, because both have all 4, but they are there and present much of the time.
What team(s) composition is / are those? Sith Trooper and Triumvirate?
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
Let that sink in.
Nothing to sink it. Again, without actual information that is meaningless.
I know you want a change and you have been very helpful, but that doesn't prove anything since it has literally no details to "let sink in"
Also, that is not really what anyone was talking about, if you were not trying to coordinate some sort of test that actually shows an element that can be addressed.
I get that people are frustrated, but this whole conversation is starting to get away from being constructive or helpful to the cause, that is something we should be striving to do.
What cause? I provided evidence of the his link ability being an issue and you blew it off. I won't waste crystals doing refreshes to test against the other SEE, but BSF in the squad provided too many ability blocks so I am still tweaking to ensure I have the proper amount of tenacity and enough defense. If I had access to a test play ground like the developers should, you would have these details immediately. Its pretty clear that SEE doesnt do enough damage and his link is broken, so modding enough defense to mitigate the incoming damage and ensure ability blocks don't occur. I would think multiple other non-jedi strong characters could solo SEE.
These GLs are made to make us work on characters we would never have worked on. Rose,krennic for example would have been the last characters anyone would invest in.
The devs saw how people simply sandbag their rosters and wanted to put a stop to that is my personal belief. You want a GL then it comes with a price. Puffing up your roster with meaningless characters. Fair enough the devs put work into those characters and are probably a little insulted nobody was working on leveling them. So if GLs come out around every 7 months then soon enough we will have relic tuskens and Jawas if they gate a GL behind them. I’m a collector so I’ve been working on those obscure characters all along. And it’s helped since I’m never far off from the prerequisites.
All this is fine with me if the outcome is a GL that is good. With SEE i don’t feel like I got that. I have all 4 and will only play SEE when facing Luke. Once I have Luke’s ultimate I probably won’t even do that. Just put Luke in and use him for offence and defence and call it a day.
Time to break out the really old metas and see if they can counter SEE or even solo him. Anyone wanna try a Nest solo? Daze's to stop the multi-attack plus big survivability against a team with almost no damage could make Nest a potential solo again which would be sad for SEE
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
Let that sink in.
Nothing to sink it. Again, without actual information that is meaningless.
I know you want a change and you have been very helpful, but that doesn't prove anything since it has literally no details to "let sink in"
Also, that is not really what anyone was talking about, if you were not trying to coordinate some sort of test that actually shows an element that can be addressed.
I get that people are frustrated, but this whole conversation is starting to get away from being constructive or helpful to the cause, that is something we should be striving to do.
On DEFENSE ---We have very few SEEs on arena, that makes some difficulties with collecting much info regarding his behavior on defense, just some feedbacks from guildmates how they annihilated SEE within a 1-1,5 m with Kylo, Rey etc. Naturally from time to time some players are lucky to fight against SEE, but the number of these players are not big enough.
The Reasons why only 250-300 out of 2300-2400 SEEs hold top positions on arena are also obvious, people should climb over walls of SLKR in order to fight against for example JML, the roster of arena makes impossible or expensive to use SEE, as for defense he is absolutely useless and even if people use one team for offense to beat SINGLE team (JML for example), they should spend additional attempts to leave the OTHER team just not to be soloed by KYLO, REY.
On OFFENSE
All the time you say that we should provide more and more info regarding SEE, you have already seen that he is able to counter JML in some compositions, also players have problems with REY because of his low basic damage, and many players have troubles with SLKR. Please have a look at Arena you will see that SKLR and REY now hold 90-95% and SEE seems some kind of Downgraded version of GL in comparison with them, who cannot adequately counter a good half of ARENA.
For devs is much easier to collect information with help of logs, monitoring tools etc.
The only fact that we see that he is farmed not so good as JML, and yes, only a couple of people use him for ARENA comparing with usage of JML, KYLO, REY.
KYLO, REY soloes, his miserable kit and other aspects make him very unpopular for now.
We can’t even test too much SEE to give Kyno the videos with data because noone uses SEE in arena because he is too trash.
All we see in arena is full of Rey, SLKR and JML.
But SEE we hardly see it. Like almost this GL doesn’t exist
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
Let that sink in.
