Wow! Just checked the meta report.See is a “GL” and he is not even on there. There are very few of them. If that does not tell you how trash this character is then idk what does. No one use the he is new excuse because Jml is up there.As I have said before they tried too hard to make these Gls on “parr” with the others but all they did was make a glorified legendary character whose requirements are a Gls.
There are 2057 GL Luke and 270 GL SEE on swgoh.gg (14489 Rey and 13989 Kylo). So it's totally expected that SEE is not on the meta report, however powerful/weak he may be.
Edit: however, there are 254 Luke on rank 1 team, so 12%, and 14 Palp, so 5%. So he is under-represented, but the numbers are so low it's hard to draw conclusions.
On a different note, it also shows that requirements for GL Luke were not that bad compared to SEE, apparently.
The conclusions are:
-he’s not reliable on offense in arena and downright bad on defense.
- he’s not good in arena so fewer people are farming him
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
I mean... SEE was meh and underwhelming in p1 DSTB today... would of rather had any other sith lead. sure it was a 4/4... but eh. damage ****
tbh, soloing HSTR, depending on guild is basically the best rewards in the game, even without arena crystals.
Arena crystals are the best reward in the game because there's no RNG involved with them.
Furthermore, you can't buy them from a shop (unless you're a spender) or farm them from a table.
Agreed. Which is why, if there is a day when there is a significant shift from arenas to GAC for primary crystal acquisition - that will be the day I hang up my light saber.
There have been several things that have frustrated me about this game, but that would be the only one that would truly make me consider quitting.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
While I think LSTB is a primary reason for pretty much everyone getting a GL, I do not think it's worth drawing any conclusions at this point. Who is going to unlock GLs first? Whales, krakens, ppl who've been playing the game for 4+ years. Who were the requirements practically tailored for them to easily obtain? JML. I also think that if you asked every GLEE owner why they got GLEE, the number 1 answer would not be because they thought he would dominate in arena. I know of at least one person who is a collector at his core; he doesn't care what's going to get him 1st in arena (and with shard chats, it's not really that important is it?) he just wants all of the toons. I'd wager there's alot of ppl like him. And he's not complained about GLEE yet. Tricky to get used to but fun to play was what he said to me when I asked about his experience with him.
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
While I think LSTB is a primary reason for pretty much everyone getting a GL, I do not think it's worth drawing any conclusions at this point. Who is going to unlock GLs first? Whales, krakens, ppl who've been playing the game for 4+ years. Who were the requirements practically tailored for them to easily obtain? JML. I also think that if you asked every GLEE owner why they got GLEE, the number 1 answer would not be because they thought he would dominate in arena. I know of at least one person who is a collector at his core; he doesn't care what's going to get him 1st in arena (and with shard chats, it's not really that important is it?) he just wants all of the toons. I'd wager there's alot of ppl like him. And he's not complained about GLEE yet. Tricky to get used to but fun to play was what he said to me when I asked about his experience with him.
I am an ultimate see owner. I got him because I expected him to be great at something. I’ve fought over 100 arena battles with him on about as many team comps. I’ve tried him in raids, tw, tb, etc. he just isn’t worth the resources in his present form.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
While I think LSTB is a primary reason for pretty much everyone getting a GL, I do not think it's worth drawing any conclusions at this point. Who is going to unlock GLs first? Whales, krakens, ppl who've been playing the game for 4+ years. Who were the requirements practically tailored for them to easily obtain? JML. I also think that if you asked every GLEE owner why they got GLEE, the number 1 answer would not be because they thought he would dominate in arena. I know of at least one person who is a collector at his core; he doesn't care what's going to get him 1st in arena (and with shard chats, it's not really that important is it?) he just wants all of the toons. I'd wager there's alot of ppl like him. And he's not complained about GLEE yet. Tricky to get used to but fun to play was what he said to me when I asked about his experience with him.
I am an ultimate see owner. I got him because I expected him to be great at something. I’ve fought over 100 arena battles with him on about as many team comps. I’ve tried him in raids, tw, tb, etc. he just isn’t worth the resources in his present form.
Agreed to every detail. I have Ultimate SEE myself and he just isn't worth the trash required to get him. Such a waste of resources when you can get amazing rebels, Rebel fighters, 3pchew, and a jedi lead who, while having some issues, is much much better off then SEE
Granted I already had most of SEE reqs so I went for him first... hoping that they wouldn't screw him over like release kylo... and to my non-suprise... they made him worse then release kylo by such a large margin they should remove the GL tag from SEE.
This all sounds about right. I'm happy to farm Piett and gear Vader since he can actually kill SLKR, but I don't feel any rush to buy Piett shipments, nor any rationale for how taking Sid from g7 to R7 would do anything but drain my resources. Eventually a real meta shift will happen--many of the SLKR owners will be in pretty good position to stay on top of the meta, and I don't understand why I would pass up on a similar opportunity and drop all my resources and GP bomb my roster simply because Sidious 2.0 is immune to stuns and dot damage.
It's a fact that you can get bad rewards at any position because of RNG, and it's also a fact that you can farm gear but you can't farm crystals if you don't spend money.
You just like to disagree. It doesn’t make anything that you said untrue.
So that's a reason for a third person to come in and say they disagree with me????
Maybe try not making this about me and discuss the substance of the posts.
Maybe both of us should follow your advice? I’m not the only one discussing others things than the post subject.
I think making the new GLs not better than the previous is good and bad at the same time. Good because the meta isn’t only one character/team but bad for the future. If I can skip the next new thing and still be with a meta team why would I gear up trash characters (darth sidious/krennic/royal guard/CHOLO/ROLO//lando/leia)? So in the future I don’t need to get the new GL, be with a “low” 80 characters GP(so GAC isn’t a problem), get 1st in arena, get 31 stars in DS TB, etc. If they introduced the 4 GLs together O think it would’ve been better
It does give choices. I didn't get the previous GLs so I can get the new ones and not level up their set of trash characters.
And if you look at all of them they all have about 5 trash characters required. So that part is pretty even.
Yes, it’s good to have choices. However it isn’t only good, in my opinion if we can stay if one team for almost one year in top arena can make the game stale. If they shift the meta from the GLs now or soon JML and SEE will loose lot of their value.
