@CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
If you had kept on reading you would have seen that mentioned as well.
I have a SLKR (first of my guild) and I'm getting top 3 within my guild the last 3 months.
And still, it's time for socialism. Raid ranking only makes sense when you barely beat the raid. For mature raids doesn't make sense at all. Be inside of top 10, nowadays (for a lot of guilds), it's not linked to ability, resource management or something... it's only linked to luck.
We need more skill driven rewards, not luck driven rewards. What's the point being good at it if all that it takes is being lucky? But first of all, we need more evenly distributed rewards.
Listen to the old man. He knows things.
It is only down to luck if you have multiple people all soloing. If it isn't to that point, ither factors come into play.
Otherwise, there are more factors to getting top 10 than luck.
Check the OP. This whole discussion is based on guilds having more than 10 players Soloing.
Why do you keep trying to limit the conversion to the OP? There are many reasons why the HSith rewards should be revisited.
Darkhelmet1138 clearly missed the context when they read (and responded to) GJO's post. GJO's post was on the topic defined by OP. I just explained it to them. What's your point? Do you even have a point?
Yes, I have a point - and it was clearly stated. You quoted two sentences, and the point was in the second (which you either ignored or didn't read). The HSith rewards have many flaws and there are several reasons they should be revisited. The conversation doesn't need to be limited to guilds that have 10+ SLKR right now.
As a response to my comment it was pointless for the reason previously given.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
@CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
Find my previous response to you in your quoted text - or here:
@CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid.
That already happens. If you know your top 10 is all SLK and you don't have SLK, there is no incentive to try.
You can change that by getting SLKR currently. Or maybe we just need a couple more marques that make it soloable by more teams. If the rewards are the same no matter what you score, then there is no way you can change that. And if you think it'll be everyone getting fully crafted pieces, you're dreaming.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
I never said it would be quick. But he's been out for quite awhile and he's been known to solo the raid for quite awhile. So if you really wanted to solo the raid, you probably could have had him by now.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
How about leave the top 10 rewards alone as they are. Make the next groupings of 10 have similar rewards to the current ones now with a slightly lesser chance for full crafts. Simple
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
It may be getting there for some of the top guilds. But there are still other guilds to consider.
In a guild of 50 slkr teams, then completely even rewards make sense.
But I highly doubt that is the norm for most guilds. I think that there are still a ton of guilds that either have no SLKR or just one or two.
And I don't think rewards should be changed just to appease a few whale guilds.
If and when it gets to the point that everyone has SLKR, then a sim is the better option since by then the raid would be boring.
How about leave the top 10 rewards alone as they are. Make the next groupings of 10 have similar rewards to the current ones now with a slightly lesser chance for full crafts. Simple
I'd be ok with that. Unfortunately, we all know with CG, that a change likely won't result in more total rewards being given out.
And if they are unwilling to increase total rewards, the increase of rewards at the bottom will mean a decrease of rewards in the top 10.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
It may be getting there for some of the top guilds. But there are still other guilds to consider.
In a guild of 50 slkr teams, then completely even rewards make sense.
But I highly doubt that is the norm for most guilds. I think that there are still a ton of guilds that either have no SLKR or just one or two.
And I don't think rewards should be changed just to appease a few whale guilds.
If and when it gets to the point that everyone has SLKR, then a sim is the better option since by then the raid would be boring.
I'm not saying completley even, just more fair, since we are getting back to the double blind RNG fest of rewards.
I am not saying every guild is there, but as SLKR is one of the more highly recommended GLs at this point (the raid being one of those reasons), we are on the path to guilds having 10+ solos. It doesnt take 50 SLKRs.
This is also not the only way to "solo" a raid, it's just the fastest, and one one person in the guild can do it, all other solos become at the will of leadership or that one player to impose rules to help others. That's great and all, but it's getting to the point that something should be addressed, because it is visible on the horizon (and some are already there) and it's best to stay slightly ahead of these things.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
It may be getting there for some of the top guilds. But there are still other guilds to consider.
In a guild of 50 slkr teams, then completely even rewards make sense.
But I highly doubt that is the norm for most guilds. I think that there are still a ton of guilds that either have no SLKR or just one or two.
And I don't think rewards should be changed just to appease a few whale guilds.
If and when it gets to the point that everyone has SLKR, then a sim is the better option since by then the raid would be boring.
I'm not saying completley even, just more fair, since we are getting back to the double blind RNG fest of rewards.