Nothing to sink it. Again, without actual information that is meaningless.
I know you want a change and you have been very helpful, but that doesn't prove anything since it has literally no details to "let sink in"
Also, that is not really what anyone was talking about, if you were not trying to coordinate some sort of test that actually shows an element that can be addressed.
I get that people are frustrated, but this whole conversation is starting to get away from being constructive or helpful to the cause, that is something we should be striving to do.
1. His information is relative to how easily SEE gets crushed on defense. It took ten minutes to drop from top 3 to top 50 in terms of arena rewards. That is a devastating drop. It also displays info on how the community sees SEE as an easy target, acknowledging that even top tier active players know that he's bad. As evidenced by 7 people in a ten minute time frame knowing that they could beat that SEE to climb.
2. If we're gonna talk about whether the conversation is constructive or not, we have to talk about what that means. Firstly, the PR behind this character is awful. I get that public relations may not be CG's strong suit or highest priority, but even if it's just a bunch of complaining, a thread over twice the size of most MEGATHREADS on this entire forum is usually something you address. Especially after it's existed for a month. I would argue that a high level, experienced player, who is active in the forum community, has a right to give purely opinion-based arguments and have them considered relevant. After all, we are the people who have to play with the products they put out. They're the ones with the data. Also, what level of constructive can we be after everything that's been provided in these 1.3k replies? Do you expect them to look at our suggested fixes and actually use them? I'd be willing to bet actual money that if they ever do buff him or tweak him, that they don't take our fixes into account and come up with their own stuff anyway. We can't really be any more constructive than we already have been, but also at this point, complaints are productive. That's how PR works.
3. As evidenced by other people in different threads saying so, not everyone shard has an active shard chat, nor do many of them care about using their hard earned crystals and risking their ranking for testing. If you're saying he should've been setting up a defense test, that's pointless because we already know half the meta roster can solo SEE and there's nothing stopping someone greedy from climbing regardless of the shard chat. If you're saying he should've set up an offense test, then that already speaks volumes. Setting it up implies that he needs to ask people to move teams or unmod their existing team. SEE, a GL of high renown and power level, shouldn't need people to "set up" a test if he's truly a "devastating attacker." Saying that he didn't set up a test with a potentially non-existent or unhelpful shard chat doesn't actually disprove the value of his point in any way. If anything it strengthens it by showing how much effort we have to put into SEE getting any sort of win, only to drop 30 ranks anyway.
@Kyno Seems Team absolutely skipped the fact that Vader beats SEE in 3vs3, just imagine if JKL with WAT could beat JML, some toons from Resistance and First Oder could do the same with WAT against their related-class GLs, i'm absolutely sure that such facts won't be accepted very good by REY, SLKR, JML owners.
@Kyno All feedbacks in discord channels, on forums, in guild channels, which are mostly negative, not very high numbers of already farmed SEE, and a very few SEEs on Arena now in comparison with REY, JML, SLKR should have already attracted attention of Devs, that this toon is just released with between 70-80 % efficiency. But still we don't have any updates, news, alarms even after 5 weeks since his release. I don't think that we need more info that he is bad, as according to videos and feedbacks we found out that SEE is just invalid for half of game challenges at least.
What I don't understand is, putting GLs aside for now, every Journey / Confrontation / Heroes Journey character has been on release impactful, typically becoming meta and staying relevant after the meta shifts. The other 3 GLs are much the same - dominant toons.
So how is it CG has seemingly got one of the most exclusive characters in the game so wrong?
Ding ding ding. This is the problem.
Other people are bringing up some solid points and providing helpful perspective, but this is the core issue. And we know mechanically what makes SEE so weak--it's not a mystery that has to be discovered, locked behind some secret data or waiting for some Sith Messiah who has better mods and higher relics than @Shiryu . The question is why, and how that informs what CG will do about this. Maybe making that decision is going to take time, and maybe CG already pivoted to other priorities after releasing the GLs and it's tough to deal with this, but it's not due to a lack of players providing info.
What I don't understand is, putting GLs aside for now, every Journey / Confrontation / Heroes Journey character has been on release impactful, typically becoming meta and staying relevant after the meta shifts. The other 3 GLs are much the same - dominant toons.
