Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
Other guild events (territory battles) give equal rewards to everyone
The launch of the sith raid says hi remember me?
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
Those things were valid. Event is too hard for current guild, find new guild. Upper players will do that. Guilds settle in at their expected levels.
This is different, because of the timing mechanism.
My point was just that you shouldn't claim other guild events give equal rewards when it's (a) not fully correct and (b) not relevant to the actual issue here.
I didn't say 'all guild events give equal rewards'. I said other guild events do give equal rewards and gave an example (territory battles) as well as quoting the dev's message regarding rewards for this guild event.
And for what it's worth, there are plenty of posts here complaining about the non-flattened rewards so I believe it is relevant to the issue here. The stacking mechanic is not the only issue with this raid.
1) ok fair point on "other" vs "all"
2) I disagree on the rewards but again ok.
If they do something about the "everyone has to be on at once" issue I think the raid is fine as is.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Here's a wild suggestion: Maybe both the difficulty and the coordination are breaking up guilds?
Some guilds will break up because only a portion of the players are "rancor ready", other guilds will break up because they are all "rancor ready" but unable to align raid times?
I know it's a crazy suggestion, but Kyno do have a point with some of the posts he have replied to.
Some of the breaking up of guilds is what we've seen every time something new is released, some of the breaking up is because of the horrible mechanic. Which should be changed.
It is one thing if new content is too difficult for a guild and they break up because of it and new content that breaks up guilds because a majority of the guild needs to find 2-3 hours they can all be on and then coordinate it and use airplane mode.
Difficulty breaking up a guild is just the way it goes.
Majority of the guild having to be online, using Discord and spending a few hours waiting for perfect coordination is a whole different thing.
Why wasn't Cobb Vanth shards a reward for the Krayt Dragon raid? Why wasn't Endor Gear Luke shards a reward for the Speeder Bike raid?
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Here's a wild suggestion: Maybe both the difficulty and the coordination are breaking up guilds?
Some guilds will break up because only a portion of the players are "rancor ready", other guilds will break up because they are all "rancor ready" but unable to align raid times?
I know it's a crazy suggestion, but Kyno do have a point with some of the posts he have replied to.
Some of the breaking up of guilds is what we've seen every time something new is released, some of the breaking up is because of the horrible mechanic. Which should be changed.
Trust me, it's all about the coordination thing, and that also really is only a problem in p4 as there are simply no real high dmg teams for p4 - you're pretty much happy if you can get a 4-5% score. Now that 80%+ SLKR in p1 is currently the highscore I think but let's not assume people are constantly able to score that but getting ~50% is very much possible - obviously less dmg in p2/3 but then those people can use Rey in p1.
Raid phases 1-3 could be probably be done with like 5-6 people throwing in their Rey's in p1, SLKR's in p2+3 (and maybe some Padme's to fill up) but p4 is impossible right now. And not because guilds don't have enough material (50x JKR, GAS, JKL saved up for p4 would be enough already) but simply because enough people need to post their scores simultaneously - aka coordination.
Difficulty is not a problem - the coordination to avoid the stacking mechanic (in p4) is.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Here's a wild suggestion: Maybe both the difficulty and the coordination are breaking up guilds?
Some guilds will break up because only a portion of the players are "rancor ready", other guilds will break up because they are all "rancor ready" but unable to align raid times?
I know it's a crazy suggestion, but Kyno do have a point with some of the posts he have replied to.
Some of the breaking up of guilds is what we've seen every time something new is released, some of the breaking up is because of the horrible mechanic. Which should be changed.
Trust me, it's all about the coordination thing, and that also really is only a problem in p4 as there are simply no real high dmg teams for p4 - you're pretty much happy if you can get a 4-5% score. Now that 80%+ SLKR in p1 is currently the highscore I think but let's not assume people are constantly able to score that but getting ~50% is very much possible - obviously less dmg in p2/3 but then those people can use Rey in p1.
Raid phases 1-3 could be probably be done with like 5-6 people throwing in their Rey's in p1, SLKR's in p2+3 (and maybe some Padme's to fill up) but p4 is impossible right now. And not because guilds don't have enough material (50x JKR, GAS, JKL saved up for p4 would be enough already) but simply because enough people need to post their scores simultaneously - aka coordination.
Difficulty is not a problem - the coordination to avoid the stacking mechanic (in p4) is.
All this and not to mention it in any of those runs in p1-p3 and the mechanic triggers when the boss is below 40% or 20%, say goodnight.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
.
Do you have data or even anectodes to show for this claim for this particular raid or are you just assuming that can possibly be one of the cases? Any exit interviews that you expect from others?
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
It’s a huge stretch to compare this raid to preloading turn meter, because the worst that happens with preloaded turn meter is your guild gets 2nd place rewards instead of 1st, and there’s not even that much of a difference. Whereas with this raid, someone messing up in phase 4 means your entire guild is probably getting nothing. Zilch. Zero.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
*Zohan Voice*: So let’s go
I’m not saying those aren’t the reasons from the past or denying it’s happened. However the reasons you’ve listed such as difficulty, never caused this much blowback. Why? Because eventually with progression in gear and rosters, the difficulty balances out eventually. Even LSGeoTB. The thing that was the bane of my existence with R7 Padme teams getting flattened in wave 1 in P1 of the event before even getting a move has become more bearable with roster expansions, mods etc. It’s still overtuned nonsense but it’s getting better. That much is true.
The stacking mechanic and coordination won’t get better with roster development. Why? Because even R7 GL teams get obliterated if one or two of the stacking thresholds gets broken because of crashes, or miscommunication, or AP mode not being turned on properly. What happens then? The entire run is gone. There should not be this much coordination required for a mobile game to the point that this raid is forcing.
