Sandbagging is a huge problem in TW

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Since we reached 200 mill gp, we only had sandbaggigng opponents. 18, 20, 26 mill and more is the difference in gp. This isnt fair machmaking. We cant do anything about it. We will not do sandbagging. We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

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  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
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    HJoci30 wrote: »
    We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    So, you choose to report guilds that don't break any rules? Clever.......
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    Waqui wrote: »
    HJoci30 wrote: »
    We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    So, you choose to report guilds that don't break any rules? Clever.......
    They dont play fair. If I say they are cheating the system than this post will be removed in seconds. So Im not saying that.... Right now the guild with full joins are punished. So you get rewarded if you leave out a few members. Sadly in the long run it is beneficial.
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    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    HJoci30 wrote: »
    We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    So, you choose to report guilds that don't break any rules? Clever.......

    No, its really simple. There is a huge need to fix sandbagging and compare guilds based on total gp also not just active registered gp. Easy as that.

    Wrong @Intrapidoo

    Basing on total GP will punish guilds with a member who has a RL commitment that stops them participating in TW.

    The fix is to match on active GP AND number of signed up members. Easy as that.
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    1. That takes 60 seconds.
    2. When has TB and TW run simultaneously in the last 12 months?
    3. Covered by 1
    4. Lots of people don’t participate in GA
    5. Lots of people don’t bother finishing those, just insta forfeit so they get to complete their daily.
    6. Does everyone really participate in every raid? You don’t have a bunch of 0s on your raid leaderboards?

    Our guild do not permit defence only people (if we did half the guild would instantly volunteer). If you’re signing up it’s because you will be available for the attack phase.

    I’m not disputing that sand bagging exists, I’m also not disputing that matchmaking currently disadvantages (sometimes) guilds that have all their members signup.

    What I am disputing is that the solution is to go back to matching on total GP. It is not sensible to suggest a solution that moves the disadvantage to another set of guilds. Surely the best solution disadvantages nobody?
  • Options
    Also if you are in a 200mill+ guild, you most likely arent in a casual guild so missing guild events will result in a kick out.
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    HJoci30 wrote: »
    Also if you are in a 200mill+ guild, you most likely arent in a casual guild so missing guild events will result in a kick out.

    I’m in a 200m+ guild. TW has been optional for some time for us. At least 6 months.

    Signing up so your GP is factored into matchmaking then not contributing is far far worse than not signing up at all.
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    Well, that is an unverifiable and broad statement. The matchmaking originally did use total GP, so sandbagging wasn’t a thing until they changed it.

    It’s not an argument anyway - it’s fact. TW is optional in my and many other guilds. Check the elite guild recruitment posts if you don’t believe me.

    Matching on total GP would be a bad thing, and we should seek the best possible solution instead.
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    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Well, that is an unverifiable and broad statement. The matchmaking originally did use total GP, so sandbagging wasn’t a thing until they changed it.

    It’s not an argument anyway - it’s fact. TW is optional in my and many other guilds. Check the elite guild recruitment posts if you don’t believe me.

    Matching on total GP would be a bad thing, and we should seek the best possible solution instead.

    The best possible solution would be for 1 to stop defending the devs for their screw ups like you do just now.
    After that we should punish guilds that do intentionally sandbag meaning they constantly have lets say above 33% percent rate people not joining and not 1 member but 5-6 which would result in 22-23 teams/territory category. That would mean every guild that leaves out 4-5 member every 3rd tw which is atleast once a month, should receive a punishment. Also another thing would be even when people intentionally leave out massive amounts of members still fill 25 teams.

    Disrespectfully disagree with every single thing in this post.

    I clearly stated that the current matchmaking isn’t fair. I’m merely pointing out that your proposed solution also wouldn’t be fair. If that’s “defending the devs”, then I suspect intelligent debate is not going to be possible.

    Then your whole argument falls down as you go on to reveal the true motive for your suggestion. A spiteful, vengeful act that will punish any and all guilds who allow their members to have a life outside of the game.