I am not saying every guild is there, but as SLKR is one of the more highly recommended GLs at this point (the raid being one of those reasons), we are on the path to guilds having 10+ solos. It doesnt take 50 SLKRs.
This is also not the only way to "solo" a raid, it's just the fastest, and one one person in the guild can do it, all other solos become at the will of leadership or that one player to impose rules to help others. That's great and all, but it's getting to the point that something should be addressed, because it is visible on the horizon (and some are already there) and it's best to stay slightly ahead of these things.
I don't see the rng of 20 solos as that big of deal. Sure you'll end up outside the top 10 about half the time and the other half you'll get top 10. It isn't a game breaking issues.
I agree something should be done to fix the raids from the power creep. I just think that this has been an issue long enough that a better solution than just changing the rewards should already be in the works.
If it's not, then it is better to take a couple more months to fix it right than to roll out a reward change that does very little to fix it and actually breaks it worse for some smaller guilds.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
It may be getting there for some of the top guilds. But there are still other guilds to consider.
In a guild of 50 slkr teams, then completely even rewards make sense.
But I highly doubt that is the norm for most guilds. I think that there are still a ton of guilds that either have no SLKR or just one or two.
And I don't think rewards should be changed just to appease a few whale guilds.
If and when it gets to the point that everyone has SLKR, then a sim is the better option since by then the raid would be boring.
I'm not saying completley even, just more fair, since we are getting back to the double blind RNG fest of rewards.
I am not saying every guild is there, but as SLKR is one of the more highly recommended GLs at this point (the raid being one of those reasons), we are on the path to guilds having 10+ solos. It doesnt take 50 SLKRs.
This is also not the only way to "solo" a raid, it's just the fastest, and one one person in the guild can do it, all other solos become at the will of leadership or that one player to impose rules to help others. That's great and all, but it's getting to the point that something should be addressed, because it is visible on the horizon (and some are already there) and it's best to stay slightly ahead of these things.
I don't see the rng of 20 solos as that big of deal. Sure you'll end up outside the top 10 about half the time and the other half you'll get top 10. It isn't a game breaking issues.
I agree something should be done to fix the raids from the power creep. I just think that this has been an issue long enough that a better solution than just changing the rewards should already be in the works.
If it's not, then it is better to take a couple more months to fix it right than to roll out a reward change that does very little to fix it and actually breaks it worse for some smaller guilds.
of course its not game breaking, but once it gets to that point (or just 11), its only getting worse from that point on.
more even rewards can never be bad for a lower GP guild.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
In that case would you still call it merc'ing? I wouldn't (as previously stated). Not when it's the guild helping out that one player and not the other way around.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
Do you know any guilds that accepts that their members merc if it messes up their TB or TW? Which one? And they let the merc back in after messing up their TB/TW?
so again, it is not a win for everyone.
I still doubt that guilds let their members merc if it messes up their TB/TW. I don't know any that would accept it myself but ok, if (IF) you know it happens, I guess you're right.
It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
It's apparently worth the hassle (as previously stated).
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Yes, the top-heavy reward structure has been discussed before - also when it was introduced back in '18. The main issue stated back then was the unevenness it created within guilds. SLKR (the ability to solo) solves that issue.
As previously stated:
I believe the main problem now is that players who have been used to taking top-10 rewards consistently now have a hard time sharing the cake with their guild mates. SLKR didn't create any new issues for players that already merc'ed (or did raids with alt guilds) before SLKR was released.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
In that case would you still call it merc'ing? I wouldn't (as previously stated). Not when it's the guild helping out that one player and not the other way around.
I have seen guild let players in just because it makes it simpler for them to beat it, but they can do it on their own. it doesn't matter what you call it. it may be an advantage for them, but not necessarily a "win" since they can do it on their own.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
Do you know any guilds that accepts that their members merc if it messes up their TB or TW? Which one? And they let the merc back in after messing up their TB/TW?
no and that was my point. its no longer a win for the player who wants to merc because now they can't.
this was stated be a win for everyone, and that is simply not true.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone.
I still doubt that guilds let their members merc if it messes up their TB/TW. I don't know any that would accept it myself but ok, if (IF) you know it happens, I guess you're right.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
It's apparently worth the hassle (as previously stated).
right now it can be, but that starts to get compounded as more players "need" to do this. we are just now starting to approach the tipping point. as the numbers go up, it starts to be come more of an issue, and thats not just for the people who do it, but the leaders on all ends. ("Think of the children" meme here, replaced with Leaders/Officers)
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
Yes, the top-heavy reward structure has been discussed before - also when it was introduced back in '18. The main issue stated back then was the unevenness it created within guilds. SLKR (the ability to solo) solves that issue.
