Initially i planned to as a backup guild for our main, then quickly realised it was an exploit so abandoned the idea. Still looking at it now It's tempting to take the whole guild on a 4 day raiding vacation considering it's apparently still acceptable practice.
If your guild is willing to wait the 48 hours it's definitely doable and there isn't any action that the devs can take against you
All that has mysteriously been alluded to is that there was an exploit, accomplished during the act of guild hopping that was allowing for some type of gain. It's alluded to that guild hopping is not an exploit, and going from previous official posts, guild hopping for the sake of winning more raids and thus more rewards, also is not an exploit.
It's alluded to that guild hopping is not an exploit...
I'm sorry, but where exactly does the current message allude to that?
I get that you're firmly in favour of guild hopping and alt farming. But I haven't seen anyone describe what exploits this change might be fixing (and if it does fix them, it shouldn't be against the ToS to describe those no-longer-functional exploits), and I think that most people reading the text I quoted in my initial post would think that guild hopping and alt farming is the problem they are looking to eliminate.
If your guild is willing to wait the 48 hours it's definitely doable and there isn't any action that the devs can take against you
Well, those using other exploits (like the Vader exploit) probably thought the same thing. I agree that it's very unlikely they will do anything, but if they wanted to they probably could.
It's alluded to that guild hopping is not an exploit...
I'm sorry, but where exactly does the current message allude to that?
I get that you're firmly in favour of guild hopping and alt farming. But I haven't seen anyone describe what exploits this change might be fixing (and if it does fix them, it shouldn't be against the ToS to describe those no-longer-functional exploits), and I think that most people reading the text I quoted in my initial post would think that guild hopping and alt farming is the problem they are looking to eliminate.
If your guild is willing to wait the 48 hours it's definitely doable and there isn't any action that the devs can take against you
Well, those using other exploits (like the Vader exploit) probably thought the same thing. I agree that it's very unlikely they will do anything, but if they wanted to they probably could.
Except guild hopping never was and still isn't an exploit. Also, no matter how many times you compare it to Vader, it's not going to be an exploit.
No one is going to get punished for doing it in the past, or for doing it moving forward. Live with it.
Except guild hopping never was and still isn't an exploit. Also, no matter how many times you compare it to Vader, it's not going to be an exploit.
No one is going to get punished for doing it in the past, or for doing it moving forward. Live with it.
And no matter how many times you simply assert that it is not officially considered an exploit, that doesn't mean that your assertion is true. So far, nobody has made any suggestion as to what this "known exploit" could be, other than alt farming. If you have an idea what it is, feel free to chime in.
And maybe you don't understand, but I'm not saying that it is an exploit simply because Vader was an exploit. I'm saying that the earlier argument that it can't be an exploit because all players can do it is also an argument that also applied to the Vader situation, and that the Vader response proves that they can take action against this exploit if they want to.
Except guild hopping never was and still isn't an exploit. Also, no matter how many times you compare it to Vader, it's not going to be an exploit.
No one is going to get punished for doing it in the past, or for doing it moving forward. Live with it.
And no matter how many times you simply assert that it is not officially considered an exploit, that doesn't mean that your assertion is true. So far, nobody has made any suggestion as to what this "known exploit" could be, other than alt farming. If you have an idea what it is, feel free to chime in.
And maybe you don't understand, but I'm not saying that it is an exploit simply because Vader was an exploit. I'm saying that the earlier argument that it can't be an exploit because all players can do it is also an argument that also applied to the Vader situation, and that the Vader response proves that they can take action against this exploit if they want to.
Again, no matter how many times you say exploit, guild hopping never was and never will be an exploit. And you were clearly equating the two by using the words "other exploits like Vader." There are no parallels to be drawn since one is an exploit and the other is totally fine.
