It's simple. If you're T6, you slog it out for days and get a kick in the groins as reward. If you do heroic, you work hard for 1-2 days and get useful full crafts and Traya shards.
The step from T6 to Heroic is "7* DT, a lot of Reys and a good deal of NS". That's no easy step to take. And while you wait for the event, you have (usually the ones contributing the most) people losing patience and moving to guilds already doing heroic, which means the step up gets infinitely long.
A clear and simple solution is available:
1. Increase the rewards on T6 and below. A lot. A factor of ten might not even be good enough. This might make it worth it for qualified people to stay with their progressing guild instead of feeling forced to move to a stronger one to keep up their progress.
If that's not possible for some weird reason, it needs to be less frustration in the raid:
The simple and only viable reward buff that makes lower tiers worth it is to offer only whole gear pieces for the most in demand gear for that level & buff the currency reward 2-3× (if we're expected to spend 3-5 days on it we should get rewards comperable to TB).
The thing is the devs already tries to nerf heroic tier gear payout when they realized it broke their intended gear 12 bottlenecks. They had to back down when guilds doing the heroic rebelled and said the vastly lower gear payout didn't make the raid worth doing. I think that says a lot about the flaws to the raid.
Essentially to make the rewards worth it the devs are realistically looking at having to erase the gear bottlenecks. Which I don't think would be a bad thing since credits, omegas, and zetas still impose limitations. But it would hurt their income from shipment gear sales.
Regardless they need to make a balance pass since the difficulty of lower tiers way exceeds what is reasonable to expect of the listed toon minimums (not the least of which is because you literally cannot have jtr if you only meet the minimum requirements). It's absurd that a tier 2 DN's basic & force drain abilities are a credible threat to my g11/g12 toons; the only thing that should be able to kill them at that tier is an OHK ability or enrage, all other attacks shouldn't put a dent in them.
You hit the nail on the head I think. That leaves them with significantly nerfing the lower tiers to actually pull what the raid bosses can do in line with their listed gear and shard requirements.
@CG_SBCrumb
It's been quite a while since we've heard anything... you ok? Any update... even "we're still thinkiing it through" would be appreciated. At this point, it's really starting to feel like you're dodging us.
I have money to spend... you all do want it, correct? My wallet starts closing when there is no communication & at this rate of communication, I'm surprised it hasn't imploded.
I am in a heroic guild. If you think doing this raid clears gear bottlenecks think again. They can guarantee a full piece. But that doesn't mean it's a useful piece. I have come in top 10 every raid and I have gotten two meaning ful pieces out of 15. They still augment the drop rates so we are not all getting a fully crafted multi tool. I have 4 full wristbands and 93 salvage. I have 2 visors and 44 salvage and no toons need them. Does the lure of a full piece enhance my drive? Yes but it is still subject to luck. Increasing the Guild Event Currency was a great move. Nerfing the amount of other stuff you get was too extreme.
My last thought is this we are over 3 months in. What meaningful changes can they make? It's a slog and it was lazy coding. The best known not zerg way to clear a phase is entirely dependent on luck. No real skill...total luck. Oh man you got a retribution saber restart. Come on. And the theory crafting is not finding new teams because who wants to go into mechanics on a team that will yield a 2% reduction of the bosses health.
And here ia my last bit of advice if you think it is going to get better they follow this raid with ships 2.0 saying it involves more strategy. Maybe if everyone had all the ships done...but it doesn't work that way. So it's all luck. And the raid had to get approved by management. Imagine going to a meeting and saying here is p3...it will take one team(chex mix) to get extremely lucky to get 4% and then there are other teams that do about 1% and it will be frustrating. Yet they got it approved. Carrie says she has a 3 year plan for the game but it won't last that long with the continued baffling decisions she makes.
I am in a heroic guild. If you think doing this raid clears gear bottlenecks think again. They can guarantee a full piece. But that doesn't mean it's a useful piece. I have come in top 10 every raid and I have gotten two meaning ful pieces out of 15. They still augment the drop rates so we are not all getting a fully crafted multi tool. I have 4 full wristbands and 93 salvage. I have 2 visors and 44 salvage and no toons need them. Does the lure of a full piece enhance my drive? Yes but it is still subject to luck. Increasing the Guild Event Currency was a great move. Nerfing the amount of other stuff you get was too extreme.
