They do not care.
The only thing that will cause them to care is when their profit margin drops.
Until that happens, they will continue to not care.
All the Q&A's in the world are not going to change this.
Only one thing will.
Assumptions: That in the new system all full pieces in the loot table have an equal chance of dropping, at both the 100% promised drop rate and the current and further down the line future.
Clarifications: G12 GET piece cost = 5,600 GET. When rancor piece is talked about, I am using an mk3 carb as the baseline piece.
Under the promised 100% drop rate in the new system:
[] All ranks 15 or greater take a loss when pieces are converted to their GET and Guild Currency equivalent (cost to purchase from the store).
[] Ranks 16-30 are basically a wash on guild currency while taking about 1/3 of a g12 piece's value loss
[] Rank 31-40 are gaining 1/2 of a rancor piece from the guild store and losing about 1/3 of a g12 piece
[] Rank 41-50 are gaining about 3/4 of a rancor piece from the guild store and losing about 1/8 of a g12 piece
[] Total
loss for the guild: GET = 106,939; Guild Currency = 726
[] Average loss per member: GET = 2,138; Guild Currency = 14
Under the current and future planned 40% full piece drop rate:
Imgur
100% drop rates in new system
Imgur
40% drop rates in new system
Under the current and future planned 40% full piece drop rate:
[] All ranks taking a loss in GET and Guild Currency
[] Rank 1-3 are losing over a full piece of g12 gear (about 1.25 piece loss) and a little over 4 rancor pieces
[] Rank 3-10 are losing about 3/4 of a g12 piece and a little over 1.5 rancor pieces
[] Rank 11-20 are losing about half of a g12 piece and almost a full rancor piece
[] Rank 31-40 are losing about half of a g12 piece and about 1/3 of a rancor piece
[] Rank 41-50 are losing about 1/4 of a g12 piece and taking a small loss on guild currency equivalents
[] Total
loss for the guild: GET = 148939; Guild Currency = 129,526
[] Average loss per member: GET = 2,978; Guild Currency = 2,590
This certainly does not reflect how I interpret when @CG_Carrie said in an April 2 post that "Given the difficult of the raid, we will be increasing the rewards a bit" nor does it match "To our Heroic raiders: please take some time over the next couple of weeks and take a look at the aggregate GP lift among your guildmates... and the rate of growth in ALL players' ability to complete the raid, over the coming weeks". This represents a total loss for the guild in both scenarios, and the only gain can be seen in the 100% drop rate scenario for members that get rank 31+ (and even then only in guild currency since they are still losing GET equivalence).
Now, we are getting g12.5 gear added and that loot will be added to the loot tables. The only way that gear being added makes up for the current losses in GET under the 40% full drop rate scenario (since they have been said to come at the same time in May) is if we a) get between 35 and 40 pieces of salvage AND b) it has the same GET cost as the current g12 gear. In my opinion, both of those are very unlikely.
@CG_Carrie@CG_SaIera@CG_TopHat and any other CG employee that this is pertinent to, if you have any data that shows my tables above are incorrect please provide. Also, if you don't want to provide hard data, you can provide drop rates under the new loot system and old loot system and I will happily calculate the expected value of gains or losses for guilds and members.
Getting into my personal opinion of the changes, I can understand if CG thinks the original boxes dropped too much loot. I can swallow that from a business perspective. What I can't quite comprehend are statements that this is better for our guilds in the long term, when it obviously isn't.
I welcome any dev comments that challenges the validity of this analysis.
This latest communication is terrible too. CG, you just don't get why the players are upset or if you do then you just don't care.
1.) Killing the rewards was NOT what people wanted but that's what you did. All we wanted was no challenge gear in the rewards.
2.) I understand flattening the rewards curve for T6 & T7. This makes sense as those tiers require full guild efforts to complete. Maybe even T5. But T4 and below does not require equal effort from all guild members. Flattened rewards do not make sense at those tiers.
3.) I can understand slightly nerfing the rewards on the heroic tier as the quantity of g12 rewards was a little over the top and you were concerned about the long term consequences as the gap between high level and lower level players widens. But even still, there is already a large gap between top tier guilds and the rest of the player base that the additional gear won't matter that much between the two bases as a whole. Another option would have been to offer better rewards at lower tiers in the raid to help that player base improve up to the highest tier. That could easily take months or a year to reach fruition but ultimately everyone would get to the highest tier. Currently, there is no path up to HSTR if your guild is currently at Tier IV or lower. The rewards are not good enough to help these guild succeed. Your changes have forced that gap to continue to widen jeopardizing the very thing you were supposedly trying to protect.
The ball has been dropped on this PR opportunity. You had everyone believing that you were going to do something great for the game and then you took a huge giant step back. You don't have long to figure out how to reverse the damage.
