1. I'm out of the office tonight in 30 mins (7PM), HOWEVER, I'll be back in this thread tomorrow ~ 10AM and we will continue.
2. Your great questions allowed me to get these clarifications, I hope they help for tomorrow's discussion:
CLARIFICATION:
The planned changes are designed to guard against STHan exploiting an infinite Turn Meter loop in Phases 3 and 4 of the Sith Triumvirate Raid. Consequently, those units with “on-damage” turn meter effects will see a change in performance in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” effects applying resistible effects are performing very close to previous levels in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” healing effects are less survivable in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
I hope you all have a great evening and look forward to continuing tomorrow!
Ryan Thomas
That's not hitting on why exposed is being nerfed. Stoo playing dodge ball
ST Han isn't intended to have an infinite loop. (Sorry for short response, going fast).
Oh yeah, I've run the sthan tm reduction squad and it isn't that much fun. The game slows way down as the bounds of weakness stacks. It gets to a point where there is a 1 to 2 second delay when traya is damaged.
Everyone works their tails off for months to build a JTR team, CG nerfs it in the raids. It’s okay for more developed players to have success in raids without you having to nerf the toons because of it. Half of the fun of building a JTR team was to use it in raids. Am I going to get my checking account refunded because you guys as developers got your feelings hurt because your raids were becoming manageable?
CLS completely destroyed the integrity of Rancor but nothing was done about that. Why nerf JTR on raids? It’s a total slap in the face to everyone who worked their tails off to obtain her and build her up.
1. I'm out of the office tonight in 30 mins (7PM), HOWEVER, I'll be back in this thread tomorrow ~ 10AM and we will continue.
2. Your great questions allowed me to get these clarifications, I hope they help for tomorrow's discussion:
CLARIFICATION:
The planned changes are designed to guard against STHan exploiting an infinite Turn Meter loop in Phases 3 and 4 of the Sith Triumvirate Raid. Consequently, those units with “on-damage” turn meter effects will see a change in performance in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” effects applying resistible effects are performing very close to previous levels in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” healing effects are less survivable in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
I hope you all have a great evening and look forward to continuing tomorrow!
Ryan Thomas
That's not hitting on why exposed is being nerfed. Stoo playing dodge ball
ST Han isn't intended to have an infinite loop. (Sorry for short response, going fast).
1. I'm out of the office tonight in 30 mins (7PM), HOWEVER, I'll be back in this thread tomorrow ~ 10AM and we will continue.
2. Your great questions allowed me to get these clarifications, I hope they help for tomorrow's discussion:
CLARIFICATION:
The planned changes are designed to guard against STHan exploiting an infinite Turn Meter loop in Phases 3 and 4 of the Sith Triumvirate Raid. Consequently, those units with “on-damage” turn meter effects will see a change in performance in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” effects applying resistible effects are performing very close to previous levels in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
Current testing indicates those units with “on-damage” healing effects are less survivable in Phases 3 and 4. These units are unaffected in Phases 1 and 2.
I hope you all have a great evening and look forward to continuing tomorrow!
Ryan Thomas
That's not hitting on why exposed is being nerfed. Stoo playing dodge ball
ST Han isn't intended to have an infinite loop. (Sorry for short response, going fast).
Again, @CG_RyDiggs, you are dodging the issue. He specifically mentioned expose. He didn’t mention STH.
Why was the raid not played in a test/beta environment to find this sort of stuff first? Why Give the game changers test accounts at all if you don’t use them for this exact scenario? Then there wouldn’t be as much anger from people wasting resources on teams that get nerfed after a week. I actually would very much appreciate an answer to this. Thank you
innovative gameplay which encourages strategic thinking and “outside the meta” play
@CG_RyDiggs The players did exactly that! So we should think strategically and outside the meta, but TOO strategically and outside the meta?
I completely 100% understand you don't want the new raid on farm Day 1. But to tell the community you want them to develop new and exciting strategies, then punish them because their strategies were too effective is not only hypocritical, it's insulting!
Heya,
Players often amaze with new and innovative ways we don't modify all the time. We may have to agree to disagree that CG has to make calls when game design goals or game intentions are crossed.
