As much as I love these discussions, I'd like to point out how difficult it can be to have them when most of the lore (canon and otherwise) is often obfuscated by poor, inconsistent writing with plot holes galore.
I agree. I also agree with what you were saying about order 66. They could have done way better with the way the clones killed the jedi...it just seemed super rushed.
I just don't understand how you can deny that's what happened when the scene suggests this is literally what happened.
Well, because that's all it was. An ambiguous situation that is open to interpretation. You interpret it as Chirrut being guided and protected by the Force. I just don't see it that way, because a) that would be a first EVER for the Force, b) it would make Chirrut greater than any other Jedi in history and c) why then and there of all places?
If we assume for a moment that what you say is true, what "business" would the Force have in aiding the Rebels to such an extent? And why help them in THAT way and in THAT very moment? Not at any time before or after?
Chirrut is built up the whole movie to give us a different look at a person that trusts in the force, but isn't a jedi.
Agreed (and I actually liked that), but what irritates me is that if he can use the Force in ways that neither Anakin nor Luke can, it detracts from their being most powerful Jedi ever and the "chosen one" myth crumbles into dust, because here is a guy who has such a connection with the Force that it makes him impervious to all harm. Let me state this again: never before nor ever after have we seen a being made godlike by the Force. Not to such an extent.
That is why I'm saying the creators simply went too far with this. If they stuck to the idea of a skilled warrior perhaps aided by the Force in some way, made him run out there, deflect a few blaster bolts, maybe getting hit once or twice, before just barely reaching the switch, it would have made the scene so much more realistic. But the best solution, for me, would have been to have Chirrut fall just short of the switch, then reach out with the Force and turn it before dying, giving Baze something to think about (that maybe Chirrut WAS a Jedi after all).
As much as I love these discussions, I'd like to point out how difficult it can be to have them when most of the lore (canon and otherwise) is often obfuscated by poor, inconsistent writing with plot holes galore.
I'm actually hoping that we'll have a book about Chirrut and Baze show up at some point, shedding some light on these two characters. Out of the entire cast of the movie, I found them to be the most interesting. Couldn't care less about Jyn or Cassian, but these two were actually quite good. And have the potential for quite a few more stories (prequels, obviously ).
I agree. I also agree with what you were saying about order 66. They could have done way better with the way the clones killed the jedi...it just seemed super rushed.
Sadly, yes. What had the potential for a cery dramatic scene, showing Jedi hunted down, showing the good and bad sides of regular people who either gave them shelter or turned them in, showing the tragedy (well, to some extent, I say they had it coming and deserved it), the pain and suffering involved, they just showed a few ridiculous executions that a youngling on his second day of training would have avoided. Not cool. Not coll at all.
@Ring
To your first point a) i thought we established Chirruts force walk and Lukes force guided proton torpedoes were on the same vein b) greater in the aspect of his unbounding trust in the force?yes. I think that is what they were going for when they made his character. Something we've never seen before in star wars. Literal blind faith. Pretty much like a super devout christian or blind buddhist. Someone who completely threw away any and all previous misconceptions and apprehensions. Luke still struggles, obiwan struggles until in exile, yoda struggles.
I mean think about this Quigon was clearly the most "devout" Jedi, yet by the Order he is considered a maverick and unfit to sit on the jedi council. And he discovers immortality!!! Its the single greatest part of the prequels. All the jedi are so indoctrinated and poisoned by politics they refuse to honor the most devout of them. But i am getting sidetracked. Chirrut embodies something we've only glimpsed in Luke, quigon, obiwan, yoda, and ahsoka. Never in anakin or mace or quinlon. When you completely surrender to the force it doesnt manifest as an ability, it literaly works in a supernatural death and logic defying way.
As for the Chosen One not being able to do stuff like that. First let me say I have always viewed the prophecy as a misdirection created by the Sith. The Jedi of the Prequels strike me as gullible and naive. I think this is one reason they are disliked by older fans/fans that saw the Original trilogy first. It killed our view of the jedi. Obiwan and yoda were good guys but boy were they dumb. It is their exile that turned them into the immortal heroes present in the original trilogy. Another point: anakin grew up believing he was the chosen one, knowing the prophecy and thinking it was about him. Just imagine hiw arrogant that made him.
@Ring
To your first point a) i thought we established Chirruts force walk and Lukes force guided proton torpedoes were on the same vein b) greater in the aspect of his unbounding trust in the force?yes. I think that is what they were going for when they made his character. Something we've never seen before in star wars. Literal blind faith. Pretty much like a super devout christian or blind buddhist. Someone who completely threw away any and all previous misconceptions and apprehensions. Luke still struggles, obiwan struggles until in exile, yoda struggles.
I mean think about this Quigon was clearly the most "devout" Jedi, yet by the Order he is considered a maverick and unfit to sit on the jedi council. And he discovers immortality!!! Its the single greatest part of the prequels. All the jedi are so indoctrinated and poisoned by politics they refuse to honor the most devout of them. But i am getting sidetracked. Chirrut embodies something we've only glimpsed in Luke, quigon, obiwan, yoda, and ahsoka. Never in anakin or mace or quinlon. When you completely surrender to the force it doesnt manifest as an ability, it literaly works in a supernatural death and logic defying way.
As for the Chosen One not being able to do stuff like that. First let me say I have always viewed the prophecy as a misdirection created by the Sith. The Jedi of the Prequels strike me as gullible and naive. I think this is one reason they are disliked by older fans/fans that saw the Original trilogy first. It killed our view of the jedi. Obiwan and yoda were good guys but boy were they dumb. It is their exile that turned them into the immortal heroes present in the original trilogy. Another point: anakin grew up believing he was the chosen one, knowing the prophecy and thinking it was about him. Just imagine hiw arrogant that made him.