It is very doughtful that they will be switching away from GLs, if anything they may release a toon that gives a boost to 1 or 2, but GLs are going to be here to stay for a long time.
Also with GAC and TW, very few toons lose their value right away.
I agree, probably they won’t change the meta soon. That’s, to me, makes the game stale.
GAC and TW are good but be a meta in arena make the team much more valuable than be good at GAC and TW.
The meta is shifting right now, GLs have a longer cycle than previous metas due to the release and ultimate taking time.
When/if they release more toons that push the meta (if they are not GLs) it will happen at a different pace.
I much prefer a rolling meta shift than a stark change.
Sorry? A slkr still get 1st and still meta, they introduced 2 more teams to the meta but Rey and SLKR still in meta and if they don’t release new characters that push SEE and JML to be the only two in the meta we will be with slkr and rey for a year. They included teams they didn’t shift the olds
The previous meta has always lingered to an extent if you tweak your mods or team comp.
A few examples
1. Using gmy with Darth revan against Darth revan with malak teams
2. Using raid han with darth revan to counter gas
3. Ep teams still countering traya with proper mods/strategy.
Putting with in a SLKR team to counter jml is very similar to that. If you contend that SLKR was the previous meta, jml beats that. It doesn't push SLKR completely out. I will bet you that SLKR with sith doesn't hold as well on defense as SLKR with fo did before the new GLs came.
It is a bit more complicated with releasing two teams at a time but as far as arena goes, jml beats the current best comp of SLKR with full fo rather easily. And see beats jml rather easily. Then kylo beats see rather easily. So which team holds best probably depends more on how many have each in your arena shard.
But there are a lot of jmls and few see. So I'm guessing in most shards that jml will hold the best but it'll be easy to climb with see since there will be plenty of jml teams to choose from.
That is still a shift in the meta.
DR with gmy wasn’t meta even if it could win against DR with malak. DR with malak were a meta. Be a counter isn’t be a meta team.
JML on defense doesn’t hold so well as far as I know. I think it because Rey but I don’t really know. But even with JML as a meta team, that until know didn’t take SLKR out of the meta
Darth revan with gmy wasn't meta but Darth revan was. Adding gmy made it still viable when malak came for those without malak.
Just like putting Sith in with SLKR make him viable against jml but not meta on defense.
Sorry but what is your point? We were/are talking about meta. DR with gmy weren’t a meta. Slkr is a meta.
My point is that saying SLKR is still meta because he's still able to climb and do ok may be incorrect.
With a lot of jmls added, slkr won't be meta. But like the other teams, he'll still do ok for awhile. It usually takes two or three meta shifts to fully push a team out of the meta.
The important thing that I say remains. Is good to have SLKR, Rey, JML and SEE as meta and it is bad.
This makes absolutely no sense.
If you can’t see that something can be good and bad at same time I’m sorry. But just to show some examples wine can be good but can be bad, some medicines can cure some diseases but can cause others, well in fact you can die if you drink too much water so even water is good and bad. O2 can be good and bad.
Ok I see your point. The lack of a complete sentence in the part I quoted was throwing me off.
Wow! Just checked the meta report.See is a “GL” and he is not even on there. There are very few of them. If that does not tell you how trash this character is then idk what does. No one use the he is new excuse because Jml is up there.As I have said before they tried too hard to make these Gls on “parr” with the others but all they did was make a glorified legendary character whose requirements are a Gls.
There are 2057 GL Luke and 270 GL SEE on swgoh.gg (14489 Rey and 13989 Kylo). So it's totally expected that SEE is not on the meta report, however powerful/weak he may be.
Edit: however, there are 254 Luke on rank 1 team, so 12%, and 14 Palp, so 5%. So he is under-represented, but the numbers are so low it's hard to draw conclusions.
On a different note, it also shows that requirements for GL Luke were not that bad compared to SEE, apparently.
One of those 14 palps is mine.. and only because I forget to swap back to my SLKR mixed team most the time.
SEE isn't worth it at all.
Also may be worth noting how many of the see owners also got Luke(if that data is available.) I know one on my shard has both. He can take first easily with either. Personal preference or what teams make up a shard would likely determine the choice. For example, my shard has about 5 Lukes last I looked. There are more kylos than that so leaving palps on defense doesn't make a lot of sense. As more Lukes saturate the shard those that have both may choose to put see out.
Just by the way they counter and are countered, I would expect see to lag jml in the meta report.
Wow! Just checked the meta report.See is a “GL” and he is not even on there. There are very few of them. If that does not tell you how trash this character is then idk what does. No one use the he is new excuse because Jml is up there.As I have said before they tried too hard to make these Gls on “parr” with the others but all they did was make a glorified legendary character whose requirements are a Gls.
There are 2057 GL Luke and 270 GL SEE on swgoh.gg (14489 Rey and 13989 Kylo). So it's totally expected that SEE is not on the meta report, however powerful/weak he may be.
Edit: however, there are 254 Luke on rank 1 team, so 12%, and 14 Palp, so 5%. So he is under-represented, but the numbers are so low it's hard to draw conclusions.
On a different note, it also shows that requirements for GL Luke were not that bad compared to SEE, apparently.
The conclusions are:
-he’s not reliable on offense in arena and downright bad on defense.
- he’s not good in arena so fewer people are farming him
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
I would say that the numbers of GLs unlocked doesn't necessarily say anything about how good they are in arena. To have jml or see at this point in time, you pretty much had to make the decision on who to go for before the kit reveal.
If you look at the numbers 6 months from now, it may tell you what you claim. The only factor you listed that was known information when people were making the decisions on which GL to go for was that ls tb is harder. So that one is valid. The number of each unlocked says nothing about how good or bad they are in arena since that was unknown information when people decided to go for a GL.
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
While I think LSTB is a primary reason for pretty much everyone getting a GL, I do not think it's worth drawing any conclusions at this point. Who is going to unlock GLs first? Whales, krakens, ppl who've been playing the game for 4+ years. Who were the requirements practically tailored for them to easily obtain? JML. I also think that if you asked every GLEE owner why they got GLEE, the number 1 answer would not be because they thought he would dominate in arena. I know of at least one person who is a collector at his core; he doesn't care what's going to get him 1st in arena (and with shard chats, it's not really that important is it?) he just wants all of the toons. I'd wager there's alot of ppl like him. And he's not complained about GLEE yet. Tricky to get used to but fun to play was what he said to me when I asked about his experience with him.
