My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
...
But two step brought up a good point above me. There was a bug that ramped up the damage per run, not globally. Many want that as the solution. If it was a “bug” but possible to make as the norm, why not revert the “bug” and change that coding so the damage ramps per run which would still prevent overall solos as was the intention and also removes the insane coordination requirements....
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
*cough* LS Geo TB *cough*
You don't get rewards in raids for clearing three phases.
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
Im curious to know what is the size of the Beta testing program? Are you interested in expanding it to, as Ravens said, to include theory crafters and game-changers or maybe even more everyday players?
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
*cough* LS Geo TB *cough*
You don't get rewards in raids for clearing three phases.
Sure, it wasn't entirely serious. But releasing something that is straight-up impossible to clear isn't completely unprecedented.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
*cough* LS Geo TB *cough*
You don't get rewards in raids for clearing three phases.
Sure, it wasn't entirely serious. But releasing something that is straight-up impossible to clear isn't completely unprecedented.
but that comparison is in no way equal. So no that is not a precedent that has been set for raids.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
Honestly I am interested in how this raid was tested. This is not me trying to say you guys didn't do your job or anything like that, but I am sincerely curious about the proces in general and for this raid specifically.
I simply do not understand how this raid was intended to be cleared, if not with a coordinated damage dump.
I've only really contended with the less than 20% health in P4, so other phases might be sligthly more manageable (though I doubt it) but there optimal zerg teams might be able to do 0.5-0.75% damage. With a total of 80% health to be cleared under these conditions, and a bunch more health under almost as horrible conditions.
I don't think it's mathematically possible for any (or any aside from a handfull) guild to clear the raid going in one team at a time. There might be some options with SLKR soloing P1 (which was clearly not expected) and taking out chunks of the other phases before a mini-zerg starts, but even then I'm not sure it's possible.
Currently my theory is that the raid was tested with the faulty stacking mechanic it had at release, and that this was found to be tough but possible to beat, as suggested by others on here.
I wouldn't point my fingers at CG saying you didn't do your job if this was indeed the case, but I would think this would strengthen the case for a rework of the raid.
@CG_Doja_Fett any chance you could poke around and find out how this raid was tested (or even better, how the design process is for building the raid in it's entirety, including how the team balance and test content etc-), maybe for some new Q&A type release?
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
Because if we knew their intent was that only the top 20 guilds would be completing this raid (which if they didn't test using the damage coordination is probably a little generous), then we can reasonably assume that if they modify the bonuses to stop us from having to coordinate damage they will also ramp up the difficulty to decrease the number of guilds completing the raid.
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
Fair enough. However, if the original intent was for fewer guilds to be able to complete it, they could easily make changes that simply make it harder - like reducing SLKR's effectiveness, step up the damage thresholds even more, etc.
Now, to be clear, I am certainly not advocating for those and CG would get absolutely eviscerated for those kinds of changes. But it's far more likely that nothing will be done to make the raid "easier" if it's already being completed by more guilds than originally intended.
That's all I'm trying to say (and figure out).
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
Because if we knew their intent was that only the top 20 guilds would be completing this raid (which if they didn't test using the damage coordination is probably a little generous), then we can reasonably assume that if they modify the bonuses to stop us from having to coordinate damage they will also ramp up the difficulty to decrease the number of guilds completing the raid.
you can reasonably assume they are not going to remove this element without adding something to keep it "on par" with the desired difficulty. that doesn't change due to their initial intent.
They never have an intent of that nature. they dont quantify things in such a way, and I dont see how they could.
If they are going to change things to make it "harder" to reduce the number of guilds clearing the raid, they would say so. That woudln't require testing or feedback or anything other than data they would have already had (can't decide it needs to be less without know "less than X"). This is not the same as the current situation they do not want to announce until they "know more".
I said this earlier, but its a long time ago by now, if I was to share a guestimate of their thinking back in the day it would have been " they are happy with difficulty and the % clearing the raid, but is this the player experience they want"
My issue with your claim that coordinated damage wasn't the intended solution is that it is functionally impossible to clear the raid if you hit it 2% at a time. When it is down below 20% on p1-p3, I have trouble believing that 50 full dev accounts with maxed out characters would be able to beat it.