If you're referring to my comment of the full pieces making bottlenecks irrelevant it wasn't based on my personal opinion that that was so but rather my recollection that one of the devs gave that as the reason for the gear reward nerf they briefly tried out for heroic in the ill-fated reward revamp. My understanding is that their intention long run is way more salvage and way less full gear pieces for heroic but they screwed up that balance owing to a lack of a full gear tier past g12.
It therefore stands to reason that even though providing full pieces of high demand gear for lower tiers at a similar % to what is given heroic loot boxes is part of what is needed to make rewards worth it the devs won't do it on similar grounds.
As for what they could do at this point? Nothing that doesn't require explicit or tacit admission that they screwed up designing the raid in a major, major way. The truth is though that they need to suck it up and take those steps along with the fallout because 6 or the 7 tiers aren't worth doing because of the combo of serious boss over tuning at lower tiers (relative to listed difficulty) and absolute trash for rewards. Like I don't think there is a single comment in this entire thread speaking positively about the time investment required or rewards for tier 1-6.
My guild has made the jump from tier 5 to tier 6 to test the waters.
What an absolutely horrible raid you guys have designed. I'm all good with making a raid that can't be done by one person, but honestly, who tested this raid and gave it the thumbs up?
DN in particular has almost no redeeming qualities. I've registered 6 scores from about 30 attempts just trying to negotiate DN's horrible design. Can't blame anyone who just hits auto or refusea to participate in p1. It really is as bad as this thread makes it out to be.
Well considering this is page 21 here, I've came to this conclusion ( get your tinfoil hats ready) CG is a business. Much like businesses they need to have a paper trail. Think like when a job has a hiring post on job builder or such, it doesn't mean they are actively looking for someone just a paper trail. The crumb shmo puts up a post about (it care about this game and comunity) and (how do you like the sith raid) it's all propaganda. Carrie said they have a 3 year calender, I never trust corporations, I think they are saying that so us unsuspecting star wars fans spend what ever money we want on a game that's sinking fast with no life raft. They know these 2 things (ships/str) has destroyed the player base and don't forget the newest threat ( marvel strike force) which its funny seems some of the game changers are going to that game and plugging that game. If I were you guys, I'd stop and smell the wampa droppings of this game and say let me think about the next crystal purchase because your just feeding Carrie her incentive pink slip.
Not so sure if it's page numbers or simply time. But maybe, we'll get an Awesome Gust of wind to move this ship along. Some Auspicious Gusto on part of the devs. Awesome... Gust. Auspicious... Gusto. Awe... Gust... August. Yeah. YEAH, that sounds right!
Just going to post the same as everyone to chime in, WAYYYY too long for rewards. Even if rewards are better, it is just way too long and causing burnout for many, so just lowering their health would go a long way towards fixing everything, and a reward bump along with it should see most happy at that point. The P1 in particular is the most annoying, frustrating and unfun part of the game, besides bad RNG. DN should be toned down a bit
We are doing tier 6, my guild is 120+k GP. What I enjoy: I kinda like 2nd phase and enjoy the moment it is at last over. What I dislike: lazy game design, reward/time ratio and when it starting over again.
Phase 1. It is simply terrible. Extremely lazy design. Let’s get to theory. The game is goal and ways of reaching that goal (aka mechanics). SWGOH’s goal is to collect toons, rise and use them in special areas of game. They joy is in feeling of fulfillment. Mechanics is in casino-like energy spending and some battles based on these characters powers and abilities.
But STR is completely out of these aim and mechanics! It is DIFFERENT game.
1. The reward is not a toon (unless not heroic).
2. You can use extremely limited number of characters and they have sufficiently modified powers. Let’s be presice:
3. Nihilus (or why everyone hate it):
a) Protection regeneration with auto attack is eliminates every characters with two or more attack or long special. Also it is hard to remember which character just hit with what.
b) no debuff. Stacking tenacity removes every characters relying on debuffs.
c) no buffs. Buff still removes almost every character relying on buffs.
d) anihilation makes healer necessary. Same goes with protection ignoring strike.
I avoiding RNG question and difficulties with next ability prediction.
Etc. etc. you overdone it. STR is not SWGOH, it is another game which is not fit in. Why almost no one likes it (except for heroic tier players).