I am an ultimate see owner. I got him because I expected him to be great at something. I’ve fought over 100 arena battles with him on about as many team comps. I’ve tried him in raids, tw, tb, etc. he just isn’t worth the resources in his present form.
Agreed to every detail. I have Ultimate SEE myself and he just isn't worth the trash required to get him. Such a waste of resources when you can get amazing rebels, Rebel fighters, 3pchew, and a jedi lead who, while having some issues, is much much better off then SEE
Granted I already had most of SEE reqs so I went for him first... hoping that they wouldn't screw him over like release kylo... and to my non-suprise... they made him worse then release kylo by such a large margin they should remove the GL tag from SEE.
See doesn't require any more trash toons than jml (assuming you include the jkl requirements since that's where they hide the jml trash toons).
Trash toons for see
1. Sideous
2. Maul
3. Krennic
4. Royal Guard
Trash toons for jml
1. Captain han
2. Leia
3. Rolo
4. Lando
There are definitely more good teams you get from jml requirements but that is from the overall more toons required. From a trash toon perspective, they are about equal.
Wow! Just checked the meta report.See is a “GL” and he is not even on there. There are very few of them. If that does not tell you how trash this character is then idk what does. No one use the he is new excuse because Jml is up there.As I have said before they tried too hard to make these Gls on “parr” with the others but all they did was make a glorified legendary character whose requirements are a Gls.
There are 2057 GL Luke and 270 GL SEE on swgoh.gg (14489 Rey and 13989 Kylo). So it's totally expected that SEE is not on the meta report, however powerful/weak he may be.
Edit: however, there are 254 Luke on rank 1 team, so 12%, and 14 Palp, so 5%. So he is under-represented, but the numbers are so low it's hard to draw conclusions.
On a different note, it also shows that requirements for GL Luke were not that bad compared to SEE, apparently.
The conclusions are:
I would say that the numbers of GLs unlocked doesn't necessarily say anything about how good they are in arena. To have jml or see at this point in time, you pretty much had to make the decision on who to go for before the kit reveal.
If you look at the numbers 6 months from now, it may tell you what you claim. The only factor you listed that was known information when people were making the decisions on which GL to go for was that ls tb is harder. So that one is valid. The number of each unlocked says nothing about how good or bad they are in arena since that was unknown information when people decided to go for a GL.
Ok, forget about the numbers of unlocks. Real world experience the conclusions are:
-he’s not reliable on offense in arena and downright bad on defense.
- he’s not good in arena so fewer people are farming him
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
There are people in this thread saying they aren't going to add to the numbers of SEE because he's bad they stopped farming his prerequisites. As of over a week ago, there was enough data to show that he wasn't quite up to the levels he needs to be. He can beat Rey on offense, he can beat JML on offense and struggles mightily vs. Kylo on offense and he is easily beatable by all three on defense. Every other game mode he is lackluster, including Challenge Teir 3 of places of power. I had much better luck with Palp, Vader, Malak, DR, BSF (beat it with all 5 standing). Sith raid? Meh, nothing that many other teams can't do. I did one shot the tank with SEE leading but vader did 75% of the damage. DSTB, easy peasy. 4/4 phase 1 cm but BOTH other sith teams I used (Palp/Vader-others and Sith Empire) did 4/4 considerably easier than See+triumvirate.
He needs some tweaks, I don't think he's trash but compared to the other GL's he is obviously lacking. If he is going to be lurking in the shadows until the ultimate where he is supposed to become an amazing attacker, then he better become nigh unbeatable when he gets to the ultimate and should do 3-4x the damage he does with his basic. He only does max damage against light side, his decieved doesn't work against dark side as efficiently. Thematically this is flat out ****, he decieved everyone.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
Wow! Just checked the meta report.See is a “GL” and he is not even on there. There are very few of them. If that does not tell you how trash this character is then idk what does. No one use the he is new excuse because Jml is up there.As I have said before they tried too hard to make these Gls on “parr” with the others but all they did was make a glorified legendary character whose requirements are a Gls.
There are 2057 GL Luke and 270 GL SEE on swgoh.gg (14489 Rey and 13989 Kylo). So it's totally expected that SEE is not on the meta report, however powerful/weak he may be.
Edit: however, there are 254 Luke on rank 1 team, so 12%, and 14 Palp, so 5%. So he is under-represented, but the numbers are so low it's hard to draw conclusions.
On a different note, it also shows that requirements for GL Luke were not that bad compared to SEE, apparently.
The conclusions are:
I would say that the numbers of GLs unlocked doesn't necessarily say anything about how good they are in arena. To have jml or see at this point in time, you pretty much had to make the decision on who to go for before the kit reveal.
If you look at the numbers 6 months from now, it may tell you what you claim. The only factor you listed that was known information when people were making the decisions on which GL to go for was that ls tb is harder. So that one is valid. The number of each unlocked says nothing about how good or bad they are in arena since that was unknown information when people decided to go for a GL.
Ok, forget about the numbers of unlocks. Real world experience the conclusions are:
-he’s not reliable on offense in arena and downright bad on defense.
- he’s not good in arena so fewer people are farming him
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
There are people in this thread saying they aren't going to add to the numbers of SEE because he's bad they stopped farming his prerequisites. As of over a week ago, there was enough data to show that he wasn't quite up to the levels he needs to be. He can beat Rey on offense, he can beat JML on offense and struggles mightily vs. Kylo on offense and he is easily beatable by all three on defense. Every other game mode he is lackluster, including Challenge Teir 3 of places of power. I had much better luck with Palp, Vader, Malak, DR, BSF (beat it with all 5 standing). Sith raid? Meh, nothing that many other teams can't do. I did one shot the tank with SEE leading but vader did 75% of the damage. DSTB, easy peasy. 4/4 phase 1 cm but BOTH other sith teams I used (Palp/Vader-others and Sith Empire) did 4/4 considerably easier than See+triumvirate.