As to what this mystery exploit is in relation to people switching guilds, I have no idea. I vaguely recall one of the devs saying something in an earlier post a while ago about gaining raid rewards without effort but no additional information has been made available. I'm simply going to assume it's been fixed. And no matter how many times you or anyone else asks about it, the devs will not tell you because it is not their policy to detail exploits that have otherwise not been publicly revealed.
Again, no matter how many times you say exploit, guild hopping never was and never will be an exploit.
So let me get this straight: guild hopping is associated with a known exploit, this thread is full of people who guild hop and alt farm all the time, none of whom knows of any other exploit associated with guild hopping, yet you can somehow say with 100% certainty that the known exploit they are referring to is not alt farming? Sounds legit.
And you were clearly equating the two by using the words "other exploits like Vader." There are no parallels to be drawn since one is an exploit and the other is totally fine.
Again, the only evidence that they're fine is that you say they're fine. If you can say they're fine, I can say "other exploits," especially since talking about other exploits doesn't necessarily mean that this is an exploit: comparing two things is different than saying they're equal.
And yes, there are parallels to be drawn because both the Vader exploit and alt farming can be done by anyone. When somebody's argument that this isn't an exploit because it can be done by anyone, that is a valid comparison to make.
They know... They knew, but it was at dev discretion and dev said exploit it while it's there. Exploiters gonna exploit if dev says it's ok. Like the guys claiming multiple rewards the other day. Dev said collect, so they did.
Again, no matter how many times you say exploit, guild hopping never was and never will be an exploit.
So let me get this straight: guild hopping is associated with a known exploit, this thread is full of people who guild hop and alt farm all the time, none of whom knows of any other exploit associated with guild hopping, yet you can somehow say with 100% certainty that the known exploit they are referring to is not alt farming? Sounds legit.
And you were clearly equating the two by using the words "other exploits like Vader." There are no parallels to be drawn since one is an exploit and the other is totally fine.
Again, the only evidence that they're fine is that you say they're fine. If you can say they're fine, I can say "other exploits," especially since talking about other exploits doesn't necessarily mean that this is an exploit: comparing two things is different than saying they're equal.
And yes, there are parallels to be drawn because both the Vader exploit and alt farming can be done by anyone. When somebody's argument that this isn't an exploit because it can be done by anyone, that is a valid comparison to make.
Yes i am confident because alt farming was never an exploit either and if anything - the latest update more or less killed mercs but left the door wide open for alt farming and other forms of guild collectives and organized hopping - all of which are not exploits.
And your parallel is that they can both be done by anyone and hence both can be exploits? Of all the weak arguments trying to compare hopping to Vader, this is by far the weakest. How does it matter how many people can do it? An exploit like Vader is an exploit and guild hopping and alt farming are not.
"To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate some known exploits associated with Guild Switching, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild."
They use the word "incentivize," to hopefully get us to stop hopping. It would have been simple to just say that hopping for extra raids was now a bannable offense, but they didnt. The goal was to look like they addressed the issue, since it was a sore point for many players, but still leave a way to do it if you're willing to set it up properly.
A better incentive would be to give people who stay in a guild a weekly guild bonus greater than the amount people can get from guild hopping. I.E double guild coins if you stay in your guild longer than a week.
They could apply this to players retroactively to offset the massive advantage people have gained.
Why have half the people in this thread been banned?
The known exploit had something to do with generating extra coins for your guild, to surpass 30k/day. They were never against alt farming, using your alt to earn coins in another guild, and then using your main to raid thst guild.
They limited coin collection to 30,000 coins per guild, per day in a previous update. So that can't be the exploit they're talking about here.
Yes i am confident because alt farming was never an exploit either and if anything - the latest update more or less killed mercs but left the door wide open for alt farming and other forms of guild collectives and organized hopping - all of which are not exploits.
Something not being described as an exploit in the past (though it was described as unintended and "pushing the boundaries and the intentions") doesn't mean it's no longer considered an exploit. It is clear that they want to reduce, if not eliminate, guild movement.