I feel ya on the Chosen One Prophecy. Jedi fighting to "balance" the Force, but forgetting balance means equal number, vs the current thousand advantage.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
i thought this was the best movie yet. i would put empire strikes as second best. of course, i am not a fanatic but i am a film buff and this was the most captivating of the storylines imo.
i thought this was the best movie yet. i would put empire strikes as second best. of course, i am not a fanatic but i am a film buff and this was the most captivating of the storylines imo.
i thought this was the best movie yet. i would put empire strikes as second best. of course, i am not a fanatic but i am a film buff and this was the most captivating of the storylines imo.
The cringe is strong with this one
My order:
1. V
2. R1
3. VI
4. IV
5. III
6. VII
7. I
8. II
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
i thought this was the best movie yet. i would put empire strikes as second best. of course, i am not a fanatic but i am a film buff and this was the most captivating of the storylines imo.
The cringe is strong with this one
My order:
1. V
2. R1
3. VI
4. IV
5. III
6. VII
7. I
8. II
I have seen Rogue One now enough times (10+) where I have fluctuated through various levels of enjoyment and critique.
What I appreciated most about it is the fact that instead of expository dialogue asking me to take the storyteller's word for it that the Empire are really dastardly, I actually felt it for a change -- specifically the first shot of Jedha, with the giant statue overturned followed shortly thereafter by the star destroyer hovering over Jedha City, along with that heavy industrial music. It felt... ominous.
This was certainly darker and more serious than any other SW movie other than maybe Ep. 3 but still had enough trademark comic relief -- intended and otherwise -- to keep from being too serious. In hindsight, TFA by contrast seems like a cartoon to me (I enjoyed TFA, not bashing it, and likewise watched it over a dozen times or so) but Rogue One was a far better movie.
Intended comic relief obviously stemmed mostly from K2SO -- but the hardest I laughed was at Cassian during one of the film's more serious moments, when K2 is reiterating what Jyn said about how to dismantle the Death Star:
K2S0: "One blast to the reactor module and the whole system goes down. That's how you said it.
The whole. system. goes. down."
Cassian: [snarling] "Get to work fixing our comms!"
And during the first viewing, just when I was starting to question whether I liked Cassian or not, he quickly wins me over as he terminates the whiny Scottish guy in the beginning, ("I'll never climb out of here, my arm!")
My favorite character interplay though was between Krennic and Tarkin (and no, I don't have any problem with the CGI, it didn't take me out of the movie like it seems to have done to so many others.) I think they were my two favorite characters, the dickish rivalry, their scenes were really what tied the thing together... and more unintended comedy, when Tarkin remembers that Krennic is down on Scarif, tells the flunky "you may fire when ready." Hilarious.
I didn't care much for Rey the Mary Sue -- I enjoyed TFA in spite of her obnoxiousness -- conversely Jyn was a very likeable lead, wasn't pushed on us as some infallible savior. Rooting for your lead characters matters. TFA I was only rooting for Finn.
Sure, there were some corny parts (Galen's hologram) but overall this was a thoroughly entertaining movie. When time allows, watch it immediately followed by ANH and it's a solid prequel.
I have seen Rogue One now enough times (10+) where I have fluctuated through various levels of enjoyment and critique.
What I appreciated most about it is the fact that instead of expository dialogue asking me to take the storyteller's word for it that the Empire are really dastardly, I actually felt it for a change -- specifically the first shot of Jedha, with the giant statue overturned followed shortly thereafter by the star destroyer hovering over Jedha City, along with that heavy industrial music. It felt... ominous.
This was certainly darker and more serious than any other SW movie other than maybe Ep. 3 but still had enough trademark comic relief -- intended and otherwise -- to keep from being too serious. In hindsight, TFA by contrast seems like a cartoon to me (I enjoyed TFA, not bashing it, and likewise watched it over a dozen times or so) but Rogue One was a far better movie.
Intended comic relief obviously stemmed mostly from K2SO -- but the hardest I laughed was at Cassian during one of the film's more serious moments, when K2 is reiterating what Jyn said about how to dismantle the Death Star:
K2S0: "One blast to the reactor module and the whole system goes down. That's how you said it.
The whole. system. goes. down."
Cassian: [snarling] "Get to work fixing our comms!"
And during the first viewing, just when I was starting to question whether I liked Cassian or not, he quickly wins me over as he terminates the whiny Scottish guy in the beginning, ("I'll never climb out of here, my arm!")
My favorite character interplay though was between Krennic and Tarkin (and no, I don't have any problem with the CGI, it didn't take me out of the movie like it seems to have done to so many others.) I think they were my two favorite characters, the dickish rivalry, their scenes were really what tied the thing together... and more unintended comedy, when Tarkin remembers that Krennic is down on Scarif, tells the flunky "you may fire when ready." Hilarious.
I didn't care much for Rey the Mary Sue -- I enjoyed TFA in spite of her obnoxiousness -- conversely Jyn was a very likeable lead, wasn't pushed on us as some infallible savior. Rooting for your lead characters matters. TFA I was only rooting for Finn.
Sure, there were some corny parts (Galen's hologram) but overall this was a thoroughly entertaining movie. When time allows, watch it immediately followed by ANH and it's a solid prequel.
I think much of the movie that was effective for you didn't have the same effect on me. For me, nearly all of the characters had the same gray, bland non-personality that made it difficult to understand what their relationships and motivations were. When they weren't bland, they were incredibly inconsistent with what we're told. You mentioned Cassian murdering his accomplice but we never again see Cassian do anything like that. We're also told that Jyn is some rebellious person who resists authority, but we never see that. All Jyn does is give sappy speeches about hope that aren't consistent with the dark tone everyone seems to love. Because of all this, many of the scenes that intended on being intense or exciting, failed to do so because I didn't really care about the characters involved.