In the past, difficulty causing guilds to fracture was player patience. If they had the roster to do a raid or TB, they could either work with their guild or jump ahead by a couple months to a guild ready now. This mechanic? Forcing people to leave because of where they live. Years long guilds, friends, teammates forced to leave or go elsewhere because of time zones or personal responsibility and real life time constraints. Other events don’t matter anywhere near this degree, including TW because you get on and do your runs/hits when you can. To that point, even with people Preloading TM in TW, I don’t think that team gets any sort of ramping damage or speed per attempt....they get boosted TM for sure, but the other stats...ummm no. So no bag for you .
If you agree the mechanic is garbage, as you’ve said, then there’s no more to be said. No comparing to past reasons for guild splits, etc. This is very different and CG’s pushing of this is just disgusting and I really hope the fiscal numbers reflect it so they finally wake up. I stand by what I said that anyone spending money on this game until they fix this mechanic, that’s voiced their opposition to it are just singing hollow complaints and are foolish. I’ve got plenty of iTunes gift cards ready to finish for SLKR and get most of the way to a 3rd GL (current or future), or amping up several other teams. However until they fix this mechanic and show the players they care and are listening, I’ll hang on to them or spend my money elsewhere, and happily so.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
*Zohan Voice*: So let’s go
I’m not saying those aren’t the reasons from the past or denying it’s happened. However the reasons you’ve listed such as difficulty, never caused this much blowback. Why? Because eventually with progression in gear and rosters, the difficulty balances out eventually. Even LSGeoTB. The thing that was the bane of my existence with R7 Padme teams getting flattened in wave 1 in P1 of the event before even getting a move has become more bearable with roster expansions, mods etc. It’s still overtuned nonsense but it’s getting better. That much is true.
The stacking mechanic and coordination won’t get better with roster development. Why? Because even R7 GL teams get obliterated if one or two of the stacking thresholds gets broken because of crashes, or miscommunication, or AP mode not being turned on properly. What happens then? The entire run is gone. There should not be this much coordination required for a mobile game to the point that this raid is forcing.
In the past, difficulty causing guilds to fracture was player patience. If they had the roster to do a raid or TB, they could either work with their guild or jump ahead by a couple months to a guild ready now. This mechanic? Forcing people to leave because of where they live. Years long guilds, friends, teammates forced to leave or go elsewhere because of time zones or personal responsibility and real life time constraints. Other events don’t matter anywhere near this degree, including TW because you get on and do your runs/hits when you can. To that point, even with people Preloading TM in TW, I don’t think that team gets any sort of ramping damage or speed per attempt....they get boosted TM for sure, but the other stats...ummm no. So no bag for you .
If you agree the mechanic is garbage, as you’ve said, then there’s no more to be said. No comparing to past reasons for guild splits, etc. This is very different and CG’s pushing of this is just disgusting and I really hope the fiscal numbers reflect it so they finally wake up. I stand by what I said that anyone spending money on this game until they fix this mechanic, that’s voiced their opposition to it are just singing hollow complaints and are foolish. I’ve got plenty of iTunes gift cards ready to finish for SLKR and get most of the way to a 3rd GL (current or future), or amping up several other teams. However until they fix this mechanic and show the players they care and are listening, I’ll hang on to them or spend my money elsewhere, and happily so.
Difficulty never caused this much blowback? I believe the first month of Sith raid would disagree.
While I agree that the short term roster development doesnt show a whole bunch of promise, this is only the beginning. Also, personal development vs guild wide. Our guild is starting to hit 30-40% over damage per phase, even without dropping runs in previous phases. So there is something there that starts to let you drop some of the AP mode and other stuff, and just make quick burst attacks like we discussed earlier. But who knows what changes will come in the next year.
In the above coordination geta easier since you need to herd less cats. But I agree this is still not good enough and other than some similar (not the same) levels of TW coordination, this is unusual and not ideal.
I would consider this a very top view and guilds in the lower 1/3 or not able to do it could be losing players who have the r5 characters to do it but not enough guild support, so again there are similarities. Saying difficulty is not the issue is not neccesarily correct for everyone, it's still an issue for guilds trying to just break into it.
There is always reasons to discuss things, that is a big part of what the Forum is for. Agreeing that something needs to change doesnt help convey how much or in what ways work best to make a change. There is a high likelihood that changes will be made, and that is just as high as the likelyhood of those changes not being everything we want. Discussions like this one help bring into light what changes would have more effect than others.
I have no problem agreeing or disagreeing, or even talking from the other side of an argument (not my side), and sometimes that is a necessary evil to really hash out what's going on at the root of a problem.
As with every that gets released there is always a cry that it is "wrong" and "destroying the game" so discussion is what helps further the understanding of what is actually going on and what can be the focus of change. Some times those crys are just discomfort with "the new" and other times there is a real issue that is hurtful to the player base, and everywhere in between. So there is always room for discussion, and comparisons.
No one would fault you for any personal choices you make, that's what we all do. Cheers.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
*Zohan Voice*: So let’s go
I’m not saying those aren’t the reasons from the past or denying it’s happened. However the reasons you’ve listed such as difficulty, never caused this much blowback. Why? Because eventually with progression in gear and rosters, the difficulty balances out eventually. Even LSGeoTB. The thing that was the bane of my existence with R7 Padme teams getting flattened in wave 1 in P1 of the event before even getting a move has become more bearable with roster expansions, mods etc. It’s still overtuned nonsense but it’s getting better. That much is true.
The stacking mechanic and coordination won’t get better with roster development. Why? Because even R7 GL teams get obliterated if one or two of the stacking thresholds gets broken because of crashes, or miscommunication, or AP mode not being turned on properly. What happens then? The entire run is gone. There should not be this much coordination required for a mobile game to the point that this raid is forcing.
