Star Wars: The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

Replies

  • NicWester
    6236 posts Member
    Supercat wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    Easier way to shut down the argument:
    "Yeah, sure, she's a Mary Sue. But so was Luke, Gilgamesh, Odysseus, and Liu Bei. Who cares? Go away."

    You did not go there.
    You did not just offend the coolest character in the Iliad and Odyssey.

    How was he a Rey?
    He trained for war.
    How can I offend a fictional character?
    NicWester wrote: »
    Easier way to shut down the argument:
    "Yeah, sure, she's a Mary Sue. But so was Luke, Gilgamesh, Odysseus, and Liu Bei. Who cares? Go away."

    Honest reply. I love how people put Luke on an equal scale and call him a Mary Sue but not Rey. The hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
    The larger point to be made is: Why is being a Mary Sue bad?
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Supercat
    3250 posts Member
    NicWester wrote: »
    ...I don't think you're making the point you think you are...

    you-keep-using-that-word.jpg
    Don't be a ****(4), and follow forum guidelines.
  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    NicWester wrote: »
    Supercat wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    Easier way to shut down the argument:
    "Yeah, sure, she's a Mary Sue. But so was Luke, Gilgamesh, Odysseus, and Liu Bei. Who cares? Go away."

    You did not go there.
    You did not just offend the coolest character in the Iliad and Odyssey.

    How was he a Rey?
    He trained for war.
    How can I offend a fictional character?
    NicWester wrote: »
    Easier way to shut down the argument:
    "Yeah, sure, she's a Mary Sue. But so was Luke, Gilgamesh, Odysseus, and Liu Bei. Who cares? Go away."

    Honest reply. I love how people put Luke on an equal scale and call him a Mary Sue but not Rey. The hypocrisy is strong in this thread.
    The larger point to be made is: Why is being a Mary Sue bad?

    Why is being a Mary Sue bad?? Really???

    A Mary Sue by definition is someone who is naturally brilliant at everything. And this in itself is a terrible idea for a character: "A "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting."

    However terrible the idea of a Mary Sue is it technically could work in most movies - not star wars. Because in star wars there is the force. You cannot be brilliant at everything in star wars unless you have the force.

    The ability to use the force and how powerful a being is in the force is well documented in the star wars lore, as follows:

    It was established that Anakin/Vader was the chosen one of the force and had the potential of being the most powerful force user ever.

    His lineage is strong - Luke & Leia. Luke was also a powerful force user because of this lineage and it makes sense that Kylo is as well, although not fully trained.

    Rey cannot just discover she is force sensitive, pull off all this crazy stuff, including mind tricks etc. and even beating Kylo - pushing back his force mind probe and reading his thoughts, pulling a lightsaber away from his force grasp into her own hands and besting him in lightsaber combat - all this just because....Not gonna fly with me or 1 million or more other star wars fans.

    If Rey turns out to be a Mary Sue - that would undermine everything star wars stands for. She is part of the Skywalker/Chosen One lineage...without a doubt.

    My only other hope is she is not the reincarnation of the Chosen One - or "Second Coming", because like I have said before in this thread, the chosen one of the force, being such a rare event, making it's presence in the galaxy only decades apart would be like Jesus coming down to the Earth to save everyone from their sins every few decades. I do not need to say how ridiculous this sounds.

    Post edited by Boo on
  • NicWester
    6236 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • DatBoi
    3572 posts Member
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes it.

    Also, accusing people who call rey a Mary Sue as sexist or misogynistic is extremely shortsighted. I dont see any of the Rey haters complaining about Leia for saving everyone's butts in ANH. Those who dont like Rey dont like her because she has no flaws. She has no weaknesses or vulnerabilities which can make it difficult for many people to relate to her.

    I want to just say that i personally think rey is a terrific character, but mostly because of daisy ridley. Im not ignoring the issues i named above, but ridley's performance won me over with her emotional range, charisma, and charm (all three of which i thought were missing from rogue one btw). Its a shame that the ultimate quality of her character depends on the following films but im still optimistic.
  • NicWester
    6236 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity.
    Well, golly, it sure is cool that everyone could make that determination after one movie, then.
    Ceterum censeo Patientia esse meliat.
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes

    Rey doesn't have any personal flaws?

