I think I finally realize why I'm not a huge fan of the reworks - while quite good generally for arena - I wish they had gone in a different direction. With these reworks they doubled-down on their reliance of debuffs, giving them tremendous amounts of TM dependent on the debuffs in an EP-led squad. That's fine, but their damage overall is still pretty weak. I'd have preferred if EP and DV were more stand-alone powerful and with more damage than reliance on debuffs for TM gain or damage output. To get this TM also, they HAVE to be in an EP-led squad. That's very limiting. Why not make that part of EP's unique so you can modify squads a bit more instead of pegging EP and DV in one squad config? Put them in situations where debuffs are limited or they are not behind an EP lead, and what do you have here?...pretty much the same exact characters. EP is a tad tankier with the zeta unique, but not like he's a brick wall - still very low armor issues and needs a lot of support. DV is faster now...and??? Where's my Rogue1 DV killing machine of death? Can we get the dev that re-worked Raid Han to get the next update to DV and EP?
the rework isn't that much different than raid han's though. I don't think you're giving the reworks a fair chance to be honest. You don't have to like the reworks, but i feel like you're searching for reasons not to like them.
I'm not saying it's all rainbows and sunshine though, but still.
They feel gimmicky like NS.
If you have a full team of G12 full zeta NS but have spirit instead of acolyte the team is toast.
If you have a NS team with 4* but have zombie and acolyte you can win. Kinda lame.
Same with Ep. Need Vader to go first to get things rolling or forget it.
Rework is ok but like the op said, I’d like them to be more stand alone and not so dependent.
They are so slow that the Devs tried to speed them up because they recognize the problem but even with my best arena mods on they still are pretty slow for arean. Hard to get speed and potency up enough on palp.
And potency is kind of a joke. My palp is 100% potency and today in GW my opening move didnt stun one enemy lol
If he can’t stun one person in GW hows he going to do in arena.
RNG is the worst part of every aspect of this game. Gear is garbage that doesn’t account for anything when RNG has the last word.
Mods are the worst add on to this game. All properties of mods are pointless except for speed.
Rng controls the outcome of your attacks but it doesn’t control speed. A faster Rex will tan up and palp/Vader are useless.
My personal GP is over 3,570,000 and my guild is almost 135 mill.
None of these things matter when a game is reliant on RNG and a lower player can climb from obscurity to place top in arena with sub par teams of NS. Or crush a way stronger team just because of speed.
So reworks aside. All they had to do was GIVE Vader speed. Not make him earn it first.
Palp just needed to be more beefy. His protection zeta is ok but would have rather had Rey’s zeta that 40% cleans debuffs instead.
Stun is stun after all and you can’t attack if your guy is stunned. Once again full circle back to speed lol.
Not sure if anything else is needed for the EP / DV reworks. Empire does very well in arena now, and at the end of the day, what else do we need? EP was given the OP Rex TM gain mechanisms, but fantastically on a Empire/Sith toon. Plus the mechanics are behind a zeta wall whereas Rex's wasn't, so definitely they're learning from past experiences.
what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
I think I finally realize why I'm not a huge fan of the reworks - while quite good generally for arena - I wish they had gone in a different direction. With these reworks they doubled-down on their reliance of debuffs, giving them tremendous amounts of TM dependent on the debuffs in an EP-led squad. That's fine, but their damage overall is still pretty weak. I'd have preferred if EP and DV were more stand-alone powerful and with more damage than reliance on debuffs for TM gain or damage output. To get this TM also, they HAVE to be in an EP-led squad. That's very limiting. Why not make that part of EP's unique so you can modify squads a bit more instead of pegging EP and DV in one squad config? Put them in situations where debuffs are limited or they are not behind an EP lead, and what do you have here?...pretty much the same exact characters. EP is a tad tankier with the zeta unique, but not like he's a brick wall - still very low armor issues and needs a lot of support. DV is faster now...and??? Where's my Rogue1 DV killing machine of death? Can we get the dev that re-worked Raid Han to get the next update to DV and EP?