Seeing that way back when Nute Gunray was able to basically solo a phase of the HAAT.... this statement was issued by the developers:
That pretty much sums up how the lower geared Zombies are affecting the HSTR right now. Having a guild member to one phase of the HSTR and basically placing top 3 does not lend to the "intent, concept, or progression" the developers intended. Correct?
If you were active daily Palpatine and Vader should have been 7* when the reworks came out.
If you spent time then.
In this game - you either have to spend time, or you have to spend money, to succeed.
Which is great for all parties.
Except for those that live in fantasy-lad and want to succeed without spending neither time nor money.
sort of. it is great when the time is reasonable. and that's the point. Pseudo FTP don't mind working. we mind when the work is literally impossible to complete while having an actual life beyond this game. lets say 7 arena matches, 7 ship matches, its HAAT day or pit, Sith raid 5 daily battles, do all other collecting activities at least every 6 hours, sign in for the extra 45 energy that doesn't correspond to that 6 hour schedule, if you bought any mods today see if what you got can improve one of your toons, chat with your guild. its just too much. and to compete, you have to do all of that or you fall behind. and the game is no fun when you can't compete.
I'm FTP and particpate fully.
I probably spend 15 minutes a day on the game. Maybe 20? Definitely no more than 25.
That leaves me with at least 23 hours and 35 minutes per day in which to have an "actual life".
So you don’t participate in any raids in any relevant capacity?
What GP is your Guild that is attempting the raid?
What teams you did you attempt the raid with?
What part of the raid motivated or demotivated you to continue trying?
What about the raid did you enjoy? What did you dislike about the raid?
I am leader of a humble guild. After some experimentation, we settled on a cycle of 2* sith raids to get rewards more quickly.
We're a hair under 28 mil GP.
My personal go-to teams are usually Troopers, Bossk[L] Bounty Hunters, Nightsisters, Sith with a sprinkling of Tarkin, Rogue One.
Remember the show "Everyone loves Raymond?" Well, everyone HATES Nihilus. Timing your shield defense is iffy, he's way too powerful at EVERY tier of the raid. The fact that he has Zetas at Tier 2 (no reviving) is absurd. The only motivators in this raid are trying to improve your squad damage totals and the guild credits.
I like the art in the raid. It's visually well-done. As already mentioned, Nihilus sucks, opponents that have permanent debuff immunity 4-5 rounds in suck, the inability to play two of the phases on auto (because you must try to time defense against the Nihilus annihilate) sucks, the inability to retreat and save a toon or two for the next round sucks, the payouts are pretty weak and contain no special loot for going through all the aggravation this raid produces.
I'm a pretty easy-going guy, but the Sith raid makes me want to shake a baby.
After seeing several @CG_SBCrumb posts in other threads today I thought for sure he'd pop back in to say something in this feedback thread, that he started by the way. Somewhat surprised that he hasn't, but at least we know he isn't in the hospital and hasn't quit.
What tier or tiers did you play?
T4. Tried T5 once, didn't end well and had to back out, as there was no way for us to complete and thus, wasting raid coins.
What GP is your Guild that is attempting the raid?
Currently 86 mil
What teams you did you attempt the raid with?
P1, P3, P4: zThrawn L, Shore, Magma, Veers, DT; zBossk L, Fett, Dengar, Greedo, 88; Ackbar L, HY, Leia, Cad, FOTP; Wiggs L, zzCLS, zHan, zzR2;
P2: I seem to always miss!
What part of the raid motivated or demotivated you to continue trying? Motivated: only myself and a regular handful of other high-power guild members attempt it. Those lower on the power spectrum don’t even feel the need to try for minuscule damage, and I can’t say I blame them. Demotivated: it takes WAY. TOO. LONG.
What about the raid did you enjoy? What did you dislike about the raid? Enjoy: I personally do not enjoy a single aspect of this raid. I find it a bore as much as a chore, and I'd rather have more frequent TWars and TBattles than this. There is literally nothing I find enjoyable about participating in this raid, for the reasons leading to>>> >>>Dislike: the simple fact that with the exception of raw damage dealer toons, over half my roster is completely neutered due to the standard debuff resist each phase employs. A toon like Vader (whom like everyone who has him has spent considerable time, resources and in many cases real money, to level and gear) is completely ineffective. It’s a slap in the face to the player base who built him (or ANY debuff heavy toon like Palp, as another example). When players DO find ways within the game mechanics and rules to make the raid somewhat manageable (STHan/Traya, Expose), you further disregard players’ investment by nerfing those abilities so they’re less effective (if at all). When the raid (T4 for us) is FINALLY and mercifully over, the rewards are absolute JUNK. By the time it’s finished, we immediately have to start another sith raid due to raid coins that accumulated in the eternity it took us to finish in the first place. Cue the same annoying cycle all over again. No one in my guild (especially the really heavy hitters) like this raid, at all.
