@CoastalJames I know this will probably get me a ride to ban camp, but I have to be honest, I'd rather my thread have gotten merged into the mega to be lost forever than to be merged into a thread with an OP that is pure conjecture. I honestly feel this was a slap in the face when I just tried to present data with the least amount of mob-riling spin as I could.
I say this because I don't want my post to be construed as one side of the players yelling at another side, which is what the OP in this thread is actively doing. I want as rational a discussion among the players about this as possible. I want other players to tell me where I could have bias in my data. I want to inspire other players to pull their own data sets and to make their own analysis. Basically, I want the forums to grow up, which I know is a pipe dream.
So much to say, but I really don't want a permanent ban, so I'll just leave it at that.
Wow just wow. This is so bad. At least give ranks 1-3 an extra mystery box to make up for their effort. Give it some time they said. Its very poor that some in my guild got a full g12 piece at much lower ranks. Guess I got an extra 4 traya shards tho. Yes!!!
Personally I am not a fan of the flattened reward system. Someone that posts 0 damage should not earn similar rewards to someone that does 10mil+ to the sith bosses.
What they game need is better beta testing. Overpowered squads should have been identified before it went live not 2weeks after. The amount of gear in the Heroic boxes might have been excessive, this should also have been fixed before it went live.
Instead beta testing here seems to be a way for certain guilds to gain an upper hand. You talk about imbalance between players... you have X set of players getting uber rewards for a month, and now everyone else will take forever to close the power gap.
I sank 9 pieces of gear XII gear into my JTR team...
I sank 3 zetas on them as well.
I bought crystals to get my Phoenix and Nightsisters to gear XI, I almost have enough to zeta Assaj...
All so that I could earn the rewards I should be earning. Until now. Why did I bother?
More are completing it than you anticipated, so you take. You never give you only take.
I'm done. After 2 years in the same community most of which in the same guild I am done. This is the last straw. You don't improve something by taking from some to give to others. The increase in rewards to lower guild members and to the lower tiers in miniscule. The rewards you have taken from the top are a travesty.
I have Hoda set as my arena team, I am not bailing on my guild mates in the middle of a TB, but when rewards come in on Sunday. That's it.
I hope that's what you wanted, because I can't think of any other reason for doing this.
@CG_Carrie the best way to fix this is to make heroic no longer drop salvage. Everyone gets 6 full pieces of gear.
You want 40% chance on G12 no problem. There should also be a 50-60% chance at a full piece G11 finisher. 1-3 full G10-11 pieces depending on G12 and G11 finisher drops. And finally 3 random full pieces of the following Mk3 Carbanti, Mk3 Stuncuff, Mk5 Stungun prototype, Mk4 Comlink prototype.
If a guild has perfect tickets for a year that's 91 heroic raids. 40% drops would be 36 G12 for the year, 60% on G11 finishers is 54 drops. Sure this is considerably more than the disappointment you plan on giving us and there is no way of spinning that we will be excited about that even after change goes live.
Lets say a guild can complete 2 HSTR a week. Thats a grand total of over 600 Full gear pieces a year.
What you just said 8s impossible. Do your math. 120k tickets requires 4 days. A week has 7. 91 raids is the maximum number of raids and not all of that is full pieces of gear. You need both a carbanti and stungun prot to make a mk5 stungun, cuffs and comlink, carbanti and detonator. And then you need full pieces of these for g11 finishers even though I want to include that but it won't happen. Even if you got full piece 6x91=546
What an “improvement”; just got my first 1st place finish, and the gear rewards were worse than hAAT. For as much effort as it takes to do that (we finished with 15 minutes left on the timer), this is absolutely insulting.
10 cuff pieces, 10 mk7 generator pieces, 8 mk6 carb pieces, and 8 mk10 circle things. It feels just awful to have stressed over this raid for 2 full days for such absolute bollocks.
So I guess you just don't care about the 12 Treya shards?
@CG_Carrie the best way to fix this is to make heroic no longer drop salvage. Everyone gets 6 full pieces of gear.
You want 40% chance on G12 no problem. There should also be a 50-60% chance at a full piece G11 finisher. 1-3 full G10-11 pieces depending on G12 and G11 finisher drops. And finally 3 random full pieces of the following Mk3 Carbanti, Mk3 Stuncuff, Mk5 Stungun prototype, Mk4 Comlink prototype.