In the past, difficulty causing guilds to fracture was player patience. If they had the roster to do a raid or TB, they could either work with their guild or jump ahead by a couple months to a guild ready now. This mechanic? Forcing people to leave because of where they live. Years long guilds, friends, teammates forced to leave or go elsewhere because of time zones or personal responsibility and real life time constraints. Other events don’t matter anywhere near this degree, including TW because you get on and do your runs/hits when you can. To that point, even with people Preloading TM in TW, I don’t think that team gets any sort of ramping damage or speed per attempt....they get boosted TM for sure, but the other stats...ummm no. So no bag for you .
If you agree the mechanic is garbage, as you’ve said, then there’s no more to be said. No comparing to past reasons for guild splits, etc. This is very different and CG’s pushing of this is just disgusting and I really hope the fiscal numbers reflect it so they finally wake up. I stand by what I said that anyone spending money on this game until they fix this mechanic, that’s voiced their opposition to it are just singing hollow complaints and are foolish. I’ve got plenty of iTunes gift cards ready to finish for SLKR and get most of the way to a 3rd GL (current or future), or amping up several other teams. However until they fix this mechanic and show the players they care and are listening, I’ll hang on to them or spend my money elsewhere, and happily so.
Difficulty never caused this much blowback? I believe the first month of Sith raid would disagree.
While I agree that the short term roster development doesnt show a whole bunch of promise, this is only the beginning. Also, personal development vs guild wide. Our guild is starting to hit 30-40% over damage per phase, even without dropping runs in previous phases. So there is something there that starts to let you drop some of the AP mode and other stuff, and just make quick burst attacks like we discussed earlier. But who knows what changes will come in the next year.
In the above coordination geta easier since you need to herd less cats. But I agree this is still not good enough and other than some similar (not the same) levels of TW coordination, this is unusual and not ideal.
I would consider this a very top view and guilds in the lower 1/3 or not able to do it could be losing players who have the r5 characters to do it but not enough guild support, so again there are similarities. Saying difficulty is not the issue is not neccesarily correct for everyone, it's still an issue for guilds trying to just break into it.
There is always reasons to discuss things, that is a big part of what the Forum is for. Agreeing that something needs to change doesnt help convey how much or in what ways work best to make a change. There is a high likelihood that changes will be made, and that is just as high as the likelyhood of those changes not being everything we want. Discussions like this one help bring into light what changes would have more effect than others.
I have no problem agreeing or disagreeing, or even talking from the other side of an argument (not my side), and sometimes that is a necessary evil to really hash out what's going on at the root of a problem.
As with every that gets released there is always a cry that it is "wrong" and "destroying the game" so discussion is what helps further the understanding of what is actually going on and what can be the focus of change. Some times those crys are just discomfort with "the new" and other times there is a real issue that is hurtful to the player base, and everywhere in between. So there is always room for discussion, and comparisons.
No one would fault you for any personal choices you make, that's what we all do. Cheers.
Really? Changes that can muster up against the sort of ramping damage? Highly unlikely, unless we are talking a jump in power creep like you saw between Wrath of Lich King and Cataclysm in WoW, which rendered the formers end game raid gear useless to common gear of the later.
Like I said, as long as you agree the universal stacking mechanic is garbage and needs to be changed then that’s good. Everything else I completely disagree with you as my guild has lost 8 members quitting the game outright who had 6.5 mil+ GP and multiple GL’s who said that the Crancor raid mechanics were the last straw. I hope they come back but I don’t see it likely.
I would have agree with Ravens. My limited sample size. My guild had two quit the game over this in the past week. They didn’t move to a stronger guild. 6.2 mil players. The challenge raid and r8 was their breaking point. With the Sith raid we did see people move to stronger guilds...not with this. I am sure CG is starting to see this. We will see how quickly they act or even care.
This raid is not meant for people with jobs and families. A grown up with responsabilities can’t play a mobile game for as long as this raid need us to be online pending of the damage percentage. I hope this mechanic is review. Cheers to all.
Has there been any discussion to allow a roster reset option for guilds?
This option could be selected by guild officers and would be a single reset that reduces payouts by half but would allow many guilds to be viable... as it stands now, my ONLY options as a top contributor are to leave my guild, or to give up on all relic 8 until who knows how long it takes for others to catch up...
The way it plays out now, is to work your way up with your guild, because you absolutely need one to progress... until you are at or near the top... then leave everyone you had played alongside to progress any further... ouch ! It’s a different beast for LS/ds tb, there small incremental increases are valuable... challenge pit is all or nothing !
They have been pretty clear this is meant to be a challenge. I dont see them trying to introduce an element to make it easier, even for less rewards.
Yes, every time a new guild thing is released, players leave guilds or are faced with this choice and guilds even break up. That will always happen when content is introduced and not everyone can complete it. (I am not saying anything about guilds "who can" but are not due to the coordination mechanics)
Then please stop trying to draw the comparison to all previous guild events. The thing that makes this "difficult" is not in any way similar to that which made previous guild activities difficult. I know you know that - which is why I don't understand why you keep trotting out this particular company line regarding "every time new guild events..."
Because not every statement says anything like what you are expressing and what I said I was not referencing.
I have replied to comments "I have to leave my guild", "is this intended that guilds break up", "X has left my guild" and the like. Not with the company line, but with the same line that is expressed each time a new guild event is released, by many others.
You and other who choose to reply want to make it sound like it's not the same, when in some of those cases its is exactly the same, or it is not expressed to be solely due to coordination efforts.
So rather than act like every person has expressed that this is due to or the only possible cause is that it's due to those issues, maybe take a step back and think that, just like every other time, there are other reasons why these things happen, and that is what happens every time a new guild event is released.