So how is it CG has seemingly got one of the most exclusive characters in the game so wrong?
Ding ding ding. This is the problem.
Other people are bringing up some solid points and providing helpful perspective, but this is the core issue. And we know mechanically what makes SEE so weak--it's not a mystery that has to be discovered, locked behind some secret data or waiting for some Sith Messiah who has better mods and higher relics than @Shiryu . The question is why, and how that informs what CG will do about this. Maybe making that decision is going to take time, and maybe CG already pivoted to other priorities after releasing the GLs and it's tough to deal with this, but it's not due to a lack of players providing info.
This. We've done our part, and as realistic or reasonable as the excuses may be, anything that needs done about it at this point is on CG. We're probably still gonna grumble on this thread (as we deserve the right to for being sold a character like this), but at this point five weeks in with a huge thread's worth of data on this platform alone, the ball is in their court so to speak.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
I think it is a misconception at this point among people who have spent too much of their time here that SEE won't see much use. My arena shard is 3 years old and the following is for its top 40 players.
SLKRs: 15 of which 8 is going for SEE and 3 is going for JML. Only 1 out of the rest 4 can possibly do JML, for the rest he is too out of reach. 0 is going for Rey.
JMLs: 7. Most of the people with all four GLs use JML for defense.
SEEs: 2.
Rest Reys or non-GLs. There are fewer Reys than SLKRs.
It appears JMLs are good roadblocks for the SLKRs and the SLKR players need a tool to get through them that is a bit more comfortable than the F2P counters. If a player has the reqs or is close enough to JML they are more likely to choose him but since those reqs are very much out there he does not appear to be the popular option. There is also another hurdle with choosing JML in that the mirror matchup is mod-dependent and thus is for the majority unfavorable.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
I think it is a misconception at this point among people who have spent too much of their time here that SEE won't see much use. My arena shard is 3 years old and the following is for its top 40 players.
SLKRs: 15 of which 8 is going for SEE and 3 is going for JML. Only 1 out of the rest 4 can possibly do JML, for the rest he is too out of reach. 0 is going for Rey.
JMLs: 7. Most of the people with all four GLs use JML for defense.
SEEs: 2.
Rest Reys or non-GLs. There are fewer Reys than SLKRs.
It appears JMLs are good roadblocks for the SLKRs and the SLKR players need a tool to get through them that is a bit more comfortable than the F2P counters. If a player has the reqs or is close enough to JML they are more likely to choose him but since those reqs are very much out there he does not appear to be the popular option. There is also another hurdle with choosing JML in that the mirror matchup is mod-dependent and thus is for the majority unfavorable.
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
I think it is a misconception at this point among people who have spent too much of their time here that SEE won't see much use. My arena shard is 3 years old and the following is for its top 40 players.
SLKRs: 15 of which 8 is going for SEE and 3 is going for JML. Only 1 out of the rest 4 can possibly do JML, for the rest he is too out of reach. 0 is going for Rey.
JMLs: 7. Most of the people with all four GLs use JML for defense.
SEEs: 2.
Rest Reys or non-GLs. There are fewer Reys than SLKRs.
It appears JMLs are good roadblocks for the SLKRs and the SLKR players need a tool to get through them that is a bit more comfortable than the F2P counters. If a player has the reqs or is close enough to JML they are more likely to choose him but since those reqs are very much out there he does not appear to be the popular option. There is also another hurdle with choosing JML in that the mirror matchup is mod-dependent and thus is for the majority unfavorable.
SWGOH does not provide shard specific data.
None of that shows any correlation between SLKR and SEE unlocks.
I agree that shards are different, and will definitely show different data points, but nothing seen in a single shard or timeframe of shards will be representative of the whole in any meaningful way.
That is what makes SWGOH.GG a good tool for comparisons like this.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
I think it is a misconception at this point among people who have spent too much of their time here that SEE won't see much use. My arena shard is 3 years old and the following is for its top 40 players.
SLKRs: 15 of which 8 is going for SEE and 3 is going for JML. Only 1 out of the rest 4 can possibly do JML, for the rest he is too out of reach. 0 is going for Rey.