He needs some tweaks, I don't think he's trash but compared to the other GL's he is obviously lacking. If he is going to be lurking in the shadows until the ultimate where he is supposed to become an amazing attacker, then he better become nigh unbeatable when he gets to the ultimate and should do 3-4x the damage he does with his basic. He only does max damage against light side, his decieved doesn't work against dark side as efficiently. Thematically this is flat out ****, he decieved everyone.
Those criticisms are fair enough. CG is looking into it so he may end up getting a buff. Hard to tell.
I do still think his viability in arena will increase as more jml teams are there climbing and holding with him will become easier.
I have seen jml teams having trouble with him but I don't have either yet so don't have a lot of first hand knowledge. I am always skeptical of videos or people just saying something is bad since there are often a lot of factors that aren't apparent (mods right team comp, ect...).
I do like some of the suggestions I've seen to make him better. Whether they will see the light of day who knows.
I am still going for see ftp and likely won't change based on your arguments. I wasn't terribly worried about places and power or ds tb since I pretty much have ETF nough teams anyway. Though if you count requirements in the utility, taking ep and Vader to r7 definitely made places and power easier. And I expect the same for rebel roundup once I finish piett.
I may not use see in ds tb (though I do want to test him with remaining sith that I may not already use with triumvirate, darth revan, or ep) and see how it goes. Or put him in with one of the teams. But I will definitely use the imp trooper team I get as a bonus since they will work better than bh or ns and not take away from anyone.
It'd be nice if he were better in hstr but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
This. It's absurd. I'm sure there was fear of making "Jedi" or "Sith" too strong after JKR lead, but the meta preceding these GLs is fairly dominated by SLKR, who is a beast of a toon.
JML and SEE owners are tearing their hair out trying to just activate their flaccid ultimates, and being told that maybe they're mods just aren't good enough or something. But this is what an SLKR/SEE owner said when asked why he removed his best offense mods from SEE:
The modding is inconsequential due to his kit being junk. Look at SLK before these two new GLs came out. People bought a meta and could win regardless of mod quality
Simple solution to all these mod naysayers.
Strip off all mods on both teams then run them. Let’s see what those attack numbers look like.
It will look hilarious as SEE hits kylo or rey with old man farts and they are shooting and stabbing him.
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
I'm mainly curious what SEE's value is supposed to be.
He was supposed to be able to get to his ultimate and be a "devastating attacker," but that's not generally the case, and Sith squads are often better attacking without him.
The LS GLs are better in PVP and JML in particular has great performance in the end-game PVE mode, LS CW TB.
SLKR is both a better attacker at the beginning of battle and a better long-term attacker than a post-ultimate SEE, still is great in arena, and solos one of the top reward modes in the game: HSTR.
What is it that Palpatine, a brand-new GL with all his requirements and the prominent role he plays in the movies, is supposed to be great at? IMO this is the main question that CG urgently needs to answer.
I'm mainly curious what SEE's value is supposed to be.
.
What is it that Palpatine, a brand-new GL with all his requirements and the prominent role he plays in the movies, is supposed to be great at? IMO this is the main question that CG urgently needs to answer.
They won't answer because he's not great at anything
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
All of Rey, Kylo, and JML's R7s are great toons.
For SEE, you have to r7 Sidious who is utterly useless trash.
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
All of Rey, Kylo, and JML's R7s are great toons.
For SEE, you have to r7 Sidious who is utterly useless trash.
Rey-with-a-stick and BB8 say hi, both for different reasons.
I saw this relevant post on Reddit that's long but does a good job trying to honestly provide perspective on JML's value.
TLDR, JML was made weak out of fear of jedi becoming too strong, but he was made *too* weak. He's not a good enough leader, but it's tough to have him in the leader slot, even if it sacrifices ultimate. The estimate was that JML contributes to the existing jedi titan squad by about 20%.
The same is true for SEE, whose only squad that has a chance on offense of beating the standard SLKR squad involves EP lead and the GL Palp as a side character pulling far, far less than 20% of the weight. (While this post explains JML's utility in the current meta vs SLKR's opening annihilate, it's noteworthy that SEE doesn't provide anything like this for his squad).
I've had JML for close to two weeks now, and haven't lost a battle against Rey or Kylo yet. I've actually only lost two battles total, and both were mirrors. His team seems pretty good. So what's the problem? Well, to put it succinctly, impact.
I've been using Jedi in arena since JKL released, and once I learned how to mod and play the squad it wasn't too hard to climb to first every day, even dropping down to 80 or 90 overnight. I would always win at least 80% of the time (usually more), the only tough teams were Rey + Jedi and Kylo + Malak, and even those were better than 50/50. So I've played a lot of Jedi vs GL matches is what I'm trying to say, probably over 1000.
Against Kylo, the challenge is that he's programed to always stun GAS first, so it's actually more reliable to take GAS out, even though his damage and cool down increases would make the fight trivial. With a pre-taunting Jedi tank, you could make full use of GAS and basically never lose a battle.
Rey is trickier because the danger with her is the whirlwind deleting one of your damage dealers too early. There's a lot more RNG because you need to blow her up fast or keep her ability blocked, and those don't always work; you're relying on her not resisting debuffs. With a reliable way to keep your attackers alive, Rey battles would be easy.
JML obviously provides both of those things. He pre-taunts (and is immune to stun) so Kylo can't shut GAS down. He takes reduced damage from whirlwind, so even if you can't control Rey perfectly, no one on your team dies. So instead of getting 80%~ consistency, you get 100% (more or less).
Now, it terms of the overall result, that's great. The JML team as a whole performs well, pretty much right where it should be, in fact. The problem is that unlike with other GLs, most of that viability isn't coming from the GL on the team. While JML makes the fight more reliable, without him you still have a clear way to win. Replace him with Bastilla or Old Ben or GK, and you'll still win roughly 8 times out of 10. Compare that to what the other GLs do for their teams. How do you plan to beat a GL team with First Order with no Kylo? You can't. He's 90% of what makes that team viable. Rey is less good, but she still does at least half of what a Rey team does (I can't really talk about SEE because I haven't seen one yet, but kylo fights notwithstanding, he seems to bring a lot to the team). JML does maybe 20%, which, considering it's a 5-man squad, is just about as much as any other character does. It seems obvious that CG knew he went into what was already the third best team in the game, and deliberately made him weaker to compensate for that. The result is that while the final team he is on is relatively balanced, Luke himself provides much less value overall than any of the other GLs.