I recall the forums were quite up in arms about universal skills working across multiple factions as being to OP, (i. e. Rex leader bonus). In this case, CG listened and limited the rework skills to empire/sith. They're just answering the call from the forums.
what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
I think I finally realize why I'm not a huge fan of the reworks - while quite good generally for arena - I wish they had gone in a different direction. With these reworks they doubled-down on their reliance of debuffs, giving them tremendous amounts of TM dependent on the debuffs in an EP-led squad. That's fine, but their damage overall is still pretty weak. I'd have preferred if EP and DV were more stand-alone powerful and with more damage than reliance on debuffs for TM gain or damage output. To get this TM also, they HAVE to be in an EP-led squad. That's very limiting. Why not make that part of EP's unique so you can modify squads a bit more instead of pegging EP and DV in one squad config? Put them in situations where debuffs are limited or they are not behind an EP lead, and what do you have here?...pretty much the same exact characters. EP is a tad tankier with the zeta unique, but not like he's a brick wall - still very low armor issues and needs a lot of support. DV is faster now...and??? Where's my Rogue1 DV killing machine of death? Can we get the dev that re-worked Raid Han to get the next update to DV and EP?
the rework isn't that much different than raid han's though. I don't think you're giving the reworks a fair chance to be honest. You don't have to like the reworks, but i feel like you're searching for reasons not to like them.
I'm not saying it's all rainbows and sunshine though, but still.
No for effectiveness in this particular space and for arena now, they are very good and effective reworks. They're just not what I wanted to see done with them. I think they lack diversity since you HAVE to use EP lead and DV behind him. EP I like his overall more than Vader, but I want Vader to be a fierce attacker...he's not. Instead, they made him a support / TM feeding toon that only really does that function behind an EP leader. Vader is what I'm particularly not happy about. Again, where's my R1 death machine? Instead, I still have a limp damage basic, weak aoe...but he feeds a lot of TM in 1 squad configuration!! This is DV guys...he shouldn't get a "well now he's useful" kind of rework.
They’re good reworks imo. They’re viable again in arena (7/20 of my current shard leaderboard is EP) and great in TB. Not bad for totally FTP teams.
i can't argue with this point, but I'm a long-time DS user and EP / DV are arguably my favorite 2 characters in this game so I'd have wanted to see them strong and more diverse in their usage than just being arena viable. How long is the configuration of EP as a lead and DV behind him really going to last in arena? Vader outside of an EP leader at top end arena seems almost totally useless...usable maybe but would have to be a forced sub-optimal choice.
I also dont' really like the tweak to cackling doom where EP doesn't damage all rebels / Jedi with his attacks now because he's less useful behind a DV lead, especially in DSTB cause he doesn't remove that TM on those attacks anymore. So, to me, EP got a nerf in some setups and a big upgrade if he's the leader and DV is just still fairly lame...except he is a good support unit now behind an EP lead.
I think I finally realize why I'm not a huge fan of the reworks - while quite good generally for arena - I wish they had gone in a different direction. With these reworks they doubled-down on their reliance of debuffs, giving them tremendous amounts of TM dependent on the debuffs in an EP-led squad. That's fine, but their damage overall is still pretty weak. I'd have preferred if EP and DV were more stand-alone powerful and with more damage than reliance on debuffs for TM gain or damage output. To get this TM also, they HAVE to be in an EP-led squad. That's very limiting. Why not make that part of EP's unique so you can modify squads a bit more instead of pegging EP and DV in one squad config? Put them in situations where debuffs are limited or they are not behind an EP lead, and what do you have here?...pretty much the same exact characters. EP is a tad tankier with the zeta unique, but not like he's a brick wall - still very low armor issues and needs a lot of support. DV is faster now...and??? Where's my Rogue1 DV killing machine of death? Can we get the dev that re-worked Raid Han to get the next update to DV and EP?
I recall the forums were quite up in arms about universal skills working across multiple factions as being to OP, (i. e. Rex leader bonus). In this case, CG listened and limited the rework skills to empire/sith. They're just answering the call from the forums.