JMLs: 7. Most of the people with all four GLs use JML for defense.
SEEs: 2.
Rest Reys or non-GLs. There are fewer Reys than SLKRs.
It appears JMLs are good roadblocks for the SLKRs and the SLKR players need a tool to get through them that is a bit more comfortable than the F2P counters. If a player has the reqs or is close enough to JML they are more likely to choose him but since those reqs are very much out there he does not appear to be the popular option. There is also another hurdle with choosing JML in that the mirror matchup is mod-dependent and thus is for the majority unfavorable.
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
I can speak for my guild, those who have SLKR and Rey go for JML after they saw that See is just bad, One guy have already farmed him and and takes position between 15-20 on Arena, one continue to farm him as he is very close to him, one more just abandon his farming in favor of SLKR. And yes, for the last couple of weeks his farming decreased according to swgoh, other 3 GLs’ constant rise
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
There is currently no other data you can provide to answer to the question that was asked. Swgoh.gg does not provide segregation data for GL pair ownerships. Also there is the future angle that people who were less developed were more likely to go for SLKR, they were lagging months behind people who went for Rey and this should stay true for SEE as well. I think CG is very aware of all of this and sees this going as intended as you can see their intention was baked into the rock-paper-scissors relationship. It would not have worked if JML was to be countered by the SLKRs.
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
There is currently no other data you can provide to answer to the question that was asked. Swgoh.gg does not provide segregation data for GL pair ownerships. Also there is the future angle that people who were less developed were more likely to go for SLKR, they were lagging months behind people who went for Rey and this should stay true for SEE as well. I think CG is very aware of all of this and sees this going as intended as you can see their intention was baked into the rock-paper-scissors relationship. It would not have worked if JML was to be countered by the SLKRs.
I would think just by the fact that there are so few SEE's in general I could reasonably assume the pairings of SEE with any other GL are also few and far between. Considering that's how numbers work.
Also given his relative "ease of access" I can assume a fair few of those select SEE's are the only GL the owner has, so the number of pairings with SLKR is even smaller when you account for that. Not to mention, releasing them as pairings is irrelevant to what CG had planned, that makes no sense for game design especially if having the light side pair allows you to destroy the dark side pair.
Not to mention, with 1.3k posts arguing that he's bad and constantly citing numbers and data, I would think the burden of proof for your claim would be on you. I don't have to provide data for your entirely theoretical explanation for why he is potentially bad. I don't have to be the one finding those numbers when you are the one who came up with the claim.
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
There is currently no other data you can provide to answer to the question that was asked. Swgoh.gg does not provide segregation data for GL pair ownerships. Also there is the future angle that people who were less developed were more likely to go for SLKR, they were lagging months behind people who went for Rey and this should stay true for SEE as well. I think CG is very aware of all of this and sees this going as intended as you can see their intention was baked into the rock-paper-scissors relationship. It would not have worked if JML was to be countered by the SLKRs.
According to SWGoh we have now about 5500 JML vs 2300-2400 SEE, though requirements for JML far more tough
None of that shows any correlation between SLKR and SEE unlocks.
Sure it does, for my shard at least, but I would bet it is a common theme. SLKR was the majority GL choice and SEE was the majority next GL choice for the SLKR owners, making SLKR + SEE the most popular choice in that small population.
Here's a challenge. Do that same calculation for people on your shard and let's see if a surprisingly big portion of the SLKRs is actually going for SEE next.
None of that shows any correlation between SLKR and SEE unlocks.
Sure it does, for my shard at least, but I would bet it is a common theme. SLKR was the majority GL choice and SEE was the majority next GL choice for the SLKR owners, making SLKR + SEE the most popular choice in that small population.
Here's a challenge. Do that same calculation for people on your shard and let's see if a surprisingly big portion of the SLKRs is actually going for SEE next.
SLKR was the majority GL choice because of performance, and that didn't happen until after he got buffed to high heck. SEE is bad enough, and Rey (having been out longer and able to also beat Rey and JML teams herself) is the more prudent choice. Even if for some odd reason there is a correlation there, which I'm not convinced there is, then it's just people going for SEE cuz they like him, not as a smart utility choice. You'd be better served getting JML as a second with SLKR anyway so you can cover all the teams and mirror matches and you have a team good for LSGeo TB, unlike what happens if you get both Dark Side GL's.
