Part of @EA_Jesse's patch notes includes the following:
To incentivize players to remain in one guild and mitigate some known exploits associated with Guild Switching, there is now a 48 hour cooldown period where a player will not receive Raid rewards for a Raid completed within 48 hours of leaving the previous Guild.
So, guild hopping and alt farming has been officially described as a "known exploit." We all know that EA has punished exploiters in the past, as is currently suspending players who collected multiple raid rewards (even after those players received confirmation they could collect multiple raid rewards).
Yet we also know that guild hoppers have never been punished, and that they plan to continue to guild hop and complete 6 or more raids per week. And while they claim that they received confirmation from the devs that guild hopping was OK, we know that receiving confirmation is not preventing the current round of suspensions. So my question is whether those who continue to guild hop and alt farm will be punished for taking advantage of this "known exploit."
There's no claim, there are 2 official posts regarding it in the updates section:
Since it's obvious you don't take the time to research I'll give you some quotes from it.
It has come to my attention that there may be some unintended behaviour with guild hopping--a potential bug or the likes--that may cause players to get unearned rewards.
Let me state this very clearly: We are researching this. If you are caught abusing this, you will be banned.
We are fine with guild hopping right now, but we are not fine with exploiting the rewards structure for little-to-no work.
Now in case you're unfamilar with the english languange, "We are fine with" means it's ok, acceptable, not an exploit, etc.
Did you get that part or did you need pictures?
First off there is no exploit. There is nothing wrong with a player switching guilds, nor is there anything wrong with a main guild having a back-up guild. These things are neither fundamentally wrong, nor are they wrong in the spirit of multiplayer games.
I must stress, there is nothing wrong with guild hopping.
Did you follow that part or should I break it down some more? Not sure how much clearer n-o-t-h-i-n-g w-r-o-n-g can be made but I'll try.
There is nothing wrong with working within the constructs of a system to beat content.
Nobody is doing anything wrong here, and if anyone was cheating or exploiting, we would have taken action. Everything that these guilds are doing, any individual in the game can do.
This is the nature of multiplayer games, folks. Some people are always going to be pushing the boundaries and the intentions. Some will always strive to be ahead, and some will always find ways to win. So long as they do this in a legal way, we have no intent on hindering that. This is the reality of gaming.
Got it now? It wasn't a shady backroom deal. A CG dev posted here on the official forums making these statements.
Now all of a sudden they want to call it an exploit because some people are **** that they couldn't or wouldn't exert that level of effort and cried for it to end.
This post is sheer awesomeness.
Do you think it's what got him banned? I liked his "why is everyone surprised" thread. Completely agree with what he said. He should of used the dog in his "NRAJ said do it" appreciation post.
Still doesn't change the fact that NRAJ was wrong and this statement led to outrage across the community, it completely destroyed the integrity of the competitive aspects of the game and gave the go ahead for people to buy as many raid rewards as they want.
The outrage was compounded by the ridiculous amount of crystals they were asking for in game to players who didn't take advantage of guild hopping and alt farming.
i honestly dont get why you are still trying to convince people it is an exploit. I get all the reasons why it should be an exploit, but like i said; only the devs determine if something is an exploit. Whats next? banning people (like myself) who used QGJ basic on Rey's forsight for TM reduction even though it got dodged?
I'm not trying to convince anyone, It was a big deal, It still is. All those people paying 1400 crystals when they can set up an alt account and pay 100 for the same piece of gear along with a load of credits, guild currency and han shards.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
i honestly dont get why you are still trying to convince people it is an exploit. I get all the reasons why it should be an exploit, but like i said; only the devs determine if something is an exploit. Whats next? banning people (like myself) who used QGJ basic on Rey's forsight for TM reduction even though it got dodged?
I honestly don't get what the known exploit could be, if not guild hopping and alt farming. What is this mysterious exploit?
What's next? Banning people who took advantage of the game mechanics to get lots of Vader shards, or claim multiple raid rewards?
I'm not trying to convince anyone, It was a big deal, It still is. All those people paying 1400 crystals when they can set up an alt account and pay 100 for the same piece of gear along with a load of credits, guild currency and han shards.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
i honestly dont get why you are still trying to convince people it is an exploit. I get all the reasons why it should be an exploit, but like i said; only the devs determine if something is an exploit. Whats next? banning people (like myself) who used QGJ basic on Rey's forsight for TM reduction even though it got dodged?