Maybe it's worth considering the factors in previous guild events that caused people to leave and try to avoid those things rather than introducing new factors that are even worse than the ones before...
I'm sure they do, but there are things that are not within their control and they are never going to be able to stop players from min/maxing each and every thing in the game.
How is the design of guild events not within their control?
If a player is in a guild that cannot complete an event, or cannot complete it at the same level as that player could in a different guild, they cannot make content that will suit those specific needs.
Players/guilds get lax and move things around over time, then a new thing comes out and they realize that their current composition cannot achieve what some or what the leadership desires, and the guild breaks up due to those personal choices/reasons. They cannot make content that will suit those guilds.
Players are always going to want to be at the "top of their game" and new content usually rewards players with new key things, and those 2 ideas cannot be placed together for every player/guild. So while they do consider this and will try to make things fit as good as possible they cannot control everything through content design.
How is this so hard of a concept for you to grasp.
The difficulty of Crancor is not insurmountable. That’s not why guilds are breaking up, as with previous raids/guild events. The paywall/gear reqs of Crancor is not breaking up guilds, as with previous raids/ guild events.
The issue is the coordination, universal stacking mechanic and massive time sink.
Never before has any event ever in this game required dozens of players be on for hours at the same time, regardless of time zones, to post damage at the exact same time to avoid the universal stacking mechanic that if reached to a certain point, makes the raid unbeatable.
TW/TB is not the same. You don’t need to drop damage at the same time and mess with real life schedules or work to do so. Difficulty and power creep may have caused guild shakes ups but that is NOT the case this time.
Past raids did not require damage to be dropped at the exact same time while waiting on AP mode using third party communication on when to drop damage so as not to ruin an entire raid run. Difficulty and power creep may have shaken up guilds but that is NOT the case this time.
Guilds should not be forced to break up that have been together for a long time simply because CG decided to say “screw your real life obligations and screw your guilds.”
Are you understanding it now? Or are you still sticking to the whole “this has happened before”. Tell you what, if you can name one single event from the past that caused guilds to fracture and split (time zones, mass coordination, AP mode, universal stacking mechanics that make it unbeatable if messed up, and third party communication tools) I’ll buy you a box of crystals.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
*Zohan Voice*: So let’s go
I’m not saying those aren’t the reasons from the past or denying it’s happened. However the reasons you’ve listed such as difficulty, never caused this much blowback. Why? Because eventually with progression in gear and rosters, the difficulty balances out eventually. Even LSGeoTB. The thing that was the bane of my existence with R7 Padme teams getting flattened in wave 1 in P1 of the event before even getting a move has become more bearable with roster expansions, mods etc. It’s still overtuned nonsense but it’s getting better. That much is true.
The stacking mechanic and coordination won’t get better with roster development. Why? Because even R7 GL teams get obliterated if one or two of the stacking thresholds gets broken because of crashes, or miscommunication, or AP mode not being turned on properly. What happens then? The entire run is gone. There should not be this much coordination required for a mobile game to the point that this raid is forcing.
In the past, difficulty causing guilds to fracture was player patience. If they had the roster to do a raid or TB, they could either work with their guild or jump ahead by a couple months to a guild ready now. This mechanic? Forcing people to leave because of where they live. Years long guilds, friends, teammates forced to leave or go elsewhere because of time zones or personal responsibility and real life time constraints. Other events don’t matter anywhere near this degree, including TW because you get on and do your runs/hits when you can. To that point, even with people Preloading TM in TW, I don’t think that team gets any sort of ramping damage or speed per attempt....they get boosted TM for sure, but the other stats...ummm no. So no bag for you .
If you agree the mechanic is garbage, as you’ve said, then there’s no more to be said. No comparing to past reasons for guild splits, etc. This is very different and CG’s pushing of this is just disgusting and I really hope the fiscal numbers reflect it so they finally wake up. I stand by what I said that anyone spending money on this game until they fix this mechanic, that’s voiced their opposition to it are just singing hollow complaints and are foolish. I’ve got plenty of iTunes gift cards ready to finish for SLKR and get most of the way to a 3rd GL (current or future), or amping up several other teams. However until they fix this mechanic and show the players they care and are listening, I’ll hang on to them or spend my money elsewhere, and happily so.
Difficulty never caused this much blowback? I believe the first month of Sith raid would disagree.
While I agree that the short term roster development doesnt show a whole bunch of promise, this is only the beginning. Also, personal development vs guild wide. Our guild is starting to hit 30-40% over damage per phase, even without dropping runs in previous phases. So there is something there that starts to let you drop some of the AP mode and other stuff, and just make quick burst attacks like we discussed earlier. But who knows what changes will come in the next year.
In the above coordination geta easier since you need to herd less cats. But I agree this is still not good enough and other than some similar (not the same) levels of TW coordination, this is unusual and not ideal.
I would consider this a very top view and guilds in the lower 1/3 or not able to do it could be losing players who have the r5 characters to do it but not enough guild support, so again there are similarities. Saying difficulty is not the issue is not neccesarily correct for everyone, it's still an issue for guilds trying to just break into it.
There is always reasons to discuss things, that is a big part of what the Forum is for. Agreeing that something needs to change doesnt help convey how much or in what ways work best to make a change. There is a high likelihood that changes will be made, and that is just as high as the likelyhood of those changes not being everything we want. Discussions like this one help bring into light what changes would have more effect than others.
I have no problem agreeing or disagreeing, or even talking from the other side of an argument (not my side), and sometimes that is a necessary evil to really hash out what's going on at the root of a problem.