Most of the angst I feel towards this movie doesn't necessarily stem from the things it did badly, but more from the things that had tons of potential but we didn't see enough of (or at all). The story (which should have been far more linear and streamlined) was so cluttered with characters and pointless scenes (im looking at you, "choke on your aspirations"), there wasn't enough time to explore other stuff that could have been more interesting. For example, I wanted to see how Jyn came to be the rebellious person she's made out to be under the guidance of Saw, I wanted to see more of the relationship between Krennic and Galen, and hell, I wanted to see some spying. The problem with adding all of these extra characters and relationships, is that they open up all this potential that there isn't time to explore.
I have seen Rogue One now enough times (10+) where I have fluctuated through various levels of enjoyment and critique.
What I appreciated most about it is the fact that instead of expository dialogue asking me to take the storyteller's word for it that the Empire are really dastardly, I actually felt it for a change -- specifically the first shot of Jedha, with the giant statue overturned followed shortly thereafter by the star destroyer hovering over Jedha City, along with that heavy industrial music. It felt... ominous.
This was certainly darker and more serious than any other SW movie other than maybe Ep. 3 but still had enough trademark comic relief -- intended and otherwise -- to keep from being too serious. In hindsight, TFA by contrast seems like a cartoon to me (I enjoyed TFA, not bashing it, and likewise watched it over a dozen times or so) but Rogue One was a far better movie.
Intended comic relief obviously stemmed mostly from K2SO -- but the hardest I laughed was at Cassian during one of the film's more serious moments, when K2 is reiterating what Jyn said about how to dismantle the Death Star:
K2S0: "One blast to the reactor module and the whole system goes down. That's how you said it.
The whole. system. goes. down."
Cassian: [snarling] "Get to work fixing our comms!"
And during the first viewing, just when I was starting to question whether I liked Cassian or not, he quickly wins me over as he terminates the whiny Scottish guy in the beginning, ("I'll never climb out of here, my arm!")
My favorite character interplay though was between Krennic and Tarkin (and no, I don't have any problem with the CGI, it didn't take me out of the movie like it seems to have done to so many others.) I think they were my two favorite characters, the dickish rivalry, their scenes were really what tied the thing together... and more unintended comedy, when Tarkin remembers that Krennic is down on Scarif, tells the flunky "you may fire when ready." Hilarious.
I didn't care much for Rey the Mary Sue -- I enjoyed TFA in spite of her obnoxiousness -- conversely Jyn was a very likeable lead, wasn't pushed on us as some infallible savior. Rooting for your lead characters matters. TFA I was only rooting for Finn.
Sure, there were some corny parts (Galen's hologram) but overall this was a thoroughly entertaining movie. When time allows, watch it immediately followed by ANH and it's a solid prequel.
I think much of the movie that was effective for you didn't have the same effect on me. For me, nearly all of the characters had the same gray, bland non-personality that made it difficult to understand what their relationships and motivations were. When they weren't bland, they were incredibly inconsistent with what we're told. You mentioned Cassian murdering his accomplice but we never again see Cassian do anything like that. We're also told that Jyn is some rebellious person who resists authority, but we never see that. All Jyn does is give sappy speeches about hope that aren't consistent with the dark tone everyone seems to love. Because of all this, many of the scenes that intended on being intense or exciting, failed to do so because I didn't really care about the characters involved.
Most of the angst I feel towards this movie doesn't necessarily stem from the things it did badly, but more from the things that had tons of potential but we didn't see enough of (or at all). The story (which should have been far more linear and streamlined) was so cluttered with characters and pointless scenes (im looking at you, "choke on your aspirations"), there wasn't enough time to explore other stuff that could have been more interesting. For example, I wanted to see how Jyn came to be the rebellious person she's made out to be under the guidance of Saw, I wanted to see more of the relationship between Krennic and Galen, and hell, I wanted to see some spying. The problem with adding all of these extra characters and relationships, is that they open up all this potential that there isn't time to explore.
If you're not finding personality within the characters, you're clearly not looking. The biggest part of Cassian's arc is that he no longer blindly murders people just because he's told too. Jyn does rebel, against the Rebellion. The Vader gave Krennic a sense of urgency, which caused him to be sloppy. If you want to see more about Krennic and Galen, read the book that prequels the movie.
#CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere." The more you tighten your grip, CG/EA, the more whales will slip through your fingers (and go F2P or quit).
I have seen Rogue One now enough times (10+) where I have fluctuated through various levels of enjoyment and critique.
What I appreciated most about it is the fact that instead of expository dialogue asking me to take the storyteller's word for it that the Empire are really dastardly, I actually felt it for a change -- specifically the first shot of Jedha, with the giant statue overturned followed shortly thereafter by the star destroyer hovering over Jedha City, along with that heavy industrial music. It felt... ominous.
This was certainly darker and more serious than any other SW movie other than maybe Ep. 3 but still had enough trademark comic relief -- intended and otherwise -- to keep from being too serious. In hindsight, TFA by contrast seems like a cartoon to me (I enjoyed TFA, not bashing it, and likewise watched it over a dozen times or so) but Rogue One was a far better movie.
Intended comic relief obviously stemmed mostly from K2SO -- but the hardest I laughed was at Cassian during one of the film's more serious moments, when K2 is reiterating what Jyn said about how to dismantle the Death Star:
K2S0: "One blast to the reactor module and the whole system goes down. That's how you said it.
The whole. system. goes. down."
Cassian: [snarling] "Get to work fixing our comms!"