    Wait, what? Almost 70% of her character is about not having a family (or anyone), and trying to overcome those feelings of abandonment.
  • Why do we care?
    Leader "Grey Area 51" Guild
  • NicWester wrote: »
    I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    +1 billion
    DatBoi wrote:
    I dont see any of the Rey haters complaining about Leia for saving everyone's butts in ANH.

    Leia was a main character, but not the protagonist. Leia's force powers never manifest in the OT, except with regard to Luke (and that may just be twin stuff). She's also treated like a sex object for huge swaths of the films.
    Rey isn't depicted as such. The answer lies in there somewhere.

    There's a reading of TFA that suggests that Rey learns the jedi mind trick from Kylo's mind probe and learns other force tricks from the Skywalker lightsaber (as it is a powerful force relic). Being force sensitive, she was able to understand what was happening and attempt to channel it, but her control of it was weak. In the mind-probe scene, through facial expressions alone, you see Rey push Kylo out of her mind after she realizes what's happening. There are other examples of this as well.



  • Rumpelstilzchen
    1754 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Why Rey was so formidable..



    Post edited by Rumpelstilzchen on
    Leader "Grey Area 51" Guild
  • DatBoi
    3572 posts Member
    Mullato wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes

    Rey doesn't have any personal flaws?

    Wait, what? Almost 70% of her character is about not having a family (or anyone), and trying to overcome those feelings of abandonment.

    I mentioned that this part of her character is
    Mullato wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes

    Rey doesn't have any personal flaws?

    Wait, what? Almost 70% of her character is about not having a family (or anyone), and trying to overcome those feelings of abandonment.

    A hero's flaws must hold them back before they can overcome them and i dont think that really happened to rey (at least in this movie). She does refuse the lightsaber offered to her by maz, but after her vision, no mention of her abandonment issues are ever made.
  • Mullato
    2582 posts Member
    DatBoi wrote: »
    Mullato wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes

    Rey doesn't have any personal flaws?

    Wait, what? Almost 70% of her character is about not having a family (or anyone), and trying to overcome those feelings of abandonment.

    I mentioned that this part of her character is
    Mullato wrote: »
    DatBoi wrote: »
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    You're confusing the hero cycle with mary sues. A well written hero grows and learns after overcoming adversity. Their journey leads them to a greater power and they eventually master both the familar world and the new world, but only after overcoming personal weaknesses, flaws, and trials. When people call Rey a Mary Sue, this distinction is what they are talking about. She never overcomes any adversity, she never fails, she never comes to terms with any personal flaws, etc. There is almost a "refusal of the call" (a staple of any hero cycle) when she tells Han she needs to return to jakku, but that aspect of her character is never again explored and she never overcomes

    Rey doesn't have any personal flaws?

    Wait, what? Almost 70% of her character is about not having a family (or anyone), and trying to overcome those feelings of abandonment.

    A hero's flaws must hold them back before they can overcome them and i dont think that really happened to rey (at least in this movie). She does refuse the lightsaber offered to her by maz, but after her vision, no mention of her abandonment issues are ever made.

    That's because Maz helped her resolve these issues. You remember the talk they had? She realized after running away, that her past doesn't matter anymore and she must look forward (luke.)

    I dont see how this is any different than Luke refusing to go with Old Ben, but after seeing his aunt and uncle burnt up he is just like "ok, let's go"
  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    Wow - you're wrong, or at least missing the point of my last post.

    Rey cannot simply do all this stuff, just because she can. It has to be established why as per the Star wars lore, otherwise this character breaks everything star wars has established. Which would be a bad move on Disney's part trying to maintain fan faith in the franchise and rectify Lucas' **** prequel trilogy.

    Anakin had the power to be the most powerful force wielder the galaxy has or ever know, because it was explained that he was born from the force itself. He was not a "Mary Sue" as he ultimately wasn't brilliant and perfect with everythind (as per being a Mary Sue) as he fell to the darkside and murdered little children.