1. Truth
2 and 3. Rewards should be flattened. But in flattening them they also nerfed them across all payouts.
What this raid needed was a payout in line with the difficulty and effort. Maybe heroic was in need of some adjusting down but for all other tiers the rewards are a slap in the face.
The whole raid reward structure has been an issue in each raid causing guild to manufacture sets of rule to limit participation. This was correctly addressed with tb and tw implementation why not with raids...
This adjustment to flatten should have placed all rewards around what would be considered 4th - 5th place prize tier. This should give 4-50 the chance at the same random box and same everything else. Then some sort of lil bit extra for top 3 in the form of some currency. After all, this is a team effort.
Sith raid has been an absolute failure since launch.
And yes business moves at the need of the customer but there seems to be a gulf between how the community decides as soon as possible and CG does, and my point was just that there are business realities at play that likely limit their agility on some these things.
Whilst correct, this completely disregards the fact that the situation would not exist in the first place, people would not be up in arms & the forums would not be full of flame wars, if they hadn't implemented this change in the first place.
CG messed this up badly & lied to their customers, again.
If any mobile phone manufacturer sold their phones from an advertising campaign which promised certain functionality which was provided, then subsequently downgraded or removed, would someone buy a phone from them again?
If one then bought a 2nd phone from them on another similar promise & the same thing happened again, there's no-one else to blame for the customer being in that position.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
How long does this need to continue before the customer realises?
I really can't believe some of the people here. You realize Carrie's response basically means this team is probably saying goodbye to their families until this gets released right? You don't just cut a timeline in half by sheer magic.
I wanted to respond to this one. I appreciate the touch of humanity in this forum, but also on this Earth.
That being said... I have a strong feeling that the original timeline, and also this new one, are calculated not based on the available workforce, but for trying to minimize the amount of time we are able to play without this nerf.
Two weeks, and then the nerf could kick in again less than a week later. That’s basically one, maybe two raids worth of gear.
They collect and analyze data enough - that estimate was guaranteed driven by “we can minimize our loss of profit by X if we can hold them to Y date and not roll this back immediately”
So yeah, we should speak our minds respectfully - even in spite of any deceptive practices and whatnot going on. But let’s be realistic too.
Here’s what sets this mess apart from previous CG mistakes: it hurts everyone, yes, but also directly targets the top 1% of their player base. The people most hurt by this are those who were finishing 1-3 in HST. Do these people deserve your sympathy? Certainly not. But you’d better believe that if CG ticks them off this much, it’s going to hurt the game.
Rank 50 should NEVER get better rewards than rank 1 (unless their scores are somehow similar, like full clears in rancor). That’s pretty basic stuff, but I’ve seen screenshots of 36 salvage at rank 1 and 36 salvage PLUS 2 full pieces at rank 50. That’s someone who did 15 million damage, vs someone who posted a zero. It tells us that the most basic common sense tenets of rewards structuring were not considered.
What complicates this mess is that in rancor, many people can post full clears. The same will be true of tank soon enough. So there actually SHOULD be some flattening there since those people put in the same effort. Of course I’m talking about properly implemented flattening, not the “destroy everyone’s rewards” kind of flattening we just saw.
Sweet. "Communication" is back. Vague answers, no response to threads and then closing them to get buried, addressing 1/10 of the problem then ignoring the rest and calling it a solution.
Man, things sure have changed here.
In case you weren't aware, that couldn't have been anymore sarcastic @CG_Carrie
A guess a leopard never changes its spots.
Lol - so true. In 2+ years, the only thing that has changed is who tries to tell us that the moisture on our heads is rain.
That kitten is rain? Well I’ll be damned... good to know. I though it was my ball cap.
Post edited by Sunnie1978 on
I hate these new timesinks called Tb/tw. Annoying features.
I remember back when I bought an asus p5p-dhw (I think) mother board to run with my core 2 duo extreme edition. The point of this was extreme edition allows the clock multiplier to be raised. Worked fine for 2 years and then asus in their wisdom decided we could only lower clock multipliers not raise them. I spent several hours on the phone while they explained to me they did not support overclocking and I tried explaining their website said we could raise multipliers. Long and short I don’t use asus boards anymore...
That seems somehow similar to the situation here. Loot is improved (debatable) but quantity of loot is so low the improvement is nearly pointless. No wait it is a pointless improvement. As I said previously it ain’t enough to make me quit yet. But it sure as hell is enough to make me pretty damned grouchy....
I hate these new timesinks called Tb/tw. Annoying features.
If any mobile phone manufacturer sold their phones from an advertising campaign which promised certain functionality which was provided, then subsequently downgraded or removed, would someone buy a phone from them again?