As previously stated:
I believe the main problem now is that players who have been used to taking top-10 rewards consistently now have a hard time sharing the cake with their guild mates. SLKR didn't create any new issues for players that already merc'ed (or did raids with alt guilds) before SLKR was released.
The issue up until now could be solved through development. if you wanted better rewards you could "earn them" through making a better team or more teams, or other development practices.
SLKR is the peak of this. now we are at the point where we are approaching saturation, where it is no longer anything to do with development and it starts falling to RNG, then as you pass 10 SLKR, you are now not only subject to prize box RNG, but also RNG that simply removes the chance of getting some of the most prized rewards.
merc-ing has always been an option and always will be, but again if the root cause of the issue is not addressed, then there is no solution, just pushing the problem down the road. The point is to get ahead of this now, because a solution will take months when it does get decided to "be needed".
Merc-ing is not a solution, just an option to ignore a problem that is approaching.
at this point, i fully expect this to be ignored, until simming or a new tier of raid is available.
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
In that case would you still call it merc'ing? I wouldn't (as previously stated). Not when it's the guild helping out that one player and not the other way around.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
Do you know any guilds that accepts that their members merc if it messes up their TB or TW? Which one? And they let the merc back in after messing up their TB/TW?
so again, it is not a win for everyone.
I still doubt that guilds let their members merc if it messes up their TB/TW. I don't know any that would accept it myself but ok, if (IF) you know it happens, I guess you're right.
It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
It's apparently worth the hassle (as previously stated).
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Yes, the top-heavy reward structure has been discussed before - also when it was introduced back in '18. The main issue stated back then was the unevenness it created within guilds. SLKR (the ability to solo) solves that issue.
As previously stated:
I believe the main problem now is that players who have been used to taking top-10 rewards consistently now have a hard time sharing the cake with their guild mates. SLKR didn't create any new issues for players that already merc'ed (or did raids with alt guilds) before SLKR was released.
I don’t get this “ apparently worth the hassle” argument.
If mods didn’t stay on your toons (meaning you had to place mods on each toon before each battle) you’d place them for each battle (because it would be “worth the hassle”).
Or a better example:
I have to manually select my fleet team for each battle. It’s “worth the hassle” to do that each time.
That doesn’t mean that it’s a good system, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be a better solution, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pursue one.
So yes: for some players, mercing is “worth the hassle” to get around the poor raid reward distribution. That doesn’t mean that a better system wouldn’t be welcomed.
It’s clearly a work around used in absence of a better system.
Maybe some players like the thrill of a good merc run, but in this case we are talking about a majority of players doing it out of “necessity” more than “for fun”.
So what is your point of saying this over and over again?
CG_Doja_Fett the Sith raid rewards are being a big problem in top guilds as more and more players are able to easily solo but get poor rewards
CG previously implemented a uniform reward when introducing g12+ but nerfed the reward pool. I think returning to that with top 10 rewards or some extension of the reward pool from top 10 to top 25 needs to be done or so
How would extending the top-10 to top-25 reward pool help players who end up at rank 26 when Soloing? How would your suggestion solve anything?
The problem is automatically solved as more and more players in the guild can solo the raid. With many (or even all) players able to solo the raid the rewards will autonaticaly be distributed more evenly the more raids you complete, since the order in case of ties is random. Sometimes you'll rank high - sometimes low. It all evens out over a large number of raids.
Expecting an entire guild gradually solo a raid is not a solution, if anything, it's a disgrace.
Check the OP. The whole reason for this discussion is that in top guilds many players are able to solo the raid. That's what we are discussing - not the reward structure in general.
Still: Having many (or all) players able to solo the raid solves the problem and @Ultra's suggestion doesn't.
I'm in one of those guilds (330m+) and it didn't solve anything, it will not solve anything as time goes by either. There's now the reemergence of mercing. Almost half of the guild is constantly moving to merc. I bet you are aware of the resurgence of the merc market in the preceding months. This is not healthy for the game whatsoever.
It distributes the raid rewards more evenly among the guild members of your guild. It solved the problem of an uneven distribution where top-10 won an extra rewards chest. When mercing it's a win-win situation - both for the mercenaries and for the guild they are helping out.