And your parallel is that they can both be done by anyone and hence both can be exploits? Of all the weak arguments trying to compare hopping to Vader, this is by far the weakest. How does it matter how many people can do it? An exploit like Vader is an exploit and guild hopping and alt farming are not.
Maybe you should actually read the comments in this thread, or even read the comments you're responding to? As I said, someone used the "anyone can do it" argument as for why this is not an exploit. Sure, it's a weak argument, and the Vader exploit shows it's a weak argument.
A better incentive would be to give people who stay in a guild a weekly guild bonus greater than the amount people can get from guild hopping. I.E double guild coins if you stay in your guild longer than a week.
They could apply this to players retroactively to offset the massive advantage people have gained.
Or they could do things like restrict how many guild changes you can have in a week or month, or even better, restrict how many times you can join the same guild: leave a guild twice and you can never rejoin it. I suppose it's cheap enough to create a guild that this wouldn't be a major obstacle, though. Maybe have a guild-change cooldown period that increases every time you hop.
They are deterents not to guild hop, not Incentives. An incentive suggests one is BETTER than the other. Or that there is a reward for doing one thing over another. There is still an incentive to exploit guilds for double rewards.
You really don't get it do you? The only exploit was claiming rewards multiple times. That was an exploit. Hopping never was and still isn't. They didn't restrict it to appease anyone. They didn't restrict it to correct a "wrong" or a mistake. They simply implemented this change to create another paywall for FTP players and choke their progression. That's it! All my hopping has me NOWHERE in terms of arena strength. I have a bigger roster and more leveled due to credit gain but they don't care about that. They care that I was helping FTP players advance beyond a gear wall they may not have been able to accomplish themselves. Certainly. It anywhere close to the same timeframe anyways. Your arguments and Insistance that hopping was an exploit is incredibly naive.
Hopping never was and still isn't. They didn't restrict it to appease anyone. They didn't restrict it to correct a "wrong" or a mistake. They simply implemented this change to create another paywall for FTP players and choke their progression. That's it! All my hopping has me NOWHERE in terms of arena strength. I have a bigger roster and more leveled due to credit gain but they don't care about that. They care that I was helping FTP players advance beyond a gear wall they may not have been able to accomplish themselves. Certainly. It anywhere close to the same timeframe anyways. Your arguments and Insistance that hopping was an exploit is incredibly naive.
You seem to be a mercenary, and not an alt farmer, if I understand correctly. Alt farmers also obtain gear, and as such can help their arena rankings and arena squads.
You may be right that they don't like mercenaries helping others get over the gear hump. But despite that, they're still talking about a "known exploit" associated with guild hopping. If you want to say that they're simply lying about this, then that's fine: just say it.
You really don't get it do you? The only exploit was claiming rewards multiple times. That was an exploit. Hopping never was and still isn't. They didn't restrict it to appease anyone. They didn't restrict it to correct a "wrong" or a mistake. They simply implemented this change to create another paywall for FTP players and choke their progression. That's it! All my hopping has me NOWHERE in terms of arena strength. I have a bigger roster and more leveled due to credit gain but they don't care about that. They care that I was helping FTP players advance beyond a gear wall they may not have been able to accomplish themselves. Certainly. It anywhere close to the same timeframe anyways. Your arguments and Insistance that hopping was an exploit is incredibly naive.
Then why have any hard caps on guild coins? Why state specifically when they launched guilds that they didn't want it to happen? Why twice Since launch have the devs said they wan't to discourage it? Why are they putting more restrictions in place?
Surely if they didn't want that 1 heroic every two days cap, they would just remove all caps on guild currency. It's a game mechanic exploit, it is abuse of the feature. There is also specific mention in the ToS of working round in game progression barriers such as hard caps.