As with every that gets released there is always a cry that it is "wrong" and "destroying the game" so discussion is what helps further the understanding of what is actually going on and what can be the focus of change. Some times those crys are just discomfort with "the new" and other times there is a real issue that is hurtful to the player base, and everywhere in between. So there is always room for discussion, and comparisons.
No one would fault you for any personal choices you make, that's what we all do. Cheers.
Really? Changes that can muster up against the sort of ramping damage? Highly unlikely, unless we are talking a jump in power creep like you saw between Wrath of Lich King and Cataclysm in WoW, which rendered the formers end game raid gear useless to common gear of the later.
Like I said, as long as you agree the universal stacking mechanic is garbage and needs to be changed then that’s good. Everything else I completely disagree with you as my guild has lost 8 members quitting the game outright who had 6.5 mil+ GP and multiple GL’s who said that the Crancor raid mechanics were the last straw. I hope they come back but I don’t see it likely.
Its unfortunate to see people go, but you also have to be mindful that if they were "on the edge" it is possible they were going to leave anyway and just needed something to point to as "the reason". I'm not making light of the situation, it's just that it's been a long time and some times players just want to stop.
Again, I'm not saying you can develop past mass log in and attack, but as we go up in Relic, you will need less people, as more players develop the right teams to a good point you need less caring about %. So in the end you get a handful of people that jump in to each phase and just make their runs. Or the push close to 80% strategy before mass runs becomes a push towards 60%, which give more of a spread of when players can get in. I dont consider that an ideal situation for the players because it still requires a group to log in at the same time, but it becomes more manageable.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
You can look at this however you want, but those other factors do matter.
Again, from a basic level, no one likes mechanics put in place, the "enjoyment" is usually derived from scheming and figuring out ways around that, not "going through it".
It probably made it though testing in the same way many things to, it was achieving the goals or stopping the things they wanted it to.
Deriving information from what we have seen in videos of the test server, things seem to be maxed out and plans usually drive towards or are planned around the end goal. I also dont know what the setup is in that world, they may or may not be running a whole guild of testers. They could just be focused in on the smaller picture of runs vs completing the whole thing.
So a small group of all maxed players could make quick work of this, or they may have only focused on small runs, as the team may have wanted this mechanics to be the way it was to suit the needs they had for it, i.e. prevent multiple runs in these early stages, solos, or other reasons.
5-10 players with everything maxed could probably make short work of this raid, so that would paint a different picture than many players see right now, but shows the end goal "they want". Just like LSGeo, this will be around and "needs to last" (or at least is designed to last) through the next few "stages" of evolution.
Again this is a bit of an odd question to pose, it's not as if there was some malicious intent here. Things happen, and experiences will always vary, and as they have said multiple times, once things get out "in the wild" they get a better picture of things.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
You can look at this however you want, but those other factors do matter.
Again, from a basic level, no one likes mechanics put in place, the "enjoyment" is usually derived from scheming and figuring out ways around that, not "going through it".
It probably made it though testing in the same way many things to, it was achieving the goals or stopping the things they wanted it to.
Deriving information from what we have seen in videos of the test server, things seem to be maxed out and plans usually drive towards or are planned around the end goal. I also dont know what the setup is in that world, they may or may not be running a whole guild of testers. They could just be focused in on the smaller picture of runs vs completing the whole thing.
So a small group of all maxed players could make quick work of this, or they may have only focused on small runs, as the team may have wanted this mechanics to be the way it was to suit the needs they had for it, i.e. prevent multiple runs in these early stages, solos, or other reasons.
5-10 players with everything maxed could probably make short work of this raid, so that would paint a different picture than many players see right now, but shows the end goal "they want". Just like LSGeo, this will be around and "needs to last" (or at least is designed to last) through the next few "stages" of evolution.
Again this is a bit of an odd question to pose, it's not as if there was some malicious intent here. Things happen, and experiences will always vary, and as they have said multiple times, once things get out "in the wild" they get a better picture of things.
You keep on about how there are other reasons that this raid is bad for guild health and I propose that the stacking gains that require high level of coordination is the main reason (if not the only reason). I asked if anyone enjoyed it to see if there were any arguments to be made in favor of it.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
You can look at this however you want, but those other factors do matter.
Again, from a basic level, no one likes mechanics put in place, the "enjoyment" is usually derived from scheming and figuring out ways around that, not "going through it".
It probably made it though testing in the same way many things to, it was achieving the goals or stopping the things they wanted it to.
Deriving information from what we have seen in videos of the test server, things seem to be maxed out and plans usually drive towards or are planned around the end goal. I also dont know what the setup is in that world, they may or may not be running a whole guild of testers. They could just be focused in on the smaller picture of runs vs completing the whole thing.
So a small group of all maxed players could make quick work of this, or they may have only focused on small runs, as the team may have wanted this mechanics to be the way it was to suit the needs they had for it, i.e. prevent multiple runs in these early stages, solos, or other reasons.
5-10 players with everything maxed could probably make short work of this raid, so that would paint a different picture than many players see right now, but shows the end goal "they want". Just like LSGeo, this will be around and "needs to last" (or at least is designed to last) through the next few "stages" of evolution.
Again this is a bit of an odd question to pose, it's not as if there was some malicious intent here. Things happen, and experiences will always vary, and as they have said multiple times, once things get out "in the wild" they get a better picture of things.
I always find it interesting how you can defend something that you say is not good/needs to be changed, is universally hated, and is universally called to be changed, is driving people to just flat out quit the game, as good for the game.
Nobody is talking about malicious intent. However willful ignorance completely applies here. The universal stacking mechanic is a terrible design that never should’ve never made it past testing. Does it prevent solos? Yes. However they failed to see the implications beyond that. Ergo, ignorance. How bad is the mechanic? One of their own says it needs to be changed but he doesn’t have the power to implement that....that’s all you need to know.
