The logic given for nerfing the expose mechanic in raids is absolutely insane. I've seen 6 yr olds go through better logical processes than that.
You don't make other teams more viable by making the better teams less viable. All you did there is put the better team down to a lower level of better. (seeing as it still outperforms any other squad.)
All you did was make the good squads worse. Nothing at all was done to help people enjoy the raid with their full roster. Its amazing, you somehow managed to only take things away from the players, not help them at all. There are quite a few changes that really would make a lot of sense that you refuse to even address, ignoring any complaints about them. Such as challenge gear in raids, as well as ridiculous stacking tenacity, which goes against the reasons you stated previously to nerf expose. Because you know you have no good excuse for why they remain, besides money making opportunities. I have no problem with y'all making money. Its a business after all. But its just become a greedy cash grab.
You guys amaze me. How about a little honesty here and there?
@CG_RyDiggs . Hey man. I'm not a big fan of the changes but it's happening so I'm moving on. I do have an issue with the rewards though.
I'm an officer in a 90m guild. We tried the t6 and quit it. Ok.
We tried the t5 and finished it in about 6 days. It was a terrible experience.
Now we've decided to farm the t4. Only problem is the rewards aren't worth it. I honestly don't know if I can keep the guild on target for this raid. You need to review the lower tier rewards or this raid will just be put on the backburner until good teams emerge.
People who say this raid isn’t meant to be beat are wrong. Yes it should be hard but not impossible. Here is my opinion. We have Nightsisters, Sith, and Bounty Hunters that all get faction bonuses. We also have GMYoda, JKAnikan, CLS, and RJT. Now between all of this we have 6 factions. We also have 6 raid bosses. At G12 each of these factions should be able to do 2% damage to at least 1 boss. So far as I know only one of these does and might still be able to do after the nerf. Now for 50 people to get all of these factions to G12 is a tall order so even the way I envision how this raid is supposed to be there would still be a lot of time before most guilds could complete the raid but at least there would be a obvious roadmap.
I can appreciate the desire for transparency and I believe that the best interest of the game is the intent. That stated, this Raid is not an enjoyable or positive addition to the game by any stretch of the imagination.
Succinctly stated, raw DPS is the only viable tactic available to players. Any team that relies on any sort of negative status effect is largely worthless in this raid. One of the stated intentions was that this was meant to be a puzzle for players that encourages the broad use of their entire collection. The outcome is a narrow band of viable teams and a pattern of frustration for players.
Looking specifically at Darth Nihilus as one example, his sutter effect on the use of Annihilate coupled with an exponential tenacity curve means most of my runs involve hoping for awesome RNG on the opening few attacks. When that doesn't happen I back out and try, try, try again to maximize my opening impact. After that, it's about resigning oneself to the whims of RNG as your team gets picked apart. It's frustrating, it makes players feel helpless, and it is not enjoyable.
Yes, I am sure that additional theorycrafting will produce more viable strategies, and players will eventually master and conquer this content like all others. That stated, if I judge this raid against the intent of it's design it misses that mark by a wide margin. It does not feel like a puzzle, it feels like torture and it does not encourage the use of the majority of my roster.
I still love the game overall and enjoy the majority of the content, but the Sith Raid is a failure to achieve it's stated objectives.
Of course if they directly answered questions instead of dancing around them or outright ignoring them with political speak then maybe we wouldn't have 1200 posts asking the same 6 questions to begin with.
Are they dancing around the question, or do you just not like the answer?
Design wise, and mechanically wise, Yes, annoying beyond belief. its just a huge DPS race, do the necessary damage enrage, no mechancs, no strategy...
If you don't think it takes strategy, then phase 1 is going to take you a week. Why is "DPS race" said like it's a bad thing? Rancor was turn-meter reduction race. HAAT was expose race. Why are damage-based characters so bad that they don't deserve a place to shine? Buffs and debuffs and control teams are great in Arena, droids and other teams that just focus on hitting like a truck are gone. Why shouldn't they be useful in one out of the three raids?
If @CG_RyDiggs would actually respond to the ONE question asked the most (useless gear as a reward), it would curtail most of the posts. I’ve found if people are asking the same question, probably a good idea to answer the question so people stop asking. Usually how it works everywhere else in life but apparently not on this forum.
Because who cares? Oh, man, you got challenge gear, that stinks, I guess you just have to make use of the other three items in your reward box and do it again. I guess you just have to take those guild tokens you got and buy the gear you need.
