Also, how are they handling getting kicked during a Raid, but before rewards are handed out?
In every Guild there is an "inner circle". Most visible as the Leader and Officers. What if you are performing too well. What if, you are going to take #1, but the Leader has quietly decreed that it is his buddy's turn out of the inner circle to receive those rewards. And then, during Phase 3, after putting in a colossal effort, you find yourself guild-less.
I know it is the cynic in me speaking here, but we all know these things do happen. And the current reward system encourages this type of behavior.
Eeeeek.
I shutter at the thought of that level of nefariousness.
Wouldn't wish that upon anyone. Not even the biggest trolls on these forums! That's saying something...
Is there a single, solitary person that actually disagrees with this well-written and well reasoned OP?
At most, some say it might not turn out to be quite as bad as it first seems. At most. Haven't noticed anybody disagree with the principles it raises though.
Does anybody at all actually want competition within the guild?
Quite concerning that there's still been no dev response considering this thread has now been going non-stop for nearly a full 24 hours...
It's definitely been noticed - I guess they're just deciding the best course of action to correct the problem
Like the shard shop update, like the lvl cap increase when none wanted it, like the gear change update...
Sure they are deciding the best course of action... Maybe another trailer of just a door opening, for the update that will arrive in two months. A lot of sheep will start apologising and thanking devs once again, if they did that.
This post is very well written and pretty long. Although I generally avoid reading so long posts I must admit that your writting got me and I read the whole thing.
I will not agree with you 100% though specially to the part of looting in other MMO games. Always in any organized guild (I was in one playing World Of warcraft for a long time) players that contributed more to the guild looted better. I must say here that everyone had their chance to the loot but in general if you were more active , better player , less @#$hole you were getting the loot you wanted before someone else , and eventually the others could get the loot after the above players were geared.
Saying this looting in a raid must have a distiction between players , you cannot leave everything in luck although the gear boxes that we will get from the raid may contain a very good gear but with less chances that if you got a higher lvl box.
I agree that dps is not optimal into categorize contribution to the raid , but you cannot equalize 50 players ( the one that made almost 5 perfect attempts , reading all the data of the boss and the raid , calculating 5 optimal teams and eventually play very well their abilities , with someone that forgot to log in one day and simply was added to a guild for fun and for some loot , why not ....
This is my opinion , always in good thinking that we all contribute to have a better game at the end and not simply arguing to each other
p.s. very well written post , you made me remember of the good old warcraft days
Well written, sums up how we are all feeling.
Remove the leaderboards, reward all guild members with the chance to gain good loot.
How can you ask someone to invest time and money all week long for your guild, only for them to finish 50th on some ridiculous leaderboard and receive a pathetic reward for all their efforts.
This post is quite long. This is not something I take lightly, and I realize this is a good 5 to 10 minutes of reading. If you skim through it, thanks for at least trying. If you take the time to read the whole thing, thank you. No matter what though, please understand that it is not my intention to shed light on this topic from the angle of someone that cares about being at the top. I'm speaking on behalf of an entire group of people, and we all feel very strongly about this. A lot of us are P2P, it's true, but we're also passionate gamers that are active in more games across more genres than you would probably expect.
This post is being written by someone that enjoys raiding as a guild.
Like many others, this recent patch was the make or break moment for my interest in SWGOH as a whole. I've been a member of Team Instinct for months now, and they've more or less become the reason why I play this game at all. We keep up to date on everything CG feeds us, and we've been focused solely on maximizing our rosters while patiently waiting for Guilds and Raids for months, and we couldn't be more excited to actually try some real content in this game.
Raiding has always been, first and foremost, about playing with your friends. Sure, pick up raids exist; they can be a means to an end in scooping up some last second loot when you need it. There aren't nearly as many people out there with memorable PUG raid experiences as there are those with genuine lasting memories of the games they played at times in their lives with groups of people they felt at home with, though.
My personal experiences with raiding include the tried and true World of Warcraft for many of it's expansions, SW:TOR for most of it's early life, and most recently Wildstar, a game with the most punishing and brutal raiding I've ever seen to date. No matter the title or style of raid though, one thing was always constant – raiding was something you couldn't do alone. Raiding was something that meant coordination, teamwork and effort. It usually wasn't easy, you usually weren't enjoying countless wipes, and you certainly had a difficult time explaining to friends and family why you weren't available to go out that night, but you sure did feel that addicting adrenaline rush every time you beat a new progression boss.
It's difficult to really pin down expectations for “Raiding” in what is very much a freemium model game. Sure, SWGOH is extremely merciful to it's free to play crowd, in ways some would argue are very difficult to find in rival games, but at it's core is still that grinning little devil of freemium addiction. Regardless, the notion of Raiding carries with it a very real sense of camaraderie with your guild mates – it's something a lot of us have many, many hours of experience with across a vast collection of games. When we hear the word, it instantly triggers many thoughts about where the possibilities could go. How does it play out in a mobile setting, though? Is it the same sense of collaboration and effort, or is it just another freemium-designed cash grab?