I do understand your frustration, and know we work to avoid it if and when we can. I appreciate you sharing!
RT
Sounds to me like we beat your raid too quickly, I saw in an earlier post by CG that you waited till players had found ways to effectively beat the haat until it wasn’t challenging anymore before working on a new raid to introduce new challenges. Just because we found out ways to effectively beat it in under a week doesn’t mean that every team we care up with needs to be nerfed into the ground in terms of raid effectiveness. This is ridiculous, JTR teams deal big damage from expose? Nope no more expose damage, NS beat traya bc she doesn’t have aoe? Nope buff immunity, SThan gives tm from being hit? Psych not anymore btw now other characters don’t work either. This along with the huge outage for players all day (not just a small % of players like you suggested most people probably just haven’t brought the issue up to you bc they know you won’t do anything more) is unbelievably disappointing and insulting
1. Expose is not being removed only slightly reduced impact for Rancor and HAAT
2. Both Raids have many options for managing.
Let's not get too sensational or hyperbolic.
RT
Could you please share what you mean by many options for managing a raid?
I don't know about your game but mine has 2 options for raids:
1. Start
2. Abandon
Capital Games content philosophy, knowing some members of our community may not be aware of SWGOH being a living breathing growing game.
I'm having a discussion here to clarify that point now, so it's clear going forward.
Why is it that every time the player base gets a leg up, it gets ripped from us? Everytime!! Any advantage that we come up with is always taken away. Why should we even try? We meet success just to have that taken from us is insulting. I love this game and star wars, but, jeez. Can you guys just give us a break and let us enjoy what we accomplish? What about the bugs that benefit the raid bosses? Didn't hear anything about that. All I heard was you guys are doing to good, can't have that. Unbelieveable.
I understand your frustration, but I hope you can understand the design intent of new content (like the Rancor and HAAT and DSTB). Fixing issues that 'trivialize' content has been and will be an ongoing action if we deem it in the best interest of the game overall. Sometimes... it's ok. Other times it's not. We have to consider the health of the game, and hope you can appreciate that consideration.
Thank you for your feedback!
Except your now saying those toons you farmed for a specific use can be changed at whim to have no use anymore? I was advised to start farming resistance only to see your nerfing expose this after hundreds of guilds have cleared previoys content and now my guild whos looking to start haat should say forget about it? This only serves the entrenched player base not the new comers to the game and is quite frankly making me wonder if i should cut my losses including all my money ive spent since starting the game
I'm just excited about the raid rewards being mentioned as things that are looked at. Have to assume that means the next update will also fix the poor quality gear to raid difficulty ratio. Making the raid difficult is all well and good but when the raid rewards just hand out a pile of junk that you an get in Pit then it provides no mechanism for guilds to improve and progress through the Tiers. Clearly as much an oversight as the Stormtrooper Han oversight.
You know, you could have made it so STH gains TM too and he would have popped out of his taunt after 15 attacks. Fixed. A small, simple change, no need to nerf anybody else or change the abilities of 15 characters that respond to damage. Heck, give him double the TM increase so we only get 7 free hits in. With that said, I can totally understand a STH change. I don't understand a few other things though. You should have had a mechanism to deal with NSA and Zombie, a very well known arena combination, via some sort of Traya AoE initially if you were worried about an extra 10 turns from those NS during enrage. Poor planning there. And nerfing RJT is ridiculous. How did you not find that that was the most powerful team during testing? You should have lowered health and increased armor during development, instead you nerf expose and alienate a large section of your player base.
You've already taken a lot of the fun of theorycrafting out of this raid by making the bosses have 1,000,000% tenacity effectively removing the main abilities from half of the character pool. It really feels like this raid is meant for 185M of GP to hit a brick wall until it eventually falls down.
P.S. As someone who has a 7* Visas (and Sion btw), please make it so she heals hurt characters instead of a full health Scavenger Rey over and over.
Just odd to adjust expose for old raids. HAAT could still be a challenge for sub 50m guilds and mine own worked hard to overcome that. I really hope these changes have as little impact as is repeated, as otherwise this could throw us behind the kenobi farm.
