are you saying that Tie Bomber stops profundity completely or just solves the problem of Prof getting max banners?
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
Oh, by the way, I agree that it would be bad to take TIE-B away from a fleet where it already works well and plays a crucial role, but if TIE-B would reliably reinforce first, using it with Levi for some purposes it might be worth it.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
Shhh!! Hopefully no one will talk about the Thrawn counter taking out Leviathan with only two reinforcements.
Do tell.
I don’t know what Fieldgulls is talking about specifically, but I’ve been able to take the 5* Levi in my arena with Chimera sometimes.
Needs 7* reliced TIEx1, TIE fighter, TIE Bomber using TIE Def, TIE Int and Gauntlet as RI. NOT an easy fight by any means, and very RNG as to who the AI targets and if that triggers TM gains. I don’t expect it to work against higher starred Levi either. It’ll do for me though until Levi unlock this month.
Account started June 2020. 100% FTP. 8.2m GP. JMK, JML, SLKR, and SEE. Exe and Levi. Ally code 117-269-921. Swgoh.gg
are you saying that Tie Bomber stops profundity completely or just solves the problem of Prof getting max banners?
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
I just tried using Tie Bomber as 1st reinforcement vs Profun and lost lol. I'll stick with my usual all sith fleet, I've found that to be more consistent after the bug "fixes"
are you saying that Tie Bomber stops profundity completely or just solves the problem of Prof getting max banners?
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
I just tried using Tie Bomber as 1st reinforcement vs Profun and lost lol. I'll stick with my usual all sith fleet, I've found that to be more consistent after the bug "fixes"
I've got very consistent results on offense without tie bomber also, but it took more than one fight to get there lol.
F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
It’s important when using TIE/Bomber against Profundity, to NOT use the AOE when first reinforcing. Instead, wait until the burning falls off, then use it.
are you saying that Tie Bomber stops profundity completely or just solves the problem of Prof getting max banners?
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
I just tried using Tie Bomber as 1st reinforcement vs Profun and lost lol. I'll stick with my usual all sith fleet, I've found that to be more consistent after the bug "fixes"
It’s important when using TIE/Bomber against Profundity, to NOT use the AOE when first reinforcing. Instead, wait until the burning falls off, then use it.
are you saying that Tie Bomber stops profundity completely or just solves the problem of Prof getting max banners?
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
I just tried using Tie Bomber as 1st reinforcement vs Profun and lost lol. I'll stick with my usual all sith fleet, I've found that to be more consistent after the bug "fixes"
Sure! That’s a tip shared by my fleet shard mates for general Profundity counters, because it stops the assists for a lot longer. I imagine it’s the same with Leviathan, because TIE/Bomber is serving the same role, regardless of the fleet you’re using.
From my understanding, TIE Bomber actually is deprioritized as a reinforcement. Hard to get enemy fleets to use it on defense.
I think that's the point that MasterSeedy is making. If they moved it up in the reinforcement priority for Leviathan it could make the Profundity counter a little more difficult, which is what at least some of us would like to see. I'm not convinced it's the best option, but I don't have a better one to offer, so I'd be in favor of it.
F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
I mean, I think making suspense a stronger debuff by disabling protection and/or stopping protection recovery and bonus protection, would definitely make Profundity a more uphill battle. Wouldn't really slow down Profundity ult directly, but it would make it easier to get take out the Rebel ships, get around Y-Wing, and significantly lower the likelihood of pulling off a 3 ship win with 77 banners. Would also help with the complaints about low damage output, although that's not something I've seen much of since they fixed TIE/Dagger, but apparently Leviathan fleet still struggles to take down the Y-Wing. And that's not something that would require totally reworking the entire kit to pull off.
Another option would be making daze a locked debuff, which would slow down the ult progress. But that might be TOO strong of an adjustment, if the goal is still allow Profundity to be a counter.
Full disclaimer: I don't have Leviathan yet myself, but I've been following the developments closely, because I've been working towards it for months now and should be able to unlock it during the next event.
From my understanding, TIE Bomber actually is deprioritized as a reinforcement. Hard to get enemy fleets to use it on defense.
I think that's the point that MasterSeedy is making. If they moved it up in the reinforcement priority for Leviathan it could make the Profundity counter a little more difficult, which is what at least some of us would like to see. I'm not convinced it's the best option, but I don't have a better one to offer, so I'd be in favor of it.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
The problem is that Suspense (and Doubt, really) can be cleansed, which will happen pretty quickly because of HMF.