I'm not here to say anybody is wrong or change your mind. But, I'd have WAAAAY more trouble believing testers couldn't clear the raid and it got released knowing it couldn't be cleared.
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
Fair enough. However, if the original intent was for fewer guilds to be able to complete it, they could easily make changes that simply make it harder - like reducing SLKR's effectiveness, step up the damage thresholds even more, etc.
Now, to be clear, I am certainly not advocating for those and CG would get absolutely eviscerated for those kinds of changes. But it's far more likely that nothing will be done to make the raid "easier" if it's already being completed by more guilds than originally intended.
That's all I'm trying to say (and figure out).
see above, I was going to reply individually, but I feel this covers this too.
I will add, I would expect any changes to also have some element that also deals with SLKR in P1, maybe not specifically, but in general I would expect that to not stay the way it is, if they make changes.
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
...
But two step brought up a good point above me. There was a bug that ramped up the damage per run, not globally. Many want that as the solution. If it was a “bug” but possible to make as the norm, why not revert the “bug” and change that coding so the damage ramps per run which would still prevent overall solos as was the intention and also removes the insane coordination requirements....
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
If they change it from global to an individual run then paint me ticked pink and satisfied
I'm a bit late to the party. But I also find it hard to believe that no one in testing thought of mass coordinated attacks to bypass the thresholds. Our guild assumed the thresholds were based on the individual or maybe even individual runs. Once we learned it was global (by word of mouth), it took our 4 officers all of 2 minutes in chat to realize we'd have to do coordinated pushes. And because of this, we didn't even know it was broken until after they fixed it.
Furthermore, how did no one in testing realize that the +300% bonuses the boss should be getting at 15% HP were actually only +75%?
My guild's experience combined with the stacking fix a week or two after release makes it really hard to believe that the mechanic was working in testing. There has been no information from CG to tell us otherwise. They don't "owe" us that information. But if the raid was released in the state that they tested it, maybe they should have waited to fix the bug until they were also ready to alleviate the pain of the coordination that is now required for even the whale-iest of whale guilds, which was 100% foreseeable to anyone remotely dialed into the game.
All of these "misses" by CG are what lead to the negative attitude from so many of us.
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
...
But two step brought up a good point above me. There was a bug that ramped up the damage per run, not globally. Many want that as the solution. If it was a “bug” but possible to make as the norm, why not revert the “bug” and change that coding so the damage ramps per run which would still prevent overall solos as was the intention and also removes the insane coordination requirements....
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
If they change it from global to an individual run then paint me ticked pink and satisfied
Agreed, this would be a big step in the right direction. I would guess that SLKR probably ruined any chance of it staying as large as 20%.
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
...
But two step brought up a good point above me. There was a bug that ramped up the damage per run, not globally. Many want that as the solution. If it was a “bug” but possible to make as the norm, why not revert the “bug” and change that coding so the damage ramps per run which would still prevent overall solos as was the intention and also removes the insane coordination requirements....
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
If they change it from global to an individual run then paint me ticked pink and satisfied
Agreed, this would be a big step in the right direction. I would guess that SLKR probably ruined any chance of it staying as large as 20%.
I mean that’s fine. Change it to 10% even. It’ll make it so much better because then people can get their runs in on their own time and accord. It takes away the biggest issue of the raid. Now if they also lowered the gear threshold to R3 then that’s all I could feasibly ask for aside from the rewards and G5 pieces in there
I still struggle with the developers not knowing folks would use airplane mode and coordinate? As far as I can remember, for all new raids when released, people used airplane mode to coordinate runs or maximize run damage. This has been done since the original rancor. This goes back to my thoughts that the developers really don’t “play” the game. They “work” on the game. To me that is a difference as they do not think like players.
I still struggle with the developers not knowing folks would use airplane mode and coordinate? As far as I can remember, for all new raids when released, people used airplane mode to coordinate runs or maximize run damage. This has been done since the original rancor. This goes back to my thoughts that the developers really don’t “play” the game. They “work” on the game. To me that is a difference as they do not think like players.