So there are two questions. One, should he be changed, and two, should you prioritize unlocking him.
As to the first one, in my opinion it's mostly a question of future proofing. As the game stands right now, he's more or less ok, but every new release threatens to shift the balance. A character like Kylo, who is most of a team by himself, threatens to become massively OP any time a non-GL dark side character is released. Luke doesn't. So if CG has no more major non-GL characters planned, then Luke probably doesn't need a buff, but if they do, then he probably does need a buff to increase his personal impact and allow him to maintain his viability long-term. He's so dependent on the rest of his team that if they become outdated, he'll become relatively useless.
As to the second question, should you try to get him, that's up to you. He's the least impactful GL with the highest requirements, so in terms of roster value the other GLs are a better investment. However, he will push a jedi team from great to fantastic, which isn't a huge jump, but can mean something in arena.
Overall, while he is a bit underwhelming I'm not exactly unhappy with him. He just has quite a few frustrating design decisions. Why does the "ultimate tank" have no ability to taunt outside his leadership? Why is he the only GL who can't charge his ultimate passively, meaning he needs to be the leader to get it and it costs you the use of your other abilities to get it? His leadership is clearly an attempt to make something that can replace JKR, except it's objectively worse, so they try to force you to use him as the lead by putting things that should have been in his other abilities (taunt and ultimate charge) in his lead. Why is he the only GL who doesn't have a flashy, high impact ability? Even though his team is good, he leaves a lot to be desired.
Again, these are Galactic Legends. Sure, Jedi and Sith are already strong-ish, but not in the meta that CG created with GLs. Investing in these new GLs is a huge deal for most players, and their value should be clear. Could JML use a little touch-up, considering his struggles being either in or out of lead? And what on earth is the point of SEE? I've been playing for over 3 years and the only Sith released since I started who is close to his lack of relevance to the faction is the newer Sith Trooper (a questionably Sith NPC who happens to also be FO and a staple of SLKR squads!).
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
All of Rey, Kylo, and JML's R7s are great toons.
For SEE, you have to r7 Sidious who is utterly useless trash.
Rey-with-a-stick and BB8 say hi, both for different reasons.
Stick Rey hits like a truck, at r7 can undersize a lot of weaker teams like ewoks or Phoenix if you're in a GAC where your opponent uses them
Bb8 is amazing, necessary for any resistance team and is great with GG too
I see people saying the GL's should be on par with the previous ones, but here is my problem with that. If that is the case, which would be perfectly acceptable, then I believe the cost and commitment should be the same.
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
All of Rey, Kylo, and JML's R7s are great toons.
For SEE, you have to r7 Sidious who is utterly useless trash.
Rey-with-a-stick and BB8 say hi, both for different reasons.
Stick Rey hits like a truck, at r7 can undersize a lot of weaker teams like ewoks or Phoenix if you're in a GAC where your opponent uses them
Bb8 is amazing, necessary for any resistance team and is great with GG too
I guess it depends of the opposition you're used too in GAC and what you have in hand. Weaker teams like Ewoks or Phenix usually get solo'd, and Rey is too squeashy to risk it imo. I barely have a use for her in GAC unfortunately; she's most of the time a luxury in a Res team, but I may not have find optimal use for her.
About BB8, it's not a bad toon, but it's just as good at G13.
If I had the ability to R7 any character on my roster, Scavenger and BB8 would be far away on my list. Matter of personal taste I guess.
If you wich to compare the toons you have to gear up to unlock GL, you need to see the big picture imo. Imo, here are the subpar toons you need to relic for each GL:
Kylo:
Debatable. If you build a strong FO team lead by GL Kylo, you already use the best FO toons (KRU, FOST, Hux, ST). In this case, all the other FO are pretty useless has they form together a pretty weak team.
In you follow this path, then you have 6 subpar FO characters + Old Man Han. So 7 characters.
Rey:
RT (except if the actual loop with Han+Chewie isn't nerfed)
Rey (scavenger)
Resistance Pilot
Poe dameron
Rose Tico
Old Man Chewie
Luke:
Leia
ROLO (Relic'd for JKL)
CHOLO (Relic'd for JKL)
Debatable: Lando, Biggs and Wedge, because Rebel Fighters
Palpalich:
Maul
Sidious
Krennic
Tarkin
Royal Guard
So even if Luke and Palp need more characters to unlock, they make you relic'd less characters that would be a disappointment later on imo.
And veteran players already had geared up characters needed for Luke or Palp, more than for Rey or Kylo, as FO and Res weren't widely popular factions. So it's not necessarely harder to go for the new GL for a part of the swgoh population, even if on paper, the requirements are deeper.
As time will go, it's problably keep getting harder and harder, because players will have more and more characters already relic'd.
Could JML use a little touch-up, considering his struggles being either in or out of lead? And what on earth is the point of SEE?
The post you quoted explains extraordinarily well what is wrong with these GLs.
JML's lead should have been a unique ability to make sure he stays relevant. A tank should never be in the lead given there are abilities in the game (DR's Insanity) to abuse this. It does not feel good at all to have his lead force-fed down your throat. His abilities being limited to Jedis were already enough, they should not have attempted to lock his lead in as well. Otherwise, what's the point in advertising GLs to have wide Light/Dark-side spanning abilities?
On the other GLs, SLKR should have been toned down at the time they released this new set of GLs. His kit as the post says just contains too much of his team's total strength, which makes the whole game revolve around this one overpowered character. If they did that JML would not have to come out with as many anti-AOE, anti-Kylo abilities. Maybe an SLKR nerf is still possible if they vision some new progression and give SLKR a very reduced stat growth.
Last, SEE could have used a little less anti-synergistic design. I don't know what exactly but something that makes him better overall. Again, if SLKR was nerfed that would have made SEE already seem a lot more like an actual GL.
Could JML use a little touch-up, considering his struggles being either in or out of lead? And what on earth is the point of SEE?
The post you quoted explains extraordinarily well what is wrong with these GLs.