I honestly don't get what the known exploit could be, if not guild hopping and alt farming. What is this mysterious exploit?
What's next? Banning people who took advantage of the game mechanics to get lots of Vader shards, or claim multiple raid rewards?
In conclusion - you still don't know what the exploit is and probably never will.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, It was a big deal, It still is. All those people paying 1400 crystals when they can set up an alt account and pay 100 for the same piece of gear along with a load of credits, guild currency and han shards.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, It was a big deal, It still is. All those people paying 1400 crystals when they can set up an alt account and pay 100 for the same piece of gear along with a load of credits, guild currency and han shards.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
All nonsense
That's interesting, why do you say that?
You'll figure it out eventually.. Maybe if you try expanding on how one person spending 100 crystals (or is it 50) gets all this extra stuff. Basic logic and simple math is all you need.
In conclusion - you still don't know what the exploit is and probably never will.
The real question is whether you know what the exploit is. I'm pretty certain he was alluding to alt farming.
Do you actually think you're contributing anything to this thread by just stating your conclusions and not providing any logic, analysis, or reasoning?
I'm not trying to convince anyone, It was a big deal, It still is. All those people paying 1400 crystals when they can set up an alt account and pay 100 for the same piece of gear along with a load of credits, guild currency and han shards.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
All nonsense
That's interesting, why do you say that?
You'll figure it out eventually.. Maybe if you try expanding on how one person spending 100 crystals (or is it 50) gets all this extra stuff. Basic logic and simple math is all you need.
You have stated nothing that would allow me or anyone else to come to the conclusion that anything I stated was nonsense. Therefore I can only logically conclude that it is not true.
In conclusion - you still don't know what the exploit is and probably never will.
The real question is whether you know what the exploit is. I'm pretty certain he was alluding to alt farming.
Do you actually think you're contributing anything to this thread by just stating your conclusions and not providing any logic, analysis, or reasoning?
Already answered your real question many posts ago - I don't know what the exploit is.
And in case you haven't figured it out in all these posts, I do not have to present any logic analysis or reasoning to state a fact. A fact is a fact. Like the world is round - fact. Hopping is legit - fact. Alt farming is legit - fact.
I don't have to build a case for what I say because it is a fact. You've tried and failed at disproving this fact. You've started with a conclusion which is nothing but your opinion that hopping or alt farming is an exploit and built a logically flawed case to support it. You have no evidence that no other exploit exists, so you simply assume it does not exist. From that basis, which is already weak, you infer your conclusion that alt farming must be the exploit. Your base assumption is false, and therefore anything you infer from it is also false.
As far as contribution to this thread goes - I'm satisfied with my contribution since my purpose is to ensure that people that read this thread don't get carried away with your flawed logic and support your flawed conclusion.
I actually proved it was an exploit. And you couldn't refute it other than to say it is legit. Scruffy is asking a different question, "what if not guild hopping/alt farming are they talking about?" There is no doubt that it is abusing an undocumented feature to gain advantage, that it is not available through normal gameplay, and that it is achieved by exploiting the game mechanics and problems with the game design. Hence against ToS and an exploit. That is my perspective and I believe the ToS are clear on this. Until I get an in game popup saying "here is the new guild hopping feature which allows you to get double raid rewards" and there is an in game tutorial of how to use it, it remains a game mechanic exploit in my eyes. Not a bug exploit, a game mechanic exploit.
I actually proved it was an exploit. And you couldn't refute it other than to say it is legit. Scruffy is asking a different question, "what if not guild hopping/alt farming are they talking about?" There is no doubt that it is abusing an undocumented feature to gain advantage, that it is not available through normal gameplay, and that it is achieved by exploiting the game mechanics and problems with the game design. Hence against ToS and an exploit. That is my perspective and I believe the ToS are clear on this. Until I get an in game popup saying "here is the new guild hopping feature which allows you to get double raid rewards" and there is an in game tutorial of how to use it, it remains a game mechanic exploit in my eyes. Not a bug exploit, a game mechanic exploit.
A string of weak assumptions mixed with opinions and selective interpretation of the ToS and therefore a false conclusion. You haven't proved a thing to me.