Well, early signs have pointed to the idea of it just maybe being something more engaging than one would initially expect from a mobile offering. We're genuinely excited for it. The concept seems fun, the encounter seems to have a lot of rules and gimmicks in place, and it FEELS like raiding should feel... preparations and comp tinkering, studying abilities and their cooldowns and devising strategies to best suit different situations... all of the pieces are here. This could actually work!
However, the rewards are a glaring issue for us.
Here's the thing – I understand the need for any freemium game to keep it's pay wall in place. I get it. Everything can't be for free, people need to pay to keep the engine moving, it's nothing new. Anyone here from the smallest minnow to the biggest blubbery whale understands that money has to keep coming in. What we are saying though, and what we're saying louder than we've ever said before, is that there needs to be a point in this game's life cycle where it finally feels like we're actually just being rewarded for what we've done.
Let me elaborate on that last part a bit.
Essentially, pay walls already exist well before we get to the Rancor – first, you need to spend energy to build up Guild Coins for the guild. While this doesn't necessarily take money to complete, it does take time and effort. Daily Guild Activites, however, definitely bring in the money... and plenty of it. We don't mind competing with each other over this – in fact, it can be kind of fun. Some days are easier to split the purse on, so having a few other days be friendly rivalry is okay with us. But, that's not all... you also need teams of worthy characters, plenty of gear to flesh them out, and star ranks to ensure they're raid-worthy.
All of this adds up to a lot of work. The raid itself is basically the culmination of everything you've done finally being put to the ultimate test. It's the “end game” this game has so desperately needed.
This is where things fly off of the rails, though.
Any game that has ever had even halfway decent raiding, has never had mindless raiding. It's never been about “who does the most damage,” as there's almost always more at stake. Even when damage is an absolute priority, it usually almost always has balanced loot systems in place that ultimately reward everyone, too. You see, that's the best part about raiding... that's why everyone sticks through it even if they're the weakest link; in time, everyone gets that moment of feeling like they received the best loot the encounter has to offer. Everyone. Not the top performers, not just the leaders, everyone.
That's an important part of the raiding process. That's the part that makes the whole working as a team bit fulfilling.
Having a system where a small handful of players out of a large group of fifty are handed the keys to the best loot kingdom, based on a metric that doesn't even really make sense (more on that in a second) is essentially eviscerating the spirit of guild raiding without mercy. It's taking the fun of celebration and the motivation of “maybe this week is my week for loot,” and instead replacing it with a Rich Get Richer scheme of appointing the best loot to those already performing at the top levels, thus ensuring their chances at repeat performances are higher.
The metric in place doesn't even really make sense to me, either. The Rancor Encounter is divided in to three phases, and as you progress through each phase he becomes increasingly more difficult and deadly. The first phase, he attacks slower and is more susceptible to effects, whereas by the last phase he attacks upwards of three times at once and is incredibly hard to finish off. Naturally, what this means is the last phase will result in more character deaths, and players will need to focus more effort on throwing bodies at the beast to deliver the final points of damage needed. Keep in mind, though, that the metric for “success” on this “leaderboard” is nothing more than damage done! Phase 1, the Rancor is far less deadly, meaning anyone inclined to maximize their positioning on the leaderboard will be more concerned with utilizing every ounce of their five attempts on the weakest, simplist phase, and less inclined to help assist on the final back-breaking onslaught.
This metric for loot determination is undermining the entire emphasis on teamwork and planning ahead. An all too common pet peeve for any experienced raider is the tunnel vision focus of only caring about the DPS Meter – a trap many a guild leader have sacrificed years of their life yelling over in an effort to try and get raids back to focusing on what's actually supposed to matter. Here, not only is the DPS Meter front and center, but it's become judge and jury for determining the best part of the raid... the loot everyone gets when it's over. This really is the worst possible outcome.
Again, the Rancor should be that moment where we finally feel like we're just being rewarded. It shouldn't have to feel like competition among our friends, it shouldn't be a poorly veiled attempt at “getting us to pay more,” and it shouldn't be something that people get burned out over because they “didn't do enough damage.” We've already paid everything we can to develop our characters, help develop the guild and accomplish all of the activities associated with preparing for the raid, so what exactly is it you think we're going to suddenly need to engage in to make us feel more competitive on a raiding leaderboard?