EP's TM gain for Sith / EMpire as his unique would still have pinned him to Sith / Empire, it just would have enabled him and DV to operate behind various leaders of Empire / Sith. Or make DV's basic not so terrible. There's a middle ground between the extremes of Rex and how much they pigeon-holed DV and EP in this rework.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
DV is called an attacker - I'd have expected him to finally be an attacker. Instead he's a weak-hitting support unit. Vader should easily be as diverse in his usage as CLS in terms of the gravitas of the character in the story.
Also, I don't think Vader's speed / being countered were his main flaws most disliked --- it was his weak damage.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
I expected DV to be able to blast faces like Raid Han after his rework. That's my expectation. Raid Han and his lame little blaster....that's what I'd have been happy for. Let me actually feel powerful using Vader for once in PVP combat. We wait YEARS for the DV main rework and he's a support unit now .... but ONLY behind an EP lead.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
Also, I don't think Vader's speed / being countered were his main flaws most disliked --- it was his weak damage.
Vader’s statuesque speed and the fact that despite Force Crush being the obvious opener, it would get him killed half the time were absolutely his biggest flaws.
Despite the weak damage, an unresistable AB on basic that can go through foresight on like half the characters in the game, is way better then you are giving it credit.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
I expected DV to be able to blast faces like Raid Han after his rework. That's my expectation. Raid Han and his lame little blaster....that's what I'd have been happy for. Let me actually feel powerful using Vader for once in PVP combat. We wait YEARS for the DV main rework and he's a support unit now .... but ONLY behind an EP lead.
If you want to feel like you are blasting faces with Vader run Ep Vader THrawn ShT and Stark
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
I was gonna post something similar, but I think you hit all the points. Every character has flaws, but the reworks they did to palpatine and Vader should be considered a big success. They're pretty strong now
Ive had DV and EP for a long time at G12 and really even after the updates i have moved up from my arena range to the 170-220, they seem to be lackluster and like most of yous have stated, EPs shock dont land, it does no damage or nothing like nothing happened, and he is still weak in defense, 2-3 hits and hes gone. DV and his swing and crush is like doing very little damage. I can say that my 95k Power Sith Team is below par compared to my 85k power Rebel Team in which i can land in the 130-170 range. Nothing we all didnt know. Save your Zetas for other viable toons as you will get more in return.
Ive had DV and EP for a long time at G12 and really even after the updates i have moved up from my arena range to the 170-220, they seem to be lackluster and like most of yous have stated, EPs shock dont land, it does no damage or nothing like nothing happened, and he is still weak in defense, 2-3 hits and hes gone. DV and his swing and crush is like doing very little damage. I can say that my 95k Power Sith Team is below par compared to my 85k power Rebel Team in which i can land in the 130-170 range. Nothing we all didnt know. Save your Zetas for other viable toons as you will get more in return.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I had a top 50 CLS squad on a very mature shard. My new Palp team https://swgoh.gg/u/palpatinesminions has recently always got me into the top 20 and last week for the first time ever in 2 years i got #1. I don't even have amazing mods either.
Yeah i admit Vaders basic is poor damage but he is there to go first (most of the the time) and to feed turn meter. Palp can deffo be made more tanky with the right mods, zeta unique and g12 health booster. If you added up the damage he is doing with his unique every turn he is by far the highest damage in the game by far against rebels/jedi - its just that you can see it (which is a shame).
Overall I think the Palp rework has made him (again) one of the top toons in the game and i am delighted with him. Vader is not much different apart from his speed but his TM feeding is vital for the team to be viable at the high end.
Get a few debuffs on an opponent, and Vader's Culling Blade will smash their faces in. Not sure why this has been overlooked in this thread. As for power, anything with a light saber should slice through anyone without one, and deflect blaster bolts. But this is a game, and I think balance needs to exist. CLS was too powerful, and making Vader as powerful only exasperates the balance problem: definitely not healthy for the game.
what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
Also, I don't think Vader's speed / being countered were his main flaws most disliked --- it was his weak damage.
Vader’s statuesque speed and the fact that despite Force Crush being the obvious opener, it would get him killed half the time were absolutely his biggest flaws.
Despite the weak damage, an unresistable AB on basic that can go through foresight on like half the characters in the game, is way better then you are giving it credit.