    This power trickled down to Luke, because he is Anakin's son.

    This power trickled down again onto Kylo, because he is Anakin's grandson.

    Then along comes Rey and throws this power out the window because she is brilliant and perfect and can do whatever she can without any explanation??? - Wrong.

    She is either a Skywalker and therefore carries the blood line and power of the Chosen One, or she is Anakin Skywalker/The Chosen One reincarnated - and I have already stated just how dumb that last theory is.

    Therefore, the only theory that makes any sense at all is that she is part of the Skywalker bloodline. Not just a random person who is beyond the power of the force itself - that is crazy and would certainly upset millions of fans.

    I would be saying the exact same thing if Rey's character was male. The fact she is female has no bearing on the issues at hand.
  • J7Luke
    478 posts Member
    I love Rey. She is shaping up to be one of my all time favorite Jedi. That said, I feel she was just a bit too strong right out of the gate. Part of being a Jedi is the time, effort, and dedication it takes to train and master different skills. Rey, however, was naturally good at almost everything right away.
    Luke hadn't even mastered the mind trick by ROTJ, but Rey had it figured out before she ever even met a Jedi. Han was a better pilot than Luke even though Luke actually had experience flying things before the battle of Yavin. Anakin wasn't even close to being able to take Dooku with the help of his master during AotC, and at that point he had had loads of training. In contrast, Rey easily beat a Skywalker descendant in a duel even though she had never used a lightsaber before. Yes, Kylo was injured, but he could freeze people in midair for crying out loud, how hard is it to beat a force-noob?
    Like I said earlier, I don't dislike Rey. I actually really like her (much more than Jyn Erso, I might add). And I won't go so far as to call her a Mary Sue, even though she does seem to be a little bit. Rather, I think the issue is power creep. Anakin had to be bigger and better than Luke just like Rey has to be bigger and better than Anakin. Another example of this that has nothing to do with Rey is lightsabers. In the OT, lightsabers had one blade. In the PT, they had one or two blades. In the ST, they can have up to 3 blades. See what I mean. Death Star in the OT, Starkiller Base in the ST. Pretty much everything in the ST has been made to be more exciting and more intense than anything prior to it, and Rey is no exception.
    Tori Kelly is awesome!
  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    J7Luke wrote: »
    I love Rey. She is shaping up to be one of my all time favorite Jedi. That said, I feel she was just a bit too strong right out of the gate. Part of being a Jedi is the time, effort, and dedication it takes to train and master different skills. Rey, however, was naturally good at almost everything right away.
    Luke hadn't even mastered the mind trick by ROTJ, but Rey had it figured out before she ever even met a Jedi. Han was a better pilot than Luke even though Luke actually had experience flying things before the battle of Yavin. Anakin wasn't even close to being able to take Dooku with the help of his master during AotC, and at that point he had had loads of training. In contrast, Rey easily beat a Skywalker descendant in a duel even though she had never used a lightsaber before. Yes, Kylo was injured, but he could freeze people in midair for crying out loud, how hard is it to beat a force-noob?
    Like I said earlier, I don't dislike Rey. I actually really like her (much more than Jyn Erso, I might add). And I won't go so far as to call her a Mary Sue, even though she does seem to be a little bit. Rather, I think the issue is power creep. Anakin had to be bigger and better than Luke just like Rey has to be bigger and better than Anakin. Another example of this that has nothing to do with Rey is lightsabers. In the OT, lightsabers had one blade. In the PT, they had one or two blades. In the ST, they can have up to 3 blades. See what I mean. Death Star in the OT, Starkiller Base in the ST. Pretty much everything in the ST has been made to be more exciting and more intense than anything prior to it, and Rey is no exception.

    Technically - Rey should not be depicted as being as powerful as Anakin - as he was supposed to be the strongest and with the most training.