Then maybe it needs to be a locked debuff, OR Leviathan needs to provide a way to ignore Outmaneuver. On defense the AI targeting isn't always smart enough to use it (like JMK will be all over the place sometimes), but sometimes HMF gets axed early and taken out of the equation.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
The problem is that Suspense (and Doubt, really) can be cleansed, which will happen pretty quickly because of HMF.
Then maybe it needs to be a locked debuff, OR Leviathan needs to provide a way to ignore Outmaneuver. On defense the AI targeting isn't always smart enough to use it (like JMK will be all over the place sometimes), but sometimes HMF gets axed early and taken out of the equation.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
The problem is that Suspense (and Doubt, really) can be cleansed, which will happen pretty quickly because of HMF.
For the record, I am not saying your idea is wrong I just haven't been able to put enough thought into it to decide whether it would be "Too OP" or not..... I have a 6 star Levi that will be 7 when the next event rolls around and even I don't want the ship to be completely unbeatable.... I kind of feel like that's the problem CG is having right now... trying to make it "king of fleets" while still keeping it reasonable...
Leviathan is simply the worst idea and worst CG implementation ever. It is practically useless unless it is at 7* and even so my Arena colleagues comment on the rng it has. I don't even know if it's worth investing the crystals I'm saving in taking it up to 7, of course at 4 it's more useless than a hose in a desert.
And to make it even worse, something happens in the Profundity vs Levi confrontations with the Sith Fighter in the rival's initial formation, sometimes it evades absolutely everything you throw at it. I have come to miss 7 attacks in a row, during 6 consecutive fights. That is too much to avoid to think that it is simply random or bad luck.
I typed out a response and for some reason it went into approval purgatory, so suffice it to say:
1) I understand and didn't take it that way
2) I'm guessing any changes that would prolong Profundity ult would make battle relatively unwinnable (for Profundity)
3) Therefore, it would seem that an intervention targeting Profundity's high regeneration, or allowing the debuffs to stick around longer, would make the battle more difficult, without making it impossible.
4) That being said, there can often by a huge gulf between how things sound in theory, versus how they work out in practice.
Then maybe it needs to be a locked debuff, OR Leviathan needs to provide a way to ignore Outmaneuver. On defense the AI targeting isn't always smart enough to use it (like JMK will be all over the place sometimes), but sometimes HMF gets axed early and taken out of the equation.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
The problem is that Suspense (and Doubt, really) can be cleansed, which will happen pretty quickly because of HMF.
For the record, I am not saying your idea is wrong I just haven't been able to put enough thought into it to decide whether it would be "Too OP" or not..... I have a 6 star Levi that will be 7 when the next event rolls around and even I don't want the ship to be completely unbeatable.... I kind of feel like that's the problem CG is having right now... trying to make it "king of fleets" while still keeping it reasonable...
My experience battling leviathan in Fleet Arena thus far. DEFEAT! Didnt even scratch the fleet. Not sure why people are complaining seems pretty OP from my experience. Used and Executor fleet against it.
Executor has always probably been the worst thing to use against it. Its fragile to negotiator, profundity and raddus even now
Have you seen anyone beat it with Raddus since the update
Well it consistently takes out the leviathan, just need a clean up
If it needs a clean-up to work, then Leviathan is getting holds. The existence of a two-shot counter should in no way be seen as a strike against it. There are probably lots of combinations of multiple fleets that could pick it apart - the same is true of profundity and executor as well.
edit: because I made a derp.
I'm fine with it being able to be 2 shot. I don't think Exec or Profun should be able to easily 1 shot it at this point. Seems like the bug fixes improved (at least for me) its offensive capability. Hopefully there will be some "fix" or buff to help it on D now
Yep. Agreed. Though I do think it's better on D now than it was, that's just a feeling I get. We'll see how the numbers look in a few weeks. I really don't have a problem with Prof being a counter - but I do wish it wasn't such an easy counter.
I think people are failing to remember that CG said that Levi would “surpass” both the executor and profundity at being “the best of the best”. If profundity so easily beats it then how can it be labeled as “the best of the best” and “surpassing”?
It does surpass them both. It beats both Executor and Profundity more easily and consistently than either of those two ships were beating each other, and I would wager that it's beating them more easily than their respective mirror matches. It would be great if the Profundity counter wasn't so easy but every team needs a counter, otherwise we're just riding the power creep train into roster obsolescence with every new release.