I just disagree - there were plenty of ways to get Vader moving fast - Tarkin lead, Maul lead, his own lead or in any team paired with a fast Sith Assassin, use Sid behind a Vader lead or TFP to remove TM from the enemy so Vader would get pushed up as a result. The counter attack issue was only a problem while CLS was top meta (which he's not seen much anymore so it's not really needed now) - Vader's been in the game over 2 years - his historical mediocrity wasn't held back because of counter attackers typically over the majority of that time.
His issue was ... and is damage... DoTs are cute to run in HAAT and stack over a long battle, but since they added protection, the DoTs are pretty useless as of actually doing any damage in a PVP mode. His kit was created with those DoTs when it was all health - which was pretty good. Now they do damage as a % of health though when that amount is very small in relation to the protection. And toons regen protection now - or the DoTs will be cleansed really fast - so they're getting to be nearly as awful as Thermal Detonators. The actual damage on FC is hardly anything...all you're really getting out of his kit is speed down.
So look at DV though individually - did they make his kit any more deadly? Not really. What they did was gave EP a zeta that enabled people to leverage his many debuffs. That's not Vader though, that's EP's zeta. Where's the Vader-led arena-capable team? You won't find it cause with no EP zeta his whole kit is mediocre. Where's the Vader-included arena team NOT using EP as at the leader with a zeta? Again, you won't find it cause if his debuffs are not feeding insane TM to the team he's adding no value...and that's my issue with the reworks. DV is a support unit in a single team setup. Once the EP lead zeta is extinct in arena, where's Vader's place going to be? Will he be back to the bench for another 2+ years? Maybe for the entirety for the remainder of the game?
I'm not debating the effectiveness and efficiency of these reworks -- EP-led teams with Vader in them can be pretty deadly - but Vader's rework especially was not the rework I was looking for. This was his one shot to get a bad*** rework and have some longevity to his utility and I don't think he got that in his kit update.
Qualifier: More Sith seem to be coming, so maybe DV lead or something pops on him - I'm just going by what I can see at this time in this moment.
@JohnnySteelAlpha
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
Shore is my favourite toon, he's just awesome
I expected DV to be able to blast faces like Raid Han after his rework. That's my expectation. Raid Han and his lame little blaster....that's what I'd have been happy for. Let me actually feel powerful using Vader for once in PVP combat. We wait YEARS for the DV main rework and he's a support unit now .... but ONLY behind an EP lead.
If you want to feel like you are blasting faces with Vader run Ep Vader THrawn ShT and Stark
I agree he can be pumped up to increase his damage like any other toon, but I want a Vader that doesn't need pumped up and can stand on his own. Han can be put in a Rex team lead with no buffs up and he's still melting toons and attacking numerous times.
Get a few debuffs on an opponent, and Vader's Culling Blade will smash their faces in. Not sure why this has been overlooked in this thread. As for power, anything with a light saber should slice through anyone without one, and deflect blaster bolts. But this is a game, and I think balance needs to exist. CLS was too powerful, and making Vader as powerful only exasperates the balance problem: definitely not healthy for the game.
The damage is contingent though...have no debuffs on a toon and it's worthless.
EDIT: So you run Vader, you're guaranteed to get weak damage out of him - basic is bad, aoe is weak with DoTs that do little, and CB with no debuffs is terrible also. You have a contingent chance to do better damage with his CB if debuffs are in place. I think that's weak for DV. His skills shouldn't start out at weak and only have one skill need contingent factors to do some legit damage.
Get a few debuffs on an opponent, and Vader's Culling Blade will smash their faces in. Not sure why this has been overlooked in this thread. As for power, anything with a light saber should slice through anyone without one, and deflect blaster bolts. But this is a game, and I think balance needs to exist. CLS was too powerful, and making Vader as powerful only exasperates the balance problem: definitely not healthy for the game.
The damage is contingent though...have no debuffs on a toon and it's worthless.
EDIT: So you run Vader, you're guaranteed to get weak damage out of him - basic is bad, aoe is weak with DoTs that do little, and CB with no debuffs is terrible also. You have a contingent chance to do better damage with his CB if debuffs are in place. I think that's weak for DV. His skills shouldn't start out at weak and only have one skill need contingent factors to do some legit damage.