    That’s the problem with many of these TW/GA matchmaking whines. People don’t really want “fair” matchmaking. They want matched with guilds / people they can easily beat.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    punishing guilds isn't the sollution.
    I'm not defending matchmaking at all, simply entering with less participants shouldn't be an advantage. My guild has (unintentionally) sandbagged and has been sandbagged often enough for me to feel confident in saying that is unfortunately does give an advantage.
    There's a difference between defending the devs and simply not supporting ridiculous solutions suggested by players who clearly have their own agenda which often is less than noble..
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    Omeah wrote: »
    HJoci30 wrote: »
    Since we reached 200 mill gp, we only had sandbaggigng opponents. 18, 20, 26 mill and more is the difference in gp. This isnt fair machmaking. We cant do anything about it. We will not do sandbagging. We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    HJoci30 How do you determine if someone’s sandbagging? We are a 200+M guild, but we have members who hate TW, so it’s not mandatory. This means only 42-48 people sign up for almost every TW. This is not because we are exploiting, we are simply not forcing members to do stuff they don’t want.

    It doesn't really matter if your guild does it on purpose looking for easier wins or if your guild simply doesn't enforce participation. The end result is the same regardless for the guild you're facing.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    Omeah wrote: »
    leef wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    HJoci30 wrote: »
    Since we reached 200 mill gp, we only had sandbaggigng opponents. 18, 20, 26 mill and more is the difference in gp. This isnt fair machmaking. We cant do anything about it. We will not do sandbagging. We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    HJoci30 How do you determine if someone’s sandbagging? We are a 200+M guild, but we have members who hate TW, so it’s not mandatory. This means only 42-48 people sign up for almost every TW. This is not because we are exploiting, we are simply not forcing members to do stuff they don’t want.

    It doesn't really matter if your guild does it on purpose looking for easier wins or if your guild simply doesn't enforce participation. The end result is the same regardless for the guild you're facing.

    But it matters for us to get reported just because we aren’t forcing people

    You're doing nothing wrong, not even if you intentionally sign up with less players looking for an easier matchup. It's completely within the rules.
    The only difference is that if you're sandbagging intentionally you're lame as heck.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Intrapidoo wrote: »
    Well, that is an unverifiable and broad statement. The matchmaking originally did use total GP, so sandbagging wasn’t a thing until they changed it.

    It’s not an argument anyway - it’s fact. TW is optional in my and many other guilds. Check the elite guild recruitment posts if you don’t believe me.

    Matching on total GP would be a bad thing, and we should seek the best possible solution instead.

    The best possible solution would be for 1 to stop defending the devs for their screw ups like you do just now.
    After that we should punish guilds that do intentionally sandbag meaning they constantly have lets say above 33% percent rate people not joining and not 1 member but 5-6 which would result in 22-23 teams/territory category. That would mean every guild that leaves out 4-5 member every 3rd tw which is atleast once a month, should receive a punishment. Also another thing would be even when people intentionally leave out massive amounts of members still fill 25 teams.

    Disrespectfully disagree with every single thing in this post.

    I clearly stated that the current matchmaking isn’t fair. I’m merely pointing out that your proposed solution also wouldn’t be fair. If that’s “defending the devs”, then I suspect intelligent debate is not going to be possible.

    Then your whole argument falls down as you go on to reveal the true motive for your suggestion. A spiteful, vengeful act that will punish any and all guilds who allow their members to have a life outside of the game.

    That’s the problem with many of these TW/GA matchmaking whines. People don’t really want “fair” matchmaking. They want matched with guilds / people they can easily beat.

    I want to be matched with guilds where its not a stomp or a loss i cannot prevent. Sorry but you said you are sandbagging aka you are abusing the problem, and i for one have lost over 80% of all territory wars due to beeing matched with guilds that shouldnt be in the same bracket(average is over 15-20millio gp,300+ zeta difference,300-600 difference in speed mods, not to mention legendary characters).

    I want an equal matchmaking where my opponent is on the same level and tactics and effectiveness decide the outcome not who left out most people to beat down on a smaller guild. You just dont want your easy tw wins to be gone, thats why you are against anything and everything that would solve the problem.
    No, you’re misreading my posts it would seem.

    We’re not sandbagging - there’s no deliberate plan, it’s entirely up to each guild member whether or not they join. Sometimes we go in full, sometimes we don’t.