If a guild has perfect tickets for a year that's 91 heroic raids. 40% drops would be 36 G12 for the year, 60% on G11 finishers is 54 drops. Sure this is considerably more than the disappointment you plan on giving us and there is no way of spinning that we will be excited about that even after change goes live.
Lets say a guild can complete 2 HSTR a week. Thats a grand total of over 600 Full gear pieces a year.
What you just said 8s impossible. Do your math. 120k tickets requires 4 days. A week has 7. 91 raids is the maximum number of raids and not all of that is full pieces of gear. You need both a carbanti and stungun prot to make a mk5 stungun, cuffs and comlink, carbanti and detonator. And then you need full pieces of these for g11 finishers even though I want to include that but it won't happen. Even if you got full piece 6x91=546
woohoo! only 546 pieces of gear!
Edit: As a personal opinon, i think the one thing the devs got right was that 1 full piece of g12 per raid isnt really a good idea for the game. That said, they definitely went about the wring way to solve the probelms
There is a way to confirm the spreadsheet above and it's validity. CG can provide GP gain data of a normalised distribution of GP for 2 weeks prior nerf in comparison to post nerf. I bet the latter is reduced
Seeing as the update has only been out a few days that would require at least another week and a half before that data could be released. Do you really think the people on here have that kind of patience?
I think CG is doing a great job coming out and taking the time to address this issue, and people should not just see the "now" but also the "later" Traya is the end game for doing sith raids, and that in itself should be motivating enough.
Here's why a lot of people aren't willing to do that. "Wait and see," has always been code for "This is bad for you and you know it, but we have the keys, so you have to take it."
I too am glad to see some real communication going on here, but it just blows my mind that they can't see why this is a harmful move for players. I cannot believe that a building full of intelligent individuals can't brainstorm a better way to achieve what they are hoping to do -- one that doesn't poison everyone's individual experience under the guise of "making it slightly better for everyone".
There are real issues that need to be corrected. CG_Carrie and her team are right in that extremely beneficial rewards for the top of a guild compared to the bottom of a guild eventually generate a schism in power levels between the top rankers and the bottom rankers. These kinds of schisms are likely to fracture that guild when the next power level spike hits (Geonosis TB hit and now the top 25% of the guild is way stronger than the bottom 25% so let's exile the bottom 25%). Wanting to correct this issue is fine.
But raids are a pressure valve for the worst bottlenecks in the game, and letting them grant rewards that really make you feel like you are overcoming that bottleneck carries a lot of weight. A big part of this problem is that gear isn't tiered and controlled in a way that makes a good reward scheme work well. Certain pieces are tremendously amplified in demand (Mk3 Carbantis, Mk5 Stun Guns). Top rank players want to feel like they are getting that rewards hit for the effort they put into the raid. Mid rank players want to get the rewards hit so they can power up and better compete for the top ranks. Low rank players desperately want it so they can feel like they can compose the teams needed to progress towards what the mid and high rank players can do.
CG, you really really need to rework this raid decision so that everyone is getting access to the bottleneck gear they need to build up teams for this raid, and so that high ranking finishers feel like they're getting good kickbacks for the time they spend.
@Mischen1 please take this as constructive criticism of your OP and not as an insult, but anytime you use caps in a post, or tell players to "get over it", or to "shut up", it's a pretty trollish post. I've been around these forums a long time, and have been deeply (too much so if I'm being honest with myself) involved in forums of other games, and anytime you make a post like your OP here, people are going to take it as a troll thread, whether you intended it to be or not. All you need to do is look at the responses you got to your post to see how a similar post in the future will be viewed.
Well no lol, but when you tip the scales the way they have done and lie about it then individuals are out for blood. But the maths doesn't lie and only supports the solution that this is indeed a nerf. If they were up front about the change then perhaps we could have swallowed it easier. I would love to see evidence from CG.
Hey @Maegor ,my guild does tier 3 and 4, i asked those who have discord to get screenshots of payouts. Will provide them if it helps this research.