I actually proved it was an exploit. And you couldn't refute it other than to say it is legit. Scruffy is asking a different question, "what if not guild hopping/alt farming are they talking about?" There is no doubt that it is abusing an undocumented feature to gain advantage, that it is not available through normal gameplay, and that it is achieved by exploiting the game mechanics and problems with the game design. Hence against ToS and an exploit. That is my perspective and I believe the ToS are clear on this. Until I get an in game popup saying "here is the new guild hopping feature which allows you to get double raid rewards" and there is an in game tutorial of how to use it, it remains a game mechanic exploit in my eyes. Not a bug exploit, a game mechanic exploit.
A string of weak assumptions mixed with opinions and selective interpretation of the ToS and therefore a false conclusion. You haven't proved a thing to me.
What would it take to prove this is an exploit to you?
The only facts I need to prove it are that it isn't an ingame feature, it is exploitable to exceed in game caps, it requires the use of a dummy account and reduces the cost to obtain gear and credits drastically whilst reducing the farm time for raid specific characters. The devs said it was never intended to be used like that, i.e a design flaw. Alt factory is a totally different thing and one would hope if a guild somehow managed to exceed 30k guild coins per day they would report it as a bug. That didn't happen yet offenders recieved no ban or punishment for exploiting that.
Lastly when people compare this to wow, just remember this, Alts are available in game to all as a feature in wow.
It's an exploit which shouldn't have been allowed in the first place and when it did it should have been made the utmost priority to be patched in the following days. But we know what happened, devs granted the -go- signal until they changed the rules. Damage happened. There is not much to talk.
Your claim for punishment obviously won't and shouldn't happen, it wasn't the players fault (just like nothing happened to precrafters). If you haven't adapted to the current and still ask everything to be rolled back to your imaginary how a player should play paradigm, that's on you.
And in case you haven't figured it out in all these posts, I do not have to present any logic analysis or reasoning to state a fact. A fact is a fact. Like the world is round - fact. Hopping is legit - fact. Alt farming is legit - fact.
In conclusion - you still have nothing to contribute to this thread and probably never will, as you refuse to state on what basis you conclude this to be a fact. Indeed, while you say that I have insufficient proof for my "flawed assumption," you present no evidence, logic, or reasoning to support your flawed assumption, which is identical to your conclusion that hopping is legit. In other words, while it is possible—and easy—to prove that the world is round, you can't seem to prove your 'fact'.
It's an exploit which shouldn't have been allowed in the first place and when it did it should have been made the utmost priority to be patched in the following days. But we know what happened, devs granted the -go- signal until they changed the rules. Damage happened. There is not much to talk.
Your claim for punishment obviously won't and shouldn't happen, it wasn't the players fault (just like nothing happened to precrafters). If you haven't adapted to the current and still ask everything to be rolled back to your imaginary how a player should play paradigm, that's on you.
The difference being that pre-crafting was never officially called an exploit. If this is the known exploit, and given that exploits are against the ToS, then punishment for continuing to use the exploit would be appropriate given the official stance on it.
How can u compare 7* vader bug with guild hopping/mercing?
Thats 2 totally different things!
Vader shards was reclaiming a specific achievment over and over << exploit
Guild hopping is a practice where you put extra "work" in to gain something extra using a game mechanic! << Not an exploit
Was this "loophole" intended to begin with? Doubt it! But it was there, worked for a few months and is still working! Devs just made it more complicated
Just because you dont want to hop around and you claiming its an exploit doesnt make it so! You being annoyed that others could get more rewards than you does not justify punishing/banning anyone...
The reason they want to eliminate guild hopping is to further slow down progress of the playerbase and make more money in the process with the frustration they created!
If devs really see guild hopping as an exploit, why not fix it properly? Why just create extra hoops to jump through?
And OP lets see if we can come up with a real life example of your crying for ban/punishment...
2 guys grow up next to each other. When they become adults, 1 of them works hard and steps up the ladder, has a nicer house, a better car etc. The other one is still working at the burgerjoint and has a mouldy house and a rustbucket of a car...
The burgerjoint guy now gets annoyed/angry/envious of the "rich" guy and wants both of them to be equals so he has now 2 options:
1. Trying to get where the "rich guy" is or
2. Trying to kick the rich guy down
Option 1 presents a way to do something with your life and get better whild option 2 means crying for the IRS to bust the rich guy and get him busted, even though rich guy got his wealth using legal means...
Whos the bad guy here?