And like everyone said, adjust the rewards. More input is needed to get the same output. Remove challenge gear, or make (x) pieces of challenge gear a regular part of rewards (like TW) (just not in the boxes).
In your initial testing and checking what works and what doesn't is JTR squads essential for doing significant damage and accomplishing the heroic raid? Are there other alternatives or for a guild to beat heroic do we need 50/50 JTR squads? @CG_RyDiggs
Cause if that's the case I'm not mad but please bring the JTR event back
How about releasing new content that has already been fine tuned, not selll a bunch of packs then change the reasons why you would want to purchase them. Seems more concerned with selling new content, than getting it working right in the first place. Any changes like this should come with character reset, if happy with changes you can just set character back up, if not well at least you have components/gear to choose another toon. Refund is another option?
It’s like you forget that people have, and are paying you money for things that you just up and change to work differently.
How many character packs have you sold since raid release? How many of those packs are affected by these changes? Do you even consider these points before making changes? My guessed answers; Thousands. Most. No.
All for game balancing but not when customers are continually screwed over on their purchases.
I'm not pleased these issues were found now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with the numbers for both rewards, and HP tuning to compensate for the expose damage loss. Waiting patiently
With each new Raid, our goals are to bring a new level of challenge to the game and to provide innovative gameplay which encourages strategic thinking and “outside the meta” play. We recognize that when a Raid is new, success in the Raid helps define high level competition in the game. Later, when the Raid becomes widely understood, we begin the process of designing a new Raid so players can be challenged again in this unique aspect of the game.
We regularly evaluate, and update, the current state of any Raid. This regular evaluation can lead to changes such as tuning tweaks, adjustment of rewards, and bug fixes.
Honestly, if this is true, you shouldn’t be applying nerfs to expose in HAAT. Instead, while you’re introducing new challenging content, old content like HAAT should be becoming more manageable.
Specifically, it should be easy to Solo the HAAT at this point. RJT began to allow us to solo parts of the HAAT but now that team is being nerfed.
We’re spending so much time now, on the sith raid, tw, and Tb. We love all the new content, but something else has got to give. Please either “tweak” the HaAT mechanics or release/rework character that enable players to save time by soloing the haat.
We regularly evaluate, and update, the current state of any Raid. This regular evaluation can lead to changes such as ... adjustment of rewards
Okay, this is just a lie. There is no regular evaluation (if there is, please let us know what the schedule is). And as for reward adjustments, the rewards have rarely if ever been adjusted for the raids. Even after a year and a half of complaints about receiving worthless challenge gear from the HAAT raid, we still get pieces we have literally thousands of. These "rewards" make no sense.
And this all just goes back to CG's general tone-deafness about changes. Nerfing long-standing bonuses for certain characters is a negative to all players of this game. If you want to get us on board with these changes, you need to provide some positive balance. How about fixing the rewards for the AAT raid? Or, instead of nerfing our toons in Rancor, why not add a new tier where the rancor is immune to these factors, but with better rewards? But instead you just plan to take things away. Again, it makes no sense.
Creativity? Hahah. Bosses are immune to debuffs, gain infinite speed,you nerfed health based damage, tm manipulation...lol. There’s no room for creativity here and i assume that was intended. The mechanics of the raid will make it such that chipping away at the raid wtih waves and waves of squads will be the only way to take it down. That means clearing the raid will be driven by your guild’s roster depth which is a departure from prior raids where certain squads performes demonstrably better than others. The philosophy of this raid is more in line with TBs which reward roster depth.
I’m fine with giving p2p an edge even a huge edge. But don’t underestimate how many people will come to view the sith raid as a chore. My members are already reporting how frustrated they are that they send in a g12 squad and it does only a couple hundred thousand in damage. Wait until we get to heroic and they need to switch around mods in their entire roster to make a difference. People will throw in the towel quickly. Especially bc the rewards are beyond bad. I took r1 on our maiden t6 and I couldn’t believe the rewards. Literally 2-3 pieces of g12 salvage here and there and challenge gear. Its almost not worth the effort for me. I can’t imagine what my less powerful guild mates think.