He gave an hypothetical scenario, looking back, the intention of having everyone attack at the same time can still be given without players retreating (just do a single run and clear a phase, no need to co-ordinate or retreat) which is a sensible ask, once your guild has enough members and teams to do X amount of damage consistently
In the original raids, airplane mode trick was only used to prevent "overkilling" a raid boss in a phase at the last 5% or so, it wasn't a popular trick in every new raid so far, it was just used to redo for higher and higher scores which is what Doja has been advocating for (submit score button)
Can someone please tell me why mk10 blastech is a reward for this raid?
This and other paltry gear items were asked why included in this raid and it’s been ignored. This is actually a fair question for @CG_Doja_Fett to ask. There’s even G5 gear pieces in there. Why is such usless and saturated gear a potential drop in “end game “content”
2. limiting each guild member to only one team per phase (with retreat)
This makes good sense, except they'd also have to make it so the Rancor can't immediately devour in p2. Giving each player 5 battles for the whole raid, like we used to get per day in lower-tier raids, could work well.
If it were one battle per phase, they could also keep the ramping damage mechanic if it were calculated per player and if a player couldn't use the same squad across multiple phases.
If this is something they want to keep in this mode, it will likely be done in a less direct/permanent way. Even the ramping we see right now, in theory can be developed past. So they would likely keep it in a way that has an eventual "out" vs a hard limit.
Kyno ... is there an update on the raid, or a place where updates can be found easily (I don't have the time to go through 88 pages of forum posts)? Are they planning a change to the raid?
No, there is no update. We have no idea if they are planning on making a change, since they refuse to say anything about it.
Just speaking hypothetically, but...
Examining a raid, deciding whether to make changes, then actually redesigning, testing, doing quality passes and making sure those changes are able to be implemented without breaking the game and still hitting an intended target (and going a step further to make sure that the changes would be final in order to prevent having to come back and reexamine/make changes again) probably takes a bit of time.
CG isn't refusing to say anything. The issue hasn't been ignored. I've provided updates when possible. Just bc they're not the updates you want (which I also understand is frustrating, but I'm not going to make promises prematurely) doesn't mean the studio is refusing to comment on the raid. If/when there is something definitively determined, I will make an announcement stating "there will be no changes at this time" or "changes are being made and here they are".
Again, I understand this is taking longer than any of us would like and the raid has frustrated many people. You're totally entitled to your feels in that regard. But, saying the studio refuses to say anything is simply not true.
Dude you seem like a nice fella. This raid is ridiculous. Bouncing back and forth between discord and the game and flight mode is crazy. I make a mistake and people get bent out of shape cus I leaked a bit of damage. Honestly how did the developers not see this coming??? And then throw kids and family into the mix. It's actually kinda rude the lack of consideration placed into these mechanics they developed.
Bad idea man!
I get where you're coming from. The Raid wasn't designed to be completed in airplane mode. That work-around quickly became the popular solve once released to players. I mention that to illustrate the point that there was no "rude" intention to the design of the raid, but I also understand the player sentiment surrounding the raid and their reasons for feeling the way they do. The response and sentiment has been heard and hopefully I'll have a more substantial update one way or another soon.
I'm not following. Sorry. So the raid was not intended to be completed by maximizing and coordinating the release of damage? Perheps you could shed some light on how this raid was intended to be completed then? Or how this didn't come up as a solution in testing? Especially since it's a fairly obvious solution.
Honestly, I'm not sure if this "Oh... Okay... wow....we didn't see THAT coming...sheesh." from CG makes me feel better or worse.
Even if we had 10 people doing nothing other than balance testing the raid at 40 hrs per week for two weeks, that's a drop in the bucket compared to it going public and having all the players' time and strategies working to defeat it as quickly and easily as possible.
I'm speaking hypothetically here, as I was not part of the design/QA process for this raid. But, players will always figure out how to do things in game that are more effective than designers anticipate. I get the airplane mode/mass attack method seems obvious, especially now. But maybe it wasn't anticipated at the time of design and testing.