But please, keep finding new ways to defend the mechanics of this raid. It’s interesting to say the least.
No offense to your comment...but wouldn’t CG try to keep as many folks playing the game? Not chase them away or do something that finally causes them to leave. The folks who have quit recently are high gp players that spend money. I realize it is a fine line but this is why players do not think the developers play this game or at least play this game in real life (outside of their job). If they did they would know this mechanic was a bad idea.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
You can look at this however you want, but those other factors do matter.
Again, from a basic level, no one likes mechanics put in place, the "enjoyment" is usually derived from scheming and figuring out ways around that, not "going through it".
It probably made it though testing in the same way many things to, it was achieving the goals or stopping the things they wanted it to.
Deriving information from what we have seen in videos of the test server, things seem to be maxed out and plans usually drive towards or are planned around the end goal. I also dont know what the setup is in that world, they may or may not be running a whole guild of testers. They could just be focused in on the smaller picture of runs vs completing the whole thing.
So a small group of all maxed players could make quick work of this, or they may have only focused on small runs, as the team may have wanted this mechanics to be the way it was to suit the needs they had for it, i.e. prevent multiple runs in these early stages, solos, or other reasons.
5-10 players with everything maxed could probably make short work of this raid, so that would paint a different picture than many players see right now, but shows the end goal "they want". Just like LSGeo, this will be around and "needs to last" (or at least is designed to last) through the next few "stages" of evolution.
Again this is a bit of an odd question to pose, it's not as if there was some malicious intent here. Things happen, and experiences will always vary, and as they have said multiple times, once things get out "in the wild" they get a better picture of things.
You keep on about how there are other reasons that this raid is bad for guild health and I propose that the stacking gains that require high level of coordination is the main reason (if not the only reason). I asked if anyone enjoyed it to see if there were any arguments to be made in favor of it.
I didn't say anything about malicious intent.
I never said you did, I was just talking on the subject since many love to bring in and at points bash any testers that may be involved.(not directed at you)
This is not the only reason that new guild content has some effect on the health of a guild. I also dont think that people moving around or other factors are necessarily good/bad for guilds, in fact I think the health of a guild is more a reason why moves happen in almost all cases, not the content directly. The other factors play a major role in what happens, even if in this case the coordination is a catalist.
As I said in my other post, I dont contribute enjoyment to the mechanic, the mechanic serves a purpose and the enjoyment comes from getting around/through it. IMO. I am sure there are people who enjoy beating the raid. If the mechanics can't be substituted with other elements that serve the intended purpose(s), it may not change, or they may have a bigger picture that will become clearer as time moves on, or they may do things to help make it easier to work with the plans players are making, IDK. So again enjoying the mechanic is an odd question to pose, as it wouldnt necessarily be an argument "for it".
Replies
1) ok fair point on "other" vs "all"
2) I disagree on the rewards but again ok.
If they do something about the "everyone has to be on at once" issue I think the raid is fine as is.
Here's a wild suggestion: Maybe both the difficulty and the coordination are breaking up guilds?
Some guilds will break up because only a portion of the players are "rancor ready", other guilds will break up because they are all "rancor ready" but unable to align raid times?
I know it's a crazy suggestion, but Kyno do have a point with some of the posts he have replied to.
Some of the breaking up of guilds is what we've seen every time something new is released, some of the breaking up is because of the horrible mechanic. Which should be changed.
Difficulty breaking up a guild is just the way it goes.
Majority of the guild having to be online, using Discord and spending a few hours waiting for perfect coordination is a whole different thing.
Trust me, it's all about the coordination thing, and that also really is only a problem in p4 as there are simply no real high dmg teams for p4 - you're pretty much happy if you can get a 4-5% score. Now that 80%+ SLKR in p1 is currently the highscore I think but let's not assume people are constantly able to score that but getting ~50% is very much possible - obviously less dmg in p2/3 but then those people can use Rey in p1.
Raid phases 1-3 could be probably be done with like 5-6 people throwing in their Rey's in p1, SLKR's in p2+3 (and maybe some Padme's to fill up) but p4 is impossible right now. And not because guilds don't have enough material (50x JKR, GAS, JKL saved up for p4 would be enough already) but simply because enough people need to post their scores simultaneously - aka coordination.
Difficulty is not a problem - the coordination to avoid the stacking mechanic (in p4) is.
All this and not to mention it in any of those runs in p1-p3 and the mechanic triggers when the boss is below 40% or 20%, say goodnight.
When did I say I didnt understand the concept?
Is it hard for you to understand that there are guilds that broke up be cause players left to go to guild that can do the raid, due to difficulty and not anything to do with coordination??
I understand that you have issues with the mechanics, and you have made that clear. No not every pist has made it clear that the only reason guilds break up is due to coordination. Guilds break up or players leave for other reasons too, especially when new guild content is released.
So I will just assume you have done exit interviews for everyone leaving every guild?? No. So when someone gives no context to a situation and says guilds are breaking up and players are leaving guilds, there are many reasons this could be. No I have not said, guilds break up all the time to anyone who has attributed the breakup to coordination issues.
It's not hard to understand that a reply is in the context of the person being replied to. At no point have I not understood the issues.
Guilds may break up or players leave for their own personal choices, CG doesnt force anything.
I stand by the fact that this has happened before, 100%. Guild content comes out, people get upset because people leave guilds and even guilds break up. This has been the case 100% of the time. No matter what CG does to introduce a guild element this will be the case. Flat rewards or not. Players look for greener grass or make personal choices. That has nothing to do with the coordination involved in this raid.
That is not to say this coordination issue is not the reason that some people are leaving (still not forced by CG), but that is not the only reason people leave guilds when new content comes out.