And for the guild the mercs temporarily leaves. The merc gets top 10 and that let's 1 one other member that wouldn't have gotten top 10 get it. So that guild gets 11 members with top 10 rewards and is stronger for it.
Mercing is not an appropriate solution to terrible rewards.
It's an option - not a solution. If choosing that option everybody wins.
That's an opinion. First off, it's a hassle for the players mercing and the officers of both guilds. Second, the player mercing is either replacing someone in the guild they are mercing for or taking rewards that would be someone else's based on where they finish.
I've been a merc, I've been an officer, and I've been in a guild that brought in a merc or two. Not everybody wins.
1. It's apparently worth the Hassle.
2. The merc helps the guild they are merc'ing for either complete a raid they would orherwise not complete or complete it faster. Hence a win for them. If a guild takes in a player for one raid without having any benefit (the guild helps out the one player and not the other way around) I wouldn't call it merc'ing.
Yes, everybody wins with merc'ing.
Merc and 2 guilds. But ok, the player which was replaced doesn't win unless they can have a raid with the merc's guild.
its an option not a solution and in many cases, basically anywhere where you have more than 20 people with SLKR, not everyone wins. you basically have to gut your guild 2 times a week to get players into the top10.
option - yes absolutely win - not really, except for those who want to do it and can find a guild looking for the help.
solution - far cry from even being called that, especially as we approach a saturation point on SLKR.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
In that case would you still call it merc'ing? I wouldn't (as previously stated). Not when it's the guild helping out that one player and not the other way around.
I have seen guild let players in just because it makes it simpler for them to beat it, but they can do it on their own. it doesn't matter what you call it. it may be an advantage for them, but not necessarily a "win" since they can do it on their own.
I would call making it simpler to beat the raid a win as well. (if you check my previous comments I actually mentioned that case as a win as well)
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
Do you know any guilds that accepts that their members merc if it messes up their TB or TW? Which one? And they let the merc back in after messing up their TB/TW?
no and that was my point. its no longer a win for the player who wants to merc because now they can't.
this was stated be a win for everyone, and that is simply not true.
So, you're saying that merc'ing takes place when it doesn't mess with TB/TW - and it's the same for everyone. So what do you mean by "... because now they can't"? Who can't? And why? And why is it even relevant that they don't win while nobody mercs?
It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
It's apparently worth the hassle (as previously stated).
right now it can be, but that starts to get compounded as more players "need" to do this. we are just now starting to approach the tipping point. as the numbers go up, it starts to be come more of an issue, and thats not just for the people who do it, but the leaders on all ends. ("Think of the children" meme here, replaced with Leaders/Officers)
Nobody needs to do it. I'm in 2 guilds with approximately 30 SLKRs each. In one guild players merc'ed even before SLKR ( but far from everybody does it). In the other guild there's no merc'ing (even if it would be accepted). Merc'ing is a choice.
Yes, the top-heavy reward structure has been discussed before - also when it was introduced back in '18. The main issue stated back then was the unevenness it created within guilds. SLKR (the ability to solo) solves that issue.
As previously stated:
I believe the main problem now is that players who have been used to taking top-10 rewards consistently now have a hard time sharing the cake with their guild mates. SLKR didn't create any new issues for players that already merc'ed (or did raids with alt guilds) before SLKR was released.
The issue up until now could be solved through development. if you wanted better rewards you could "earn them" through making a better team or more teams, or other development practices.
SLKR is the peak of this. now we are at the point where we are approaching saturation, where it is no longer anything to do with development and it starts falling to RNG, then as you pass 10 SLKR, you are now not only subject to prize box RNG, but also RNG that simply removes the chance of getting some of the most prized rewards.
That's just part of the normal life cycle of raids. They become trivial at some point. When everyone and their grandmothers can solo the raid it comes down to RNG. That's how it is with AAT raids and that's how it was with Rancor raids before it became simmable.
merc-ing has always been an option and always will be, but again if the root cause of the issue is not addressed, then there is no solution, just pushing the problem down the road. The point is to get ahead of this now, because a solution will take months when it does get decided to "be needed".
Merc-ing is not a solution, just an option to ignore a problem that is approaching.
at this point, i fully expect this to be ignored, until simming or a new tier of raid is available.
Simming would not remove the benefit you get by merc'ing (assuming it will be designed similar to the simming of Rancor raids). Players would still benefit from merc'ing to guilds that can't sim yet.
A new raid tier (or a new raid altogether) would be great (if AAT and STR became simmable as well).