Does it only take 3 ships from other fleets with no reinforcements to beat the other top tier capitals? You may have a win on the offense side of things more consistently but it’s arguably worse now than the other 2 on defense. CG said “best of the best”. This is clearly not the case.
Does it matter how easy the singular hard counter for Leviathan is? If you're only going to consider defensive performance as a metric, I think you're missing a big part of the picture, but for the sake of the conversation, let's say that offense doesn't matter - all that matters is defense.
Speaking purely from a defense perspective:
Profundity has two hard counters now and at least a couple (or more?) soft counters.
The same is true of Executor.
Leviathan has one hard counter and soft counters are still being figured out.
So purely from a defensive standpoint - how is that not better?
Banners in GAC is why it matters. Levi can’t beat any fleet as easily as Prof beats Levi and unless something changes Levi will be a 100% offensive fleet. Nobody will give away those max banners for long.
This is the same reason SEE (until very recent changes with Savage) is never placed on defense. Levi = SEE. Amazing on offense but way too much of a liability on defense to place.
Well that's assuming your opponent doesn't put Prof on defense - they probably wouldn't, but that also means you don't have to deal with their prof on defense, meaning they'll be setting something weaker. But the other side of that coin is, doesn't having a superior offensive tool at your disposal allow you to set a better defense?
The original point was this:
I think people are failing to remember that CG said that Levi would “surpass” both the executor and profundity at being “the best of the best”. If profundity so easily beats it then how can it be labeled as “the best of the best” and “surpassing”?
And I think that it's clear that Leviathan IS the best of the best and it IS surpassing Exec and Prof. Defense banners in GAC (but only when met with it's single hard counter) not withstanding - this fleet outperforms both of them. Cherry picking a single use case and claiming that it's "worse" than the other two is disingenuous.
How long have you been doing public relations for CG now? lol
If it was "the best of the best" we wouldn't be able to beat it with even one fleet with just three ships. That's not "Meta defining". It's just not. (That's even without all the bugs that keep happening.)
CG wants to up the cost players pay for new shinies, but doesn't want to match that increased cost with a return in quality because QA isn't a priority for them, allegedly.
They can't even make sure it works right before release because they're afraid of beta testers.
Oh and by the way, if the Mark VI comes in after you sabotage the hangar, it doesn't insta-kill, but it will insta-kill one of your units when it does a basic! Yay, so meta definining and truly BEST OF THE BEST, With honors, Sir!
At least make it work the way it's supposed to so we can be sure it sucks or not? Pretty please?
I just beat a max Profundity with a 5-star Leviathan (no Bomber). Before the bug fixes, I could always hit my alt but would timeout as I couldn’t do any damage. That problem seems to have gone away. Sith Fighter is important either as the starter or 1st reinforcements for getting your Sith ships foresight.
(Actually would have beat as I was using up extra attacks after my payout)
Just repeated the battle with the same result. Started Sith Fighter, Fury, Sith Bomber
Engines, Hanger, reinforce Dagger in, basic, reinforce Mk6 to kill Dash, Ult
Prior to the ult, all the attacks were directed at the Ywing
Lobster, r5 Malgus, r5 Marauder with 6-dot mods
SET, r5 Assassin with 5-dot mods
Lost Sith Fighter and MK6 in both battles prior to ult. Fury and Bomber never lost bulwark. I used Shuttle as the last reinforcement but will try Scimitar tomorrow.
How long have you been doing public relations for CG now? lol
These jokes never get old.
If it was "the best of the best" we wouldn't be able to beat it with even one fleet with just three ships. That's not "Meta defining". It's just not. (That's even without all the bugs that keep happening.)
Yeah, we got it - the only right answer for you is for Leviathan to not have a counter. I'd bet hard cash that if that's what we had, you'd be here complaining that nothing can beat it.
The fact is, Executor is no longer a reliable option for climbing in fleet arena - where before, it was perfectly fine. Executor struggles to beat this fleet, and the Executor/Profundity meta has been disrupted. By any objective measure, Leviathan has redefined the fleet meta. This is indisputable. To claim otherwise is simply false. This is not a case where repeating the lie often enough will make it true. But if you REALLY believe that, or if the axe you're grinding obliges you to - by all means, keep telling people the meta hasn't changed. Hopefully that means fewer people will unlock it and my own advantage in having it will be all the more pronounced.
CG wants to up the cost players pay for new shinies, but doesn't want to match that increased cost with a return in quality because QA isn't a priority for them, allegedly.