JML's lead should have been a unique ability to make sure he stays relevant. A tank should never be in the lead given there are abilities in the game (DR's Insanity) to abuse this. It does not feel good at all to have his lead force-fed down your throat. His abilities being limited to Jedis were already enough, they should not have attempted to lock his lead in as well. Otherwise, what's the point in advertising GLs to have wide Light/Dark-side spanning abilities?
On the other GLs, SLKR should have been toned down at the time they released this new set of GLs. His kit as the post says just contains too much of his team's total strength, which makes the whole game revolve around this one overpowered character. If they did that JML would not have to come out with as many anti-AOE, anti-Kylo abilities. Maybe an SLKR nerf is still possible if they vision some new progression and give SLKR a very reduced stat growth.
Last, SEE could have used a little less anti-synergistic design. I don't know what exactly but something that makes him better overall. Again, if SLKR was nerfed that would have made SEE already seem a lot more like an actual GL.
I'm not going to argue the individual points, but I think this is the whole point.
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements. For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
They were not entirely meant to be meta defining and pushing like previous releases, because the investment for a meta period is too great. Which is why in arena we see mix teams, or team comp changes to deal with another comp. There is much more fluidity due to having the GLs pulling together powerful teams and not needing to be a specific group, but in GAC and TW where they need to be more stand alone they may not be 100% the best as is or can be used to bring up a team that would be "spare parts" to do the work they could not do before.
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements. For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
They were not entirely meant to be meta defining and pushing like previous releases
I wish they explored an "optional lead" with JML as in let the lead be unique but with its given stats halved and add a clause that if JML is in lead then the stats are doubled (eg. JML not lead: +20 speed. JML in lead: +40 speed, like JKR unique). The idea being to give us at least a bit more creative space because JML restricts the other variables so much.
About whether or not they are meta-defining, I can tell from my experience (I have JML) that JML actually does seem meta-defining, and this was probably CG's intention. He is not weak like many people are trying to suggest. JMLs push SLKRs out of favor, forcing their users to look for whatever counter there is.
What is weird though is that JML is a very mod dependent team and if you have a definitive advantage in that you almost get to a situation where SLKRs are more difficult to take out than other JML teams in mirror, which is counter-intuitive. That is what has led me to believe that SLKR's power level might be too high. Without it everything (except for SEE, I guess) would be really well balanced.
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements. For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
They were not entirely meant to be meta defining and pushing like previous releases
I wish they explored an "optional lead" with JML as in let the lead be unique but with its given stats halved and add a clause that if JML is in lead then the stats are doubled (eg. JML not lead: +20 speed. JML in lead: +40 speed, like JKR unique). The idea being to give us at least a bit more creative space because JML restricts the other variables so much.
About whether or not they are meta-defining, I can tell from my experience (I have JML) that JML actually does seem meta-defining, and this was probably CG's intention. He is not weak like many people are trying to suggest. JMLs push SLKRs out of favor, forcing their users to look for whatever counter there is.
What is weird though is that JML is a very mod dependent team and if you have a definitive advantage in that you almost get to a situation where SLKRs are more difficult to take out than other JML teams in mirror, which is counter-intuitive. That is what has led me to believe that SLKR's power level might be too high. Without it everything (except for SEE, I guess) would be really well balanced.
What I mean by meta defining is them coming in like other metas to just push that meta out and define it. JML is doing good in arena, but he will not push SLKR or Rey completely out like other meta shifts have.
They seem pretty balanced, if he was weaker he would probably have more trouble with Rey. SEE seems to be the only outlier of the situation.
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements. For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
Kyno could you clarify this?
This part:
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements.
conflicts with the stated intention that GLs be useful in many different squads involving many different factions. It also conflicts with how Rey, especially, is used, but SLKR as well frequently uses Malak.
Are you trying to say that CG has changed their philosophy on making GL's relevant to a wide range of squad/faction combinations an "these toons" only means JML & SEE? Is there some retraction of the statements CG made with reference to Rey & SLKR about making them useful with a wide range of toons & factions? If true, I missed it.
And this bit:
For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
is a sentence fragment, which wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense in any case, but is particularly confusing in that last word: "one" what?
Replies
I mean... SEE was meh and underwhelming in p1 DSTB today... would of rather had any other sith lead. sure it was a 4/4... but eh. damage ****
Agreed. Which is why, if there is a day when there is a significant shift from arenas to GAC for primary crystal acquisition - that will be the day I hang up my light saber.
There have been several things that have frustrated me about this game, but that would be the only one that would truly make me consider quitting.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
While I think LSTB is a primary reason for pretty much everyone getting a GL, I do not think it's worth drawing any conclusions at this point. Who is going to unlock GLs first? Whales, krakens, ppl who've been playing the game for 4+ years. Who were the requirements practically tailored for them to easily obtain? JML. I also think that if you asked every GLEE owner why they got GLEE, the number 1 answer would not be because they thought he would dominate in arena. I know of at least one person who is a collector at his core; he doesn't care what's going to get him 1st in arena (and with shard chats, it's not really that important is it?) he just wants all of the toons. I'd wager there's alot of ppl like him. And he's not complained about GLEE yet. Tricky to get used to but fun to play was what he said to me when I asked about his experience with him.
I am an ultimate see owner. I got him because I expected him to be great at something. I’ve fought over 100 arena battles with him on about as many team comps. I’ve tried him in raids, tw, tb, etc. he just isn’t worth the resources in his present form.
Agreed to every detail. I have Ultimate SEE myself and he just isn't worth the trash required to get him. Such a waste of resources when you can get amazing rebels, Rebel fighters, 3pchew, and a jedi lead who, while having some issues, is much much better off then SEE
Granted I already had most of SEE reqs so I went for him first... hoping that they wouldn't screw him over like release kylo... and to my non-suprise... they made him worse then release kylo by such a large margin they should remove the GL tag from SEE.
Ok I see your point. The lack of a complete sentence in the part I quoted was throwing me off.
Also may be worth noting how many of the see owners also got Luke(if that data is available.) I know one on my shard has both. He can take first easily with either. Personal preference or what teams make up a shard would likely determine the choice. For example, my shard has about 5 Lukes last I looked. There are more kylos than that so leaving palps on defense doesn't make a lot of sense. As more Lukes saturate the shard those that have both may choose to put see out.