After seeing several @CG_SBCrumb posts in other threads today I thought for sure he'd pop back in to say something in this feedback thread, that he started by the way. Somewhat surprised that he hasn't, but at least we know he isn't in the hospital and hasn't quit.
I had the same thought, maybe he’d actually come back and give us something...anything...but it feels more and more like they just don’t give an F that this whole thing sucks and they’re never gonna fix anything
I have a unique perspective on this. When STR launched, I was in a great guild that cleared the T6 instantly and were one of the first people to be earning Traya shards. I have my 5* Traya and decided to drop down into a more casual guild to reassess my priorities a bit. I'm now doing T5! So I've gone from really enjoying STR heroic that died in a couple of hours and working on characters which might help me get into the top 3 damage to a guild that takes 5 days to kill Tier 5.
So let me just run that through again, T7 - heroic - dead in 2 hours - fun, enjoyable, great rewards, traya shards can't do it everyday so look forward to raid launch.
T5 - dead in 5 days, boring as anything, there is only so much @everyone you can do to get people back interested in this kitten show. And because the only real viable team to do big damage in phase 1 in any tier is JTR, the lower guilds don't have enough JTRs so while I'm kittening for 7-8M damage in Phase 1 with JTR most are now autoing for under 1M for 5 teams combined.
This is 5 days in and us in the top 3 already have a 5* Traya. Adding the top 5 scores together gives the same amount of damage to the bottom 25 people. We are in an 80M guild and put simply most of these people are bored as hell.
What I see is that you should have retuned T6,5,4,3,2,1 to not have this dumb tenacity mechanic and severely nerfed the health of each phase. Make the guilds that do T6,5,4,3,2,1 be able to finish it in a few hours, a day at the max. The rewards are kitten so you lose nothing and it's not like people can relaunch the raids asap again, at the moment launching back to back boring kitten STR raids is not fun, not fun at all.
Heroic was awesome, everything else is just plain kitten pants.
Also if @CG_SBCrumb and any other developers wants to experience exactly what we mean, we have a few spare spots in the guild so that you guys can really enjoy this kitten show for yourselves.
Exactly as DaFunk says - HSTR is really my favourite part of game now. Its 2 hours max, quite intensive race between guildies, (and ye, Im often "winning" which is top3, and when you're winning its usually fun).
But T6- it is sooo tedious and unfun experience, I do not really get why HP is so much inflated.
If T6 was same HP as T6 with limited daily attempts, character reset and maybe some mechanics toned down (e.g.Nihillus shield) , it would be quite enjoyable too. Target audience must do it in 4 hrs gameplay max. Else youre looking at futility excercise. Currently it is very very far from "natural progression" from T1->T7.
Ideas for nihilus phase1/4 fix:
1) Make toons with Unbreakable Will take no damage, even from annihilate. This would make the phase so much less frustrating, but still challenging.
2) Put UW on the toon that kills the add, so you can control who gets it.
3) Make it consistent whether DN uses annihilate when available. If it is on a 1 turn cooldown, he should either always use it on his second turn, or never.
I think whilst you may have made it fun for the whales. It is dead set boring for the rest of us doing T5 cause of GET rewards. Half the guild cant be bothered hitting it down.
@CG_SBCrumb is just never going to return this his own thread that he started again. Even if he could come here and say “Listen guys, I started this will good intentions to hopefully help pass along feedback to make this part of the game less tedious and more fun, but it’s going to take longer than we expected” or just say something, the 100% complete and utter disregard is prettty awful
Halfway through T6 now and even though I'm coming first - I'm done. It's just such a complete waste of time.
We should just @CG_SBCrumb in every post from here on in until we get a response.
People really hate this raid and when they hate a part of the game that is supposed to be current and important then it starts to affect their overall view of the game.