Alright I'm going to hop into this discussion (no pun intended) as a Guild Hopper/Merc. I started doing this around a month ago and am a ftp player. I do not have the best roster and would rank 30 in raids with my top 100 guild. A guy from the guild joined after hopping and I was inspired, I got him to teach me and get back into hopping. We would help up to 2 guilds a day (upwards of 5 raids in those guilds) and would always use up our guild timer and would be at its mercy. Do not get me wrong Guild Hopping was not as easy as one would assume, you had to find guilds ready to do a T7 raid then you had to get together a group of fellow hoppers. I ended up making a core group of 4 with 5 peripheral players. Looking back I started this to get more gear. I continued hopping because I loved raids and was able to meet and help people out. Now I have been forced into retirement and am now a "hermit grand master hopper." I do not believe that hopping was an exploit as it was allowed by the devs, however I do know that there were ways to exploit raids by hopping (which I did not do) and I assume this is why they cited known exploits. I am disappointed that this happened but believed that for the effort us mercs put in (I would be on the forums and reddit and pm people 24/7 and raids would require immense planning) we deserved to hop or at the very least get reduced rewards. I do not agree with their decision on a 48 hour cool down for rewards but respect the decision and will play the game in a home guild now as a result.
2 raids a day. Sounds fun. Shame the rest of the community don't have that capability by remaining in 1 guild because if we did, you would still be able to play the game how you liked.
I've been contacted by 6 clients in the last 12 hours for merc help and can't go. Because now it will hurt me instead of help. But here's the rub George-I would GLADLY go for free! No rewards whatsoever IF I wasn't penalized (48 hour cooldown). The devs could have given us a guild designation or maybe 2. Only can receive awards from these 2 guilds-period. Allows the alt farm which is still allowed and viable. But also allows me to merc. No additional rewards though. But again, that's not what this change was about. They simply don't want weaker players and FTP players advancing without payment.
It's the devs fault that it took this long to implement a change that should have gone in the moment these issues surfaced.
This. And they spent almost a week saying how "cool and helpful" guild hoppers were. I also think there was a great deal of pressure from certain high-paying guilds to continue to keep guild hopping (i.e. "alt farming") legit or at least delay it's restriction until such time as those "utilizing" it (exploiting it?) had built a significant enough advantage - not to mention the fact that the "big" Han Solo unlock was done via guild hopping.
So the devs pretty much wet the bed with the guild hopping loop holes, then refused to close them - instead trying to make it sound like it was intended all along. Finally, closing the doors - long after the damage had been done and the advantages for the high paying and high profile hoppers and alt farmers were well accomplished.
Most people realize that mistakes can be made. The issue wasn't the loophole mistakes. The frustration and disbelief is the clear lack of accountability and the length of time taken to correct it.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
It's the devs fault that it took this long to implement a change that should have gone in the moment these issues surfaced.
This. And they spent almost a week saying how "cool and helpful" guild hoppers were. I also think there was a great deal of pressure from certain high-paying guilds to continue to keep guild hopping (i.e. "alt farming") legit or at least delay it's restriction until such time as those "utilizing" it (exploiting it?) had built a significant enough advantage - not to mention the fact that the "big" Han Solo unlock was done via guild hopping.
So the devs pretty much wet the bed with the guild hopping loop holes, then refused to close them - instead trying to make it sound like it was intended all along. Finally, closing the doors - long after the damage had been done and the advantages for the high paying and high profile hoppers and alt farmers were well accomplished.
Most people realize that mistakes can be made. The issue wasn't the loophole mistakes. The frustration and disbelief is the clear lack of accountability and the length of time taken to correct it.
I agree with you, if they were up front with us about everything I would have felt differently. I did suspect that eventually guild hopping would end but not like this. I hate having to tell all the guilds that I planned to help with T7 raids in the next 2 weeks that I and my group won't make it due to this. I had over 8 guilds planned and now they will have to wait another 2-4 weeks till they can attempt this which sucks for both parties.