Also gonna go out on a limb and say that if there is a correlation, most of it is coming from people who already have both of the old GL's and potentially already have JML, so there's no way to tie it exclusively to an SLKR/SEE pairing. There's just zero logic to such a thing.
None of that shows any correlation between SLKR and SEE unlocks.
Sure it does, for my shard at least, but I would bet it is a common theme. SLKR was the majority GL choice and SEE was the majority next GL choice for the SLKR owners, making SLKR + SEE the most popular choice in that small population.
Here's a challenge. Do that same calculation for people on your shard and let's see if a surprisingly big portion of the SLKRs is actually going for SEE next.
No SWGOH.gg shows a very high percentage of SLKR, and by far the lowest of all 4 GLs is SEE.
That is as unbiased data across the board as we can get, and those numbers dont lineup to show any correlation. If what you were saying was true we would see him in at least 3rd place and climbing.
Replies
I imagine that most players with SEE are in shard chats. So while this may be a little bit of effort, it's not really an issue for those who want the change.
Many people have provided videos, and done testing this way already.
I could be wrong here, but there is data that disproves that statement, we can see the number of unlocked SLKR, and the number of SEE, there does not seem to be any connection or correlation between the 2.
I dont see how to draw the conclusions that those 2 are a popular choice.
@CG_SBCrumb @CG_Doja_Fett FYI
So how is it CG has seemingly got one of the most exclusive characters in the game so wrong?
My shard does not have a chat. Kinda wish it did. I tried making one myself and invited people but only 1 person joined. Think my shard has a lot of non-english speakers. Idk
See... I tried to do that then got chained from 3 to 33 in less then 10 minutes. 7 battles.. 10 minutes. 3 slkr and 4 reys hit me.
Let that sink in.
Nothing to sink it. Again, without actual information that is meaningless.
I know you want a change and you have been very helpful, but that doesn't prove anything since it has literally no details to "let sink in"
Also, that is not really what anyone was talking about, if you were not trying to coordinate some sort of test that actually shows an element that can be addressed.
I get that people are frustrated, but this whole conversation is starting to get away from being constructive or helpful to the cause, that is something we should be striving to do.
I am on a older shard (late Nov '15)there are 2 that have been there floating in the top 20 this whole time. Yes those players do change things up, because both have all 4, but they are there and present much of the time.
What team(s) composition is / are those? Sith Trooper and Triumvirate?
What cause? I provided evidence of the his link ability being an issue and you blew it off. I won't waste crystals doing refreshes to test against the other SEE, but BSF in the squad provided too many ability blocks so I am still tweaking to ensure I have the proper amount of tenacity and enough defense. If I had access to a test play ground like the developers should, you would have these details immediately. Its pretty clear that SEE doesnt do enough damage and his link is broken, so modding enough defense to mitigate the incoming damage and ensure ability blocks don't occur. I would think multiple other non-jedi strong characters could solo SEE.
The devs saw how people simply sandbag their rosters and wanted to put a stop to that is my personal belief. You want a GL then it comes with a price. Puffing up your roster with meaningless characters. Fair enough the devs put work into those characters and are probably a little insulted nobody was working on leveling them. So if GLs come out around every 7 months then soon enough we will have relic tuskens and Jawas if they gate a GL behind them. I’m a collector so I’ve been working on those obscure characters all along. And it’s helped since I’m never far off from the prerequisites.
All this is fine with me if the outcome is a GL that is good. With SEE i don’t feel like I got that. I have all 4 and will only play SEE when facing Luke. Once I have Luke’s ultimate I probably won’t even do that. Just put Luke in and use him for offence and defence and call it a day.
On DEFENSE ---We have very few SEEs on arena, that makes some difficulties with collecting much info regarding his behavior on defense, just some feedbacks from guildmates how they annihilated SEE within a 1-1,5 m with Kylo, Rey etc. Naturally from time to time some players are lucky to fight against SEE, but the number of these players are not big enough.