@SmilinStonee I can pm a link to a copy of my spreadsheet to somebody if they want to do the legwork of entering the data. I would obviously remove the heroic data if somebody wanted to focus on a different tier of the raid though. If somebody inputs the data and updates the old and new values for GET and guild currency for that tier, then most of the work will be done.
Ill keep in touch if anyone is truly interested in doing the legwork. I know that your focus is heroic, but thought maybe you were doing multiples. Once again, you are being the hero everyone needs, thank you for doing this.
@CG_Carrie - thank you for the clarification. I personally believe that you are working very hard and putting up with a lot of internet grief with the honest intention of making things better. Anonymous people will always shout negative first, and often without the full picture.
I think that the changes are necessary for the health of the game. Flattening HSTR especially is fairer due to the fact that you need so many committed guild members (places 1-3 are not doing 50% of the raid, it requires 30+ dedicated people).
Okay, so I get people think I'm trolling. Let me say I'm sorry for the tone and reception of the original post. What I meant to say is EXACTLY what I said because it was an exercise in demonstrating what CG did in changing the raid rewards. They intended to do one thing, but people got upset as to how it actually happened, then they apologized and said they were going to fix it. I was making the point of how a lot of people (not necessarily the ones who answered here) were going INSANE and slinging accusations of LIAR and talking about how their trust was broken . . . over a game. An adult reaction, such as "well, the data shows such and such, so I don't think that is right" is perfect and a well reasoned response. Accusations of lying and malicious behavior are not well reasoned responses, but emotional reactions based on how the person felt about what happened. Keep it real, people, and let's remember this is just a bunch of pixels in a very well put together game, made by very imperfect people who make mistakes. But they are ADMITTING THEM, so that is very refreshing. Keep gaming, SWGOH fans!
This describes the whole situation perfectly. It is like the devs are treating us like hostages that aren't able to just walk away. Or they think we are stupid. These dev answers are just silly.
I sank 9 pieces of gear XII gear into my JTR team...
I sank 3 zetas on them as well.
I bought crystals to get my Phoenix and Nightsisters to gear XI, I almost have enough to zeta Assaj...
All so that I could earn the rewards I should be earning. Until now. Why did I bother?
More are completing it than you anticipated, so you take. You never give you only take.
I'm done. After 2 years in the same community most of which in the same guild I am done. This is the last straw. You don't improve something by taking from some to give to others. The increase in rewards to lower guild members and to the lower tiers in miniscule. The rewards you have taken from the top are a travesty.
I have Hoda set as my arena team, I am not bailing on my guild mates in the middle of a TB, but when rewards come in on Sunday. That's it.
I hope that's what you wanted, because I can't think of any other reason for doing this.
Well the rewards of the tiers 4 ,5 and 6 are also really really and really bad now , so tell me why ddi you said that they increased it ?
Lmao this is great! Kudos for taking the time to make that.
@CG_Carrie look I have always been a critique but recently stood by you guys after the ryDiggs fiasco because you made legitimate effort of communication, good will gifts, and, up until the rewards, positive changes to the game. Not to mention announcing the long awaited BH rework (still waiting on that update note btw...)
But here’s the issue. You guys did lie about the rewards. They’re awful now. Not just heroic, but across all tiers. You made the STR a huge time sink which is ok if the rewards meet the commitment. Right now they fall comically short, and having us wait two weeks while you collect data and evaluate isn’t going to cut it. HAAT and the Pit have better rewards now. Plain and simple. Only thing they don’t have is GEC and less Guild Tokens. That’s all. That’s not worth hours of commitment, dozens of retreats, mod reorganizations, and ridiculous RNG.
Do the right thing. Roll back the rewards pre nerf. Compensate the community with a good will gift and take a community poll on what they think are fair rewards. You know exactly who the big influencers are on these forums. You know exactly who on here can make level headed suggestions to help the long term health of the game. One of them is @Nikoms565 . I’m sure he could provide massive insight on a fair rewards structure.
A 100% of your player base would rather choose the rewards from THE PIT
This is the real travesty. How is it that Rancor rewards are still the best in the game? The ones you posted aren’t even that great and it’s still way better than STR. And for a 5 minute auto. Praying that they don’t nerf (flatten) those rewards any time soon
I sank 9 pieces of gear XII gear into my JTR team...
I sank 3 zetas on them as well.