PS. I don't know why you included that long quote multiple times in your response. I tried cleaning it up.
So, you're saying that merc'ing takes place when it doesn't mess with TB/TW - and it's the same for everyone. So what do you mean by "... because now they can't"? Who can't? And why? And why is it even relevant that they don't win while nobody mercs?
if its a "win" all around for being able to merc, and that is the solutions to the rewards structure, then when you can't do it, its not a win, and not a viable solution. that happens when it conflicts with TW/TBs. so there are times when the win for everyone, is not a win.
again, this was declared a win all around, but yet here its not.
Nobody needs to do it. I'm in 2 guilds with approximately 30 SLKRs each. In one guild players merc'ed even before SLKR ( but far from everybody does it). In the other guild there's no merc'ing (even if it would be accepted). Merc'ing is a choice.
correct it is a choice, but it is also being stated to be "the solution". so if rewards are never going to be changed, then the only other option for players who want better rewards is to take this solution and run with it. thats why i used "" around need. as we approach a saturation point for SLKR, more players are going to want this and/or get frustrated by this and have only to merc as an option. sure not everyone does it but the number will grow if this is truly the only way.
That's just part of the normal life cycle of raids. They become trivial at some point. When everyone and their grandmothers can solo the raid it comes down to RNG. That's how it is with AAT raids and that's how it was with Rancor raids before it became simmable.
correct this is the normal cycle, and since we were told that simming is a long ways off, why not address the rewards distribution now.
yes rancor was the first one and it took way too long to get the sim option on that, just suggesting they get ahead of the problem rather than let it fester.
Simming would not remove the benefit you get by merc'ing (assuming it will be designed similar to the simming of Rancor raids). Players would still benefit from merc'ing to guilds that can't sim yet.
A new raid tier (or a new raid altogether) would be great (if AAT and STR became simmable as well).
I never said it wouldn't remove the benefit, but it would address the issue better then leaving it as is. I'm not trying to stop mercing, just suggesting that it being the only option to avoid RNG deciding your fate on some of the best rewards in game. which Rancor was no longer offering when it went to sim.
PS. I don't know why you included that long quote multiple times in your response. I tried cleaning it up.
I am so used to using the forum on my phone that when i'm at a PC, stuff like that doesn't bother me, its so much easier to edit to what was said, and just leave the rest if it will just be nested anyway.
but just to make you smile, i did slim this one down a bit.
Don’t know if it’s been said previously. Didn’t read all the posts.
But our mercs came about because of all the slkr we have and continue to grow.
Them leaving helps other to get higher on the ladder.
People aren’t going to a guild that can already do sith raid. That would just be stupid.
What they have done is create a fake guild, fill it with people that don’t have a guild because they are new or people that leave a weaker guild that isn’t doing the raid for this guild that can.
Our 10 members are helping these people that would never see HSTR for years to come get traya ASAP.
So if stopping mercing or feeling like you have to merc is the goal (which it shouldn't be but that seems to be what some want). Let's look at the proposed solutions through this lens.
1. Flattening the rewards - Now one of two things will happen. Either everyone gets roughly equal rewards (probably not top 10 rewards) and there's no reason to merc because top 10 rewards are as bad as the bottom 40. Or the top 10 rewards will be quite a bit better still and people will still merc. So not a good option.
2. Simming - It could work but only if the rewards are good enough to be at least equivalent to the top 10 otherwise you still have mercing. And I doubt they are going to just hand out full crafts to everyone. But if they did I'd be fine with it. But from the experience with rancor, that likely won't be the case.
3. A sim for low rewards combined with an individual raid for the opportunity for higher rewards. This solves the apparent mercing problem since you can get top rewards if you can solo. This would also not be unreasonable since it wouldn't require top rewards to go to everyone. Only to those that have the teams to do high damage and take the time to do so. I would venture a guess there would be a fairly large amount of people that would still put minimal effort in and get the lower rewards.
Replies
As a response to my comment it was pointless for the reason previously given.
Merc'ing is also a win for the guild accepting the merc and for the merc's home guild. They all get more rewards.
The merc's home guild is not gutted in any way when the merc brings back more rewards than the guild would otherwise have received. The guild receives top rank rewards for the loss of bottom rank rewards. It helps the guild grow.