And during the first viewing, just when I was starting to question whether I liked Cassian or not, he quickly wins me over as he terminates the whiny Scottish guy in the beginning, ("I'll never climb out of here, my arm!")
My favorite character interplay though was between Krennic and Tarkin (and no, I don't have any problem with the CGI, it didn't take me out of the movie like it seems to have done to so many others.) I think they were my two favorite characters, the dickish rivalry, their scenes were really what tied the thing together... and more unintended comedy, when Tarkin remembers that Krennic is down on Scarif, tells the flunky "you may fire when ready." Hilarious.
I didn't care much for Rey the Mary Sue -- I enjoyed TFA in spite of her obnoxiousness -- conversely Jyn was a very likeable lead, wasn't pushed on us as some infallible savior. Rooting for your lead characters matters. TFA I was only rooting for Finn.
Sure, there were some corny parts (Galen's hologram) but overall this was a thoroughly entertaining movie. When time allows, watch it immediately followed by ANH and it's a solid prequel.
I think much of the movie that was effective for you didn't have the same effect on me. For me, nearly all of the characters had the same gray, bland non-personality that made it difficult to understand what their relationships and motivations were. When they weren't bland, they were incredibly inconsistent with what we're told. You mentioned Cassian murdering his accomplice but we never again see Cassian do anything like that. We're also told that Jyn is some rebellious person who resists authority, but we never see that. All Jyn does is give sappy speeches about hope that aren't consistent with the dark tone everyone seems to love. Because of all this, many of the scenes that intended on being intense or exciting, failed to do so because I didn't really care about the characters involved.
Most of the angst I feel towards this movie doesn't necessarily stem from the things it did badly, but more from the things that had tons of potential but we didn't see enough of (or at all). The story (which should have been far more linear and streamlined) was so cluttered with characters and pointless scenes (im looking at you, "choke on your aspirations"), there wasn't enough time to explore other stuff that could have been more interesting. For example, I wanted to see how Jyn came to be the rebellious person she's made out to be under the guidance of Saw, I wanted to see more of the relationship between Krennic and Galen, and hell, I wanted to see some spying. The problem with adding all of these extra characters and relationships, is that they open up all this potential that there isn't time to explore.
If you're not finding personality within the characters, you're clearly not looking. The biggest part of Cassian's arc is that he no longer blindly murders people just because he's told too. Jyn does rebel, against the Rebellion. The Vader gave Krennic a sense of urgency, which caused him to be sloppy. If you want to see more about Krennic and Galen, read the book that prequels the movie.
I fail to see how your argument about Cassian is valid. Throughout the movie, he's killing people he wants to kill, not because he's told to. Nobody told him to kill that guy in the Blade Runner city and he had orders to kill Galen and Saw but he wanted to do that anyway. At the end, he goes against orders but only because he wanted to go kill more people. If Cassian has a personality, its as "the guy who wants to kill people".
Just because Jyn went through a ten minute phase where she liked saying she didnt like the rebellion doesn't make her a rebellious person. She never actually does anything to "rebel". We see her in jail but theres no context for what she did.
Krennic was already sloppy and had Tarkin provoking him. We didnt need that cheesy scene. That was pure, unadulterated fan service that had no purpose other than to make vaders scene at the end less impactful than it could have been.
I shouldn't have to do research just to appreciate a star wars movie. If it didn't happen in the movies or TV show, I dont care about it
How was the original trilogy bad exactly? The characters are household names. The effects were CUTTING EDGE for the time period. The storyline was robust and fleshed out well imo. Finally, with today's attention span of five minutes, there would be no massive Star Wars galaxy without the prequels. I am not aware of any Fast and Furious or Pirates of the Carribean games of this magnitude.
How was the original trilogy bad exactly? The characters are household names. The effects were CUTTING EDGE for the time period. The storyline was robust and fleshed out well imo. Finally, with today's attention span of five minutes, there would be no massive Star Wars galaxy without the prequels. I am not aware of any Fast and Furious or Pirates of the Carribean games of this magnitude.
I dont think anyone is calling the original trilogy bad
Cassian isn't the best character for sure. It took me 5 times of watching it to really understand what they were getting at with him. Here's my analysis:
Cassian is a child of war. Similar to Ahsoka in the fact that all he knows is war. He is a yes-man. Going where he's told and carrying out his mission without ever really questioning if he was doing it for the right reasons. If you have read Battlefront: Twilight Company I could equate his character to the main protagonist of that book. He isn't fighting because he believes in the cause. He is fighting because it is all he knows. Only a small event in his past determined whether his skills were used for the Rebellion or the Empire. Over the course of the movie we see him finally believing in what the Alliance is about. He starts questioning his orders because he finally sees that the rebellion is about something more than just two sides of a war. They are fighting for the integrity of the galaxy. Cassian is finally able to trust others. Before that he is alone. Even his main companion is not allowed to carry a gun and is forced to stay behind, so Cassian can mostly work alone. He is like Saw in the beginning. Willing to do anything just to see the Empire suffer. But the Alliance is more than that and as the movie progresses he comes to realize this. Another comparable character you can find in the Star Wars Annual #1 comic. A rebel spy working on Corascant details the evil hes had to do in the name of good. Revelations in the comic break him and later he reappears in an arc of the Star Wars main comic as a frenemy. This crazed version of the man, Like Saw, becomes an extremeist. A road I think Cassian avoids because of the growth he experiences in the movie. Its harder to see, takes a few watches but Cassian is a pretty heavy character imo. Not my favorite by any means but I think the subtleties of his character work well.