And in case you haven't figured it out in all these posts, I do not have to present any logic analysis or reasoning to state a fact. A fact is a fact. Like the world is round - fact. Hopping is legit - fact. Alt farming is legit - fact.
In conclusion - you still have nothing to contribute to this thread and probably never will, as you refuse to state on what basis you conclude this to be a fact. Indeed, while you say that I have insufficient proof for my "flawed assumption," you present no evidence, logic, or reasoning to support your flawed assumption, which is identical to your conclusion that hopping is legit. In other words, while it is possible—and easy—to prove that the world is round, you can't seem to prove your 'fact'.
It's an exploit which shouldn't have been allowed in the first place and when it did it should have been made the utmost priority to be patched in the following days. But we know what happened, devs granted the -go- signal until they changed the rules. Damage happened. There is not much to talk.
Your claim for punishment obviously won't and shouldn't happen, it wasn't the players fault (just like nothing happened to precrafters). If you haven't adapted to the current and still ask everything to be rolled back to your imaginary how a player should play paradigm, that's on you.
The difference being that pre-crafting was never officially called an exploit. If this is the known exploit, and given that exploits are against the ToS, then punishment for continuing to use the exploit would be appropriate given the official stance on it.
Hopping is never officially called an exploit either. I do agree that it's an exploit, but neither our opinions matter unless the devs decide to call it as such. Even with this update they didn't, neither did they make hopping or alting impossible, just more restrained. And within the new ruleset, I will probably keep on doing well-timed hops.
The choice of words you quoted on the op post makes their desire to not fully set a hard rule, but to -incentivise- clear, does it not?
Let's assume a dev stated -hey, now we thought a bit more about it we saw that guild hopping is indeed an exploit-, even that wouldn't warrant retroactive punishment.
I actually proved it was an exploit. And you couldn't refute it other than to say it is legit. Scruffy is asking a different question, "what if not guild hopping/alt farming are they talking about?" There is no doubt that it is abusing an undocumented feature to gain advantage, that it is not available through normal gameplay, and that it is achieved by exploiting the game mechanics and problems with the game design. Hence against ToS and an exploit. That is my perspective and I believe the ToS are clear on this. Until I get an in game popup saying "here is the new guild hopping feature which allows you to get double raid rewards" and there is an in game tutorial of how to use it, it remains a game mechanic exploit in my eyes. Not a bug exploit, a game mechanic exploit.
A string of weak assumptions mixed with opinions and selective interpretation of the ToS and therefore a false conclusion. You haven't proved a thing to me.
What would it take to prove this is an exploit to you?
The only facts I need to prove it are that it isn't an ingame feature, it is exploitable to exceed in game caps, it requires the use of a dummy account and reduces the cost to obtain gear and credits drastically whilst reducing the farm time for raid specific characters. The devs said it was never intended to be used like that, i.e a design flaw. Alt factory is a totally different thing and one would hope if a guild somehow managed to exceed 30k guild coins per day they would report it as a bug. That didn't happen yet offenders recieved no ban or punishment for exploiting that.
Lastly when people compare this to wow, just remember this, Alts are available in game to all as a feature in wow.
1) Switching guilds is an ingame feature - you can join a new guild x times a day.
2) Raiding in multiple guilds is an in game feature - you can raid and gain rewards in multiple guilds subject to a cooldown period coded into the game. This used to be x, and is now y - just like mod drop rates were 100% and now they are something else.
3) Having an alt is also completely legit. Comparing it to wow is irrelevant. If you were not supposed to roll an alt, it would have been explicitly mentioned or otherwise coded into the game. It is not. What you can and cannot do with an alt is also entirely your opinion, not supported by anything in the game code or instructions provided by those that manage the game.
To summarize - you have a certain interpretation of in game caps and rolling alts - they are all just your opinions and absolutely irrelevant because they does not match with a) how the game is coded and b) any other instructions provided by those that manage the game
When one of the devs spoke about something that was never intended - you interpreted that in whatever way you wanted to suit your conclusion. Unless you are part of the team that manages the game, your interpretation is as irrelevant as your earlier opinions and any conclusions you draw from said interpretation are flawed.
As far as the ToS are concerned - violating GeorgeRules' opinions and interpretation of in game caps is not mentioned anywhere so referring to the ToS is as meaningless as every other part of your arguments.