Nerfing sth is fine but you’re making a serious mistake with the other things. But I guess folks have to learn the hard way.
I love how if Raids arent working as they intend and you find a workaround, like STHan they fix it within 3 days. TW has a completely broken matchmaking system . Saw a team on TW Discord today that is 77mil GP matched up vs a 138mil GP guild. "Working as intended"
Considering how Sion, a character that's pay to play, is effected by this fix, how are you planning to address the people who bought into this character and his abilities being viable in the new raid? Not to mention the investment in JTR/resistance/etc.
Raid abilities were given, known character abilities are known, I think it's understandable the frustration being expressed here.
It seems like we're being held responsible for poor programing/testing, while it's being waived off as integrity of the raid/etc. People invest time/crystals/gear/etc., they do not expect to have these things waived off at on a whim.
Integrity goes both ways, but is only being held accountable one way. There is a better way to address the storm trooper Han/nightsisters issue without breaking the integrity on so many characters' abilities.
I think it's understandable that this feels like a knee **** reaction, resulting in the exact opposite of integrity.
With each new Raid, our goals are to bring a new level of challenge to the game and to provide innovative gameplay which encourages strategic thinking and “outside the meta” play. We recognize that when a Raid is new, success in the Raid helps define high level competition in the game. Later, when the Raid becomes widely understood, we begin the process of designing a new Raid so players can be challenged again in this unique aspect of the game.
We regularly evaluate, and update, the current state of any Raid. This regular evaluation can lead to changes such as tuning tweaks, adjustment of rewards, and bug fixes.
Really? You regularly evaluate the state of HAAT and Rancor and think challenge gear is still an acceptable reward for heroic tiers? I would love to hear the criteria you use for this regular evaluation of all the raids.
I just wish things that upset the players, mod management, mod implementation, challenge gear in raids, gearing requirements were addressed as quickly as things that upset the developers. Took 2 years to get raid tickets figured out. I doubt anything will be done about challenge gear that I have literal thousands of that have no use in the game even if I geared every character that needed... I would still have thousands left over.
I understand needing to keep the integrity of your content in check and you have a timeline of when people should have Traya, or at least I assume you do. If people bypass that, it needs to be handled, but you don't even congratulate (I may have missed it) that accomplished world's first and beat your content through ingenuity. You just act mad that they played your game, with the tools you gave them. How dare they!? Offer refunds for those that cashed in on a premise of a character working as designed. I wouldn't mind buffs and nerfs, I played LoL competitively for years and loved the buff/nerf cycles. Part of a balanced, fresh game.
You have another opportunity CG/EA to show us you're a company that can be trusted, appreciated and that you like your players. I have played video games all my life for many great developers. Maybe I am wrong for comparing you to Blizzard, Riot, Square, etc. and I need to stop trying to think you're gonna up your game and not expect a GhostCrawler or Phreak when you announce stuff like this.
I, among many others, are very disappointed in this move.
Everything works as intended. All characters are functional and the MONTHLY LOGIN CHARACTER had to be tested in the raid, no? If everything is working as intended... I get the changes, but why expose? If they nerf certain mechanics, they should nerf the new raid content (lower health, lower boss speeds, lower something )
Personally, I've spent a small fortune into this game (more than a few thousand), and have been supporting this game for a while. EA having the rights to star wars means content for a game is already set for them. This game is inherently fun as a star wars game, but the number one issue is the grind.
If JTR and teams with Rey lead will be the only team to do more than 5 million damage in a single run during the new raid (Tier 6), then there is an issue for the majority of the guilds out there.
my advice: If CG is going to take the Expose advantage away, then they should also lower some Sith Raid stats along with the ST Han hotfix. Easy numerical adjustments -- they don't have to be significant, just enough to say that you made a change... and bring a "Balance" to the damage in the raid.
This will ease the conscience of some players that are on the fence of taking a break/leaving the game because of its "expensive" nature and complete ignorance and dismissal of its community.
TL;DR: Change positively (in the view of players).
Can we back up the truck a bit? STHan is the log in character of the month. Decided by CG. Are we really supposed to believe that in all this "pre-release testing" you forgot to test the character you chose to be the log in character on the same day the raid dropped?