Sith land so many debuffs its obnoxious. Thats why Rex put a hurt on them... but now if he cleanses it gives even more TM to EP. Having a lot of debuffs for culling blade is never a concern lol. Just don't use it on the first move.
Get a few debuffs on an opponent, and Vader's Culling Blade will smash their faces in. Not sure why this has been overlooked in this thread. As for power, anything with a light saber should slice through anyone without one, and deflect blaster bolts. But this is a game, and I think balance needs to exist. CLS was too powerful, and making Vader as powerful only exasperates the balance problem: definitely not healthy for the game.
The damage is contingent though...have no debuffs on a toon and it's worthless.
EDIT: So you run Vader, you're guaranteed to get weak damage out of him - basic is bad, aoe is weak with DoTs that do little, and CB with no debuffs is terrible also. You have a contingent chance to do better damage with his CB if debuffs are in place. I think that's weak for DV. His skills shouldn't start out at weak and only have one skill need contingent factors to do some legit damage.
Sith land so many debuffs its obnoxious. Thats why Rex put a hurt on them... but now if he cleanses it gives even more TM to EP. Having a lot of debuffs for culling blade is never a concern lol. Just don't use it on the first move.
Ok - so Rex is coming back a good deal though as a result of EP. Vader leads with AOE - pushes up Rex to 100% TM - cleanses and has ten up in place before Vader gets his turn to use CB. Now what? Wait 3 turns to drop more debuffs to use CB and rebuild the debuffs back up? ...then by Vader's 4th turn I could effectively use CB?
Or oh....use IPD right? remove the ten up? or DT to dispel - or both for double dispel? on an on... do step 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 etc. and boom yeah then Vader is awesome!!!
...that's not what I think Vader should be. You guys can love the reworks and do the best you can to set vader up in his niche situations and pretend he's strong, but I can show you videos of Raid Han that does like 7 attacks in the first 30 seconds of the match and does over 100k damage without needing anyone or anything to set him up or be in any ideal situation. Raid Han rework set the bar for powerful characters with no contingency and I think Vader 100% deserves to have gotten the "Raid Han" rework treatment.
EP rework was very good with his leader (though I think as a non-leader he got a huge nerf with the change to cackling doom, so I'm mixed there)...but Vader essentially just got some speed that helps him ... throw pillows at the enemy at a faster rate.
I'm not having any issues with Rex on offence (of course defence could be a different story). I don't use Vader to AoE first but use his basic on Rex to apply ability block.
I'm not having any issues with Rex on offence (of course defence could be a different story). I don't use Vader to AoE first but use his basic on Rex to apply ability block.
This works, I normally just swap out DN for DT and let Rex get off his 1 TU before he melts.
I'm not having any issues with Rex on offence (of course defence could be a different story). I don't use Vader to AoE first but use his basic on Rex to apply ability block.
This and Vaders not the only one applying debuffs. DNs unique drops debuffs like its hot. SA debuffs. EP debuffs. What Sith or Empire doesn't debuff?
@JohnnySteelAlpha I hear what you're saying. I only have a different opinion. This game is so far removed from the fictional science of the star wars universe that focusing on where DV's kit is inconsistent with it opens a pandoras box into almost the entire game. That's the path of being forever unhappy. Where you and I differ, I gave up the fictional science and just accepted the game for what it is. I am not trying to silence you, and honestly encourage you to give your perspective, but until Jedi stop being pushovers, I have no sympathy for Vader. And get, I run zEP(L), zDv, zDN, zGAT, SiT and do extremely well in arena - the best I've done in a year. So while you win the finer point that Vader's kit is limited to EP lead as a support toon, I'm gonna ride the Vader/EP train and collect my arena winnings with a genuine happiness.
what an ugly thing to say... does this mean we're not friends anymore?
