And before anyone points out the obvious "Oh stop comparing his damage to SLKR, it's probably 3v3 so the mastery gain will obviously be lower than it would be normally" : This is post ult (Devastating attacker) and after 3+ minutes, and just shows the obvious flaw in this game mode of passive mastery gain. SLKR's advantage of active siphoning is huge, this is a fact, but the problem with this is that in no other game mode does SEE achieve much higher damage than in this. Hence me saying he may be the highest damage SEE I've ever seen: He's critting for 100k on a beefy defense and protection JML with only 3 minutes of 3v3 mastery gain on his side. And with Wat being dark side, he's got a disadvantage on half of his deceived tricks and such.
On top of that, JML is having 30% damage reduction, but SEE has huge anti-Jedi bonuses in his kit so it should relatively even out and he's still dealing almost as much damage as any other SEE I've ever seen.
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
Considering SLKR and Rey both have moves that do that without having an instakill built into the move, and JML now has a nuke comp that accomplishes much the same thing, I don't think that makes him special. On top of the cooldown, the ridiculous limitations on ult charge, and the fact that post ult his damage is sub-par (making him devastating for all of one turn in a 5 minute round), it only works if anyone is linked which limits him further.
He's not special, all of the GL's can do this, he needs the crutch of an insta-kill built into the move or he'd probably barely slap people. That's all it is, a crutch. It doesn't buff his basic damage, which is the only move he can use for 22 turns post-ult, so it hardly makes him a devastating attacker. Maybe a natural disaster like a one-time tornado ripping through, but after that anyone who's still alive will mop the floor with him. Especially since it barely tickles the other GL's at all.
It is, once every 22 turns, assuming you get to that point to begin with.
Most of the videos I have seen, some in this thread, SEE is getting 2 or possibly more uses of that ability. If you are not getting to that point, there are probably some team comp and mod changes that could be made to help.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
It is, once every 22 turns, assuming you get to that point to begin with.
Most of the videos I have seen, some in this thread, SEE is getting 2 or possibly more uses of that ability. If you are not getting to that point, there are probably some team comp and mod changes that could be made to help.
That doesn't help against solo's or teams riddled with dark side characters that don't get deceived as easily. His ult charging in the first place requires a niche encounter, but it does happen. Getting it to happen a second time takes a miracle. Hitting a deceived enemy reduces cooldown by one, meaning even if you only hit an enemy who was deceived before the ult is used (because you have no way to apply deceive post-ult) it still takes 10 turns to crank it off a second time.
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
Yes, we can call it a devastating attack, speaking in technical terms. Does this make SEE stand out? No. Rey can attack devastatingly, SLKR can do it, JML too. Even GAS can in the right setting. But these other devastating attackers are not limited to Jedi opponents only or something like that. And if you link a GL for strategy reasons you can end up killing only 1 toon, especially against Rey with her bonus protection that counters the AoE.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
They are aware of the WAT, JML, Bastilla combo, and while it is working as it should, they are not entirely happy with the way that is working.
But let's not act like this setup is completely without some ability to work around.
Since we're doing all of the leg-work in research here, I'd like you to point out the way to work around it. We've been gathering evidence, go ahead and counter with yours
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
Possible solution if you cant come up with one of the many squads that beat SEE and want your JML to do the job
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
I agree with this, when I do get to use the Ultimate AoE it almost always kills everyone but the other GL +1, so at least that part is devastating. It's just very hard to seal the deal after that. You just sit there a spam your basic, which is pretty boring, low damage, and not great design. At least the other GL's still have all their abilities to use.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
Possible solution if you cant come up with one of the many squads that beat SEE and want your JML to beat SEE
Possible but highly unlikely. To avoid Efflux blocking all of SEE's utility, you'd need to mod everyone on SEE's side for Tenacity. Which then means Wat outspeeds Han easily after the bonus turn.
They are aware of the WAT, JML, Bastilla combo, and while it is working as it should, they are not entirely happy with the way that is working.
But let's not act like this setup is completely without some ability to work around.
Since we're doing all of the leg-work in research here, I'd like you to point out the way to work around it. We've been gathering evidence, go ahead and counter with yours
I have no counter for a video that doesnt provide any details and is only here to be misleading.
They are aware of the WAT, JML, Bastilla combo, and while it is working as it should, they are not entirely happy with the way that is working.
But let's not act like this setup is completely without some ability to work around.
Since we're doing all of the leg-work in research here, I'd like you to point out the way to work around it. We've been gathering evidence, go ahead and counter with yours
I have no counter for a video that doesnt provide any details and is only here to be misleading.
It provides the details of Wat being there and Bastila being lead, what do you mean "doesn't provide any details?"