Rewards are always randomized. It's like that for literally every game. One slot likely has challenge gear, deal with it. Rewards aren't the point of the thread--the point of the thread are the changes to the mechanics.
This sith raid has been the best part of this game as of late! I spend a total of 5 minutes on it a day, which frees my time up for other parts of the game!!!
Why couldn't you just fix the sith raid without touching the other aspects of the game?!
That's exactly what they did. None of these changes apply outside of raids.
There is nothing about deathmark. Actually it does a similar amount of damage than expose. Is deathmark damage cut by half too or it is the same ? Only deathtrooper can actually apply it....
It looks like Deathmark and Thermal Detonators are staying the same. I'm pretty sure that's intentional, not an oversight, because these teams are pulling in significantly less damage than the Rey teams.
@SithAmer - are you happy with those glancing, downright condescending answers that don't really address the main points in ANY of your original points raised? I mean, you don't have to be a linguistics professor to see that there was not one proper direct answer in there...
@Lekrom1982 I guess our role is to highlight the issues and if they choose to play ignorant and give tangential responses, it is their loss in the end. The community ( you and me) see through these things.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
Triumvirate is too hard, small guilds like mine can't even dream of doing a heroic raid we can barely even do any damage in tier 4. And then there's the issue that squads like Phoenix can't do any damage to phase 1 nihilus because of his regenerative protection, this raid needs some major reworks, or make darth traya available elsewhere.
Triumvirate is too hard, small guilds like mine can't even dream of doing a heroic raid we can barely even do any damage in tier 4. And then there's the issue that squads like Phoenix can't do any damage to phase 1 nihilus because of his regenerative protection, this raid needs some major reworks, or make darth traya available elsewhere.
Your guild is not ready for T4 then. Keep going lower, maybe try T2.
We failed at T6. Dropped to T4 and finished it in 2.5 days. So that's where we're staying for now. As our guild continues to grow we'll give T5 a try.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
as a guild officer, we've not required our members to have it until this raid was released.. our members are working on it but they have not had the chance to finish off both vets within that time. We're trying so hard to move forward but CG is on a streak of putting sticks in our wheels as of late. It's getting annoying especially that they are not listening to any of the feedback
I missed JTR first time around and have been farming the vets since. I took a break to farm KRU, because everything I saw everywhere said JTR would return on May 4th for star wars day. Now with this announcement 2 days I'm advance, I will not have time to farm the remaining shards I need (han is 7, chewie is almost 6). With maybe 2 weeks notice I could have been fine, but given the date I expected her, I wasn't pumping everything I had into it.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
So you need 30 of the team they say is too strong? Lol. Perfect example of how P1 stifles other team comps with it's insane mechanics.
30 is post nerf. 15-20 pre nerf.
Even at 15-20, you are still pigeonholed into a very specific team. Which is due solely to P1 mechanics which punishes other comps.
I agree, but it's not too different from the HAAT launch, where guilds that had 20+ 7 star EP's (which was rare) had a far better chance to clear it. At least JTR is returning within two weeks of this raid's launch. EP was about 2.5 months.
This raid has been figured out, even with the changes. There is a video now explaining how to beat p3 with 20-25 teams of characters most people should have. There will be another tomorrow explaining how to beat p2 with 20-30 teams, but it does require hoda, so that isn't an easy one. And 30 jtr will still take care of p1. Let NS and FO kill DN in p4, then the raid is basically over.
So you need 30 of the team they say is too strong? Lol. Perfect example of how P1 stifles other team comps with it's insane mechanics.
30 is post nerf. 15-20 pre nerf.
Even at 15-20, you are still pigeonholed into a very specific team. Which is due solely to P1 mechanics which punishes other comps.
I agree, but it's not too different from the HAAT launch, where guilds that had 20+ 7 star EP's (which was rare) had a far better chance to clear it. At least JTR is returning within two weeks of this raid's launch. EP was about 2.5 months.
HAAT's mechanics didn't negate teams, with the exception of Zader DoTs in P1. It wasn't immune to everything. There was wiggle room to theory craft. Nihilis, there is no wiggle room. Can't make yourself faster, or him slower. Can't lower his damage or armor. Can't raise your damage or armor without it being a detriment. TMR immunity I get, no qualms there. But would it break the raid to get a 1 turn slow, defense down or God forbid an Ability Block? Something! It's almost like they designed to 11. Give us a little wiggle room to be innovative. But no, we JTR or bust- after they nerf her.