Find my previous response to you in your quoted text - or here:
only if they can't beat it without the merc.
if 10+ members of your guild need to leave each time to do raids elsewhere, you gut your guild each time they leave.
this also comes to other problems, when raid schedules cross with TW and TB.
so again, it is not a win for everyone. It also usually leads to a more stressful game play scenario with all the moving and leaders planning alts and other things.
i'm not saying can't be done, or that some dont enjoy doing it, but its not a win, and its a far cry from a solution to the real problem which is the rewards structure in an event where an increasing number can now solo, and there is a simple path for others to follow to gain this ability.
Ok I understand your stance on mercing and it's an acceptable one. Your logic seems sound. I appreciate the reasoned arguement much more than simply saying over and over that it isn't a solution.
My view is that it is a possible solution that players can use while no dev solution seems to be coming. And in my opinion of the "doesn't require the dev solutions", it is at least a viable one for some.
I would be interested in what solution you propose. Would it be just addressing the rewards or maybe a solution like simming or individual raids?
solution is a strong word to describe the current situation or any situation until there is a change by the dev team.
it is an option, and a far cry form a viable solution, especially as time moves forward (approaching the saturation point of SLKR)
it does require dev action, as there is nothing the player base can do to solve this for the guild, as this is a guild event, they have an option for themselves. it is an option, not a solution.
We have been told simming is a ways off, and the idea of this becoming an individual raid is probably not in the cards.
The rewards for this should be addressed, there is no need for the current structure to exist any more. even before Kylo this should have been flatted to some extent to allow for a better rewards to be brought in at all levels.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think that flattening the rewards structure (though it depends on how much) and doing nothing else doesn't address many of the issues with the raid. It would also just encourage people to hit join and then do nothing while they get rewards almost equilivant to those that actually beat the raid. At that point you might as well just make it simable.
For those reasons, I don't think flattening the rewards is an adequate solution.
so you think the top 10 get similar/equivalent rewards as the lower 40?
I feel like that goes against what was stated about the reward structure, and most sentiments about the rewards I have seen thus far.
I was sticking to the topic at hand which was the rewards structure. I'm not exactly sure what other issues you want to see addressed.
Flattening may have been the wrong use of the term, but just removing the exclusivity of certain rewards from the top 10.
That already happens. If you know your top 10 is all SLK and you don't have SLK, there is no incentive to try.
Yes, it should be simmable.
Currently the top 10 get better rewards than the bottom 40. But if you adjust or flatten or whatever word you want to choose, that won't be the case. And if the rewards are equal or close to it, you remove all incentive to actually play the raid.
And while the topic of this thread is rewards, you have to consider the consequences (intended or otherwise) to changes. Otherwise you just make a change that solves one problem but creates another.
The other problems with the raid that I see.
1. It is beaten so quickly that it is difficult to use your roster's full potential or even run more than one or two teams.
2. The days of nothing to do in the game (not exclusive to the raid) while you only get an hour window to play the raid.
3. The rewards as addressed by others
Changing the rewards alone would address the 3rd one but ignore the other 2. It would also create a potential 4th problem of not rewarding people for actually playing the game. If you can hit join and get similar rewards to the person that clears the raid, there is no point to actually play. Then that makes the not enough to do problem worse.
You can change that by getting SLKR currently. Or maybe we just need a couple more marques that make it soloable by more teams. If the rewards are the same no matter what you score, then there is no way you can change that. And if you think it'll be everyone getting fully crafted pieces, you're dreaming.
Making it simmable without new content just makes the not enough to do problem worse.
you remove the incentive to want to beat out everyone in your guild (the group you are supposed to want to be with) to take better rewards and technically "give them less". I agree with that.
this is still going to be a primary farming source for those materials, so there is still an incentive to join and play if someone else is not going to finish it for you, but also gives you an "option to play" if you want to.
I see your point, but dont feel like changing this raid is the way to address those "larger concerns" about the game. Not to say it couldn't but at this point this raid is already on the "outs", and addressing the larger issue with game play and wanting things to do would probably be better served by something that is less repetitive, and has more growth potential for moving forward.
LOL oh sure lemme just grab him right quick.
It all depends on whether you like competition within your guild. I like the goal of trying to get better to compete for the better rewards. Some people don't.
I have never had anyone in one of my guilds get mad because someone scored better than them. Usually just a question about what team they used and how to make it work. I think that is much better than just joining and getting some level of rewards.
I never said it would be quick. But he's been out for quite awhile and he's been known to solo the raid for quite awhile. So if you really wanted to solo the raid, you probably could have had him by now.
Rewards will always be better at the top, so that is always there.