The Reasons why only 250-300 out of 2300-2400 SEEs hold top positions on arena are also obvious, people should climb over walls of SLKR in order to fight against for example JML, the roster of arena makes impossible or expensive to use SEE, as for defense he is absolutely useless and even if people use one team for offense to beat SINGLE team (JML for example), they should spend additional attempts to leave the OTHER team just not to be soloed by KYLO, REY.
On OFFENSE
All the time you say that we should provide more and more info regarding SEE, you have already seen that he is able to counter JML in some compositions, also players have problems with REY because of his low basic damage, and many players have troubles with SLKR. Please have a look at Arena you will see that SKLR and REY now hold 90-95% and SEE seems some kind of Downgraded version of GL in comparison with them, who cannot adequately counter a good half of ARENA.
For devs is much easier to collect information with help of logs, monitoring tools etc.
The only fact that we see that he is farmed not so good as JML, and yes, only a couple of people use him for ARENA comparing with usage of JML, KYLO, REY.
KYLO, REY soloes, his miserable kit and other aspects make him very unpopular for now.
1. His information is relative to how easily SEE gets crushed on defense. It took ten minutes to drop from top 3 to top 50 in terms of arena rewards. That is a devastating drop. It also displays info on how the community sees SEE as an easy target, acknowledging that even top tier active players know that he's bad. As evidenced by 7 people in a ten minute time frame knowing that they could beat that SEE to climb.
2. If we're gonna talk about whether the conversation is constructive or not, we have to talk about what that means. Firstly, the PR behind this character is awful. I get that public relations may not be CG's strong suit or highest priority, but even if it's just a bunch of complaining, a thread over twice the size of most MEGATHREADS on this entire forum is usually something you address. Especially after it's existed for a month. I would argue that a high level, experienced player, who is active in the forum community, has a right to give purely opinion-based arguments and have them considered relevant. After all, we are the people who have to play with the products they put out. They're the ones with the data. Also, what level of constructive can we be after everything that's been provided in these 1.3k replies? Do you expect them to look at our suggested fixes and actually use them? I'd be willing to bet actual money that if they ever do buff him or tweak him, that they don't take our fixes into account and come up with their own stuff anyway. We can't really be any more constructive than we already have been, but also at this point, complaints are productive. That's how PR works.
3. As evidenced by other people in different threads saying so, not everyone shard has an active shard chat, nor do many of them care about using their hard earned crystals and risking their ranking for testing. If you're saying he should've been setting up a defense test, that's pointless because we already know half the meta roster can solo SEE and there's nothing stopping someone greedy from climbing regardless of the shard chat. If you're saying he should've set up an offense test, then that already speaks volumes. Setting it up implies that he needs to ask people to move teams or unmod their existing team. SEE, a GL of high renown and power level, shouldn't need people to "set up" a test if he's truly a "devastating attacker." Saying that he didn't set up a test with a potentially non-existent or unhelpful shard chat doesn't actually disprove the value of his point in any way. If anything it strengthens it by showing how much effort we have to put into SEE getting any sort of win, only to drop 30 ranks anyway.
Other people are bringing up some solid points and providing helpful perspective, but this is the core issue. And we know mechanically what makes SEE so weak--it's not a mystery that has to be discovered, locked behind some secret data or waiting for some Sith Messiah who has better mods and higher relics than @Shiryu . The question is why, and how that informs what CG will do about this. Maybe making that decision is going to take time, and maybe CG already pivoted to other priorities after releasing the GLs and it's tough to deal with this, but it's not due to a lack of players providing info.
This. We've done our part, and as realistic or reasonable as the excuses may be, anything that needs done about it at this point is on CG. We're probably still gonna grumble on this thread (as we deserve the right to for being sold a character like this), but at this point five weeks in with a huge thread's worth of data on this platform alone, the ball is in their court so to speak.
I think it is a misconception at this point among people who have spent too much of their time here that SEE won't see much use. My arena shard is 3 years old and the following is for its top 40 players.
SLKRs: 15 of which 8 is going for SEE and 3 is going for JML. Only 1 out of the rest 4 can possibly do JML, for the rest he is too out of reach. 0 is going for Rey.