    Luke had very little training from Obi Wan and only a little more from Yoda. But he did not struggle with jedi mind trick as he did that well against Bib Fortuna, but only fell short against Jabba, as he was not weak minded. That being said, Luke has already shown a use for the darkside, attacking and defeating Vader out of raw emotion (anger) and force choking Jabba's guards - Yoda or Ben certainly did not teach him that.

    So it's plausible that Rey could pull off some force techniques being untrained, but to the degree she did was quite surprising.

  • NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    That's pretty close-minded if you or anyone else think gender has something to with the group who dislikes Rey. Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning. If you maybe paid attention to the arguments you'll notice people dislike Rey because of the little to no flaws she had.
  • J7Luke
    478 posts Member
    Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning.
    +1

    Tori Kelly is awesome!
  • NinFang
    60 posts Member
    She'll turn Sith lol
    I hope so lol,
    In all honesty, i think it's likely. it'd be lame to just have her mimic Luke's story, the "last hope" that defies the greater evil and wins.

    Also, there's no way that there isn't going to be some massive twist that takes place within the next two movies.

    Plus if the rumours are true about Star wars movies until 2030, they'd need something huge to happen to set up ep 10-12.



  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    That's pretty close-minded if you or anyone else think gender has something to with the group who dislikes Rey. Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning. If you maybe paid attention to the arguments you'll notice people dislike Rey because of the little to no flaws she had.

    I certainly do not hate Rey by any means - in fact I loved her in the force awakens and I think a strong Jedi female lead is fresh and what the saga is needing.

    I only have concern about how Disney are going to explain her power. I really cannot see her being anything but Luke's daughter, without me walking out of the theatre, no other theory out there makes any sense that keeps star wars lore intact.
  • NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    That's pretty close-minded if you or anyone else think gender has something to with the group who dislikes Rey. Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning. If you maybe paid attention to the arguments you'll notice people dislike Rey because of the little to no flaws she had.

    Adding to this, people have been more defensive of Rey than Luke. I have no idea where this whole "because she's a woman" card is coming from. If we were for equality, gender won't be taken into consideration.
  • CaptainRex
    2649 posts Member
    NinFang wrote: »
    She'll turn Sith lol
    I hope so lol,
    In all honesty, i think it's likely. it'd be lame to just have her mimic Luke's story, the "last hope" that defies the greater evil and wins.

    Also, there's no way that there isn't going to be some massive twist that takes place within the next two movies.

    Plus if the rumours are true about Star wars movies until 2030, they'd need something huge to happen to set up ep 10-12.



    It would be cool if Rey turns bad, and Kylo turns good.
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."
  • Supercat
    3250 posts Member
    Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning.
    This is what makes me hate the world. Plenty of stupids when you are smart :bawling:
    #McDonald'sCofeeCup
    #dontknowhowrospellcofee
    Don't be a ****(4), and follow forum guidelines.
  • CaptainRex
    2649 posts Member
    Supercat wrote: »
    Of course, it's hard to expect real answers anymore with society always throwing victim cards instead of using actual reasoning.
    This is what makes me hate the world. Plenty of stupids when you are smart :bawling:
    #McDonald'sCofeeCup
    #dontknowhowrospellcofee

    Autocorrect didn't tell you to write coffee?
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."
  • Ansroff
    283 posts Member
    If there is an "I am your father" moment, I'm walking out of the theater.
  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    shortpants wrote: »
    If there is an "I am your father" moment, I'm walking out of the theater.

    I think I'll join you on that.
  • shortpants wrote: »
    If there is an "I am your father" moment, I'm walking out of the theater.

    Yes
  • Rea
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    NO! Just NO!

    I have no problems with realistic kickass female characters! I love Captain (later Major and Colonel!) Samantha Carter in Stargate and she is a kickass woman who's not afraid to challenge men, but she had to learn her craft (being a soldier and a scientist, too!) first as well! She was never dumb, but she certainly didn't wake up one day and knew all about wormhole-theory while also being able to do hand to hand combat and shoot like a pro! Same for other female characters like say Sonea from "The Black Magian" books or (if you insist on it being characters from Star Wars) Ahsoka Tano (she had to learn fighting, too and didn't pull it out of a hat while also making all of the peopel around her look like incompetent fools! Hell she was beaten often at first, she lost soldiers under her command because she didn't listen to her masters etc.), Leia Organa (she wasn't weak just because she was in a bikini in RoTJ, far from it! She **** walked into a crime lord's **** lair and dared to challenge him (sure she lost, but it was gutsy to try that!)), Mara Jade-Skywalker etc. etc.