The real issue is that we are getting to a point where "what team did you use" isn't going to be the question, because we all know, and "how you did better than me" isn't really a thing. we are approaching a point where its going to just be "who had better RNG" when placed in order for our rewards, since 15, 20, 30.... soloed the raid.
that is why they should be addressed, because I agree with everything you just said, but we are moving through/past that time now.
It may be getting there for some of the top guilds. But there are still other guilds to consider.
In a guild of 50 slkr teams, then completely even rewards make sense.
But I highly doubt that is the norm for most guilds. I think that there are still a ton of guilds that either have no SLKR or just one or two.
And I don't think rewards should be changed just to appease a few whale guilds.
If and when it gets to the point that everyone has SLKR, then a sim is the better option since by then the raid would be boring.
I'd be ok with that. Unfortunately, we all know with CG, that a change likely won't result in more total rewards being given out.
And if they are unwilling to increase total rewards, the increase of rewards at the bottom will mean a decrease of rewards in the top 10.
I'm not saying completley even, just more fair, since we are getting back to the double blind RNG fest of rewards.
I am not saying every guild is there, but as SLKR is one of the more highly recommended GLs at this point (the raid being one of those reasons), we are on the path to guilds having 10+ solos. It doesnt take 50 SLKRs.
This is also not the only way to "solo" a raid, it's just the fastest, and one one person in the guild can do it, all other solos become at the will of leadership or that one player to impose rules to help others. That's great and all, but it's getting to the point that something should be addressed, because it is visible on the horizon (and some are already there) and it's best to stay slightly ahead of these things.
I don't see the rng of 20 solos as that big of deal. Sure you'll end up outside the top 10 about half the time and the other half you'll get top 10. It isn't a game breaking issues.
I agree something should be done to fix the raids from the power creep. I just think that this has been an issue long enough that a better solution than just changing the rewards should already be in the works.
If it's not, then it is better to take a couple more months to fix it right than to roll out a reward change that does very little to fix it and actually breaks it worse for some smaller guilds.
of course its not game breaking, but once it gets to that point (or just 11), its only getting worse from that point on.
more even rewards can never be bad for a lower GP guild.
In that case would you still call it merc'ing? I wouldn't (as previously stated). Not when it's the guild helping out that one player and not the other way around.
Do you know any guilds that accepts that their members merc if it messes up their TB or TW? Which one? And they let the merc back in after messing up their TB/TW?
I still doubt that guilds let their members merc if it messes up their TB/TW. I don't know any that would accept it myself but ok, if (IF) you know it happens, I guess you're right.
It's apparently worth the hassle (as previously stated).
Yes, the top-heavy reward structure has been discussed before - also when it was introduced back in '18. The main issue stated back then was the unevenness it created within guilds. SLKR (the ability to solo) solves that issue.
As previously stated:
I believe the main problem now is that players who have been used to taking top-10 rewards consistently now have a hard time sharing the cake with their guild mates. SLKR didn't create any new issues for players that already merc'ed (or did raids with alt guilds) before SLKR was released.
I have seen guild let players in just because it makes it simpler for them to beat it, but they can do it on their own. it doesn't matter what you call it. it may be an advantage for them, but not necessarily a "win" since they can do it on their own.
no and that was my point. its no longer a win for the player who wants to merc because now they can't.
this was stated be a win for everyone, and that is simply not true.
see above
right now it can be, but that starts to get compounded as more players "need" to do this. we are just now starting to approach the tipping point. as the numbers go up, it starts to be come more of an issue, and thats not just for the people who do it, but the leaders on all ends. ("Think of the children" meme here, replaced with Leaders/Officers)
The issue up until now could be solved through development. if you wanted better rewards you could "earn them" through making a better team or more teams, or other development practices.
SLKR is the peak of this. now we are at the point where we are approaching saturation, where it is no longer anything to do with development and it starts falling to RNG, then as you pass 10 SLKR, you are now not only subject to prize box RNG, but also RNG that simply removes the chance of getting some of the most prized rewards.
merc-ing has always been an option and always will be, but again if the root cause of the issue is not addressed, then there is no solution, just pushing the problem down the road. The point is to get ahead of this now, because a solution will take months when it does get decided to "be needed".
Merc-ing is not a solution, just an option to ignore a problem that is approaching.
at this point, i fully expect this to be ignored, until simming or a new tier of raid is available.
I don’t get this “ apparently worth the hassle” argument.