I like the prequels, and I thought rogue one was better than force awakens. At least rogue one had a legit reason to use the Death Star. I thought the prequels had good character development and plot twists, and TFA should just be a reboot like the new Star Trek movies. TFA was a new hope almost to a T. The First Order, or JJ Abrams for the fact can't come up with anything new, girl is kidnapped(Leia, Rey), bad guys build a Death Star/ bigger Death Star( with an even lamer name this time), rebels/resistance x-wings do the tunnel run and blow up Death Star. I think Darth maul would kill Kylo Ren anyday. Took two Jedi to kill Maul, kylo barely beat Finn and Rey. Luke had to train with Yoda to use the force, Luke trained Kylo, and Rey easily beat him the day she learned about the force. Movie was made for those with no attention span.
I like the prequels, and I thought rogue one was better than force awakens. At least rogue one had a legit reason to use the Death Star. I thought the prequels had good character development and plot twists, and TFA should just be a reboot like the new Star Trek movies. TFA was a new hope almost to a T. The First Order, or JJ Abrams for the fact can't come up with anything new, girl is kidnapped(Leia, Rey), bad guys build a Death Star/ bigger Death Star( with an even lamer name this time), rebels/resistance x-wings do the tunnel run and blow up Death Star. I think Darth maul would kill Kylo Ren anyday. Took two Jedi to kill Maul, kylo barely beat Finn and Rey. Luke had to train with Yoda to use the force, Luke trained Kylo, and Rey easily beat him the day she learned about the force. Movie was made for those with no attention span.
The characters from the prequels have no character. If they ever have personality, its painfully written and inconsistent like the decisions they make.
Yes, TFA was a soft reboot of a New Hope (unfortunately) but at least it built on existing material by introducing new unique characters that didnt rely on existing characters to be engaging.
Maul was a fully fledged sith. Kylo Ren is not. And even though Rey was way too good at everything, her battle with kylo was emotional and felt real.
Also, the quality of a character is not determined by how good at choreography the script says they are. Maul has no character and theres no reason to like him other than "he looks cool and does a flip".
I like the prequels, and I thought rogue one was better than force awakens. At least rogue one had a legit reason to use the Death Star. I thought the prequels had good character development and plot twists, and TFA should just be a reboot like the new Star Trek movies. TFA was a new hope almost to a T. The First Order, or JJ Abrams for the fact can't come up with anything new, girl is kidnapped(Leia, Rey), bad guys build a Death Star/ bigger Death Star( with an even lamer name this time), rebels/resistance x-wings do the tunnel run and blow up Death Star. I think Darth maul would kill Kylo Ren anyday. Took two Jedi to kill Maul, kylo barely beat Finn and Rey. Luke had to train with Yoda to use the force, Luke trained Kylo, and Rey easily beat him the day she learned about the force. Movie was made for those with no attention span.
The characters from the prequels have no character. If they ever have personality, its painfully written and inconsistent like the decisions they make.
Yes, TFA was a soft reboot of a New Hope (unfortunately) but at least it built on existing material by introducing new unique characters that didnt rely on existing characters to be engaging.
Maul was a fully fledged sith. Kylo Ren is not. And even though Rey was way too good at everything, her battle with kylo was emotional and felt real.
Also, the quality of a character is not determined by how good at choreography the script says they are. Maul has no character and theres no reason to like him other than "he looks cool and does a flip".
I thought the whole story of how anakin went to the dark side, his relationship with palpatine, and how he saw the Jedi as hypercritical was marvelous. I think they did such a great job of him doubting the Jedi, that the could remake the prequels from the other point of view, and make the audience really believe the Jedi were the evil ones
Before the prequels, now non canon, there was a time when there was no rule of two. Anakin did bring balance to the force when he went to the dark side and killed the children at the Jedi temple.
The prequels had interesting ideas (that are far better executed in the clone wars show) but they were squandered. We never see obiwan and anakin as friends, george lucas couldnt make up his mind whether anakin was innately evil or lured to the dark side, and the jedi's hypocrisy is so vaguely portrayed that if you haven't seen the tv show, you would hardly understand why the order falls apart.
And what the hell is the deal with the "prophecy"? Who came up with it? How old is it? What does it mean to "bring balance to the force"? Why does anakin have to be some "chosen one"? Why cant he just be some arrogant jedi? Why didnt the jedi order prevent his training if they sensed bad juju?
I love the clone wars, especially when all the droids think Jar Jar is the Jedi they are looking for. Which brings me to my next point... snoke saw the rise and fall of the republic... I'm just saying... what IF?
Rogue One not good? I really did enjoy the film personally. Unlike TFA, it didn't rely heavily on nostalgia and it made ANH feel alot different. It was dark too which is why I enjoyed it. But most of all, we can't forget Jyn's bo oty.
Yes because hatred and fear could ever be good? Just because a lot of Jedi were self righteous doesn't make hate and fear a good thing and the people useing them for world domination good people.
Balence is when evil is gone and peace is present. The force became unbalanced when the Jedi became corrupt and sidious' master (plagious) became very powerful. That's why Vader brought balence to the force when he ended the emperors life. It didn't last long....
I don't know if I disliked Rogue One, but I definitely didn't love it like I love every other Star Wars movie. I don't really want to watch it again, I have no desire to buy the Bluray or collect any merch.
First, some backstory. I was very, very hyped for TFA. I was counting down the days until release, I saw it four times in the theatre and had a viewing party for my friends who hadn't seen it when it released on Bluray. It reinvigorated my adoration for all things Star Wars.
I was not at all hyped for Rogue One. About a week before release I remembered it was on and reminded myself to book a ticket. I saw the film expecting a Star Wars movie, that's not what I got. I watched a war movie set in the Star Wars universe. If it wasn't set in the Star Wars universe it would have been a bad movie in my opinion.
Now the details.
- No opening crawl was a bad decision. That is one of the most memorable parts of Star Wars. Not having it is blasphemy.