    So DON'T YOU **** DARE CALL ME A DAMNED MYSOGYNIST or a Woman-hater etc. (I have no problem with equality of the sexes, but that goes both ways! Men shouldn't suddenly be the losers, the disposable second class citizens whose only job it is to provide for their female overlords, to grovel on command and worship the ground women walk on! Give me equality of opportunities (which we already have in most places!), not equality of outcomes (the SAHM returning to work after having stayed at home for over a decade with the kids can't expect to earn as much as someone who never left and got all the promotions and opportunities to earn additional qualifications etc. and that's just one example!)

    I don't care about your freaking gender (I am not judging people based on their gender, never have and never will! The criteria for me are: Can this person do the work? Is he/she a complainer/whiner? How does this person treat others? Does this person think that their gender deserves better treatment than the other gender? etc.!), but if you are basically the best from the get go, are never challenged in a meaningful way, don't have to overcome (harsh!) adversity etc. etc. then you are a damned Mary-Sue (or if male: Gary-Stu!) if you are in a movie or book!

    Rey is just too perfect, sure she gets taken prisoner, but she frees herself with an ADVANCED FORCE ABILITY...resisting mind reading? Ok, no problem with that (she's rather strong willed, so I am willing to accept that!), but her actually turning the table and messing around with a stormtrooper's mind without actually having been shown how? No!

    Also: Ripping stuff appart (also known as scavenging!) doesn't exactly teach you how what you are salvaging worked before, so it does not teach you how to fix everything!

    Driving some speeders etc. also doesn't teach you how to operate a complicated space-ship, Luke couldn't have operated the Falcon at first (because he wasn't familar with its controls - he could fly an X-Wing because he had his T16 with a similar control-setup...as for Anakin: He couldn't really fly the Naboo starfighter, he was barely able to use the weapons on it against droids that were only a few meters from it and he fired his torpedos by **** accident! Sure later on he could make it do what he wanted, but he wasn't flying loops around the droid starfighters! Frankly he should have probably died, but the plot required it otherwise!)

    The lightsaber fight: Rey should have lost! IMHO Luke should have shown up saving her (or, to make it better: Han should have intercepted a strike meant for her and Kylo should have left because he hadn't planned on killing his father...I hated the Han death scene!)...she had no training (no: The staff doesn't count because it's a totally different weapon, especially since a staff has weight and a lightsaber-blade does not (the hilt weighs a little, but that's it!) and neither can the blade be touched) and Kylo, even if he wasn't quite a Dark Lord of the Sith yet (or a Jedi-Knight for that matter!), did have training! Yes, lightsaber combat is influenced by ones connection to the force, but most of it is training! Otherwise Obi-Wan (who had a poor connection to the force, especially compared to Yoda, Anakin and Luke!) would not have been a master on the council, he was because of his mastery of the lightsaber and because he was a great diplomat! Similarly Mace Windu, who wasn't all that great with the force either (at least not with acrobatics, telekinesis etc.), but had a mastery of hand to hand combat and had developed his own lightsaber form (Vaapad)!

    Note: No, his wound should not have hampered Kylo! In fact his pain should have given him a BOOST! Pain leads to hatred and hatred feeds the dark side after all!

    Rey is just too perfect! I would have been satisfied if Kylo had kicked her **** (I'd have let all the other things - maybe with the exception of the mind-trick - slide, but this just hammered the fact home that they didn't make a realistic character! Give me OT-Leia any day over this unrealistic character!)