Simple fix: reduce the stacking Tenacity to reasonable levels.
Devs have the right to change what they want w/o any repurcusions,well we reserve the right to stop spending money,hit them where it hurts,if the game fails,its on them,they are sitting on a gold mine here but they want all the gold.The double standards and lying is whats making gamers angry.If haat gets messed up and we cant finish as a guild,thats a huge problem!Not fair to the new players while long time Vets sit there with 7* kenobis...A little off topic-they talk about loops being bad for the game,well I just ran into a rebel pilot loop that killed 3 bounty hunters before I could attack.
Just want to say, while the raid has potential, I believe it has the following issues:
1) The rewards are meager, at t6 anyway, for the amount of time it takes to finish the raid. 25-30 battles over 5-6 days for a few groups of 2-3 g12 pieces is pretty bad when compared to the great TB rewards.
2) In their effort to make the raid unsoloable, the devs went way too far with the high tenacity of the bosses. All they needed to do is make the bosses immune to TM reduction, and the problem is solved. That would at least let us use the multitude of debuffing toons we know and love.
If CG’s testing doesn’t show that 80% of the characters in the game are essentially worthless in the raid, then their testing is more misguided than a g12 Mob Enforcer. Don’t pee on our legs and tell us it’s just raining.
There’s one team that is effective in P1. One... and you have to devote an insane amount of cantina energy into two totally useless characters to get her. Debuff teams are completely worthless with the exception of deathmark and thermal dets only come attached to garbage character abilities.
People who say this raid isn’t meant to be beat are wrong.
"People" implies more than one person. Who the heck is arguing that this raid should never be beaten?
Ah he doesn't mean someone is saying the raid should never be beaten. The accusation is that the developers built the raid intending for it to be nearly impossible to complete the heroic tier when the raid launched - the allegation being that they would then release new characters, level cap increase, etc. that would ultimately make it possible to beat.
Basically - "Let's add this thing and balance it for how strong people *will* be in six months in order to motivate people to engage with level cap and mod cap increases, and new characters -- if no one can beat it now, so be it"
2. Our testing does not render any units useless at this point. Please let us know after the update what your thoughts are.
Again, I'm sorry I can't answer every question, but I hope the transparency I can provide is appreciated.
RT
@CG_RyDiggs maybe clarity needs to be brought to this point. The raid that was released in the "month of Sith" has basically taken what Sith do best and made those kits irrelevant. My Zader is about as dangerous as CUP in the raid. Palpatine cant land a shock on a boss and looses a large chunk of his damage and speed in the process. Sith that run with Palps are now running in mud because their debuffs don't give them the speed boost. The newly released Darth Sion should never be seen in the raid because his damage is pretty close to a feather duster. ZFinn and resistance? Cassian from Rougue One? Etc, etc, etc........
Yet, the devs tell us to come up with better theory crafting to beat the raid. When players do find a valid option, the nerf bat is swung like Mark McGuire at his juiced peak.
The tenacity buff needs to go. You made Vader resist TM reduction, you can do it to these bosses also. The lack of debuffs is an assault on the current mechanics in the game and is making me and many others, it seem, not even care about attempting to do the raid.
There’s one team that is effective in P1. One... and you have to devote an insane amount of cantina energy into two totally useless characters to get her. Debuff teams are completely worthless with the exception of deathmark and thermal dets only come attached to garbage character abilities.
On top of JTR, I can do decent damage with Wiggs CLS Han + Healer. Decent with Troopers. So-so with Empire and Nightsisters, and once I zeta Ventress' leader I'll do better with NS.
Either you're not trying hard enough or you need to try a lower tier.
There’s one team that is effective in P1. One... and you have to devote an insane amount of cantina energy into two totally useless characters to get her. Debuff teams are completely worthless with the exception of deathmark and thermal dets only come attached to garbage character abilities.
On top of JTR, I can do decent damage with Wiggs CLS Han + Healer. Decent with Troopers. So-so with Empire and Nightsisters, and once I zeta Ventress' leader I'll do better with NS.
Either you're not trying hard enough or you need to try a lower tier.
Not everyone has troopers viable because you cant upgrade everything. Not everyone has night sisters viable because you can upgrade everything. Many teams are left neutered because of the stacking tenacity. Anybodybthat does not see that does NOT want to acknowledge the truth. People spend a lot of times to make teams viable for high level content. All of that hard work should not be wiped out so easily.