Replies
You hit the nail on the head I think. That leaves them with significantly nerfing the lower tiers to actually pull what the raid bosses can do in line with their listed gear and shard requirements.
It's been quite a while since we've heard anything... you ok? Any update... even "we're still thinkiing it through" would be appreciated. At this point, it's really starting to feel like you're dodging us.
I have money to spend... you all do want it, correct? My wallet starts closing when there is no communication & at this rate of communication, I'm surprised it hasn't imploded.
My last thought is this we are over 3 months in. What meaningful changes can they make? It's a slog and it was lazy coding. The best known not zerg way to clear a phase is entirely dependent on luck. No real skill...total luck. Oh man you got a retribution saber restart. Come on. And the theory crafting is not finding new teams because who wants to go into mechanics on a team that will yield a 2% reduction of the bosses health.
And here ia my last bit of advice if you think it is going to get better they follow this raid with ships 2.0 saying it involves more strategy. Maybe if everyone had all the ships done...but it doesn't work that way. So it's all luck. And the raid had to get approved by management. Imagine going to a meeting and saying here is p3...it will take one team(chex mix) to get extremely lucky to get 4% and then there are other teams that do about 1% and it will be frustrating. Yet they got it approved. Carrie says she has a 3 year plan for the game but it won't last that long with the continued baffling decisions she makes.
If you're referring to my comment of the full pieces making bottlenecks irrelevant it wasn't based on my personal opinion that that was so but rather my recollection that one of the devs gave that as the reason for the gear reward nerf they briefly tried out for heroic in the ill-fated reward revamp. My understanding is that their intention long run is way more salvage and way less full gear pieces for heroic but they screwed up that balance owing to a lack of a full gear tier past g12.
It therefore stands to reason that even though providing full pieces of high demand gear for lower tiers at a similar % to what is given heroic loot boxes is part of what is needed to make rewards worth it the devs won't do it on similar grounds.
As for what they could do at this point? Nothing that doesn't require explicit or tacit admission that they screwed up designing the raid in a major, major way. The truth is though that they need to suck it up and take those steps along with the fallout because 6 or the 7 tiers aren't worth doing because of the combo of serious boss over tuning at lower tiers (relative to listed difficulty) and absolute trash for rewards. Like I don't think there is a single comment in this entire thread speaking positively about the time investment required or rewards for tier 1-6.
What an absolutely horrible raid you guys have designed. I'm all good with making a raid that can't be done by one person, but honestly, who tested this raid and gave it the thumbs up?
DN in particular has almost no redeeming qualities. I've registered 6 scores from about 30 attempts just trying to negotiate DN's horrible design. Can't blame anyone who just hits auto or refusea to participate in p1. It really is as bad as this thread makes it out to be.
Not so sure if it's page numbers or simply time. But maybe, we'll get an Awesome Gust of wind to move this ship along. Some Auspicious Gusto on part of the devs. Awesome... Gust. Auspicious... Gusto. Awe... Gust... August. Yeah. YEAH, that sounds right!
Clap
Phase 1. It is simply terrible. Extremely lazy design. Let’s get to theory. The game is goal and ways of reaching that goal (aka mechanics). SWGOH’s goal is to collect toons, rise and use them in special areas of game. They joy is in feeling of fulfillment. Mechanics is in casino-like energy spending and some battles based on these characters powers and abilities.
But STR is completely out of these aim and mechanics! It is DIFFERENT game.
1. The reward is not a toon (unless not heroic).
2. You can use extremely limited number of characters and they have sufficiently modified powers. Let’s be presice:
3. Nihilus (or why everyone hate it):
a) Protection regeneration with auto attack is eliminates every characters with two or more attack or long special. Also it is hard to remember which character just hit with what.
b) no debuff. Stacking tenacity removes every characters relying on debuffs.
c) no buffs. Buff still removes almost every character relying on buffs.
d) anihilation makes healer necessary. Same goes with protection ignoring strike.
I avoiding RNG question and difficulties with next ability prediction.
Etc. etc. you overdone it. STR is not SWGOH, it is another game which is not fit in. Why almost no one likes it (except for heroic tier players).
That pretty much sums up how the lower geared Zombies are affecting the HSTR right now. Having a guild member to one phase of the HSTR and basically placing top 3 does not lend to the "intent, concept, or progression" the developers intended. Correct?
So you don’t participate in any raids in any relevant capacity?