The known exploit had something to do with generating extra coins for your guild, to surpass 30k/day. They were never against alt farming, using your alt to earn coins in another guild, and then using your main to raid thst guild.
They limited coin collection to 30,000 coins per guild, per day in a previous update. So that can't be the exploit they're talking about here.
Yes i am confident because alt farming was never an exploit either and if anything - the latest update more or less killed mercs but left the door wide open for alt farming and other forms of guild collectives and organized hopping - all of which are not exploits.
Something not being described as an exploit in the past (though it was described as unintended and "pushing the boundaries and the intentions") doesn't mean it's no longer considered an exploit. It is clear that they want to reduce, if not eliminate, guild movement.
And your parallel is that they can both be done by anyone and hence both can be exploits? Of all the weak arguments trying to compare hopping to Vader, this is by far the weakest. How does it matter how many people can do it? An exploit like Vader is an exploit and guild hopping and alt farming are not.
Maybe you should actually read the comments in this thread, or even read the comments you're responding to? As I said, someone used the "anyone can do it" argument as for why this is not an exploit. Sure, it's a weak argument, and the Vader exploit shows it's a weak argument.
I did read the comments. The issue is that you've convinced yourself that hopping/alt farming is an exploit and see everything from that perspective.
If your guild is willing to wait the 48 hours it's definitely doable and there isn't any action that the devs can take against you
Where does he mention anything about exploits? I see him saying that the completely legit practice of hopping is still viable if you can wait. And he rightfully points out that no action will be taken because there's no exploit here.
I've been contacted by 6 clients in the last 12 hours for merc help and can't go. Because now it will hurt me instead of help. But here's the rub George-I would GLADLY go for free! No rewards whatsoever IF I wasn't penalized (48 hour cooldown). The devs could have given us a guild designation or maybe 2. Only can receive awards from these 2 guilds-period. Allows the alt farm which is still allowed and viable. But also allows me to merc. No additional rewards though. But again, that's not what this change was about. They simply don't want weaker players and FTP players advancing without payment.
Considering you've been on 4x rewards for however long at these guys expense, i feel it's only fair to continue to help them until the debt is repaid. But your wages have been higher than a regular spot for some time so you probably don't see it that way.
Replies
It's the devs fault that it took this long to implement a change that should have gone in the moment these issues surfaced.
If your guild is willing to wait the 48 hours it's definitely doable and there isn't any action that the devs can take against you
Make Zader Great Again!
I get that you're firmly in favour of guild hopping and alt farming. But I haven't seen anyone describe what exploits this change might be fixing (and if it does fix them, it shouldn't be against the ToS to describe those no-longer-functional exploits), and I think that most people reading the text I quoted in my initial post would think that guild hopping and alt farming is the problem they are looking to eliminate.
Well, those using other exploits (like the Vader exploit) probably thought the same thing. I agree that it's very unlikely they will do anything, but if they wanted to they probably could.
"Might be"? Are known exploits or no?
And alt farming??
Except guild hopping never was and still isn't an exploit. Also, no matter how many times you compare it to Vader, it's not going to be an exploit.
No one is going to get punished for doing it in the past, or for doing it moving forward. Live with it.
And maybe you don't understand, but I'm not saying that it is an exploit simply because Vader was an exploit. I'm saying that the earlier argument that it can't be an exploit because all players can do it is also an argument that also applied to the Vader situation, and that the Vader response proves that they can take action against this exploit if they want to.
Again, no matter how many times you say exploit, guild hopping never was and never will be an exploit. And you were clearly equating the two by using the words "other exploits like Vader." There are no parallels to be drawn since one is an exploit and the other is totally fine.
As to what this mystery exploit is in relation to people switching guilds, I have no idea. I vaguely recall one of the devs saying something in an earlier post a while ago about gaining raid rewards without effort but no additional information has been made available. I'm simply going to assume it's been fixed. And no matter how many times you or anyone else asks about it, the devs will not tell you because it is not their policy to detail exploits that have otherwise not been publicly revealed.