They can't even make sure it works right before release because they're afraid of beta testers.
I've been clear about my thoughts on this. Your assumption is wrong. This was a terrible release and CG should be embarrassed by it, but not for the reasons you're insisting on. You know that software companies sometimes knowingly cut buggy releases, right? You're desperately trying to paint them as incompetent - which is laughable to anyone that's paid even a little bit of attention to the games financial track record.
Oh and by the way, if the Mark VI comes in after you sabotage the hangar, it doesn't insta-kill, but it will insta-kill one of your units when it does a basic! Yay, so meta definining and truly BEST OF THE BEST, With honors, Sir!
At least make it work the way it's supposed to so we can be sure it sucks or not? Pretty please?
I climb with it every day, always reinforce M6 after using StH, and I haven't once seen this happen since I unlocked it. Have you reported this to AnswersHQ?
Plenty of people have been using it since release and established that it's a strong fleet - even before the bug fixes (of which there are more needed). Plenty of high profile players have gone on record saying it's a strong fleet. Since people in the know seem to feel that way, and your feelings on it are so completely contrary to that view, have you considered that maybe you're using it wrong?
F2P since the last time I bought Kyros, Crystals, or the Conquest Pass.
And I think that it's clear that Leviathan IS the best of the best and it IS surpassing Exec and Prof. Defense banners in GAC (but only when met with it's single hard counter) not withstanding - this fleet outperforms both of them. Cherry picking a single use case and claiming that it's "worse" than the other two is disingenuous.
erm... no. Its on par with profundity, thats just it. With lower stars levi is a bit worse, but if you invest a bit more resources in Prif's pilots (for phantom and mb a ghost) like in leviathan(same relics), prof will be even better both on offense and defense. And if its ok, think of 2 conquest units. I wouldn't mind profundity been on par with levi, if it was with conquest unit(red5 for example). But currently, if red5 shows up there won't be anything to counter it and levi will be more expensive. So I think devs should raise levi a bit, for profundity to require not just 5* to get through full r9 levi, but at least 6* and r5 pilots of fantom(ezra-sabine-chopper), or just 7* prof.
For Leviathan to be a meta defining capital ship, they need to make the Crit damage immunity undispellable to stop Profundity and Tie Defender counters.
For Leviathan to be feel enjoyable and make some good damage and not waiting behind a tank the whole time until Mark VI RI. They should just adjust Malak's ship more damage based or Buff Tie Daggers DPS ( This Leviathan situation is almost like LV but there are no DC to make the fleet better ) so there is no escape rather than buffing the fleet's damage somehow. If they want Leviathan to be META DEFINING.
Replies
it can't be tested on defense, but if it works the way it does on offence, a first-reinforcement TIE-B would come in and disable all assists. Profundity then can't reach ULT (no assists for 2-3 turns depending on how the AI plays it). Victory for Profundity then becomes very unlikely.
This trick is also used in Profundity mirror matches to trivialize them.
If suspense debuff worked more like doubt and just disabled bonus protection/protection recovery, that alone would probably be enough to make the Profundity counter much weaker, and definitely strip banners.
Is that for real, or joking? I hope its just a joke...
I don’t know what Fieldgulls is talking about specifically, but I’ve been able to take the 5* Levi in my arena with Chimera sometimes.
Needs 7* reliced TIEx1, TIE fighter, TIE Bomber using TIE Def, TIE Int and Gauntlet as RI. NOT an easy fight by any means, and very RNG as to who the AI targets and if that triggers TM gains. I don’t expect it to work against higher starred Levi either. It’ll do for me though until Levi unlock this month.
7* Levi what?
Maybe its like Mad Libs or finish that sentence. I'll give it a try....
7-star Levi . . . . . isn't surpassing the META (at least on defense)
I just tried using Tie Bomber as 1st reinforcement vs Profun and lost lol. I'll stick with my usual all sith fleet, I've found that to be more consistent after the bug "fixes"
I've got very consistent results on offense without tie bomber also, but it took more than one fight to get there lol.
ahhh, ok, thank you. I'll try that next time
I think that's the point that MasterSeedy is making. If they moved it up in the reinforcement priority for Leviathan it could make the Profundity counter a little more difficult, which is what at least some of us would like to see. I'm not convinced it's the best option, but I don't have a better one to offer, so I'd be in favor of it.
Another option would be making daze a locked debuff, which would slow down the ult progress. But that might be TOO strong of an adjustment, if the goal is still allow Profundity to be a counter.