Of course, it's easy to attack this position and say something like, "if they didn't 4see this then they're not gud at their jerbz!" But really I'm speaking in broad terms here, not specifically to this instance. I'm just offering insight to the process and giving examples of things that CAN happen. Not saying it happened in regards to the CT Rancor. I'm more trying to point out that players will almost always be better at figuring out "solutions" for game modes than any QA/testing team. Our designers work diligently and they're a talented bunch. But, nobody bats a thousand against the players.
...
But two step brought up a good point above me. There was a bug that ramped up the damage per run, not globally. Many want that as the solution. If it was a “bug” but possible to make as the norm, why not revert the “bug” and change that coding so the damage ramps per run which would still prevent overall solos as was the intention and also removes the insane coordination requirements....
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
If they change it from global to an individual run then paint me ticked pink and satisfied
Agreed, this would be a big step in the right direction. I would guess that SLKR probably ruined any chance of it staying as large as 20%.
I mean that’s fine. Change it to 10% even. It’ll make it so much better because then people can get their runs in on their own time and accord. It takes away the biggest issue of the raid. Now if they also lowered the gear threshold to R3 then that’s all I could feasibly ask for aside from the rewards and G5 pieces in there
There's no reason to lower the R5 requirement. Stick to what matters, the damage threshold issue.
Please don't put a "submit score" button at the end of raids. It might benefit the more serious raider or particular raid, but think of the damage it would do. Some people would no longer have a life, caught in an endless loop of trying for a better score. It's not that hard to not submit your score if you don't intend to, people.
Replies
*cough* LS Geo TB *cough*
thats not what the bug was, it was still global, it just didn't catch all the ramps it should have.
if they are testing solutions to not have it be global they are very likely looking at individual ramps.
You don't get rewards in raids for clearing three phases.
Im curious to know what is the size of the Beta testing program? Are you interested in expanding it to, as Ravens said, to include theory crafters and game-changers or maybe even more everyday players?
Sure, it wasn't entirely serious. But releasing something that is straight-up impossible to clear isn't completely unprecedented.
but that comparison is in no way equal. So no that is not a precedent that has been set for raids.
Honestly I am interested in how this raid was tested. This is not me trying to say you guys didn't do your job or anything like that, but I am sincerely curious about the proces in general and for this raid specifically.
I simply do not understand how this raid was intended to be cleared, if not with a coordinated damage dump.
I've only really contended with the less than 20% health in P4, so other phases might be sligthly more manageable (though I doubt it) but there optimal zerg teams might be able to do 0.5-0.75% damage. With a total of 80% health to be cleared under these conditions, and a bunch more health under almost as horrible conditions.
I don't think it's mathematically possible for any (or any aside from a handfull) guild to clear the raid going in one team at a time. There might be some options with SLKR soloing P1 (which was clearly not expected) and taking out chunks of the other phases before a mini-zerg starts, but even then I'm not sure it's possible.
Currently my theory is that the raid was tested with the faulty stacking mechanic it had at release, and that this was found to be tough but possible to beat, as suggested by others on here.
I wouldn't point my fingers at CG saying you didn't do your job if this was indeed the case, but I would think this would strengthen the case for a rework of the raid.
@CG_Doja_Fett any chance you could poke around and find out how this raid was tested (or even better, how the design process is for building the raid in it's entirety, including how the team balance and test content etc-), maybe for some new Q&A type release?
The implication is that the testers figured out a way to clear the raid, without holding damage and releasing said damage in a coordinated fashion. Which is something the vast community hasn't been able to figure out in almost 2 months across thousands of guilds?
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
The implication is that the player base found a way (or even "the best way") that is the lowest development for max "reward" (damage). Not that this is the only way, and no other method could work. that is what he is getting at in his post earlier.
Ahh, so the intent is that far fewer guilds should be completing the raid than are....??? I'm truly sorry - I'm not trying to be difficult (seriously).
I'm just trying to understand what the original intent was, as that would help make clear what action is likely to be taken (or not). And so far, this is getting more confusing, not less.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
to be perfectly honest, I dont see how "our understanding" will shed light on their actions or the possibility of their actions. Their intentions (the original ones) were not conceived with feedback of the outcome (the old catch 22), like the current situation is.