If I ask the question, “Why does the raiding leaderboard need to even exist in the first place?” you're all going to say the exact same thing in response: “Because they want you to compete with each other so they can try to make more money.” Do we have any other valid excuse? Is this seriously where the bottom line is drawn? Is the countless amount spent on Chromiums, crystal refreshes for gear and energy and store shipments and Aurodiums and every other expense not enough? Must we be at each others throats over something so depressing as this, too? And, again, where is one even supposed to maximize efforts here if they're already performing on all levels in all areas of the game?
It's my firm belief that there shouldn't even BE an inner-guild leaderboard for the raid itself, and that loot should just be distributed 100% evenly, but I know that will just fall on deaf ears. So, instead, let me give my second best suggestion: the loot rewards should be tinkered so that everyone gets paid out way, way deeper in the “good stuff,” with the good stuff having higher variance. The “red boxes” can be all sorts of stuff, right? Sometimes good, sometimes junk? Sometimes it's what you want, other times it isn't? Well, isn't that more or less the same raid loot system I described above? THIS is what the game should be focusing on. THIS is what should be taking place.
If 30 people get a red loot crate for killing a Heroic Rancor, but only 5-10 get the high high end loot out of those crates, you've essentially re-created the randomness of typical loot in any raiding scenario of any MMO in the last 15 years. As developers, you have the power to control those numbers so that only so many people out of the 50 are still walking away with the top end loot, but the difference from the current system is many, many more players in the group get to experience the rush of opening loot. Yeah, some will win and some will lose, but at least everyone had a chance. At least it wasn't decided on an entirely superfluous metric no one should actually care about.
Raiding has a chance to be a real game changer for SWGOH. It has a chance to take this game to a brand new level. However, this reward system is really, really holding it back... you're shooting yourself in one foot while trying to show off the gold plated shoe on the other. You're so close to making this great, why sell us short on the most important aspect? Why ruin something so close to greatness?
The ball's in your court CG. We really hope you re-consider this approach. Deeper payouts, splashed with variance - take the reigns and make this as close to real video game raiding as a freemium game can be.
I just wanted to say, that I haven't read the OP for days, because I thought it would be overly long. It is not. It is short and well articulated, took me about two and a half minutes to read. I agree with the OP on all points.
Futhermore I think there is a difference between CG and EA. CG is a game studio and EA is a soulless money making machine owned by gray faced penny pinchers. EA's directives overrule everyone involved, especially creative and good hearted EA employees. I feel pity for these. Even if they are doing a fine job, they just can't tell a chick in a bar "Well, I work at EA!" without getting Pina Colada all over their face and the bouncers grabbing them by the neck. They have to lie to their own spouses about who their employer is and if their grandparents would ever get wind of it, surely it would be their last breath. *ramble, ramble, ramble...*
They could implement some sort of model like the looking for raid system in world of warcraft... All have a chance for a drop, use X currency for extra chance... Not that I say it has to copypaste the model, but something that can benefit all, and won't have people thinking bout what phase is most effective to contribute in
I've just read most of the posts on this thread and pretty much every single one is in support of the OP, this kind of feedback must be noticed by @EA_Jesse and @CG_JohnSalera surely?
all these +1's must be adding up to some sort of change
I'm probably one of the few who thinks rewards should be effort based (like the dailies) but even I think that last place should still get the same stuff (just less of it) compared with first. They already do this with the Han shards, coins, credits, etc eg 10 shards for first, 1 shard for last.
However, i think adding a toggle option for each called raid where you can have competitive (with loot like i say above, not the massive gap currently between first and last) or equal (where everyone gets the same). That way each guild gets to choose the loot type.
"No Hassle" guild, for those who want star wars, not drama wars!
I've just read most of the posts on this thread and pretty much every single one is in support of the OP, this kind of feedback must be noticed by @EA_Jesse and @CG_JohnSalera surely?
all these +1's must be adding up to some sort of change
The OP happens to be a grand whale. He spent so much money for this game already. Something tells me that if some new (Han Solo), overpowered heroes get added, he is gonna spend some more. If he doesn't have Sun Fac already... If he had the ability to stop spending now, he wouldn't have spend that much in the first place. Big companies (including EA) even consult psychologists in order to make people susceptible to spending more. Maybe EA doesn't know to make good games, but in making money they are second to none.
I'm probably one of the few who thinks rewards should be effort based (like the dailies) but even I think that last place should still get the same stuff (just less of it) compared with first. They already do this with the Han shards, coins, credits, etc eg 10 shards for first, 1 shard for last.
However, i think adding a toggle option for each called raid where you can have competitive (with loot like i say above, not the massive gap currently between first and last) or equal (where everyone gets the same). That way each guild gets to choose the loot type.
My issue is not some degree of differentiation for the raid rewards, it's the HUGE disparity between the top and bottom. It also feeds the "rich get richer" problem. I'm fine with giving the top contributors a little extra - but even the difference between 1st and even 11th is far too wide - over twice as much of the "good stuff" (i.e. shards & gear chances). Obviously the over 10 times as much for the top producer as compared to the bottom 10 is crazy.