Just by the way they counter and are countered, I would expect see to lag jml in the meta report.
I would say that the numbers of GLs unlocked doesn't necessarily say anything about how good they are in arena. To have jml or see at this point in time, you pretty much had to make the decision on who to go for before the kit reveal.
If you look at the numbers 6 months from now, it may tell you what you claim. The only factor you listed that was known information when people were making the decisions on which GL to go for was that ls tb is harder. So that one is valid. The number of each unlocked says nothing about how good or bad they are in arena since that was unknown information when people decided to go for a GL.
See doesn't require any more trash toons than jml (assuming you include the jkl requirements since that's where they hide the jml trash toons).
Trash toons for see
1. Sideous
2. Maul
3. Krennic
4. Royal Guard
Trash toons for jml
1. Captain han
2. Leia
3. Rolo
4. Lando
There are definitely more good teams you get from jml requirements but that is from the overall more toons required. From a trash toon perspective, they are about equal.
Ok, forget about the numbers of unlocks. Real world experience the conclusions are:
-he’s not reliable on offense in arena and downright bad on defense.
- he’s not good in arena so fewer people are farming him
- DSTB isn’t difficult enough to be a compelling reason to get a DS GL, LSTB is so that is a good reason alone to get JML for some guilds.
There are people in this thread saying they aren't going to add to the numbers of SEE because he's bad they stopped farming his prerequisites. As of over a week ago, there was enough data to show that he wasn't quite up to the levels he needs to be. He can beat Rey on offense, he can beat JML on offense and struggles mightily vs. Kylo on offense and he is easily beatable by all three on defense. Every other game mode he is lackluster, including Challenge Teir 3 of places of power. I had much better luck with Palp, Vader, Malak, DR, BSF (beat it with all 5 standing). Sith raid? Meh, nothing that many other teams can't do. I did one shot the tank with SEE leading but vader did 75% of the damage. DSTB, easy peasy. 4/4 phase 1 cm but BOTH other sith teams I used (Palp/Vader-others and Sith Empire) did 4/4 considerably easier than See+triumvirate.
He needs some tweaks, I don't think he's trash but compared to the other GL's he is obviously lacking. If he is going to be lurking in the shadows until the ultimate where he is supposed to become an amazing attacker, then he better become nigh unbeatable when he gets to the ultimate and should do 3-4x the damage he does with his basic. He only does max damage against light side, his decieved doesn't work against dark side as efficiently. Thematically this is flat out ****, he decieved everyone.
Those criticisms are fair enough. CG is looking into it so he may end up getting a buff. Hard to tell.
I do still think his viability in arena will increase as more jml teams are there climbing and holding with him will become easier.
I have seen jml teams having trouble with him but I don't have either yet so don't have a lot of first hand knowledge. I am always skeptical of videos or people just saying something is bad since there are often a lot of factors that aren't apparent (mods right team comp, ect...).
I do like some of the suggestions I've seen to make him better. Whether they will see the light of day who knows.
I am still going for see ftp and likely won't change based on your arguments. I wasn't terribly worried about places and power or ds tb since I pretty much have ETF nough teams anyway. Though if you count requirements in the utility, taking ep and Vader to r7 definitely made places and power easier. And I expect the same for rebel roundup once I finish piett.
I may not use see in ds tb (though I do want to test him with remaining sith that I may not already use with triumvirate, darth revan, or ep) and see how it goes. Or put him in with one of the teams. But I will definitely use the imp trooper team I get as a bonus since they will work better than bh or ns and not take away from anyone.
It'd be nice if he were better in hstr but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.
SLKR & Rey - 3 R7, 7 R5, 2 R3
SEE - 5 R7, 2 R6, 2 R4, 1 R5, 4 R3 + 1 ship 6*
JML - 3 R7, 2 R6, 6 R5, 3 R3 + 1 ship 6*
So why would they be on the same playing field....like even remotely? Am I the only one that see's this and says "Two of these aren't like the others?". Then look at SEE...FIVE.....5....cinco..... Relic 7 toons required....and you think he's performing as intended? It's an absolute joke in it's current state and a spit in the face to anyone who farmed him. I'm probably a week away from unlocking him and if I wasn't so pot comitted as a gambler would say I'd have folded already.
JML and SEE owners are tearing their hair out trying to just activate their flaccid ultimates, and being told that maybe they're mods just aren't good enough or something. But this is what an SLKR/SEE owner said when asked why he removed his best offense mods from SEE:
Strip off all mods on both teams then run them. Let’s see what those attack numbers look like.
It will look hilarious as SEE hits kylo or rey with old man farts and they are shooting and stabbing him.
I think you need to look at more than just the total requirements to compare the cost and the perceived value you need to get.
Yes see requires 5 R7s. But 3 of them are ep, vader, and jka. Those 3 are all toons that I have no issues taking to r7 (even without them being needed for a gl) since they are amazing toons on their own. And if you run with empire sith marauder is pretty good too.
I think it is far more comparable to compare the toons that you have to relic that have limited use or no use. And when you do that, there are around five toons for each GL, that really don't add a lot (though I have managed to slip sideous, maul, and rg into teams in geo tb and still go 4 for 4.)
He was supposed to be able to get to his ultimate and be a "devastating attacker," but that's not generally the case, and Sith squads are often better attacking without him.
The LS GLs are better in PVP and JML in particular has great performance in the end-game PVE mode, LS CW TB.
SLKR is both a better attacker at the beginning of battle and a better long-term attacker than a post-ultimate SEE, still is great in arena, and solos one of the top reward modes in the game: HSTR.
What is it that Palpatine, a brand-new GL with all his requirements and the prominent role he plays in the movies, is supposed to be great at? IMO this is the main question that CG urgently needs to answer.
They won't answer because he's not great at anything
All of Rey, Kylo, and JML's R7s are great toons.
For SEE, you have to r7 Sidious who is utterly useless trash.
Rey-with-a-stick and BB8 say hi, both for different reasons.
TLDR, JML was made weak out of fear of jedi becoming too strong, but he was made *too* weak. He's not a good enough leader, but it's tough to have him in the leader slot, even if it sacrifices ultimate. The estimate was that JML contributes to the existing jedi titan squad by about 20%.