Are you understanding me now???
For all of those reasons, no, but the majority of them apply to early TW (as I have said), so how about a bag instead?
Again, I'm not nor have I have said this is a good mechanic or that I like it. But let's not pretend that guilds dont break up or people leave due to guild content.
Yes even being asked to coordinate times, use 3rd party apps, be active for X period, and having mistakes make a match "unbeatable " (TM loaded teams going for 100s of attacks), all happen in other parts of the game.
Similarities are all I have pointing out. Sorry that they are not similar enough for you to agree, but they are there.
Do you have data or even anectodes to show for this claim for this particular raid or are you just assuming that can possibly be one of the cases? Any exit interviews that you expect from others?
It’s a huge stretch to compare this raid to preloading turn meter, because the worst that happens with preloaded turn meter is your guild gets 2nd place rewards instead of 1st, and there’s not even that much of a difference. Whereas with this raid, someone messing up in phase 4 means your entire guild is probably getting nothing. Zilch. Zero.
*Zohan Voice*: So let’s go
I’m not saying those aren’t the reasons from the past or denying it’s happened. However the reasons you’ve listed such as difficulty, never caused this much blowback. Why? Because eventually with progression in gear and rosters, the difficulty balances out eventually. Even LSGeoTB. The thing that was the bane of my existence with R7 Padme teams getting flattened in wave 1 in P1 of the event before even getting a move has become more bearable with roster expansions, mods etc. It’s still overtuned nonsense but it’s getting better. That much is true.
The stacking mechanic and coordination won’t get better with roster development. Why? Because even R7 GL teams get obliterated if one or two of the stacking thresholds gets broken because of crashes, or miscommunication, or AP mode not being turned on properly. What happens then? The entire run is gone. There should not be this much coordination required for a mobile game to the point that this raid is forcing.
In the past, difficulty causing guilds to fracture was player patience. If they had the roster to do a raid or TB, they could either work with their guild or jump ahead by a couple months to a guild ready now. This mechanic? Forcing people to leave because of where they live. Years long guilds, friends, teammates forced to leave or go elsewhere because of time zones or personal responsibility and real life time constraints. Other events don’t matter anywhere near this degree, including TW because you get on and do your runs/hits when you can. To that point, even with people Preloading TM in TW, I don’t think that team gets any sort of ramping damage or speed per attempt....they get boosted TM for sure, but the other stats...ummm no. So no bag for you
If you agree the mechanic is garbage, as you’ve said, then there’s no more to be said. No comparing to past reasons for guild splits, etc. This is very different and CG’s pushing of this is just disgusting and I really hope the fiscal numbers reflect it so they finally wake up. I stand by what I said that anyone spending money on this game until they fix this mechanic, that’s voiced their opposition to it are just singing hollow complaints and are foolish. I’ve got plenty of iTunes gift cards ready to finish for SLKR and get most of the way to a 3rd GL (current or future), or amping up several other teams. However until they fix this mechanic and show the players they care and are listening, I’ll hang on to them or spend my money elsewhere, and happily so.
Difficulty never caused this much blowback? I believe the first month of Sith raid would disagree.
While I agree that the short term roster development doesnt show a whole bunch of promise, this is only the beginning. Also, personal development vs guild wide. Our guild is starting to hit 30-40% over damage per phase, even without dropping runs in previous phases. So there is something there that starts to let you drop some of the AP mode and other stuff, and just make quick burst attacks like we discussed earlier. But who knows what changes will come in the next year.
In the above coordination geta easier since you need to herd less cats. But I agree this is still not good enough and other than some similar (not the same) levels of TW coordination, this is unusual and not ideal.
I would consider this a very top view and guilds in the lower 1/3 or not able to do it could be losing players who have the r5 characters to do it but not enough guild support, so again there are similarities. Saying difficulty is not the issue is not neccesarily correct for everyone, it's still an issue for guilds trying to just break into it.
There is always reasons to discuss things, that is a big part of what the Forum is for. Agreeing that something needs to change doesnt help convey how much or in what ways work best to make a change. There is a high likelihood that changes will be made, and that is just as high as the likelyhood of those changes not being everything we want. Discussions like this one help bring into light what changes would have more effect than others.
I have no problem agreeing or disagreeing, or even talking from the other side of an argument (not my side), and sometimes that is a necessary evil to really hash out what's going on at the root of a problem.
As with every that gets released there is always a cry that it is "wrong" and "destroying the game" so discussion is what helps further the understanding of what is actually going on and what can be the focus of change. Some times those crys are just discomfort with "the new" and other times there is a real issue that is hurtful to the player base, and everywhere in between. So there is always room for discussion, and comparisons.
No one would fault you for any personal choices you make, that's what we all do. Cheers.
Really? Changes that can muster up against the sort of ramping damage? Highly unlikely, unless we are talking a jump in power creep like you saw between Wrath of Lich King and Cataclysm in WoW, which rendered the formers end game raid gear useless to common gear of the later.
Like I said, as long as you agree the universal stacking mechanic is garbage and needs to be changed then that’s good. Everything else I completely disagree with you as my guild has lost 8 members quitting the game outright who had 6.5 mil+ GP and multiple GL’s who said that the Crancor raid mechanics were the last straw. I hope they come back but I don’t see it likely.
Its unfortunate to see people go, but you also have to be mindful that if they were "on the edge" it is possible they were going to leave anyway and just needed something to point to as "the reason". I'm not making light of the situation, it's just that it's been a long time and some times players just want to stop.