I bought crystals to get my Phoenix and Nightsisters to gear XI, I almost have enough to zeta Assaj...
All so that I could earn the rewards I should be earning. Until now. Why did I bother?
More are completing it than you anticipated, so you take. You never give you only take.
I'm done. After 2 years in the same community most of which in the same guild I am done. This is the last straw. You don't improve something by taking from some to give to others. The increase in rewards to lower guild members and to the lower tiers in miniscule. The rewards you have taken from the top are a travesty.
I have Hoda set as my arena team, I am not bailing on my guild mates in the middle of a TB, but when rewards come in on Sunday. That's it.
I hope that's what you wanted, because I can't think of any other reason for doing this.
Well the rewards of the tiers 4 ,5 and 6 are also really really and really bad now , so tell me why ddi you said that they increased it ?
Having seen 1st hand the rewards in a T5 and a T6 I honestly don't believe they can be any lower. I thought all raid tiers rewards have been improved isn't that the company line? I thought that the lower tiers did see a little bit of an improvement though.
Haven't seen many screen shots from those lower tiers, so you are probably right.
I get a little tired of F2P people calling out the whales and telling them to quit crying or tell them to they entitled whenever a knee **** nerf happens.
If people don’t buy anything in the game the game disappears. That’s fine if you are F2P as everyone in the community is important. But those trying to beat Heroic Sith Raid and focus on squad development should never be penalized with weaker rewards. Insane.
Well based on my own experience, admitidally very limited, tier 4 rewards are also poor. Takes my guild the best part of 3 days to do it (either because we suck or whatever yadeyada...). This time round for third place i got 7 mk5 stun gun salvage and 12 mk8 binos. This is compared to a smattering of normally 6-8 bits of 4 different gears. Not sure of the numerics or economy of it it but it feels a lot worse.
Replies
I say this because I don't want my post to be construed as one side of the players yelling at another side, which is what the OP in this thread is actively doing. I want as rational a discussion among the players about this as possible. I want other players to tell me where I could have bias in my data. I want to inspire other players to pull their own data sets and to make their own analysis. Basically, I want the forums to grow up, which I know is a pipe dream.
So much to say, but I really don't want a permanent ban, so I'll just leave it at that.
What they game need is better beta testing. Overpowered squads should have been identified before it went live not 2weeks after. The amount of gear in the Heroic boxes might have been excessive, this should also have been fixed before it went live.
Instead beta testing here seems to be a way for certain guilds to gain an upper hand. You talk about imbalance between players... you have X set of players getting uber rewards for a month, and now everyone else will take forever to close the power gap.
I sank 3 zetas on them as well.
I bought crystals to get my Phoenix and Nightsisters to gear XI, I almost have enough to zeta Assaj...
All so that I could earn the rewards I should be earning. Until now. Why did I bother?
More are completing it than you anticipated, so you take. You never give you only take.
I'm done. After 2 years in the same community most of which in the same guild I am done. This is the last straw. You don't improve something by taking from some to give to others. The increase in rewards to lower guild members and to the lower tiers in miniscule. The rewards you have taken from the top are a travesty.
I have Hoda set as my arena team, I am not bailing on my guild mates in the middle of a TB, but when rewards come in on Sunday. That's it.
I hope that's what you wanted, because I can't think of any other reason for doing this.
What you just said 8s impossible. Do your math. 120k tickets requires 4 days. A week has 7. 91 raids is the maximum number of raids and not all of that is full pieces of gear. You need both a carbanti and stungun prot to make a mk5 stungun, cuffs and comlink, carbanti and detonator. And then you need full pieces of these for g11 finishers even though I want to include that but it won't happen. Even if you got full piece 6x91=546
So I guess you just don't care about the 12 Treya shards?
woohoo! only 546 pieces of gear!
Edit: As a personal opinon, i think the one thing the devs got right was that 1 full piece of g12 per raid isnt really a good idea for the game. That said, they definitely went about the wring way to solve the probelms
Seeing as the update has only been out a few days that would require at least another week and a half before that data could be released. Do you really think the people on here have that kind of patience?
Here's why a lot of people aren't willing to do that. "Wait and see," has always been code for "This is bad for you and you know it, but we have the keys, so you have to take it."