Also saying modding or Han would help is minimally helpful at best regardless of the circumstances of the JML team cuz we know from his Prot recovery that he had god mods on that team, and we know from the tech that Wat was there. So nothing would've changed that outcome short of Han killing Wat on the first turn. Which is a big ask considering Han doesn't do a ton of damage without Chewie and I also forget Bastila lead gives JML taunt at the start so if Han doesn't kill on bonus turn one, no one can get to Wat at all
It is, once every 22 turns, assuming you get to that point to begin with.
Most of the videos I have seen, some in this thread, SEE is getting 2 or possibly more uses of that ability. If you are not getting to that point, there are probably some team comp and mod changes that could be made to help.
That doesn't help against solo's or teams riddled with dark side characters that don't get deceived as easily. His ult charging in the first place requires a niche encounter, but it does happen. Getting it to happen a second time takes a miracle. Hitting a deceived enemy reduces cooldown by one, meaning even if you only hit an enemy who was deceived before the ult is used (because you have no way to apply deceive post-ult) it still takes 10 turns to crank it off a second time.
Ok, so there are strategies to making teams that are hard for SEE to beat..... I'm not sure what is wrong with that. Just like each of the other GLs.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
You could use JKR while Wat is still stunned and with GAS and JKL in the squad you could kill Wat before he takes a turn.
Edit: I misunderstood. Its about the Wat that goes with JML. One could run run a SEE squad that kills Wat before he takes a turn but it wouldn’t makes sense for other reasons: SEE, JKR, GAS, JKL, Han. The Wat-killer SEE squad
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
You could use JKR while Wat is still stunned and with GAS and JKL in the squad you could kill Wat before he takes a turn.
Wat would only be stunned for his bonus turn, and JML would go before anyone else on either side. Meaning you'd either have to mod for Tenacity to avoid stuns and AB's, or you'd have to outmod the fastest Wat's which hit 371 speed. And outspeeding Wat won't help if you're stunned or AB'd and get stuck behind JML taunt due to Bastila lead.
So an interesting idea, but no it wouldn't change anything.
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
1 year ago, I'd say yes. But in the current Meta, no, definitely not.
Rey and Kylo's AOEs can wipe out an entire team, they get to use them much quicker, and multiple times. We've even seen video evidence of JML wiping out an entire team too with the Jericho squad comp.
SEE's ultimate AoE takes longer to use, can be used only once realistically (twice if extremely lucky), only insta kills 2 linked heros (not an entire team). Yeah, it can wipe out an entire team of Jedi sometimes, but that's it. Rey and Kylo don't discriminate.
As it stands now, SEE is the worst attacker of the 4 GLs, so to call him devastating is a joke, unless you are comparing him to non-GLs.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Han also removes some TM... not sure how that interacts with Wat’s Bonus Turn. Still a problem.
True but so does JML efflux, and if he applies breach it also cuts speed -25%. So there's still not really a huge debate. Wat would outspeed unless the team was modded to avoid the effects of Efflux, at which point they still have to then work through JML taunt and a 370 Wat potentially.
And efflux gives turn meter to Jedi, like Bastila, who has a dispel which would just get Wat out of stun faster since Han could hit twice for a potentially 70% tm removal allowing Bastila to go before Wat recovers all the tm. So unless Bastila is also neutralized or Wat dies in one turn, Wat will always get the tech off.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
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And before anyone points out the obvious "Oh stop comparing his damage to SLKR, it's probably 3v3 so the mastery gain will obviously be lower than it would be normally" : This is post ult (Devastating attacker) and after 3+ minutes, and just shows the obvious flaw in this game mode of passive mastery gain. SLKR's advantage of active siphoning is huge, this is a fact, but the problem with this is that in no other game mode does SEE achieve much higher damage than in this. Hence me saying he may be the highest damage SEE I've ever seen: He's critting for 100k on a beefy defense and protection JML with only 3 minutes of 3v3 mastery gain on his side. And with Wat being dark side, he's got a disadvantage on half of his deceived tricks and such.
On top of that, JML is having 30% damage reduction, but SEE has huge anti-Jedi bonuses in his kit so it should relatively even out and he's still dealing almost as much damage as any other SEE I've ever seen.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
Please let us all know if you do not consider an AOE that insta kills 2 opponent toons and deals damage to everyone else, a "devastating attack". Sure his basic could use a little boost in damage after ult, but that is a devastating attacker.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
Considering SLKR and Rey both have moves that do that without having an instakill built into the move, and JML now has a nuke comp that accomplishes much the same thing, I don't think that makes him special. On top of the cooldown, the ridiculous limitations on ult charge, and the fact that post ult his damage is sub-par (making him devastating for all of one turn in a 5 minute round), it only works if anyone is linked which limits him further.