Full disclaimer: I don't have Leviathan yet myself, but I've been following the developments closely, because I've been working towards it for months now and should be able to unlock it during the next event.
The problem is that Suspense (and Doubt, really) can be cleansed, which will happen pretty quickly because of HMF.
For the record, I am not saying your idea is wrong I just haven't been able to put enough thought into it to decide whether it would be "Too OP" or not..... I have a 6 star Levi that will be 7 when the next event rolls around and even I don't want the ship to be completely unbeatable.... I kind of feel like that's the problem CG is having right now... trying to make it "king of fleets" while still keeping it reasonable...
And to make it even worse, something happens in the Profundity vs Levi confrontations with the Sith Fighter in the rival's initial formation, sometimes it evades absolutely everything you throw at it. I have come to miss 7 attacks in a row, during 6 consecutive fights. That is too much to avoid to think that it is simply random or bad luck.
1) I understand and didn't take it that way
2) I'm guessing any changes that would prolong Profundity ult would make battle relatively unwinnable (for Profundity)
3) Therefore, it would seem that an intervention targeting Profundity's high regeneration, or allowing the debuffs to stick around longer, would make the battle more difficult, without making it impossible.
4) That being said, there can often by a huge gulf between how things sound in theory, versus how they work out in practice.
How long have you been doing public relations for CG now? lol
If it was "the best of the best" we wouldn't be able to beat it with even one fleet with just three ships. That's not "Meta defining". It's just not. (That's even without all the bugs that keep happening.)
CG wants to up the cost players pay for new shinies, but doesn't want to match that increased cost with a return in quality because QA isn't a priority for them, allegedly.
They can't even make sure it works right before release because they're afraid of beta testers.
Oh and by the way, if the Mark VI comes in after you sabotage the hangar, it doesn't insta-kill, but it will insta-kill one of your units when it does a basic! Yay, so meta definining and truly BEST OF THE BEST, With honors, Sir!
At least make it work the way it's supposed to so we can be sure it sucks or not? Pretty please?
(Actually would have beat as I was using up extra attacks after my payout)
Engines, Hanger, reinforce Dagger in, basic, reinforce Mk6 to kill Dash, Ult
Prior to the ult, all the attacks were directed at the Ywing
Lobster, r5 Malgus, r5 Marauder with 6-dot mods
SET, r5 Assassin with 5-dot mods
Lost Sith Fighter and MK6 in both battles prior to ult. Fury and Bomber never lost bulwark. I used Shuttle as the last reinforcement but will try Scimitar tomorrow.
These jokes never get old.
Yeah, we got it - the only right answer for you is for Leviathan to not have a counter. I'd bet hard cash that if that's what we had, you'd be here complaining that nothing can beat it.
The fact is, Executor is no longer a reliable option for climbing in fleet arena - where before, it was perfectly fine. Executor struggles to beat this fleet, and the Executor/Profundity meta has been disrupted. By any objective measure, Leviathan has redefined the fleet meta. This is indisputable. To claim otherwise is simply false. This is not a case where repeating the lie often enough will make it true. But if you REALLY believe that, or if the axe you're grinding obliges you to - by all means, keep telling people the meta hasn't changed. Hopefully that means fewer people will unlock it and my own advantage in having it will be all the more pronounced.
I've been clear about my thoughts on this. Your assumption is wrong. This was a terrible release and CG should be embarrassed by it, but not for the reasons you're insisting on. You know that software companies sometimes knowingly cut buggy releases, right? You're desperately trying to paint them as incompetent - which is laughable to anyone that's paid even a little bit of attention to the games financial track record.
I climb with it every day, always reinforce M6 after using StH, and I haven't once seen this happen since I unlocked it. Have you reported this to AnswersHQ?
Plenty of people have been using it since release and established that it's a strong fleet - even before the bug fixes (of which there are more needed). Plenty of high profile players have gone on record saying it's a strong fleet. Since people in the know seem to feel that way, and your feelings on it are so completely contrary to that view, have you considered that maybe you're using it wrong?
For Leviathan to be feel enjoyable and make some good damage and not waiting behind a tank the whole time until Mark VI RI. They should just adjust Malak's ship more damage based or Buff Tie Daggers DPS ( This Leviathan situation is almost like LV but there are no DC to make the fleet better ) so there is no escape rather than buffing the fleet's damage somehow. If they want Leviathan to be META DEFINING.