I too am glad to see some real communication going on here, but it just blows my mind that they can't see why this is a harmful move for players. I cannot believe that a building full of intelligent individuals can't brainstorm a better way to achieve what they are hoping to do -- one that doesn't poison everyone's individual experience under the guise of "making it slightly better for everyone".
There are real issues that need to be corrected. CG_Carrie and her team are right in that extremely beneficial rewards for the top of a guild compared to the bottom of a guild eventually generate a schism in power levels between the top rankers and the bottom rankers. These kinds of schisms are likely to fracture that guild when the next power level spike hits (Geonosis TB hit and now the top 25% of the guild is way stronger than the bottom 25% so let's exile the bottom 25%). Wanting to correct this issue is fine.
But raids are a pressure valve for the worst bottlenecks in the game, and letting them grant rewards that really make you feel like you are overcoming that bottleneck carries a lot of weight. A big part of this problem is that gear isn't tiered and controlled in a way that makes a good reward scheme work well. Certain pieces are tremendously amplified in demand (Mk3 Carbantis, Mk5 Stun Guns). Top rank players want to feel like they are getting that rewards hit for the effort they put into the raid. Mid rank players want to get the rewards hit so they can power up and better compete for the top ranks. Low rank players desperately want it so they can feel like they can compose the teams needed to progress towards what the mid and high rank players can do.
CG, you really really need to rework this raid decision so that everyone is getting access to the bottleneck gear they need to build up teams for this raid, and so that high ranking finishers feel like they're getting good kickbacks for the time they spend.
@SmilinStonee I can pm a link to a copy of my spreadsheet to somebody if they want to do the legwork of entering the data. I would obviously remove the heroic data if somebody wanted to focus on a different tier of the raid though. If somebody inputs the data and updates the old and new values for GET and guild currency for that tier, then most of the work will be done.
I think that the changes are necessary for the health of the game. Flattening HSTR especially is fairer due to the fact that you need so many committed guild members (places 1-3 are not doing 50% of the raid, it requires 30+ dedicated people).
#BringBackTheOldRewardsToHeroicSith
Be careful of what you wish for
This describes the whole situation perfectly. It is like the devs are treating us like hostages that aren't able to just walk away. Or they think we are stupid. These dev answers are just silly.
Well the rewards of the tiers 4 ,5 and 6 are also really really and really bad now , so tell me why ddi you said that they increased it ?
Lmao this is great! Kudos for taking the time to make that.
@CG_Carrie look I have always been a critique but recently stood by you guys after the ryDiggs fiasco because you made legitimate effort of communication, good will gifts, and, up until the rewards, positive changes to the game. Not to mention announcing the long awaited BH rework (still waiting on that update note btw...)
But here’s the issue. You guys did lie about the rewards. They’re awful now. Not just heroic, but across all tiers. You made the STR a huge time sink which is ok if the rewards meet the commitment. Right now they fall comically short, and having us wait two weeks while you collect data and evaluate isn’t going to cut it. HAAT and the Pit have better rewards now. Plain and simple. Only thing they don’t have is GEC and less Guild Tokens. That’s all. That’s not worth hours of commitment, dozens of retreats, mod reorganizations, and ridiculous RNG.
Do the right thing. Roll back the rewards pre nerf. Compensate the community with a good will gift and take a community poll on what they think are fair rewards. You know exactly who the big influencers are on these forums. You know exactly who on here can make level headed suggestions to help the long term health of the game. One of them is @Nikoms565 . I’m sure he could provide massive insight on a fair rewards structure.
This is the real travesty. How is it that Rancor rewards are still the best in the game? The ones you posted aren’t even that great and it’s still way better than STR. And for a 5 minute auto. Praying that they don’t nerf (flatten) those rewards any time soon
Having seen 1st hand the rewards in a T5 and a T6 I honestly don't believe they can be any lower. I thought all raid tiers rewards have been improved isn't that the company line? I thought that the lower tiers did see a little bit of an improvement though.
Haven't seen many screen shots from those lower tiers, so you are probably right.
If people don’t buy anything in the game the game disappears. That’s fine if you are F2P as everyone in the community is important. But those trying to beat Heroic Sith Raid and focus on squad development should never be penalized with weaker rewards. Insane.