Your welcome to follow your interpretation of anything in this game, as is anyone else that agrees with your opinion. However, no one is bound by your opinions and interpretations and cannot be punished for violating your interpretation of how the game is to be played in the past, presently or in the future.
Guild hopping isn't an exploit. They've said it's not in the past and in the recent updated update Jesse referred to an exploit related to hopping. Not that hopping was the exp
I actually proved it was an exploit. And you couldn't refute it other than to say it is legit. Scruffy is asking a different question, "what if not guild hopping/alt farming are they talking about?" There is no doubt that it is abusing an undocumented feature to gain advantage, that it is not available through normal gameplay, and that it is achieved by exploiting the game mechanics and problems with the game design. Hence against ToS and an exploit. That is my perspective and I believe the ToS are clear on this. Until I get an in game popup saying "here is the new guild hopping feature which allows you to get double raid rewards" and there is an in game tutorial of how to use it, it remains a game mechanic exploit in my eyes. Not a bug exploit, a game mechanic exploit.
There was a 24 hour rolling timer in place to prevent too many hops already. This documents in the game pretty overtly in game a feature. It also shows the devs had already addressed changing/hopping guilds in their code and put a mechanic in place to keep it in check. Jesse's wording in his update separated hopping and the exploit "an exploit associated with hopping" not that hopping was the exploit. Lastly, the Devs came on the official forums stating it's ok to use this mechanic, even going so far as to congratulate the individual who received the first Han Solo using this game mechanic. I've asked both here and on Reddit what this exploit was and every time my question gets crickets. Finally, can you provide me with a list/website/manual of the documented features of this game please? This is a list of facts, I've drawn my conclusions from it and played the game accordingly. I will also log in to the game much less now. Here's some opinions. The game is much less fun without hopping and the slowing of character progression. I'm also much less inclined to spend money and support a game I don't find fun. Finally, I've never seen a tutorial for the "retreat" button so I'm pretty sure that's an exploit and those using it to complete GW and get better raid rankings should be banned. Clearly exploiting for more rewards than they deserve.
Hopping is never officially called an exploit either.
Yes, but something is being called a "known exploit," and I haven't seen any suggestions as to what this could be other than hopping and alting, and given the context in which this "known exploit" is described, it is implied that alting is the exploit.
How can u compare 7* vader bug with guild hopping/mercing?
Thats 2 totally different things!
Vader shards was reclaiming a specific achievment over and over << exploit
Guild hopping is a practice where you put extra "work" in to gain something extra using a game mechanic!
The Vader exploit also required extra work through the in-game mechanic, to my understanding—it wasn't simply clicking "accept" over and over again like it was with the raid rewards exploit.
But it doesn't really matter, because an exploit is what the devs say it is, and in this case they seem to be calling hopping and alting an exploit.
By the way while you are at it, why not open a topic about mod-pre craft too? We're missing that.
Find me another, earlier, thread that discusses guild hopping and alting in the context of the the latest update saying that a "known exploit" is associated with hopping.
Hopping is never officially called an exploit either.
Yes, but something is being called a "known exploit," and I haven't seen any suggestions as to what this could be other than hopping and alting, and given the context in which this "known exploit" is described, it is implied that alting is the exploit.
Ok, and that exploit is dealt with the way they see fit. First they gave it -good to go- signal on both fronts in very clear terms (how is it possible ignore this key to your argument bit?), then they changed the rules. Your call for a witchhunt is what's redundant here. We are wasting our breath.
It also shows the devs had already addressed changing/hopping guilds in their code and put a mechanic in place to keep it in check.
They can't even fix Teebo despite trying for months. But I suppose by your reasoning Teebo isn't actually bugged, because they've continued to have him function in his current state for some time without addressing him in their code/mechanics.
Jesse's wording in his update separated hopping and the exploit "an exploit associated with hopping" not that hopping was the exploit. Lastly, the Devs came on the official forums stating it's ok to use this mechanic, even going so far as to congratulate the individual who received the first Han Solo using this game mechanic.
I suggest you read the dev comments again. They make no mention of alting, and only refer to "players" sacrificing for the benefit of a guild mate. They don't take about alt accounts controlled by the same playeer sacrificing for primary accounts.
Finally, I've never seen a tutorial for the "retreat" button so I'm pretty sure that's an exploit and those using it to complete GW and get better raid rankings should be banned. Clearly exploiting for more rewards than they deserve.