I'm sorry - I love this game, but that is either incredibly inept or incredibly disingenuous. But either way it is EXTREMELY disturbing and disappointing.
"I move for a vote of no confidence." - Padme Amidala
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
Replies
Also can someone fill me in on everything that's happening. I took a nap and it was a sunny day, I come back and this place is on fire.
this pretty much sums up the entire thread...lol
CLS completely destroyed the integrity of Rancor but nothing was done about that. Why nerf JTR on raids? It’s a total slap in the face to everyone who worked their tails off to obtain her and build her up.
summary
Again, @CG_RyDiggs, you are dodging the issue. He specifically mentioned expose. He didn’t mention STH.
Sounds to me like we beat your raid too quickly, I saw in an earlier post by CG that you waited till players had found ways to effectively beat the haat until it wasn’t challenging anymore before working on a new raid to introduce new challenges. Just because we found out ways to effectively beat it in under a week doesn’t mean that every team we care up with needs to be nerfed into the ground in terms of raid effectiveness. This is ridiculous, JTR teams deal big damage from expose? Nope no more expose damage, NS beat traya bc she doesn’t have aoe? Nope buff immunity, SThan gives tm from being hit? Psych not anymore btw now other characters don’t work either. This along with the huge outage for players all day (not just a small % of players like you suggested most people probably just haven’t brought the issue up to you bc they know you won’t do anything more) is unbelievably disappointing and insulting
Clarification please
You stated Could you please share what you mean by many options for managing a raid?
I don't know about your game but mine has 2 options for raids:
1. Start
2. Abandon
Except your now saying those toons you farmed for a specific use can be changed at whim to have no use anymore? I was advised to start farming resistance only to see your nerfing expose this after hundreds of guilds have cleared previoys content and now my guild whos looking to start haat should say forget about it? This only serves the entrenched player base not the new comers to the game and is quite frankly making me wonder if i should cut my losses including all my money ive spent since starting the game
You know, you could have made it so STH gains TM too and he would have popped out of his taunt after 15 attacks. Fixed. A small, simple change, no need to nerf anybody else or change the abilities of 15 characters that respond to damage. Heck, give him double the TM increase so we only get 7 free hits in. With that said, I can totally understand a STH change. I don't understand a few other things though. You should have had a mechanism to deal with NSA and Zombie, a very well known arena combination, via some sort of Traya AoE initially if you were worried about an extra 10 turns from those NS during enrage. Poor planning there. And nerfing RJT is ridiculous. How did you not find that that was the most powerful team during testing? You should have lowered health and increased armor during development, instead you nerf expose and alienate a large section of your player base.
You've already taken a lot of the fun of theorycrafting out of this raid by making the bosses have 1,000,000% tenacity effectively removing the main abilities from half of the character pool. It really feels like this raid is meant for 185M of GP to hit a brick wall until it eventually falls down.
P.S. As someone who has a 7* Visas (and Sion btw), please make it so she heals hurt characters instead of a full health Scavenger Rey over and over.
And like everyone said, adjust the rewards. More input is needed to get the same output. Remove challenge gear, or make (x) pieces of challenge gear a regular part of rewards (like TW) (just not in the boxes).
Cause if that's the case I'm not mad but please bring the JTR event back
It’s like you forget that people have, and are paying you money for things that you just up and change to work differently.
How many character packs have you sold since raid release? How many of those packs are affected by these changes? Do you even consider these points before making changes? My guessed answers; Thousands. Most. No.
All for game balancing but not when customers are continually screwed over on their purchases.
Honestly, if this is true, you shouldn’t be applying nerfs to expose in HAAT. Instead, while you’re introducing new challenging content, old content like HAAT should be becoming more manageable.
Specifically, it should be easy to Solo the HAAT at this point. RJT began to allow us to solo parts of the HAAT but now that team is being nerfed.
We’re spending so much time now, on the sith raid, tw, and Tb. We love all the new content, but something else has got to give. Please either “tweak” the HaAT mechanics or release/rework character that enable players to save time by soloing the haat.