Again, I'm not saying you can develop past mass log in and attack, but as we go up in Relic, you will need less people, as more players develop the right teams to a good point you need less caring about %. So in the end you get a handful of people that jump in to each phase and just make their runs. Or the push close to 80% strategy before mass runs becomes a push towards 60%, which give more of a spread of when players can get in. I dont consider that an ideal situation for the players because it still requires a group to log in at the same time, but it becomes more manageable.
Yes absolutely they do. They also have better data on this than any of us. So being this close to things we see a small segment and changes like what he describes are scary and can even be shattering to us and our friends, but it doesn't always mean that's going to scale to the larger picture.
They will always want to keep players, but doesn't mean they can, some players just burn out (not saying that's the case here in any way), and are going to leave anyway, and just need something to point at as " the reason".
Of course they dont want to push them away, but they also need to push boundaries and make new content "different enough" to be "moving forward", some people just dint like change or may not like a new thing, and that is where feedback and discussions about similarities and differences is important, but in the end some will just leave and there it is not always in their power to stop or change things to keep "everyone".
You are wrong, but that's ok many assume things about the dev team, not much anyone can do about that.
I believe you've stated that you don't like the stacking mechanic that required everyone to enter the raid/start runs/post at the same time.
Doja said "My guild just finished our first victorious Rancor CT Raid over the weekend, and wow...it was quite an effort. The coordination required was...an experience. We felt good about finishing it, but I personally would like to see changes be made in order to address the amount of airplane mode/guild coordination etc involved that is currently the prominent strategy for completing this raid. But, that's not my job or responsibility, nor a decision I get to make. When there's something substantial or concrete for me to report, I will do so."
Have you heard anyone reporting that they're enjoying the coordination aspect of the raid?
Enjoy, no. Have people said it seems like less of an issue than others have been stating, yes. You can see those in this thread, if you dont see them elsewhere.
Also, many dont enjoy new content in some way or another. Lower tier/new players sometimes see it as "out of reach" and others have different complaints, but with regard to this specific mechanic, no, but as I have said and you can see here some dont consider it the same level of issue. I.e. - it's not breaking up their guild, or they dont have to worry about AP mode and other factors at each step.
But honestly there are things that are placed in game that are not meant to be "enjoyable". No one enjoys "the grind", for example, we may or may not enjoy the feeling of completing things in small increments, so that is just an odd question to pose.
Players dont enjoy the stacking tenacity and other elements added to the Sith raid, as another example.
I'm not talking about anything other than the coordination required for this raid... I'm not worried about 'not liking new content in some way or another' or making generalized comparisons.
"Enjoy, no" is the right answer.
Doja's guild had managed to complete the raid exactly one time before he realized he didn't like the level of coordination required. How does something that get past the testing phase?
You can look at this however you want, but those other factors do matter.
Again, from a basic level, no one likes mechanics put in place, the "enjoyment" is usually derived from scheming and figuring out ways around that, not "going through it".
It probably made it though testing in the same way many things to, it was achieving the goals or stopping the things they wanted it to.
Deriving information from what we have seen in videos of the test server, things seem to be maxed out and plans usually drive towards or are planned around the end goal. I also dont know what the setup is in that world, they may or may not be running a whole guild of testers. They could just be focused in on the smaller picture of runs vs completing the whole thing.
So a small group of all maxed players could make quick work of this, or they may have only focused on small runs, as the team may have wanted this mechanics to be the way it was to suit the needs they had for it, i.e. prevent multiple runs in these early stages, solos, or other reasons.
5-10 players with everything maxed could probably make short work of this raid, so that would paint a different picture than many players see right now, but shows the end goal "they want". Just like LSGeo, this will be around and "needs to last" (or at least is designed to last) through the next few "stages" of evolution.
Again this is a bit of an odd question to pose, it's not as if there was some malicious intent here. Things happen, and experiences will always vary, and as they have said multiple times, once things get out "in the wild" they get a better picture of things.
You keep on about how there are other reasons that this raid is bad for guild health and I propose that the stacking gains that require high level of coordination is the main reason (if not the only reason). I asked if anyone enjoyed it to see if there were any arguments to be made in favor of it.
I didn't say anything about malicious intent.
I always find it interesting how you can defend something that you say is not good/needs to be changed, is universally hated, and is universally called to be changed, is driving people to just flat out quit the game, as good for the game.
Nobody is talking about malicious intent. However willful ignorance completely applies here. The universal stacking mechanic is a terrible design that never should’ve never made it past testing. Does it prevent solos? Yes. However they failed to see the implications beyond that. Ergo, ignorance. How bad is the mechanic? One of their own says it needs to be changed but he doesn’t have the power to implement that....that’s all you need to know.
But please, keep finding new ways to defend the mechanics of this raid. It’s interesting to say the least.
I never said you did, I was just talking on the subject since many love to bring in and at points bash any testers that may be involved.(not directed at you)
This is not the only reason that new guild content has some effect on the health of a guild. I also dont think that people moving around or other factors are necessarily good/bad for guilds, in fact I think the health of a guild is more a reason why moves happen in almost all cases, not the content directly. The other factors play a major role in what happens, even if in this case the coordination is a catalist.
As I said in my other post, I dont contribute enjoyment to the mechanic, the mechanic serves a purpose and the enjoyment comes from getting around/through it. IMO. I am sure there are people who enjoy beating the raid. If the mechanics can't be substituted with other elements that serve the intended purpose(s), it may not change, or they may have a bigger picture that will become clearer as time moves on, or they may do things to help make it easier to work with the plans players are making, IDK. So again enjoying the mechanic is an odd question to pose, as it wouldnt necessarily be an argument "for it".
Who said they do not consider that?
I'm sure they consider it but rarely do they act on it at the request of the community.
That's not true, they absolutely have, and will again.
You said it was an odd question to pose...enjoyment. Is this not a game? Is it not meant for enjoyment?