@JohnnySteelAlpha I hear what you're saying. I only have a different opinion. This game is so far removed from the fictional science of the star wars universe that focusing on where DV's kit is inconsistent with it opens a pandoras box into almost the entire game. That's the path of being forever unhappy. Where you and I differ, I gave up the fictional science and just accepted the game for what it is. I am not trying to silence you, and honestly encourage you to give your perspective, but until Jedi stop being pushovers, I have no sympathy for Vader. And get, I run zEP(L), zDv, zDN, zGAT, SiT and do extremely well in arena - the best I've done in a year. So while you win the finer point that Vader's kit is limited to EP lead as a support toon, I'm gonna ride the Vader/EP train and collect my arena winnings with a genuine happiness.
I get that...and I can't win or lose this conversation since it's just opinions on what we want or didn't want from Vader. The EP / DV rework in total from a effectiveness standpoint is obviously very strong, there's not much debate against that. If I were leaving my own personal wishes and bias toward these two and what they should be out of it I'd have to say it was beyond expectations for the level that they are boosting EP (and by extension DV) in arena. I cheer that. It's just me in my head envisioning what I think Vader should play like and I can't fathom how it was decided that he would be a low damage / contingent damage support unit...that only is a good support in one configuration. I mean it could have even been cool if Vader's unique had an impact on TM gain when debuffs expire and not had it been tied to EP's lead. He's now essentially playing the Sith Assassin role in Dark Side teams. I'll just have to be content with that This is the Vader we will probably have for the remainder of the life of this game.
Replies
the rework isn't that much different than raid han's though. I don't think you're giving the reworks a fair chance to be honest. You don't have to like the reworks, but i feel like you're searching for reasons not to like them.
I'm not saying it's all rainbows and sunshine though, but still.
If you have a full team of G12 full zeta NS but have spirit instead of acolyte the team is toast.
If you have a NS team with 4* but have zombie and acolyte you can win. Kinda lame.
Same with Ep. Need Vader to go first to get things rolling or forget it.
Rework is ok but like the op said, I’d like them to be more stand alone and not so dependent.
They are so slow that the Devs tried to speed them up because they recognize the problem but even with my best arena mods on they still are pretty slow for arean. Hard to get speed and potency up enough on palp.
And potency is kind of a joke. My palp is 100% potency and today in GW my opening move didnt stun one enemy lol
If he can’t stun one person in GW hows he going to do in arena.
RNG is the worst part of every aspect of this game. Gear is garbage that doesn’t account for anything when RNG has the last word.
Mods are the worst add on to this game. All properties of mods are pointless except for speed.
Rng controls the outcome of your attacks but it doesn’t control speed. A faster Rex will tan up and palp/Vader are useless.
My personal GP is over 3,570,000 and my guild is almost 135 mill.
None of these things matter when a game is reliant on RNG and a lower player can climb from obscurity to place top in arena with sub par teams of NS. Or crush a way stronger team just because of speed.
So reworks aside. All they had to do was GIVE Vader speed. Not make him earn it first.
Palp just needed to be more beefy. His protection zeta is ok but would have rather had Rey’s zeta that 40% cleans debuffs instead.
Stun is stun after all and you can’t attack if your guy is stunned. Once again full circle back to speed lol.
I recall the forums were quite up in arms about universal skills working across multiple factions as being to OP, (i. e. Rex leader bonus). In this case, CG listened and limited the rework skills to empire/sith. They're just answering the call from the forums.
No for effectiveness in this particular space and for arena now, they are very good and effective reworks. They're just not what I wanted to see done with them. I think they lack diversity since you HAVE to use EP lead and DV behind him. EP I like his overall more than Vader, but I want Vader to be a fierce attacker...he's not. Instead, they made him a support / TM feeding toon that only really does that function behind an EP leader. Vader is what I'm particularly not happy about. Again, where's my R1 death machine? Instead, I still have a limp damage basic, weak aoe...but he feeds a lot of TM in 1 squad configuration!! This is DV guys...he shouldn't get a "well now he's useful" kind of rework.
i can't argue with this point, but I'm a long-time DS user and EP / DV are arguably my favorite 2 characters in this game so I'd have wanted to see them strong and more diverse in their usage than just being arena viable. How long is the configuration of EP as a lead and DV behind him really going to last in arena? Vader outside of an EP leader at top end arena seems almost totally useless...usable maybe but would have to be a forced sub-optimal choice.