I’m not holding my breath
I'm a pretty easy-going guy, but the Sith raid makes me want to shake a baby.
T4. Tried T5 once, didn't end well and had to back out, as there was no way for us to complete and thus, wasting raid coins.
What GP is your Guild that is attempting the raid?
Currently 86 mil
What teams you did you attempt the raid with?
P1, P3, P4: zThrawn L, Shore, Magma, Veers, DT; zBossk L, Fett, Dengar, Greedo, 88; Ackbar L, HY, Leia, Cad, FOTP; Wiggs L, zzCLS, zHan, zzR2;
P2: I seem to always miss!
What part of the raid motivated or demotivated you to continue trying?
Motivated: only myself and a regular handful of other high-power guild members attempt it. Those lower on the power spectrum don’t even feel the need to try for minuscule damage, and I can’t say I blame them.
Demotivated: it takes WAY. TOO. LONG.
What about the raid did you enjoy? What did you dislike about the raid?
Enjoy: I personally do not enjoy a single aspect of this raid. I find it a bore as much as a chore, and I'd rather have more frequent TWars and TBattles than this. There is literally nothing I find enjoyable about participating in this raid, for the reasons leading to>>>
>>>Dislike: the simple fact that with the exception of raw damage dealer toons, over half my roster is completely neutered due to the standard debuff resist each phase employs. A toon like Vader (whom like everyone who has him has spent considerable time, resources and in many cases real money, to level and gear) is completely ineffective. It’s a slap in the face to the player base who built him (or ANY debuff heavy toon like Palp, as another example). When players DO find ways within the game mechanics and rules to make the raid somewhat manageable (STHan/Traya, Expose), you further disregard players’ investment by nerfing those abilities so they’re less effective (if at all). When the raid (T4 for us) is FINALLY and mercifully over, the rewards are absolute JUNK. By the time it’s finished, we immediately have to start another sith raid due to raid coins that accumulated in the eternity it took us to finish in the first place. Cue the same annoying cycle all over again. No one in my guild (especially the really heavy hitters) like this raid, at all.
I had the same thought, maybe he’d actually come back and give us something...anything...but it feels more and more like they just don’t give an F that this whole thing sucks and they’re never gonna fix anything
So let me just run that through again, T7 - heroic - dead in 2 hours - fun, enjoyable, great rewards, traya shards can't do it everyday so look forward to raid launch.
T5 - dead in 5 days, boring as anything, there is only so much @everyone you can do to get people back interested in this kitten show. And because the only real viable team to do big damage in phase 1 in any tier is JTR, the lower guilds don't have enough JTRs so while I'm kittening for 7-8M damage in Phase 1 with JTR most are now autoing for under 1M for 5 teams combined.
This is 5 days in and us in the top 3 already have a 5* Traya. Adding the top 5 scores together gives the same amount of damage to the bottom 25 people. We are in an 80M guild and put simply most of these people are bored as hell.
What I see is that you should have retuned T6,5,4,3,2,1 to not have this dumb tenacity mechanic and severely nerfed the health of each phase. Make the guilds that do T6,5,4,3,2,1 be able to finish it in a few hours, a day at the max. The rewards are kitten so you lose nothing and it's not like people can relaunch the raids asap again, at the moment launching back to back boring kitten STR raids is not fun, not fun at all.
Heroic was awesome, everything else is just plain kitten pants.
But T6- it is sooo tedious and unfun experience, I do not really get why HP is so much inflated.
If T6 was same HP as T6 with limited daily attempts, character reset and maybe some mechanics toned down (e.g.Nihillus shield) , it would be quite enjoyable too. Target audience must do it in 4 hrs gameplay max. Else youre looking at futility excercise. Currently it is very very far from "natural progression" from T1->T7.
1) Make toons with Unbreakable Will take no damage, even from annihilate. This would make the phase so much less frustrating, but still challenging.
2) Put UW on the toon that kills the add, so you can control who gets it.
3) Make it consistent whether DN uses annihilate when available. If it is on a 1 turn cooldown, he should either always use it on his second turn, or never.
Any news yet? @CG_SBCrumb
We should just @CG_SBCrumb in every post from here on in until we get a response.
People really hate this raid and when they hate a part of the game that is supposed to be current and important then it starts to affect their overall view of the game.
Any1 know?