If you remember, retreating used to be a different mechanic than it is now: your progress to that point would be saved, including the death of your own characters. However, because you could avoid this by force-quitting the app, they changed the mechanic by making retreat act the same way as force quit. This is a documented change. And yes, arguably force quitting was an exploit, but it was never described as such. Furthermore, it isn't possible to track those who gamed the system by force quitting, making it impossible to police. This isn't an obstacle when it comes to alt farming.
Hopping is never officially called an exploit either.
Yes, but something is being called a "known exploit," and I haven't seen any suggestions as to what this could be other than hopping and alting, and given the context in which this "known exploit" is described, it is implied that alting is the exploit.
You have not seen any suggestions is where the facts end.
Hopping and alting are not exploits. Trying to connect the dots to conveniently suit your opinion, no matter how you try does not make hopping or alt farming expoits.
You have not seen any suggestions is where the facts end.
The fact is that there are known exploits associated with hopping. The fact is many people have concluded that alting is the exploit being alluded to. If I shared your mentality I would simply state that the fact is that alting is an exploit, but the fact is I'm not that silly.
And in case you haven't figured it out in all these posts, I do not have to present any logic analysis or reasoning to state a fact. A fact is a fact. Like the world is round - fact. Hopping is legit - fact. Alt farming is legit - fact.
In conclusion - you still have nothing to contribute to this thread and probably never will, as you refuse to state on what basis you conclude this to be a fact. Indeed, while you say that I have insufficient proof for my "flawed assumption," you present no evidence, logic, or reasoning to support your flawed assumption, which is identical to your conclusion that hopping is legit. In other words, while it is possible—and easy—to prove that the world is round, you can't seem to prove your 'fact'.
I don't have to prove facts. I simply have to state them. That's what makes them facts. To disprove said fact, the burden of presenting evidence falls on you. My contribution to this thread is to show that your arguments and assumptions are flawed and therefore your conclusion is baseless which I have done successfully since you have ignored logic in framing arguments and I have pointed this out and therefore rendered your arguments and conclusion flawed.
The facts that hopping and alt farming are legit still stand and your argument does not. Bottom line. You can can keep trying to justify your conclusion but until you present a logically sound argument you don't have a foot to stand on.
1- Vaderage dev response : we are emergency dealing with this, do not do it or risk punishment/ban, those who did it will also get what's coming to them.
2- Hop/alt dev response: you can do it until we come up with a new scheme. Pt 2: new rules, hopping/alting still allowed, more restricted
Unless 2 happened how much % of the (a frequent practise) hoppers would hop? The supposed exploit association is nonexistent. My last word here.
Replies
Do you think it's what got him banned? I liked his "why is everyone surprised" thread. Completely agree with what he said. He should of used the dog in his "NRAJ said do it" appreciation post.
The outrage was compounded by the ridiculous amount of crystals they were asking for in game to players who didn't take advantage of guild hopping and alt farming.
It completely undermines every aspect of competition in the game along with taking a dump on anyone that pays for gear or credits. I know it must be fun to smirk about it but it destroyed the integrity of the game and is against the ToS. There is no button to buy an extra 600 guild coins in game and alt farming/guild hopping does just that for 50 crystals.
You can argue it takes time but we both know it doesn't, it takes 5 minutes to do dailies and 5 minutes to cash in free energy, it takes literally zero time to invite an ally to join a guild.
So for 10 minutes play time tops and 50 crystals a day, you double the amount of raids you can do but there is no option in game for anyone who doesn't know about this loophole or have an alt account to do the same. It is an exploit.
What's next? Banning people who took advantage of the game mechanics to get lots of Vader shards, or claim multiple raid rewards?
All nonsense
In conclusion - you still don't know what the exploit is and probably never will.
That's interesting, why do you say that?
You'll figure it out eventually.. Maybe if you try expanding on how one person spending 100 crystals (or is it 50) gets all this extra stuff. Basic logic and simple math is all you need.
Do you actually think you're contributing anything to this thread by just stating your conclusions and not providing any logic, analysis, or reasoning?
You have stated nothing that would allow me or anyone else to come to the conclusion that anything I stated was nonsense. Therefore I can only logically conclude that it is not true.
Already answered your real question many posts ago - I don't know what the exploit is.