    So, done :(

    ps: The only way to fix this is if she had training but has amnesia/has had a mind-wipe! Being another "chosen one" doesn't fix it because even those need training (Anakin was almost killed during his first true lightsaber duel for crying out loud! Same goes for Luke...Vader was toying with him! Same for the Count and Anakin! If Dooku really wanted Anakin dead, then he'd have been dead after Obi-Wan was knocked out of the fight!)
  • Please name Rey’s weaknesses. Yep, none. Mary Sue 100%!
  • CaptainRex
    2649 posts Member
    edited November 2017
    DarthLAX wrote: »
    Rea
    NicWester wrote: »
    So... You can't be a Mary Sue if you're the chosen one?

    I don't think you've read very many bad fanfics if you think that isn't basically one of the prime identifiers of a Mary Sue.

    A Mary Sue is a character that's absurdly overpowered in comparison to other characters within the work. They're always right and whatever they do always works out in the end despite the setbacks. They almost always have a tragic background where their family all died some dumb way or another and some sort of magical background such as being born of the force or blessed by the gods. Being well-developed or not doesn't matter--if it did, then the term is purely subjective, in which case applying it to a character is a fraught exercise because it's subject to all kinds of internal biases.

    Objectively speaking of course she's one. But, as I said, so is Luke. So is Hercules, Romulus, Jesus, and King Arthur in the Western canon, Gilgamesh in the Mesopotamian, and Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang in the Chinese canon. I'd name more epic heroes from other cultures if I knew them, but the point remains the same. I'd also name some female epic heroines, except there's a distinct lack of them, which is sort of the underlaying point to all of this. Luke miraculously survives a dogfight where he is the last person with a chance to fire a torpedo to destroy the Death Star and save the day for the whole Rebellion and manages to do so by using the force despite sufficient training to get beaten up by a training droid and everyone still says "USE THE FORCE, LUKE!" Romulus founds Rome and everyone's all, "Hey, that part where he was raised by a wolf was really cool." Rey uses the force and everyone's all, "A GIRL CAN'T DO THAT."

    NO! Just NO!

    I have no problems with realistic kickass female characters! I love Captain (later Major and Colonel!) Samantha Carter in Stargate and she is a kickass woman who's not afraid to challenge men, but she had to learn her craft (being a soldier and a scientist, too!) first as well! She was never dumb, but she certainly didn't wake up one day and knew all about wormhole-theory while also being able to do hand to hand combat and shoot like a pro! Same for other female characters like say Sonea from "The Black Magian" books or (if you insist on it being characters from Star Wars) Ahsoka Tano (she had to learn fighting, too and didn't pull it out of a hat while also making all of the peopel around her look like incompetent fools! Hell she was beaten often at first, she lost soldiers under her command because she didn't listen to her masters etc.), Leia Organa (she wasn't weak just because she was in a bikini in RoTJ, far from it! She **** walked into a crime lord's **** lair and dared to challenge him (sure she lost, but it was gutsy to try that!)), Mara Jade-Skywalker etc. etc.

    So DON'T YOU **** DARE CALL ME A DAMNED MYSOGYNIST or a Woman-hater etc. (I have no problem with equality of the sexes, but that goes both ways! Men shouldn't suddenly be the losers, the disposable second class citizens whose only job it is to provide for their female overlords, to grovel on command and worship the ground women walk on! Give me equality of opportunities (which we already have in most places!), not equality of outcomes (the SAHM returning to work after having stayed at home for over a decade with the kids can't expect to earn as much as someone who never left and got all the promotions and opportunities to earn additional qualifications etc. and that's just one example!)

    I don't care about your freaking gender (I am not judging people based on their gender, never have and never will! The criteria for me are: Can this person do the work? Is he/she a complainer/whiner? How does this person treat others? Does this person think that their gender deserves better treatment than the other gender? etc.!), but if you are basically the best from the get go, are never challenged in a meaningful way, don't have to overcome (harsh!) adversity etc. etc. then you are a damned Mary-Sue (or if male: Gary-Stu!) if you are in a movie or book!