- The use of title cards when switching between planets was a bad, but necessary decision. The pacing for the entire first act was way off and title cards were the only way to make it slightly better.
- The score didn't have the same gusto it normally does. It was an adaptation of John Williams' original works which was ultimately disappointing in my eyes (or ears?).
- The costume design was appalling. Obviously anything that was copied from A New Hope was good. But the Rebel soldiers that died on Scariff looked like they jumped straight out of Platoon or Apocalypse Now. We get it, it's a war movie - but it's meant to be a sci-fi. We don't need the same cliché ensemble of army guys. It totally broke the atmosphere of that battle for me.
- This was something I heard but agree with after hearing it. Ask someone who just saw the movie what were the names of the characters? Anyone who isn't a Star Wars fan (or doesn't play a game with the characters in it) has absolutely no idea what the character's names are. Blind Guy, Blind Guy's buddy, Admiral what's his name, the death star designer/Jyn's father guy and so on. A good movie has memorable characters. Every Star Wars movie has memorable characters. Rogue One has one dimensional characters with absolutely no arc whatsoever. Really disappointing.
Here's a theory I heard which sounds legit:
Asia accounts for approximately one third of all box office sales, 90% of which are from China. Star Wars hasn't really caught on in this market, so they are aiming to do so, it's a smart business decision. The issue with appealing to this market is that filmmakers will have to appeal to the what the customers want, hence the two Chinese actors. And what the customers want is mindless action. They want Transformers/Pacific Rim style action movies. No character development whatsoever, lasers, explosions and so on. This is a very bad sign. It means we are likely to see more films tending towards this style, something I don't look forward to. Disney has proven that they can make a 'Star Wars' film with the right feeling to it. Regardless of your thoughts on TFA you will have to agree that it is a 'Star Wars' film. Now they're simply using the Star Wars name to crank out movies which don't belong there simply for the sake of having a new film every year for new merch and new box office sales. A trillion people are going to see Star Wars and they're going to make a zillion dollars, there's no need to change things to this degree to appeal to new markets. It's just corporate greed which resulted in this mediocre war movie with a Star Wars label stuck on it.
Post edited by cosmicturtle333 on
My name is cosmicturtle333, aka CT-333, aka Threes.
Rogue one is infinitely better than TFA. TFA by itself is hard for me to enjoy atm. It has sooo many happy coincidences to move the plot forward and the characters are very inconsistent. one minute Poe is telling Finn they have to go back to Jakku to find BB-8, but after their tie fighter crashes poe just gives up on BB-8 and heads back to the rebel base. The rebel's best pilot just gives up, he doesn't even look for Finn to see if he's alive. That is just one instance of inconsistent character behavior. Btw i shouldn't have to read multiple books just to fill all the plot holes created by TFA.
Rogue one is infinitely better than TFA. TFA by itself is hard for me to enjoy atm. It has sooo many happy coincidences to move the plot forward and the characters are very inconsistent. one minute Poe is telling Finn they have to go back to Jakku to find BB-8, but after their tie fighter crashes poe just gives up on BB-8 and heads back to the rebel base. The rebel's best pilot just gives up, he doesn't even look for Finn to see if he's alive. That is just one instance of inconsistent character behavior. Btw i shouldn't have to read multiple books just to fill all the plot holes created by TFA.
Dude you probably just personally don't know how to appreciate this movie. It's a GREAT movie! It's sad, but great(I don't mean sad is great, lol)! It's so classic, so Star-Wars-style!
Replies
I agree. I also agree with what you were saying about order 66. They could have done way better with the way the clones killed the jedi...it just seemed super rushed.
Well, because that's all it was. An ambiguous situation that is open to interpretation. You interpret it as Chirrut being guided and protected by the Force. I just don't see it that way, because a) that would be a first EVER for the Force, b) it would make Chirrut greater than any other Jedi in history and c) why then and there of all places?
If we assume for a moment that what you say is true, what "business" would the Force have in aiding the Rebels to such an extent? And why help them in THAT way and in THAT very moment? Not at any time before or after?
Agreed (and I actually liked that), but what irritates me is that if he can use the Force in ways that neither Anakin nor Luke can, it detracts from their being most powerful Jedi ever and the "chosen one" myth crumbles into dust, because here is a guy who has such a connection with the Force that it makes him impervious to all harm. Let me state this again: never before nor ever after have we seen a being made godlike by the Force. Not to such an extent.
That is why I'm saying the creators simply went too far with this. If they stuck to the idea of a skilled warrior perhaps aided by the Force in some way, made him run out there, deflect a few blaster bolts, maybe getting hit once or twice, before just barely reaching the switch, it would have made the scene so much more realistic. But the best solution, for me, would have been to have Chirrut fall just short of the switch, then reach out with the Force and turn it before dying, giving Baze something to think about (that maybe Chirrut WAS a Jedi after all).
It's cool, I know these discussions can get a bit harsh as we're all passionate about Star Wars here. That's what makes them so interesting
I'm actually hoping that we'll have a book about Chirrut and Baze show up at some point, shedding some light on these two characters. Out of the entire cast of the movie, I found them to be the most interesting. Couldn't care less about Jyn or Cassian, but these two were actually quite good. And have the potential for quite a few more stories (prequels, obviously
Sadly, yes. What had the potential for a cery dramatic scene, showing Jedi hunted down, showing the good and bad sides of regular people who either gave them shelter or turned them in, showing the tragedy (well, to some extent, I say they had it coming and deserved it), the pain and suffering involved, they just showed a few ridiculous executions that a youngling on his second day of training would have avoided. Not cool. Not coll at all.