And in case you haven't figured it out in all these posts, I do not have to present any logic analysis or reasoning to state a fact. A fact is a fact. Like the world is round - fact. Hopping is legit - fact. Alt farming is legit - fact.
I don't have to build a case for what I say because it is a fact. You've tried and failed at disproving this fact. You've started with a conclusion which is nothing but your opinion that hopping or alt farming is an exploit and built a logically flawed case to support it. You have no evidence that no other exploit exists, so you simply assume it does not exist. From that basis, which is already weak, you infer your conclusion that alt farming must be the exploit. Your base assumption is false, and therefore anything you infer from it is also false.
As far as contribution to this thread goes - I'm satisfied with my contribution since my purpose is to ensure that people that read this thread don't get carried away with your flawed logic and support your flawed conclusion.
A string of weak assumptions mixed with opinions and selective interpretation of the ToS and therefore a false conclusion. You haven't proved a thing to me.
What would it take to prove this is an exploit to you?
The only facts I need to prove it are that it isn't an ingame feature, it is exploitable to exceed in game caps, it requires the use of a dummy account and reduces the cost to obtain gear and credits drastically whilst reducing the farm time for raid specific characters. The devs said it was never intended to be used like that, i.e a design flaw. Alt factory is a totally different thing and one would hope if a guild somehow managed to exceed 30k guild coins per day they would report it as a bug. That didn't happen yet offenders recieved no ban or punishment for exploiting that.
Lastly when people compare this to wow, just remember this, Alts are available in game to all as a feature in wow.
It's an exploit which shouldn't have been allowed in the first place and when it did it should have been made the utmost priority to be patched in the following days. But we know what happened, devs granted the -go- signal until they changed the rules. Damage happened. There is not much to talk.
Your claim for punishment obviously won't and shouldn't happen, it wasn't the players fault (just like nothing happened to precrafters). If you haven't adapted to the current and still ask everything to be rolled back to your imaginary how a player should play paradigm, that's on you.
The difference being that pre-crafting was never officially called an exploit. If this is the known exploit, and given that exploits are against the ToS, then punishment for continuing to use the exploit would be appropriate given the official stance on it.
Thats 2 totally different things!
Vader shards was reclaiming a specific achievment over and over << exploit
Guild hopping is a practice where you put extra "work" in to gain something extra using a game mechanic! << Not an exploit
Was this "loophole" intended to begin with? Doubt it! But it was there, worked for a few months and is still working! Devs just made it more complicated
Just because you dont want to hop around and you claiming its an exploit doesnt make it so! You being annoyed that others could get more rewards than you does not justify punishing/banning anyone...
The reason they want to eliminate guild hopping is to further slow down progress of the playerbase and make more money in the process with the frustration they created!
If devs really see guild hopping as an exploit, why not fix it properly? Why just create extra hoops to jump through?
And OP lets see if we can come up with a real life example of your crying for ban/punishment...
2 guys grow up next to each other. When they become adults, 1 of them works hard and steps up the ladder, has a nicer house, a better car etc. The other one is still working at the burgerjoint and has a mouldy house and a rustbucket of a car...
The burgerjoint guy now gets annoyed/angry/envious of the "rich" guy and wants both of them to be equals so he has now 2 options:
1. Trying to get where the "rich guy" is or
2. Trying to kick the rich guy down
Option 1 presents a way to do something with your life and get better whild option 2 means crying for the IRS to bust the rich guy and get him busted, even though rich guy got his wealth using legal means...
Whos the bad guy here?
Hopping is never officially called an exploit either. I do agree that it's an exploit, but neither our opinions matter unless the devs decide to call it as such. Even with this update they didn't, neither did they make hopping or alting impossible, just more restrained. And within the new ruleset, I will probably keep on doing well-timed hops.
The choice of words you quoted on the op post makes their desire to not fully set a hard rule, but to -incentivise- clear, does it not?
Let's assume a dev stated -hey, now we thought a bit more about it we saw that guild hopping is indeed an exploit-, even that wouldn't warrant retroactive punishment.
1) Switching guilds is an ingame feature - you can join a new guild x times a day.
2) Raiding in multiple guilds is an in game feature - you can raid and gain rewards in multiple guilds subject to a cooldown period coded into the game. This used to be x, and is now y - just like mod drop rates were 100% and now they are something else.