If mods didn’t stay on your toons (meaning you had to place mods on each toon before each battle) you’d place them for each battle (because it would be “worth the hassle”).
Or a better example:
I have to manually select my fleet team for each battle. It’s “worth the hassle” to do that each time.
That doesn’t mean that it’s a good system, it doesn’t mean that there can’t be a better solution, it doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pursue one.
So yes: for some players, mercing is “worth the hassle” to get around the poor raid reward distribution. That doesn’t mean that a better system wouldn’t be welcomed.
It’s clearly a work around used in absence of a better system.
Maybe some players like the thrill of a good merc run, but in this case we are talking about a majority of players doing it out of “necessity” more than “for fun”.
So what is your point of saying this over and over again?
I would call making it simpler to beat the raid a win as well. (if you check my previous comments I actually mentioned that case as a win as well)
So, you're saying that merc'ing takes place when it doesn't mess with TB/TW - and it's the same for everyone. So what do you mean by "... because now they can't"? Who can't? And why? And why is it even relevant that they don't win while nobody mercs?
Nobody needs to do it. I'm in 2 guilds with approximately 30 SLKRs each. In one guild players merc'ed even before SLKR ( but far from everybody does it). In the other guild there's no merc'ing (even if it would be accepted). Merc'ing is a choice.
That's just part of the normal life cycle of raids. They become trivial at some point. When everyone and their grandmothers can solo the raid it comes down to RNG. That's how it is with AAT raids and that's how it was with Rancor raids before it became simmable.
Simming would not remove the benefit you get by merc'ing (assuming it will be designed similar to the simming of Rancor raids). Players would still benefit from merc'ing to guilds that can't sim yet.
A new raid tier (or a new raid altogether) would be great (if AAT and STR became simmable as well).
PS. I don't know why you included that long quote multiple times in your response. I tried cleaning it up.
ok sure its a win.
if its a "win" all around for being able to merc, and that is the solutions to the rewards structure, then when you can't do it, its not a win, and not a viable solution. that happens when it conflicts with TW/TBs. so there are times when the win for everyone, is not a win.
again, this was declared a win all around, but yet here its not.
correct it is a choice, but it is also being stated to be "the solution". so if rewards are never going to be changed, then the only other option for players who want better rewards is to take this solution and run with it. thats why i used "" around need. as we approach a saturation point for SLKR, more players are going to want this and/or get frustrated by this and have only to merc as an option. sure not everyone does it but the number will grow if this is truly the only way.
correct this is the normal cycle, and since we were told that simming is a long ways off, why not address the rewards distribution now.
yes rancor was the first one and it took way too long to get the sim option on that, just suggesting they get ahead of the problem rather than let it fester.
I never said it wouldn't remove the benefit, but it would address the issue better then leaving it as is. I'm not trying to stop mercing, just suggesting that it being the only option to avoid RNG deciding your fate on some of the best rewards in game. which Rancor was no longer offering when it went to sim.
I am so used to using the forum on my phone that when i'm at a PC, stuff like that doesn't bother me, its so much easier to edit to what was said, and just leave the rest if it will just be nested anyway.
but just to make you smile, i did slim this one down a bit.
But our mercs came about because of all the slkr we have and continue to grow.
Them leaving helps other to get higher on the ladder.
People aren’t going to a guild that can already do sith raid. That would just be stupid.
What they have done is create a fake guild, fill it with people that don’t have a guild because they are new or people that leave a weaker guild that isn’t doing the raid for this guild that can.
Our 10 members are helping these people that would never see HSTR for years to come get traya ASAP.
1. Flattening the rewards - Now one of two things will happen. Either everyone gets roughly equal rewards (probably not top 10 rewards) and there's no reason to merc because top 10 rewards are as bad as the bottom 40. Or the top 10 rewards will be quite a bit better still and people will still merc. So not a good option.
2. Simming - It could work but only if the rewards are good enough to be at least equivalent to the top 10 otherwise you still have mercing. And I doubt they are going to just hand out full crafts to everyone. But if they did I'd be fine with it. But from the experience with rancor, that likely won't be the case.
3. A sim for low rewards combined with an individual raid for the opportunity for higher rewards. This solves the apparent mercing problem since you can get top rewards if you can solo. This would also not be unreasonable since it wouldn't require top rewards to go to everyone. Only to those that have the teams to do high damage and take the time to do so. I would venture a guess there would be a fairly large amount of people that would still put minimal effort in and get the lower rewards.