    I also want a fairer matchmaking system, so you’re claim that I don’t want easy wins to be gone is also nonsense.
  • Options
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
    edited October 2019
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    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.
    Save water, drink champagne!
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    There's no way I'd consider 45/50 sandbagging. That's ridiculous.

    But 30/50 or 25/50 would definitely fall in my definition of sandbagging.

    80-90% of the rewards may be better than those of a loss, but they're still not 100%. So people who get crushed by sandbaggers at least get a small amount of satisfaction.
  • Options
    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    Yes, but the idea isnt bad. I can see a version of it can work. Sadly until the devs wont do anything about this, we can only hope and making theories of a solution.
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    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    There's no way I'd consider 45/50 sandbagging. That's ridiculous.
    Well, I've experienced other guilds accuse us of sandbagging for signing up with 49 members once. It's all relative, that's why it's the matchmaking that needs to be fixed, not the guild to be punished by depriving rewards.
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    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    There's no way I'd consider 45/50 sandbagging. That's ridiculous.
    Well, I've experienced other guilds accuse us of sandbagging for signing up with 49 members once. It's all relative, that's why it's the matchmaking that needs to be fixed, not the guild to be punished by depriving rewards.

    49/50 participants would receive 100% rewards under my flawless system that I didn't just think of on the fly while writing a comment on instinct.
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    Also sandbagging kills the fun of this mode. I work hard to find a defense that can work properly, but when we get the far more stronger opponents, it doesnt matter. They clear us easily. My guildmates are loosing moral doing TW. It isnt worth the that our otherwise strong guild gets completly destroyed in TW. Our last victory was 2 months ago, when we got a fair matchup. They were a little stronger but we won with tactics and it was fuuuuun! Also if we lost that match still would have been fun. Also it was funny because we know that guild, they are from the same country like us. 😅
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    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    There's no way I'd consider 45/50 sandbagging. That's ridiculous.

    But 30/50 or 25/50 would definitely fall in my definition of sandbagging.

    80-90% of the rewards may be better than those of a loss, but they're still not 100%. So people who get crushed by sandbaggers at least get a small amount of satisfaction.

    45/50 is a huge advantage. 49 is ok, but less than that it isnt.
  • Waqui
    8802 posts Member
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    HJoci30 wrote: »
    Waqui wrote: »
    HJoci30 wrote: »
    We will report every opponent from now. Devs should at least aknowledge the problem.

    So, you choose to report guilds that don't break any rules? Clever.......
    They dont play fair.

    A. You don't know whether they use sandbagging as a strategy or whether it's just coincidences or that joining TW is voluntary in their guild.
    B. Sandbagging - even if used deliberately as a strategy - doesn't violate any rules at all. Reporting non-cheaters for cheating will simply delay handling the real cases of cheating and won't do any good at all.
  • leef
    13458 posts Member
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    leef wrote: »
    Sandbagging is in the same grey zone category as shard chat mafias. The devs quite literally don't care about either and neither is technically cheating.

    The easiest way to get rid of sandbagging is to distribute rewards based on the % of active GP in the war.

    90%-100% active GP = 100% of rewards
    80%-90% active GP = 90% of rewards
    70%-80% active GP = 80% of rewards
    ... and so on

    Sandbaggers would end up with 30-40% of their rewards. They'd be furious and you'd suddenly see FULL guild participation after one or two TWs.

    Heck, with the above formula, it would be possible for a full participation losing guild to get better rewards than the Sandbaggers. I guess everyone would win in that situation.

    you do realize that 80/90% of the rewards for a win is still more than the rewards for a loss right?
    Not just that, singing up with 45 is 90% of the guild, but definetely gets you easier matches and will be considered sandbagging by the opposing gulid.

    There's no way I'd consider 45/50 sandbagging. That's ridiculous.

    But 30/50 or 25/50 would definitely fall in my definition of sandbagging.

    80-90% of the rewards may be better than those of a loss, but they're still not 100%. So people who get crushed by sandbaggers at least get a small amount of satisfaction.

    I can tell you from personal experience (from both sides) that signing up with 45-47 members works like a charm.
    Save water, drink champagne!
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