3) Having an alt is also completely legit. Comparing it to wow is irrelevant. If you were not supposed to roll an alt, it would have been explicitly mentioned or otherwise coded into the game. It is not. What you can and cannot do with an alt is also entirely your opinion, not supported by anything in the game code or instructions provided by those that manage the game.
To summarize - you have a certain interpretation of in game caps and rolling alts - they are all just your opinions and absolutely irrelevant because they does not match with a) how the game is coded and b) any other instructions provided by those that manage the game
When one of the devs spoke about something that was never intended - you interpreted that in whatever way you wanted to suit your conclusion. Unless you are part of the team that manages the game, your interpretation is as irrelevant as your earlier opinions and any conclusions you draw from said interpretation are flawed.
As far as the ToS are concerned - violating GeorgeRules' opinions and interpretation of in game caps is not mentioned anywhere so referring to the ToS is as meaningless as every other part of your arguments.
Your welcome to follow your interpretation of anything in this game, as is anyone else that agrees with your opinion. However, no one is bound by your opinions and interpretations and cannot be punished for violating your interpretation of how the game is to be played in the past, presently or in the future.
There was a 24 hour rolling timer in place to prevent too many hops already. This documents in the game pretty overtly in game a feature. It also shows the devs had already addressed changing/hopping guilds in their code and put a mechanic in place to keep it in check. Jesse's wording in his update separated hopping and the exploit "an exploit associated with hopping" not that hopping was the exploit. Lastly, the Devs came on the official forums stating it's ok to use this mechanic, even going so far as to congratulate the individual who received the first Han Solo using this game mechanic. I've asked both here and on Reddit what this exploit was and every time my question gets crickets. Finally, can you provide me with a list/website/manual of the documented features of this game please? This is a list of facts, I've drawn my conclusions from it and played the game accordingly. I will also log in to the game much less now. Here's some opinions. The game is much less fun without hopping and the slowing of character progression. I'm also much less inclined to spend money and support a game I don't find fun. Finally, I've never seen a tutorial for the "retreat" button so I'm pretty sure that's an exploit and those using it to complete GW and get better raid rankings should be banned. Clearly exploiting for more rewards than they deserve.
The Vader exploit also required extra work through the in-game mechanic, to my understanding—it wasn't simply clicking "accept" over and over again like it was with the raid rewards exploit.
But it doesn't really matter, because an exploit is what the devs say it is, and in this case they seem to be calling hopping and alting an exploit.
Find me another, earlier, thread that discusses guild hopping and alting in the context of the the latest update saying that a "known exploit" is associated with hopping.
Ok, and that exploit is dealt with the way they see fit. First they gave it -good to go- signal on both fronts in very clear terms (how is it possible ignore this key to your argument bit?), then they changed the rules. Your call for a witchhunt is what's redundant here. We are wasting our breath.
I suggest you read the dev comments again. They make no mention of alting, and only refer to "players" sacrificing for the benefit of a guild mate. They don't take about alt accounts controlled by the same playeer sacrificing for primary accounts.
If you remember, retreating used to be a different mechanic than it is now: your progress to that point would be saved, including the death of your own characters. However, because you could avoid this by force-quitting the app, they changed the mechanic by making retreat act the same way as force quit. This is a documented change. And yes, arguably force quitting was an exploit, but it was never described as such. Furthermore, it isn't possible to track those who gamed the system by force quitting, making it impossible to police. This isn't an obstacle when it comes to alt farming.
You have not seen any suggestions is where the facts end.
Hopping and alting are not exploits. Trying to connect the dots to conveniently suit your opinion, no matter how you try does not make hopping or alt farming expoits.
Does not seem that way to me. You are reaching again.
I don't have to prove facts. I simply have to state them. That's what makes them facts. To disprove said fact, the burden of presenting evidence falls on you. My contribution to this thread is to show that your arguments and assumptions are flawed and therefore your conclusion is baseless which I have done successfully since you have ignored logic in framing arguments and I have pointed this out and therefore rendered your arguments and conclusion flawed.
The facts that hopping and alt farming are legit still stand and your argument does not. Bottom line. You can can keep trying to justify your conclusion but until you present a logically sound argument you don't have a foot to stand on.
2- Hop/alt dev response: you can do it until we come up with a new scheme. Pt 2: new rules, hopping/alting still allowed, more restricted
Unless 2 happened how much % of the (a frequent practise) hoppers would hop? The supposed exploit association is nonexistent. My last word here.