There’s one team that is effective in P1. One... and you have to devote an insane amount of cantina energy into two totally useless characters to get her. Debuff teams are completely worthless with the exception of deathmark and thermal dets only come attached to garbage character abilities.
On top of JTR, I can do decent damage with Wiggs CLS Han + Healer. Decent with Troopers. So-so with Empire and Nightsisters, and once I zeta Ventress' leader I'll do better with NS.
Either you're not trying hard enough or you need to try a lower tier.
And imagine how much better you could do, if you could actually not be hamstrung by the mechanics...
Replies
You don't make other teams more viable by making the better teams less viable. All you did there is put the better team down to a lower level of better. (seeing as it still outperforms any other squad.)
All you did was make the good squads worse. Nothing at all was done to help people enjoy the raid with their full roster. Its amazing, you somehow managed to only take things away from the players, not help them at all. There are quite a few changes that really would make a lot of sense that you refuse to even address, ignoring any complaints about them. Such as challenge gear in raids, as well as ridiculous stacking tenacity, which goes against the reasons you stated previously to nerf expose. Because you know you have no good excuse for why they remain, besides money making opportunities. I have no problem with y'all making money. Its a business after all. But its just become a greedy cash grab.
You guys amaze me. How about a little honesty here and there?
I'm an officer in a 90m guild. We tried the t6 and quit it. Ok.
We tried the t5 and finished it in about 6 days. It was a terrible experience.
Now we've decided to farm the t4. Only problem is the rewards aren't worth it. I honestly don't know if I can keep the guild on target for this raid. You need to review the lower tier rewards or this raid will just be put on the backburner until good teams emerge.
Succinctly stated, raw DPS is the only viable tactic available to players. Any team that relies on any sort of negative status effect is largely worthless in this raid. One of the stated intentions was that this was meant to be a puzzle for players that encourages the broad use of their entire collection. The outcome is a narrow band of viable teams and a pattern of frustration for players.
Looking specifically at Darth Nihilus as one example, his sutter effect on the use of Annihilate coupled with an exponential tenacity curve means most of my runs involve hoping for awesome RNG on the opening few attacks. When that doesn't happen I back out and try, try, try again to maximize my opening impact. After that, it's about resigning oneself to the whims of RNG as your team gets picked apart. It's frustrating, it makes players feel helpless, and it is not enjoyable.
Yes, I am sure that additional theorycrafting will produce more viable strategies, and players will eventually master and conquer this content like all others. That stated, if I judge this raid against the intent of it's design it misses that mark by a wide margin. It does not feel like a puzzle, it feels like torture and it does not encourage the use of the majority of my roster.
I still love the game overall and enjoy the majority of the content, but the Sith Raid is a failure to achieve it's stated objectives.
Regards and thanks for what remains a great game.
If you don't think it takes strategy, then phase 1 is going to take you a week. Why is "DPS race" said like it's a bad thing? Rancor was turn-meter reduction race. HAAT was expose race. Why are damage-based characters so bad that they don't deserve a place to shine? Buffs and debuffs and control teams are great in Arena, droids and other teams that just focus on hitting like a truck are gone. Why shouldn't they be useful in one out of the three raids?
Because who cares? Oh, man, you got challenge gear, that stinks, I guess you just have to make use of the other three items in your reward box and do it again. I guess you just have to take those guild tokens you got and buy the gear you need.
Rewards are always randomized. It's like that for literally every game. One slot likely has challenge gear, deal with it. Rewards aren't the point of the thread--the point of the thread are the changes to the mechanics.
That's exactly what they did. None of these changes apply outside of raids.
It looks like Deathmark and Thermal Detonators are staying the same. I'm pretty sure that's intentional, not an oversight, because these teams are pulling in significantly less damage than the Rey teams.
I don't think you know what "compel" means.
@Lekrom1982 I guess our role is to highlight the issues and if they choose to play ignorant and give tangential responses, it is their loss in the end. The community ( you and me) see through these things.
Id suggest you guys come up with something that shows you guys hear us..we lost a lot of good players (2.6m+) already..
@CG_RyDiggs when can we expect a new raid?
Seriously?
Seriously
Your guild is not ready for T4 then. Keep going lower, maybe try T2.
We failed at T6. Dropped to T4 and finished it in 2.5 days. So that's where we're staying for now. As our guild continues to grow we'll give T5 a try.