He's not special, all of the GL's can do this, he needs the crutch of an insta-kill built into the move or he'd probably barely slap people. That's all it is, a crutch. It doesn't buff his basic damage, which is the only move he can use for 22 turns post-ult, so it hardly makes him a devastating attacker. Maybe a natural disaster like a one-time tornado ripping through, but after that anyone who's still alive will mop the floor with him. Especially since it barely tickles the other GL's at all.
Most of the videos I have seen, some in this thread, SEE is getting 2 or possibly more uses of that ability. If you are not getting to that point, there are probably some team comp and mod changes that could be made to help.
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
But let's not act like this setup is completely without some ability to work around.
That doesn't help against solo's or teams riddled with dark side characters that don't get deceived as easily. His ult charging in the first place requires a niche encounter, but it does happen. Getting it to happen a second time takes a miracle. Hitting a deceived enemy reduces cooldown by one, meaning even if you only hit an enemy who was deceived before the ult is used (because you have no way to apply deceive post-ult) it still takes 10 turns to crank it off a second time.
Yes, we can call it a devastating attack, speaking in technical terms. Does this make SEE stand out? No. Rey can attack devastatingly, SLKR can do it, JML too. Even GAS can in the right setting. But these other devastating attackers are not limited to Jedi opponents only or something like that. And if you link a GL for strategy reasons you can end up killing only 1 toon, especially against Rey with her bonus protection that counters the AoE.
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
Since we're doing all of the leg-work in research here, I'd like you to point out the way to work around it. We've been gathering evidence, go ahead and counter with yours
Possible solution if you cant come up with one of the many squads that beat SEE and want your JML to do the job
I agree with this, when I do get to use the Ultimate AoE it almost always kills everyone but the other GL +1, so at least that part is devastating. It's just very hard to seal the deal after that. You just sit there a spam your basic, which is pretty boring, low damage, and not great design. At least the other GL's still have all their abilities to use.
Possible but highly unlikely. To avoid Efflux blocking all of SEE's utility, you'd need to mod everyone on SEE's side for Tenacity. Which then means Wat outspeeds Han easily after the bonus turn.
I have no counter for a video that doesnt provide any details and is only here to be misleading.
It provides the details of Wat being there and Bastila being lead, what do you mean "doesn't provide any details?"
Also saying modding or Han would help is minimally helpful at best regardless of the circumstances of the JML team cuz we know from his Prot recovery that he had god mods on that team, and we know from the tech that Wat was there. So nothing would've changed that outcome short of Han killing Wat on the first turn. Which is a big ask considering Han doesn't do a ton of damage without Chewie and I also forget Bastila lead gives JML taunt at the start so if Han doesn't kill on bonus turn one, no one can get to Wat at all
Ok, so there are strategies to making teams that are hard for SEE to beat..... I'm not sure what is wrong with that. Just like each of the other GLs.
(Not saying he doesnt need a touch up)
You could use JKR while Wat is still stunned and with GAS and JKL in the squad you could kill Wat before he takes a turn.
Edit: I misunderstood. Its about the Wat that goes with JML. One could run run a SEE squad that kills Wat before he takes a turn but it wouldn’t makes sense for other reasons: SEE, JKR, GAS, JKL, Han. The Wat-killer SEE squad
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Wat would only be stunned for his bonus turn, and JML would go before anyone else on either side. Meaning you'd either have to mod for Tenacity to avoid stuns and AB's, or you'd have to outmod the fastest Wat's which hit 371 speed. And outspeeding Wat won't help if you're stunned or AB'd and get stuck behind JML taunt due to Bastila lead.
So an interesting idea, but no it wouldn't change anything.
1 year ago, I'd say yes. But in the current Meta, no, definitely not.
Rey and Kylo's AOEs can wipe out an entire team, they get to use them much quicker, and multiple times. We've even seen video evidence of JML wiping out an entire team too with the Jericho squad comp.
SEE's ultimate AoE takes longer to use, can be used only once realistically (twice if extremely lucky), only insta kills 2 linked heros (not an entire team). Yeah, it can wipe out an entire team of Jedi sometimes, but that's it. Rey and Kylo don't discriminate.
As it stands now, SEE is the worst attacker of the 4 GLs, so to call him devastating is a joke, unless you are comparing him to non-GLs.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
True but so does JML efflux, and if he applies breach it also cuts speed -25%. So there's still not really a huge debate. Wat would outspeed unless the team was modded to avoid the effects of Efflux, at which point they still have to then work through JML taunt and a 370 Wat potentially.
And efflux gives turn meter to Jedi, like Bastila, who has a dispel which would just get Wat out of stun faster since Han could hit twice for a potentially 70% tm removal allowing Bastila to go before Wat recovers all the tm. So unless Bastila is also neutralized or Wat dies in one turn, Wat will always get the tech off.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.