The same is true for SEE, whose only squad that has a chance on offense of beating the standard SLKR squad involves EP lead and the GL Palp as a side character pulling far, far less than 20% of the weight. (While this post explains JML's utility in the current meta vs SLKR's opening annihilate, it's noteworthy that SEE doesn't provide anything like this for his squad).
Again, these are Galactic Legends. Sure, Jedi and Sith are already strong-ish, but not in the meta that CG created with GLs. Investing in these new GLs is a huge deal for most players, and their value should be clear. Could JML use a little touch-up, considering his struggles being either in or out of lead? And what on earth is the point of SEE? I've been playing for over 3 years and the only Sith released since I started who is close to his lack of relevance to the faction is the newer Sith Trooper (a questionably Sith NPC who happens to also be FO and a staple of SLKR squads!).
Stick Rey hits like a truck, at r7 can undersize a lot of weaker teams like ewoks or Phoenix if you're in a GAC where your opponent uses them
Bb8 is amazing, necessary for any resistance team and is great with GG too
I guess it depends of the opposition you're used too in GAC and what you have in hand. Weaker teams like Ewoks or Phenix usually get solo'd, and Rey is too squeashy to risk it imo. I barely have a use for her in GAC unfortunately; she's most of the time a luxury in a Res team, but I may not have find optimal use for her.
About BB8, it's not a bad toon, but it's just as good at G13.
If I had the ability to R7 any character on my roster, Scavenger and BB8 would be far away on my list. Matter of personal taste I guess.
If you wich to compare the toons you have to gear up to unlock GL, you need to see the big picture imo. Imo, here are the subpar toons you need to relic for each GL:
Kylo:
Debatable. If you build a strong FO team lead by GL Kylo, you already use the best FO toons (KRU, FOST, Hux, ST). In this case, all the other FO are pretty useless has they form together a pretty weak team.
In you follow this path, then you have 6 subpar FO characters + Old Man Han. So 7 characters.
Rey:
RT (except if the actual loop with Han+Chewie isn't nerfed)
Rey (scavenger)
Resistance Pilot
Poe dameron
Rose Tico
Old Man Chewie
Luke:
Leia
ROLO (Relic'd for JKL)
CHOLO (Relic'd for JKL)
Debatable: Lando, Biggs and Wedge, because Rebel Fighters
Palpalich:
Maul
Sidious
Krennic
Tarkin
Royal Guard
So even if Luke and Palp need more characters to unlock, they make you relic'd less characters that would be a disappointment later on imo.
And veteran players already had geared up characters needed for Luke or Palp, more than for Rey or Kylo, as FO and Res weren't widely popular factions. So it's not necessarely harder to go for the new GL for a part of the swgoh population, even if on paper, the requirements are deeper.
As time will go, it's problably keep getting harder and harder, because players will have more and more characters already relic'd.
The post you quoted explains extraordinarily well what is wrong with these GLs.
JML's lead should have been a unique ability to make sure he stays relevant. A tank should never be in the lead given there are abilities in the game (DR's Insanity) to abuse this. It does not feel good at all to have his lead force-fed down your throat. His abilities being limited to Jedis were already enough, they should not have attempted to lock his lead in as well. Otherwise, what's the point in advertising GLs to have wide Light/Dark-side spanning abilities?
On the other GLs, SLKR should have been toned down at the time they released this new set of GLs. His kit as the post says just contains too much of his team's total strength, which makes the whole game revolve around this one overpowered character. If they did that JML would not have to come out with as many anti-AOE, anti-Kylo abilities. Maybe an SLKR nerf is still possible if they vision some new progression and give SLKR a very reduced stat growth.
Last, SEE could have used a little less anti-synergistic design. I don't know what exactly but something that makes him better overall. Again, if SLKR was nerfed that would have made SEE already seem a lot more like an actual GL.
I'm not going to argue the individual points, but I think this is the whole point.
These toons are meant to be powerful, but faction specific improvements. For general improvements and helping to push each particular one.
They were not entirely meant to be meta defining and pushing like previous releases, because the investment for a meta period is too great. Which is why in arena we see mix teams, or team comp changes to deal with another comp. There is much more fluidity due to having the GLs pulling together powerful teams and not needing to be a specific group, but in GAC and TW where they need to be more stand alone they may not be 100% the best as is or can be used to bring up a team that would be "spare parts" to do the work they could not do before.
just a thought.
I wish they explored an "optional lead" with JML as in let the lead be unique but with its given stats halved and add a clause that if JML is in lead then the stats are doubled (eg. JML not lead: +20 speed. JML in lead: +40 speed, like JKR unique). The idea being to give us at least a bit more creative space because JML restricts the other variables so much.
About whether or not they are meta-defining, I can tell from my experience (I have JML) that JML actually does seem meta-defining, and this was probably CG's intention. He is not weak like many people are trying to suggest. JMLs push SLKRs out of favor, forcing their users to look for whatever counter there is.
What is weird though is that JML is a very mod dependent team and if you have a definitive advantage in that you almost get to a situation where SLKRs are more difficult to take out than other JML teams in mirror, which is counter-intuitive. That is what has led me to believe that SLKR's power level might be too high. Without it everything (except for SEE, I guess) would be really well balanced.
What I mean by meta defining is them coming in like other metas to just push that meta out and define it. JML is doing good in arena, but he will not push SLKR or Rey completely out like other meta shifts have.
They seem pretty balanced, if he was weaker he would probably have more trouble with Rey. SEE seems to be the only outlier of the situation.
At G13 sure. R7 is a total waste.
Kyno could you clarify this?
This part:
conflicts with the stated intention that GLs be useful in many different squads involving many different factions. It also conflicts with how Rey, especially, is used, but SLKR as well frequently uses Malak.
Are you trying to say that CG has changed their philosophy on making GL's relevant to a wide range of squad/faction combinations an "these toons" only means JML & SEE? Is there some retraction of the statements CG made with reference to Rey & SLKR about making them useful with a wide range of toons & factions? If true, I missed it.
And this bit:
is a sentence fragment, which wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense in any case, but is particularly confusing in that last word: "one" what?