I also dont' really like the tweak to cackling doom where EP doesn't damage all rebels / Jedi with his attacks now because he's less useful behind a DV lead, especially in DSTB cause he doesn't remove that TM on those attacks anymore. So, to me, EP got a nerf in some setups and a big upgrade if he's the leader and DV is just still fairly lame...except he is a good support unit now behind an EP lead.
EP's TM gain for Sith / EMpire as his unique would still have pinned him to Sith / Empire, it just would have enabled him and DV to operate behind various leaders of Empire / Sith. Or make DV's basic not so terrible. There's a middle ground between the extremes of Rex and how much they pigeon-holed DV and EP in this rework.
It just seems like you hold them to a way higher standard than other toons/factions. There hasn't been a meta that didn't depend on 2 or 3 "must include toons", so why would it be any different with empire?
As objectively as i can be, i would say these reworks are a success.
- vader's biggest flaws were his speed and his vulnerability vs counters. Both adressed, even his basic dmg was buffed (a bit).
- palp's biggest flaw was pretty much only his survivability. Adressed his survivability and jacked his lead up to meta level.
Realistically, what more could we expect?
Obviously they aren't my favourite toons, so even if they didn't become meta i would have been a happy little camper.
DV is called an attacker - I'd have expected him to finally be an attacker. Instead he's a weak-hitting support unit. Vader should easily be as diverse in his usage as CLS in terms of the gravitas of the character in the story.
Also, I don't think Vader's speed / being countered were his main flaws most disliked --- it was his weak damage.
I expected DV to be able to blast faces like Raid Han after his rework. That's my expectation. Raid Han and his lame little blaster....that's what I'd have been happy for. Let me actually feel powerful using Vader for once in PVP combat. We wait YEARS for the DV main rework and he's a support unit now .... but ONLY behind an EP lead.
Vader’s statuesque speed and the fact that despite Force Crush being the obvious opener, it would get him killed half the time were absolutely his biggest flaws.
Despite the weak damage, an unresistable AB on basic that can go through foresight on like half the characters in the game, is way better then you are giving it credit.
I've been using Ep Thrawn ShT Tarkin and Vader but I do think IPD DT and DN all can command spots.
If you want to feel like you are blasting faces with Vader run Ep Vader THrawn ShT and Stark
I was gonna post something similar, but I think you hit all the points. Every character has flaws, but the reworks they did to palpatine and Vader should be considered a big success. They're pretty strong now
Nothing could be further from the truth. I had a top 50 CLS squad on a very mature shard. My new Palp team https://swgoh.gg/u/palpatinesminions has recently always got me into the top 20 and last week for the first time ever in 2 years i got #1. I don't even have amazing mods either.
Yeah i admit Vaders basic is poor damage but he is there to go first (most of the the time) and to feed turn meter. Palp can deffo be made more tanky with the right mods, zeta unique and g12 health booster. If you added up the damage he is doing with his unique every turn he is by far the highest damage in the game by far against rebels/jedi - its just that you can see it (which is a shame).
Overall I think the Palp rework has made him (again) one of the top toons in the game and i am delighted with him. Vader is not much different apart from his speed but his TM feeding is vital for the team to be viable at the high end.
I just disagree - there were plenty of ways to get Vader moving fast - Tarkin lead, Maul lead, his own lead or in any team paired with a fast Sith Assassin, use Sid behind a Vader lead or TFP to remove TM from the enemy so Vader would get pushed up as a result. The counter attack issue was only a problem while CLS was top meta (which he's not seen much anymore so it's not really needed now) - Vader's been in the game over 2 years - his historical mediocrity wasn't held back because of counter attackers typically over the majority of that time.
His issue was ... and is damage... DoTs are cute to run in HAAT and stack over a long battle, but since they added protection, the DoTs are pretty useless as of actually doing any damage in a PVP mode. His kit was created with those DoTs when it was all health - which was pretty good. Now they do damage as a % of health though when that amount is very small in relation to the protection. And toons regen protection now - or the DoTs will be cleansed really fast - so they're getting to be nearly as awful as Thermal Detonators. The actual damage on FC is hardly anything...all you're really getting out of his kit is speed down.