    Rey is just too perfect, sure she gets taken prisoner, but she frees herself with an ADVANCED FORCE ABILITY...resisting mind reading? Ok, no problem with that (she's rather strong willed, so I am willing to accept that!), but her actually turning the table and messing around with a stormtrooper's mind without actually having been shown how? No!

    Also: Ripping stuff appart (also known as scavenging!) doesn't exactly teach you how what you are salvaging worked before, so it does not teach you how to fix everything!

    Driving some speeders etc. also doesn't teach you how to operate a complicated space-ship, Luke couldn't have operated the Falcon at first (because he wasn't familar with its controls - he could fly an X-Wing because he had his T16 with a similar control-setup...as for Anakin: He couldn't really fly the Naboo starfighter, he was barely able to use the weapons on it against droids that were only a few meters from it and he fired his torpedos by **** accident! Sure later on he could make it do what he wanted, but he wasn't flying loops around the droid starfighters! Frankly he should have probably died, but the plot required it otherwise!)

    The lightsaber fight: Rey should have lost! IMHO Luke should have shown up saving her (or, to make it better: Han should have intercepted a strike meant for her and Kylo should have left because he hadn't planned on killing his father...I hated the Han death scene!)...she had no training (no: The staff doesn't count because it's a totally different weapon, especially since a staff has weight and a lightsaber-blade does not (the hilt weighs a little, but that's it!) and neither can the blade be touched) and Kylo, even if he wasn't quite a Dark Lord of the Sith yet (or a Jedi-Knight for that matter!), did have training! Yes, lightsaber combat is influenced by ones connection to the force, but most of it is training! Otherwise Obi-Wan (who had a poor connection to the force, especially compared to Yoda, Anakin and Luke!) would not have been a master on the council, he was because of his mastery of the lightsaber and because he was a great diplomat! Similarly Mace Windu, who wasn't all that great with the force either (at least not with acrobatics, telekinesis etc.), but had a mastery of hand to hand combat and had developed his own lightsaber form (Vaapad)!

    Note: No, his wound should not have hampered Kylo! In fact his pain should have given him a BOOST! Pain leads to hatred and hatred feeds the dark side after all!

    Rey is just too perfect! I would have been satisfied if Kylo had kicked her **** (I'd have let all the other things - maybe with the exception of the mind-trick - slide, but this just hammered the fact home that they didn't make a realistic character! Give me OT-Leia any day over this unrealistic character!)

    So, done :(

    ps: The only way to fix this is if she had training but has amnesia/has had a mind-wipe! Being another "chosen one" doesn't fix it because even those need training (Anakin was almost killed during his first true lightsaber duel for crying out loud! Same goes for Luke...Vader was toying with him! Same for the Count and Anakin! If Dooku really wanted Anakin dead, then he'd have been dead after Obi-Wan was knocked out of the fight!)

    tumblr_mn9fmxFVcZ1qz8x31o1_400.gif
    #CloneHelmets4Life...VICTORY!!!! :smiley: "I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere."
  • Boo
    3409 posts Member
    If Rey is a Mary Sue - quite clearly that upsets a lot of people, including myself.

    Her power and abilities to pull off such skilled use of the force and lightsaber combat - without training, must be explained.

    The thing is TFA introduced the character of Rey, but we do not know anything about her yet.

    Her parentage is still questionable - is she a skywalker? she could be.

    Even if she is both very powerful Jedi - Luke and Anakin (the actual chosen one of the force!) both required training.

    The only reasons, aside from her heritage, that could have aided Rey is that it was the Will of the force that allowed her to do what she did.

    The Will of the force is the only loop hole in all of this - it is absolute and above anything.

    But again, this needs to be explained. Otherwise why have such a definitive character such as Anakin - who was the chosen one of the force, master of light and dark and had prophecies about his very existence be undershadowed by a little girl with no training - does not make sense.

    We can argue until everyone is blue in the face whether Rey is a Mary Sue or not - none of it matters until the following movies reveal something about Rey's skills or why she was able to do what she did.

    If this does not happen, and Rey is just a Mary Sue - then shame on Disney for ruining star wars.
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