To your first point a) i thought we established Chirruts force walk and Lukes force guided proton torpedoes were on the same vein b) greater in the aspect of his unbounding trust in the force?yes. I think that is what they were going for when they made his character. Something we've never seen before in star wars. Literal blind faith. Pretty much like a super devout christian or blind buddhist. Someone who completely threw away any and all previous misconceptions and apprehensions. Luke still struggles, obiwan struggles until in exile, yoda struggles.
I mean think about this Quigon was clearly the most "devout" Jedi, yet by the Order he is considered a maverick and unfit to sit on the jedi council. And he discovers immortality!!! Its the single greatest part of the prequels. All the jedi are so indoctrinated and poisoned by politics they refuse to honor the most devout of them. But i am getting sidetracked. Chirrut embodies something we've only glimpsed in Luke, quigon, obiwan, yoda, and ahsoka. Never in anakin or mace or quinlon. When you completely surrender to the force it doesnt manifest as an ability, it literaly works in a supernatural death and logic defying way.
As for the Chosen One not being able to do stuff like that. First let me say I have always viewed the prophecy as a misdirection created by the Sith. The Jedi of the Prequels strike me as gullible and naive. I think this is one reason they are disliked by older fans/fans that saw the Original trilogy first. It killed our view of the jedi. Obiwan and yoda were good guys but boy were they dumb. It is their exile that turned them into the immortal heroes present in the original trilogy. Another point: anakin grew up believing he was the chosen one, knowing the prophecy and thinking it was about him. Just imagine hiw arrogant that made him.
I feel ya on the Chosen One Prophecy. Jedi fighting to "balance" the Force, but forgetting balance means equal number, vs the current thousand advantage.
My order:
1. V
2. R1
3. VI
4. IV
5. III
6. VII
7. I
8. II
Oh god make it stop
What I appreciated most about it is the fact that instead of expository dialogue asking me to take the storyteller's word for it that the Empire are really dastardly, I actually felt it for a change -- specifically the first shot of Jedha, with the giant statue overturned followed shortly thereafter by the star destroyer hovering over Jedha City, along with that heavy industrial music. It felt... ominous.
This was certainly darker and more serious than any other SW movie other than maybe Ep. 3 but still had enough trademark comic relief -- intended and otherwise -- to keep from being too serious. In hindsight, TFA by contrast seems like a cartoon to me (I enjoyed TFA, not bashing it, and likewise watched it over a dozen times or so) but Rogue One was a far better movie.
Intended comic relief obviously stemmed mostly from K2SO -- but the hardest I laughed was at Cassian during one of the film's more serious moments, when K2 is reiterating what Jyn said about how to dismantle the Death Star:
K2S0: "One blast to the reactor module and the whole system goes down. That's how you said it.
The whole. system. goes. down."
Cassian: [snarling] "Get to work fixing our comms!"
And during the first viewing, just when I was starting to question whether I liked Cassian or not, he quickly wins me over as he terminates the whiny Scottish guy in the beginning, ("I'll never climb out of here, my arm!")
My favorite character interplay though was between Krennic and Tarkin (and no, I don't have any problem with the CGI, it didn't take me out of the movie like it seems to have done to so many others.) I think they were my two favorite characters, the dickish rivalry, their scenes were really what tied the thing together... and more unintended comedy, when Tarkin remembers that Krennic is down on Scarif, tells the flunky "you may fire when ready." Hilarious.
I didn't care much for Rey the Mary Sue -- I enjoyed TFA in spite of her obnoxiousness -- conversely Jyn was a very likeable lead, wasn't pushed on us as some infallible savior. Rooting for your lead characters matters. TFA I was only rooting for Finn.
Sure, there were some corny parts (Galen's hologram) but overall this was a thoroughly entertaining movie. When time allows, watch it immediately followed by ANH and it's a solid prequel.
I think much of the movie that was effective for you didn't have the same effect on me. For me, nearly all of the characters had the same gray, bland non-personality that made it difficult to understand what their relationships and motivations were. When they weren't bland, they were incredibly inconsistent with what we're told. You mentioned Cassian murdering his accomplice but we never again see Cassian do anything like that. We're also told that Jyn is some rebellious person who resists authority, but we never see that. All Jyn does is give sappy speeches about hope that aren't consistent with the dark tone everyone seems to love. Because of all this, many of the scenes that intended on being intense or exciting, failed to do so because I didn't really care about the characters involved.
Most of the angst I feel towards this movie doesn't necessarily stem from the things it did badly, but more from the things that had tons of potential but we didn't see enough of (or at all). The story (which should have been far more linear and streamlined) was so cluttered with characters and pointless scenes (im looking at you, "choke on your aspirations"), there wasn't enough time to explore other stuff that could have been more interesting. For example, I wanted to see how Jyn came to be the rebellious person she's made out to be under the guidance of Saw, I wanted to see more of the relationship between Krennic and Galen, and hell, I wanted to see some spying. The problem with adding all of these extra characters and relationships, is that they open up all this potential that there isn't time to explore.
If you're not finding personality within the characters, you're clearly not looking. The biggest part of Cassian's arc is that he no longer blindly murders people just because he's told too. Jyn does rebel, against the Rebellion. The Vader gave Krennic a sense of urgency, which caused him to be sloppy. If you want to see more about Krennic and Galen, read the book that prequels the movie.
I fail to see how your argument about Cassian is valid. Throughout the movie, he's killing people he wants to kill, not because he's told to. Nobody told him to kill that guy in the Blade Runner city and he had orders to kill Galen and Saw but he wanted to do that anyway. At the end, he goes against orders but only because he wanted to go kill more people. If Cassian has a personality, its as "the guy who wants to kill people".
Just because Jyn went through a ten minute phase where she liked saying she didnt like the rebellion doesn't make her a rebellious person. She never actually does anything to "rebel". We see her in jail but theres no context for what she did.