Over time, this payout system will only make the difference between the more powerful players in the guild and the lesser ones worse - only pushing the entire disparity issue further.
The scaling on the rewards system needs to be evened out so as to allow the big contributors a bonus, but not one that is so large that it creates animosity and actually worsens the disparity of power within in the guild. The way to achieve balance and team work within a guild is NOT to make the powerful significantly more so, while at the same time, making sure the less powerful players stay that way. That's backwards.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
Replies
Have all of my monthly +'s
++++++++++++++
Eeeeek.
I shutter at the thought of that level of nefariousness.
Wouldn't wish that upon anyone. Not even the biggest trolls on these forums! That's saying something...
It's definitely been noticed - I guess they're just deciding the best course of action to correct the problem
At most, some say it might not turn out to be quite as bad as it first seems. At most. Haven't noticed anybody disagree with the principles it raises though.
Does anybody at all actually want competition within the guild?
Anybody?
Or they've noticed, and ignored it.
Like the shard shop update, like the lvl cap increase when none wanted it, like the gear change update...
Sure they are deciding the best course of action... Maybe another trailer of just a door opening, for the update that will arrive in two months. A lot of sheep will start apologising and thanking devs once again, if they did that.
I will not agree with you 100% though specially to the part of looting in other MMO games. Always in any organized guild (I was in one playing World Of warcraft for a long time) players that contributed more to the guild looted better. I must say here that everyone had their chance to the loot but in general if you were more active , better player , less @#$hole you were getting the loot you wanted before someone else , and eventually the others could get the loot after the above players were geared.
Saying this looting in a raid must have a distiction between players , you cannot leave everything in luck although the gear boxes that we will get from the raid may contain a very good gear but with less chances that if you got a higher lvl box.
I agree that dps is not optimal into categorize contribution to the raid , but you cannot equalize 50 players ( the one that made almost 5 perfect attempts , reading all the data of the boss and the raid , calculating 5 optimal teams and eventually play very well their abilities , with someone that forgot to log in one day and simply was added to a guild for fun and for some loot , why not ....
This is my opinion , always in good thinking that we all contribute to have a better game at the end and not simply arguing to each other
p.s. very well written post , you made me remember of the good old warcraft days
Remove the leaderboards, reward all guild members with the chance to gain good loot.
How can you ask someone to invest time and money all week long for your guild, only for them to finish 50th on some ridiculous leaderboard and receive a pathetic reward for all their efforts.
+1 mate
Futhermore I think there is a difference between CG and EA. CG is a game studio and EA is a soulless money making machine owned by gray faced penny pinchers. EA's directives overrule everyone involved, especially creative and good hearted EA employees. I feel pity for these. Even if they are doing a fine job, they just can't tell a chick in a bar "Well, I work at EA!" without getting Pina Colada all over their face and the bouncers grabbing them by the neck. They have to lie to their own spouses about who their employer is and if their grandparents would ever get wind of it, surely it would be their last breath. *ramble, ramble, ramble...*
all these +1's must be adding up to some sort of change
However, i think adding a toggle option for each called raid where you can have competitive (with loot like i say above, not the massive gap currently between first and last) or equal (where everyone gets the same). That way each guild gets to choose the loot type.
The OP happens to be a grand whale. He spent so much money for this game already. Something tells me that if some new (Han Solo), overpowered heroes get added, he is gonna spend some more. If he doesn't have Sun Fac already... If he had the ability to stop spending now, he wouldn't have spend that much in the first place. Big companies (including EA) even consult psychologists in order to make people susceptible to spending more. Maybe EA doesn't know to make good games, but in making money they are second to none.
Nice read, I hope they read it as well.
P.S. Please do not quote the OP, for it makes it difficult to navigate through this post
My issue is not some degree of differentiation for the raid rewards, it's the HUGE disparity between the top and bottom. It also feeds the "rich get richer" problem. I'm fine with giving the top contributors a little extra - but even the difference between 1st and even 11th is far too wide - over twice as much of the "good stuff" (i.e. shards & gear chances). Obviously the over 10 times as much for the top producer as compared to the bottom 10 is crazy.
Over time, this payout system will only make the difference between the more powerful players in the guild and the lesser ones worse - only pushing the entire disparity issue further.
The scaling on the rewards system needs to be evened out so as to allow the big contributors a bonus, but not one that is so large that it creates animosity and actually worsens the disparity of power within in the guild. The way to achieve balance and team work within a guild is NOT to make the powerful significantly more so, while at the same time, making sure the less powerful players stay that way. That's backwards.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
We have already seen 2 people leave due to internal stress because of this built-in internal over-the-top competition!
Just adding my +1.
I don't need to say anything more as its all already been stated.