Heroic isn't for everyone right away.
Lol sure.
So you need 30 of the team they say is too strong? Lol. Perfect example of how P1 stifles other team comps with it's insane mechanics.
30 is post nerf. 15-20 pre nerf.
I missed JTR first time around and have been farming the vets since. I took a break to farm KRU, because everything I saw everywhere said JTR would return on May 4th for star wars day. Now with this announcement 2 days I'm advance, I will not have time to farm the remaining shards I need (han is 7, chewie is almost 6). With maybe 2 weeks notice I could have been fine, but given the date I expected her, I wasn't pumping everything I had into it.
Whoops, got those numbers swapped.
Even at 30 post, you are still pigeonholed into a very specific team. Which is due solely to P1 mechanics which punishes other comps.
I agree, but it's not too different from the HAAT launch, where guilds that had 20+ 7 star EP's (which was rare) had a far better chance to clear it. At least JTR is returning within two weeks of this raid's launch. EP was about 2.5 months.
HAAT's mechanics didn't negate teams, with the exception of Zader DoTs in P1. It wasn't immune to everything. There was wiggle room to theory craft. Nihilis, there is no wiggle room. Can't make yourself faster, or him slower. Can't lower his damage or armor. Can't raise your damage or armor without it being a detriment. TMR immunity I get, no qualms there. But would it break the raid to get a 1 turn slow, defense down or God forbid an Ability Block? Something! It's almost like they designed to 11. Give us a little wiggle room to be innovative. But no, we JTR or bust- after they nerf her.
Simple fix: reduce the stacking Tenacity to reasonable levels.
"People" implies more than one person. Who the heck is arguing that this raid should never be beaten?
1) The rewards are meager, at t6 anyway, for the amount of time it takes to finish the raid. 25-30 battles over 5-6 days for a few groups of 2-3 g12 pieces is pretty bad when compared to the great TB rewards.
2) In their effort to make the raid unsoloable, the devs went way too far with the high tenacity of the bosses. All they needed to do is make the bosses immune to TM reduction, and the problem is solved. That would at least let us use the multitude of debuffing toons we know and love.
There’s one team that is effective in P1. One... and you have to devote an insane amount of cantina energy into two totally useless characters to get her. Debuff teams are completely worthless with the exception of deathmark and thermal dets only come attached to garbage character abilities.
Ah he doesn't mean someone is saying the raid should never be beaten. The accusation is that the developers built the raid intending for it to be nearly impossible to complete the heroic tier when the raid launched - the allegation being that they would then release new characters, level cap increase, etc. that would ultimately make it possible to beat.
Basically - "Let's add this thing and balance it for how strong people *will* be in six months in order to motivate people to engage with level cap and mod cap increases, and new characters -- if no one can beat it now, so be it"
@CG_RyDiggs maybe clarity needs to be brought to this point. The raid that was released in the "month of Sith" has basically taken what Sith do best and made those kits irrelevant. My Zader is about as dangerous as CUP in the raid. Palpatine cant land a shock on a boss and looses a large chunk of his damage and speed in the process. Sith that run with Palps are now running in mud because their debuffs don't give them the speed boost. The newly released Darth Sion should never be seen in the raid because his damage is pretty close to a feather duster. ZFinn and resistance? Cassian from Rougue One? Etc, etc, etc........
Yet, the devs tell us to come up with better theory crafting to beat the raid. When players do find a valid option, the nerf bat is swung like Mark McGuire at his juiced peak.
The tenacity buff needs to go. You made Vader resist TM reduction, you can do it to these bosses also. The lack of debuffs is an assault on the current mechanics in the game and is making me and many others, it seem, not even care about attempting to do the raid.
On top of JTR, I can do decent damage with Wiggs CLS Han + Healer. Decent with Troopers. So-so with Empire and Nightsisters, and once I zeta Ventress' leader I'll do better with NS.
Either you're not trying hard enough or you need to try a lower tier.
Not everyone has troopers viable because you cant upgrade everything. Not everyone has night sisters viable because you can upgrade everything. Many teams are left neutered because of the stacking tenacity. Anybodybthat does not see that does NOT want to acknowledge the truth. People spend a lot of times to make teams viable for high level content. All of that hard work should not be wiped out so easily.
Have fun with you zeta on ventress
And imagine how much better you could do, if you could actually not be hamstrung by the mechanics...