Because if we knew their intent was that only the top 20 guilds would be completing this raid (which if they didn't test using the damage coordination is probably a little generous), then we can reasonably assume that if they modify the bonuses to stop us from having to coordinate damage they will also ramp up the difficulty to decrease the number of guilds completing the raid.
Fair enough. However, if the original intent was for fewer guilds to be able to complete it, they could easily make changes that simply make it harder - like reducing SLKR's effectiveness, step up the damage thresholds even more, etc.
Now, to be clear, I am certainly not advocating for those and CG would get absolutely eviscerated for those kinds of changes. But it's far more likely that nothing will be done to make the raid "easier" if it's already being completed by more guilds than originally intended.
That's all I'm trying to say (and figure out).
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
you can reasonably assume they are not going to remove this element without adding something to keep it "on par" with the desired difficulty. that doesn't change due to their initial intent.
They never have an intent of that nature. they dont quantify things in such a way, and I dont see how they could.
If they are going to change things to make it "harder" to reduce the number of guilds clearing the raid, they would say so. That woudln't require testing or feedback or anything other than data they would have already had (can't decide it needs to be less without know "less than X"). This is not the same as the current situation they do not want to announce until they "know more".
I said this earlier, but its a long time ago by now, if I was to share a guestimate of their thinking back in the day it would have been " they are happy with difficulty and the % clearing the raid, but is this the player experience they want"
see above, I was going to reply individually, but I feel this covers this too.
I will add, I would expect any changes to also have some element that also deals with SLKR in P1, maybe not specifically, but in general I would expect that to not stay the way it is, if they make changes.
I would love to see a insight post on everything they add to the game, not just characters.
If they change it from global to an individual run then paint me ticked pink and satisfied
The community would be grateful to have such posts. Let's make it happen CG!
Furthermore, how did no one in testing realize that the +300% bonuses the boss should be getting at 15% HP were actually only +75%?
My guild's experience combined with the stacking fix a week or two after release makes it really hard to believe that the mechanic was working in testing. There has been no information from CG to tell us otherwise. They don't "owe" us that information. But if the raid was released in the state that they tested it, maybe they should have waited to fix the bug until they were also ready to alleviate the pain of the coordination that is now required for even the whale-iest of whale guilds, which was 100% foreseeable to anyone remotely dialed into the game.
All of these "misses" by CG are what lead to the negative attitude from so many of us.
Agreed, this would be a big step in the right direction. I would guess that SLKR probably ruined any chance of it staying as large as 20%.
I mean that’s fine. Change it to 10% even. It’ll make it so much better because then people can get their runs in on their own time and accord. It takes away the biggest issue of the raid. Now if they also lowered the gear threshold to R3 then that’s all I could feasibly ask for aside from the rewards and G5 pieces in there
He gave an hypothetical scenario, looking back, the intention of having everyone attack at the same time can still be given without players retreating (just do a single run and clear a phase, no need to co-ordinate or retreat) which is a sensible ask, once your guild has enough members and teams to do X amount of damage consistently
In the original raids, airplane mode trick was only used to prevent "overkilling" a raid boss in a phase at the last 5% or so, it wasn't a popular trick in every new raid so far, it was just used to redo for higher and higher scores which is what Doja has been advocating for (submit score button)
We spent an hour yesterday coordinating and retrying runs...
Stomped p1!
Stomped p2!
Got psyched up to stomp p3 and p4 today... nope. Somebody forgot to airplane a run and accidentally posted it, putting us over the 20% threshold.
We could still zerg our way through p3 but then we would not have enough left for p4.
What a fun experience! I must tell all my friends!!!
Can someone please tell me why mk10 blastech is a reward for this raid?
This and other paltry gear items were asked why included in this raid and it’s been ignored. This is actually a fair question for @CG_Doja_Fett to ask. There’s even G5 gear pieces in there. Why is such usless and saturated gear a potential drop in “end game “content”
There's no reason to lower the R5 requirement. Stick to what matters, the damage threshold issue.