Okay, this is just a lie. There is no regular evaluation (if there is, please let us know what the schedule is). And as for reward adjustments, the rewards have rarely if ever been adjusted for the raids. Even after a year and a half of complaints about receiving worthless challenge gear from the HAAT raid, we still get pieces we have literally thousands of. These "rewards" make no sense.
And this all just goes back to CG's general tone-deafness about changes. Nerfing long-standing bonuses for certain characters is a negative to all players of this game. If you want to get us on board with these changes, you need to provide some positive balance. How about fixing the rewards for the AAT raid? Or, instead of nerfing our toons in Rancor, why not add a new tier where the rancor is immune to these factors, but with better rewards? But instead you just plan to take things away. Again, it makes no sense.
Considering how Sion, a character that's pay to play, is effected by this fix, how are you planning to address the people who bought into this character and his abilities being viable in the new raid? Not to mention the investment in JTR/resistance/etc.
Raid abilities were given, known character abilities are known, I think it's understandable the frustration being expressed here.
It seems like we're being held responsible for poor programing/testing, while it's being waived off as integrity of the raid/etc. People invest time/crystals/gear/etc., they do not expect to have these things waived off at on a whim.
Integrity goes both ways, but is only being held accountable one way. There is a better way to address the storm trooper Han/nightsisters issue without breaking the integrity on so many characters' abilities.
I think it's understandable that this feels like a knee **** reaction, resulting in the exact opposite of integrity.
Really? You regularly evaluate the state of HAAT and Rancor and think challenge gear is still an acceptable reward for heroic tiers? I would love to hear the criteria you use for this regular evaluation of all the raids.
I understand needing to keep the integrity of your content in check and you have a timeline of when people should have Traya, or at least I assume you do. If people bypass that, it needs to be handled, but you don't even congratulate (I may have missed it) that accomplished world's first and beat your content through ingenuity. You just act mad that they played your game, with the tools you gave them. How dare they!? Offer refunds for those that cashed in on a premise of a character working as designed. I wouldn't mind buffs and nerfs, I played LoL competitively for years and loved the buff/nerf cycles. Part of a balanced, fresh game.
You have another opportunity CG/EA to show us you're a company that can be trusted, appreciated and that you like your players. I have played video games all my life for many great developers. Maybe I am wrong for comparing you to Blizzard, Riot, Square, etc. and I need to stop trying to think you're gonna up your game and not expect a GhostCrawler or Phreak when you announce stuff like this.
I appreciate the effort to engage the players, but responses like this come off as so condescending.
99% of people ITT are upset and you’re nitpicking at the precision of one of the more calm, reasonable posts.
If players view it as a nerf, it’s a nerf. If the players think it damages the game, it damages the game. The emperor has no clothes.
I’m never one of those people attacking devs or EA/CG as a whole, but the disconnect caused by coming at this with a top-down view here is upsetting.
Everything works as intended. All characters are functional and the MONTHLY LOGIN CHARACTER had to be tested in the raid, no? If everything is working as intended... I get the changes, but why expose? If they nerf certain mechanics, they should nerf the new raid content (lower health, lower boss speeds, lower something
Personally, I've spent a small fortune into this game (more than a few thousand), and have been supporting this game for a while. EA having the rights to star wars means content for a game is already set for them. This game is inherently fun as a star wars game, but the number one issue is the grind.
If JTR and teams with Rey lead will be the only team to do more than 5 million damage in a single run during the new raid (Tier 6), then there is an issue for the majority of the guilds out there.
my advice: If CG is going to take the Expose advantage away, then they should also lower some Sith Raid stats along with the ST Han hotfix. Easy numerical adjustments -- they don't have to be significant, just enough to say that you made a change... and bring a "Balance" to the damage in the raid.
This will ease the conscience of some players that are on the fence of taking a break/leaving the game because of its "expensive" nature and complete ignorance and dismissal of its community.
TL;DR: Change positively (in the view of players).
I'm sorry - I love this game, but that is either incredibly inept or incredibly disingenuous. But either way it is EXTREMELY disturbing and disappointing.
"I move for a vote of no confidence." - Padme Amidala
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*