JMLs: 7. Most of the people with all four GLs use JML for defense.
SEEs: 2.
Rest Reys or non-GLs. There are fewer Reys than SLKRs.
It appears JMLs are good roadblocks for the SLKRs and the SLKR players need a tool to get through them that is a bit more comfortable than the F2P counters. If a player has the reqs or is close enough to JML they are more likely to choose him but since those reqs are very much out there he does not appear to be the popular option. There is also another hurdle with choosing JML in that the mirror matchup is mod-dependent and thus is for the majority unfavorable.
I think it's also a misconception for a lot of people that their individual shard represents the entire game. So many people on here have shared that their shards see almost no use with similar GL demographics to yours, and the overall data shows that SEE across ALL SHARDS is seeing the least use of any GL by leaps and bounds. Individual testimony, in the grand scheme of things, actually doesn't mean much in terms of data.
SWGOH does not provide shard specific data.
None of that shows any correlation between SLKR and SEE unlocks.
I agree that shards are different, and will definitely show different data points, but nothing seen in a single shard or timeframe of shards will be representative of the whole in any meaningful way.
That is what makes SWGOH.GG a good tool for comparisons like this.
I can speak for my guild, those who have SLKR and Rey go for JML after they saw that See is just bad, One guy have already farmed him and and takes position between 15-20 on Arena, one continue to farm him as he is very close to him, one more just abandon his farming in favor of SLKR. And yes, for the last couple of weeks his farming decreased according to swgoh, other 3 GLs’ constant rise
There is currently no other data you can provide to answer to the question that was asked. Swgoh.gg does not provide segregation data for GL pair ownerships. Also there is the future angle that people who were less developed were more likely to go for SLKR, they were lagging months behind people who went for Rey and this should stay true for SEE as well. I think CG is very aware of all of this and sees this going as intended as you can see their intention was baked into the rock-paper-scissors relationship. It would not have worked if JML was to be countered by the SLKRs.
I would think just by the fact that there are so few SEE's in general I could reasonably assume the pairings of SEE with any other GL are also few and far between. Considering that's how numbers work.
Also given his relative "ease of access" I can assume a fair few of those select SEE's are the only GL the owner has, so the number of pairings with SLKR is even smaller when you account for that. Not to mention, releasing them as pairings is irrelevant to what CG had planned, that makes no sense for game design especially if having the light side pair allows you to destroy the dark side pair.
Not to mention, with 1.3k posts arguing that he's bad and constantly citing numbers and data, I would think the burden of proof for your claim would be on you. I don't have to provide data for your entirely theoretical explanation for why he is potentially bad. I don't have to be the one finding those numbers when you are the one who came up with the claim.
According to SWGoh we have now about 5500 JML vs 2300-2400 SEE, though requirements for JML far more tough
Sure it does, for my shard at least, but I would bet it is a common theme. SLKR was the majority GL choice and SEE was the majority next GL choice for the SLKR owners, making SLKR + SEE the most popular choice in that small population.
Here's a challenge. Do that same calculation for people on your shard and let's see if a surprisingly big portion of the SLKRs is actually going for SEE next.
SLKR was the majority GL choice because of performance, and that didn't happen until after he got buffed to high heck. SEE is bad enough, and Rey (having been out longer and able to also beat Rey and JML teams herself) is the more prudent choice. Even if for some odd reason there is a correlation there, which I'm not convinced there is, then it's just people going for SEE cuz they like him, not as a smart utility choice. You'd be better served getting JML as a second with SLKR anyway so you can cover all the teams and mirror matches and you have a team good for LSGeo TB, unlike what happens if you get both Dark Side GL's.
Also gonna go out on a limb and say that if there is a correlation, most of it is coming from people who already have both of the old GL's and potentially already have JML, so there's no way to tie it exclusively to an SLKR/SEE pairing. There's just zero logic to such a thing.
No SWGOH.gg shows a very high percentage of SLKR, and by far the lowest of all 4 GLs is SEE.
That is as unbiased data across the board as we can get, and those numbers dont lineup to show any correlation. If what you were saying was true we would see him in at least 3rd place and climbing.
He is 4th and holding while JML is rising.