So let me get this straight: guild hopping is associated with a known exploit, this thread is full of people who guild hop and alt farm all the time, none of whom knows of any other exploit associated with guild hopping, yet you can somehow say with 100% certainty that the known exploit they are referring to is not alt farming? Sounds legit.
Again, the only evidence that they're fine is that you say they're fine. If you can say they're fine, I can say "other exploits," especially since talking about other exploits doesn't necessarily mean that this is an exploit: comparing two things is different than saying they're equal.
And yes, there are parallels to be drawn because both the Vader exploit and alt farming can be done by anyone. When somebody's argument that this isn't an exploit because it can be done by anyone, that is a valid comparison to make.
Yes i am confident because alt farming was never an exploit either and if anything - the latest update more or less killed mercs but left the door wide open for alt farming and other forms of guild collectives and organized hopping - all of which are not exploits.
And your parallel is that they can both be done by anyone and hence both can be exploits? Of all the weak arguments trying to compare hopping to Vader, this is by far the weakest. How does it matter how many people can do it? An exploit like Vader is an exploit and guild hopping and alt farming are not.
A better incentive would be to give people who stay in a guild a weekly guild bonus greater than the amount people can get from guild hopping. I.E double guild coins if you stay in your guild longer than a week.
They could apply this to players retroactively to offset the massive advantage people have gained.
Why have half the people in this thread been banned?
Something not being described as an exploit in the past (though it was described as unintended and "pushing the boundaries and the intentions") doesn't mean it's no longer considered an exploit. It is clear that they want to reduce, if not eliminate, guild movement.
Maybe you should actually read the comments in this thread, or even read the comments you're responding to? As I said, someone used the "anyone can do it" argument as for why this is not an exploit. Sure, it's a weak argument, and the Vader exploit shows it's a weak argument.
You seem to be a mercenary, and not an alt farmer, if I understand correctly. Alt farmers also obtain gear, and as such can help their arena rankings and arena squads.
You may be right that they don't like mercenaries helping others get over the gear hump. But despite that, they're still talking about a "known exploit" associated with guild hopping. If you want to say that they're simply lying about this, then that's fine: just say it.
Then why have any hard caps on guild coins? Why state specifically when they launched guilds that they didn't want it to happen? Why twice Since launch have the devs said they wan't to discourage it? Why are they putting more restrictions in place?
Surely if they didn't want that 1 heroic every two days cap, they would just remove all caps on guild currency. It's a game mechanic exploit, it is abuse of the feature. There is also specific mention in the ToS of working round in game progression barriers such as hard caps.
EDIT: Spelling
This. And they spent almost a week saying how "cool and helpful" guild hoppers were. I also think there was a great deal of pressure from certain high-paying guilds to continue to keep guild hopping (i.e. "alt farming") legit or at least delay it's restriction until such time as those "utilizing" it (exploiting it?) had built a significant enough advantage - not to mention the fact that the "big" Han Solo unlock was done via guild hopping.
So the devs pretty much wet the bed with the guild hopping loop holes, then refused to close them - instead trying to make it sound like it was intended all along. Finally, closing the doors - long after the damage had been done and the advantages for the high paying and high profile hoppers and alt farmers were well accomplished.
Most people realize that mistakes can be made. The issue wasn't the loophole mistakes. The frustration and disbelief is the clear lack of accountability and the length of time taken to correct it.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I did read the comments. The issue is that you've convinced yourself that hopping/alt farming is an exploit and see everything from that perspective.
Where does he mention anything about exploits? I see him saying that the completely legit practice of hopping is still viable if you can wait. And he rightfully points out that no action will be taken because there's no exploit here.
Considering you've been on 4x rewards for however long at these guys expense, i feel it's only fair to continue to help them until the debt is repaid. But your wages have been higher than a regular spot for some time so you probably don't see it that way.