Krennic was already sloppy and had Tarkin provoking him. We didnt need that cheesy scene. That was pure, unadulterated fan service that had no purpose other than to make vaders scene at the end less impactful than it could have been.
I shouldn't have to do research just to appreciate a star wars movie. If it didn't happen in the movies or TV show, I dont care about it
I dont think anyone is calling the original trilogy bad
Cassian is a child of war. Similar to Ahsoka in the fact that all he knows is war. He is a yes-man. Going where he's told and carrying out his mission without ever really questioning if he was doing it for the right reasons. If you have read Battlefront: Twilight Company I could equate his character to the main protagonist of that book. He isn't fighting because he believes in the cause. He is fighting because it is all he knows. Only a small event in his past determined whether his skills were used for the Rebellion or the Empire. Over the course of the movie we see him finally believing in what the Alliance is about. He starts questioning his orders because he finally sees that the rebellion is about something more than just two sides of a war. They are fighting for the integrity of the galaxy. Cassian is finally able to trust others. Before that he is alone. Even his main companion is not allowed to carry a gun and is forced to stay behind, so Cassian can mostly work alone. He is like Saw in the beginning. Willing to do anything just to see the Empire suffer. But the Alliance is more than that and as the movie progresses he comes to realize this. Another comparable character you can find in the Star Wars Annual #1 comic. A rebel spy working on Corascant details the evil hes had to do in the name of good. Revelations in the comic break him and later he reappears in an arc of the Star Wars main comic as a frenemy. This crazed version of the man, Like Saw, becomes an extremeist. A road I think Cassian avoids because of the growth he experiences in the movie. Its harder to see, takes a few watches but Cassian is a pretty heavy character imo. Not my favorite by any means but I think the subtleties of his character work well.
The characters from the prequels have no character. If they ever have personality, its painfully written and inconsistent like the decisions they make.
Yes, TFA was a soft reboot of a New Hope (unfortunately) but at least it built on existing material by introducing new unique characters that didnt rely on existing characters to be engaging.
Maul was a fully fledged sith. Kylo Ren is not. And even though Rey was way too good at everything, her battle with kylo was emotional and felt real.
Also, the quality of a character is not determined by how good at choreography the script says they are. Maul has no character and theres no reason to like him other than "he looks cool and does a flip".
I thought the whole story of how anakin went to the dark side, his relationship with palpatine, and how he saw the Jedi as hypercritical was marvelous. I think they did such a great job of him doubting the Jedi, that the could remake the prequels from the other point of view, and make the audience really believe the Jedi were the evil ones
And what the hell is the deal with the "prophecy"? Who came up with it? How old is it? What does it mean to "bring balance to the force"? Why does anakin have to be some "chosen one"? Why cant he just be some arrogant jedi? Why didnt the jedi order prevent his training if they sensed bad juju?
I hope you can tell im restraining myself
In other words: RO > TFA
First, some backstory. I was very, very hyped for TFA. I was counting down the days until release, I saw it four times in the theatre and had a viewing party for my friends who hadn't seen it when it released on Bluray. It reinvigorated my adoration for all things Star Wars.
I was not at all hyped for Rogue One. About a week before release I remembered it was on and reminded myself to book a ticket. I saw the film expecting a Star Wars movie, that's not what I got. I watched a war movie set in the Star Wars universe. If it wasn't set in the Star Wars universe it would have been a bad movie in my opinion.
Now the details.
- No opening crawl was a bad decision. That is one of the most memorable parts of Star Wars. Not having it is blasphemy.
- The use of title cards when switching between planets was a bad, but necessary decision. The pacing for the entire first act was way off and title cards were the only way to make it slightly better.
- The score didn't have the same gusto it normally does. It was an adaptation of John Williams' original works which was ultimately disappointing in my eyes (or ears?).
- The costume design was appalling. Obviously anything that was copied from A New Hope was good. But the Rebel soldiers that died on Scariff looked like they jumped straight out of Platoon or Apocalypse Now. We get it, it's a war movie - but it's meant to be a sci-fi. We don't need the same cliché ensemble of army guys. It totally broke the atmosphere of that battle for me.
- This was something I heard but agree with after hearing it. Ask someone who just saw the movie what were the names of the characters? Anyone who isn't a Star Wars fan (or doesn't play a game with the characters in it) has absolutely no idea what the character's names are. Blind Guy, Blind Guy's buddy, Admiral what's his name, the death star designer/Jyn's father guy and so on. A good movie has memorable characters. Every Star Wars movie has memorable characters. Rogue One has one dimensional characters with absolutely no arc whatsoever. Really disappointing.
Here's a theory I heard which sounds legit:
Asia accounts for approximately one third of all box office sales, 90% of which are from China. Star Wars hasn't really caught on in this market, so they are aiming to do so, it's a smart business decision. The issue with appealing to this market is that filmmakers will have to appeal to the what the customers want, hence the two Chinese actors. And what the customers want is mindless action. They want Transformers/Pacific Rim style action movies. No character development whatsoever, lasers, explosions and so on. This is a very bad sign. It means we are likely to see more films tending towards this style, something I don't look forward to. Disney has proven that they can make a 'Star Wars' film with the right feeling to it. Regardless of your thoughts on TFA you will have to agree that it is a 'Star Wars' film. Now they're simply using the Star Wars name to crank out movies which don't belong there simply for the sake of having a new film every year for new merch and new box office sales. A trillion people are going to see Star Wars and they're going to make a zillion dollars, there's no need to change things to this degree to appeal to new markets. It's just corporate greed which resulted in this mediocre war movie with a Star Wars label stuck on it.
This^^^