So look at DV though individually - did they make his kit any more deadly? Not really. What they did was gave EP a zeta that enabled people to leverage his many debuffs. That's not Vader though, that's EP's zeta. Where's the Vader-led arena-capable team? You won't find it cause with no EP zeta his whole kit is mediocre. Where's the Vader-included arena team NOT using EP as at the leader with a zeta? Again, you won't find it cause if his debuffs are not feeding insane TM to the team he's adding no value...and that's my issue with the reworks. DV is a support unit in a single team setup. Once the EP lead zeta is extinct in arena, where's Vader's place going to be? Will he be back to the bench for another 2+ years? Maybe for the entirety for the remainder of the game?
I'm not debating the effectiveness and efficiency of these reworks -- EP-led teams with Vader in them can be pretty deadly - but Vader's rework especially was not the rework I was looking for. This was his one shot to get a bad*** rework and have some longevity to his utility and I don't think he got that in his kit update.
Qualifier: More Sith seem to be coming, so maybe DV lead or something pops on him - I'm just going by what I can see at this time in this moment.
I agree he can be pumped up to increase his damage like any other toon, but I want a Vader that doesn't need pumped up and can stand on his own. Han can be put in a Rex team lead with no buffs up and he's still melting toons and attacking numerous times.
The damage is contingent though...have no debuffs on a toon and it's worthless.
EDIT: So you run Vader, you're guaranteed to get weak damage out of him - basic is bad, aoe is weak with DoTs that do little, and CB with no debuffs is terrible also. You have a contingent chance to do better damage with his CB if debuffs are in place. I think that's weak for DV. His skills shouldn't start out at weak and only have one skill need contingent factors to do some legit damage.
Sith land so many debuffs its obnoxious. Thats why Rex put a hurt on them... but now if he cleanses it gives even more TM to EP. Having a lot of debuffs for culling blade is never a concern lol. Just don't use it on the first move.
Ok - so Rex is coming back a good deal though as a result of EP. Vader leads with AOE - pushes up Rex to 100% TM - cleanses and has ten up in place before Vader gets his turn to use CB. Now what? Wait 3 turns to drop more debuffs to use CB and rebuild the debuffs back up? ...then by Vader's 4th turn I could effectively use CB?
Or oh....use IPD right? remove the ten up? or DT to dispel - or both for double dispel? on an on... do step 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 etc. and boom yeah then Vader is awesome!!!
...that's not what I think Vader should be. You guys can love the reworks and do the best you can to set vader up in his niche situations and pretend he's strong, but I can show you videos of Raid Han that does like 7 attacks in the first 30 seconds of the match and does over 100k damage without needing anyone or anything to set him up or be in any ideal situation. Raid Han rework set the bar for powerful characters with no contingency and I think Vader 100% deserves to have gotten the "Raid Han" rework treatment.
Tarkin in place of Vader:
EP rework was very good with his leader (though I think as a non-leader he got a huge nerf with the change to cackling doom, so I'm mixed there)...but Vader essentially just got some speed that helps him ... throw pillows at the enemy at a faster rate.
This works, I normally just swap out DN for DT and let Rex get off his 1 TU before he melts.
This and Vaders not the only one applying debuffs. DNs unique drops debuffs like its hot. SA debuffs. EP debuffs. What Sith or Empire doesn't debuff?
I get that...and I can't win or lose this conversation since it's just opinions on what we want or didn't want from Vader. The EP / DV rework in total from a effectiveness standpoint is obviously very strong, there's not much debate against that. If I were leaving my own personal wishes and bias toward these two and what they should be out of it I'd have to say it was beyond expectations for the level that they are boosting EP (and by extension DV) in arena. I cheer that. It's just me in my head envisioning what I think Vader should play like and I can't fathom how it was decided that he would be a low damage / contingent damage support unit...that only is a good support in one configuration. I mean it could have even been cool if Vader's unique had an impact on TM gain when debuffs expire and not had it been tied to EP's lead. He's now essentially playing the Sith Assassin role in Dark Side teams. I'll just have to be content with that