If one then bought a 2nd phone from them on another similar promise & the same thing happened again, there's no-one else to blame for the customer being in that position.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
How long does this need to continue before the customer realises?
still no words for the other tiers, only heroic... meanwhile it has become realy disrespectful from you
maybe we non-heroic guilds get attention from you @CG_Carrie when we are presenting you a gift? here is my present for you @CG_Carrie ajar on the good old Chief Nebit: a new avatar for you
please use it so we can see that we non-heroic guilds were at least heard, even if you don´t do anything for us...
We’re getting HAAT rewards just finished a HSTR rewards across the board 90 percent HAAT rewards only a couple g12 drops. This can’t be what’s intended @CG_Carrie
We’re getting HAAT rewards just finished a HSTR rewards across the board 90 percent HAAT rewards only a couple g12 drops. This can’t be what’s intended @CG_Carrie
Don’t believe they’ve touched HAAT or Pit. Trust me, you’ll know for certain when they do.
What hes saying is that the hsith raid is dropping mostly haat and rancor level gear
We’re getting HAAT rewards just finished a HSTR rewards across the board 90 percent HAAT rewards only a couple g12 drops. This can’t be what’s intended @CG_Carrie
Don’t believe they’ve touched HAAT or Pit. Trust me, you’ll know for certain when they do.
What hes saying is that the hsith raid is dropping mostly haat and rancor level gear
The only way this nerf would of been slightly ok is if they decided to guarantee to drop a Full MK3 Carbanti/Mk5 stun gun along with the almost miniscule amount of other gear they gave us. But no, they decided to take it all way to the lowest possible, hoping us to be naive enough not to notice.
The idea that Sith Raid rewards are trash now and it was supposed to help grow guild GP is silly. There are alternative ways for players to gain GP without hurting the whales and krakens:
1. Leave Raid rewards alone UNLESS you will decrease the likelihood of two full pieces a Raid and instead keep it at 1. It still takes forever to add all the G12 gear for all toons. At most it’s 2 G12 pieces a week for 2 Heroic Sith Raids. Not gonna break the game. Can’t even finish a toon that way as three slots need filled.
2. Instead of 60-80 shards or so of a toon how about drop a full 7* toons worth with a log in reward with the Zeta for monthly Calender log in. It would give more players a reason to join. They don’t have to be epic toons but new players can quickly advance up and everyone else has tons of shards to use for shard shop. GP would rise quickly if everyone had more full 7* toons.
3. Experience energy can be converted into fleet currency which will help everyone in mod shop or used to buy Raid gear such as Stun cuffs, carbantis, and Droid collars. It takes a whale multiple of these pieces to get GP up and it would push newer and F2P players to get their toons quickly to G9-G10 before they really start feeling the gear grind.
Those are my thoughts on how the game isn’t ruined and both F2P and P2P can thrive in this game.
Its NOT their level of commitment for the TOP 3 spots... it's the people who refuse to attack P1 and P4 because 2 and 3 are so easy..... Your rewarding guild members who hold back teams needed on P1 and P4 who just attack P2 and P3 so they can get the top rewards.... Your not rewarding people your hurting the actual people doing the work
Leave it the way it is now if it keeps encouraging people to only attack certain phases
By going back to the old rewards structure your hurting the people doing the work in the raids.... We grind out the P1' and P4's with our best teams so slackers can just wait till P2 and P3 to put up the big scores...We do the work they reap the rewards... Just give everyone the same thing or keep it flattened where everyone gets close to the same and maybe a little more for the top 3...
By going back to the old rewards structure your hurting the people doing the work in the raids.... We grind out the P1' and P4's with our best teams so slackers can just wait till P2 and P3 to put up the big scores...We do the work they reap the rewards... Just give everyone the same thing or keep it flattened where everyone gets close to the same and maybe a little more for the top 3...
Don't reward people who are not doing the work
A counter argument would be that the democratization of rewards encourages the same behavior that you think the old system does. While you bring up a valid point, it isn't a new element to this game. Cherry picking phases has been going on for a while now in other raids. One solution is to allow the guild leader to disallow rewards if a certain contribution level isn't reach. Or simply eliminate rewards for posting a zero. That said, such a remedy only works of the raid is generally fun. Many people are foregoing contribution because they aren't enjoying the STR, and it's hard to fault them for that. Ultimately this is as much a guild issues (probably moreso) than something that has a programmatic solution. If the guild is annoyed with a few outliers not participating, there already exists a remedy for that. If it isn't an outlier, then ... as I said it's a different problem entirely.
@Dk_rek I'm not sure what tier you're doing but at heroic p1 and dn p4 are the places that can decide where you place. If I miss p1 I have a hard time placing close to the top. Heroic p1 are where the largest scores happen unless you have ns for p4.
@Dk_rek I'm not sure what tier you're doing but at heroic p1 and dn p4 are the places that can decide where you place. If I miss p1 I have a hard time placing close to the top. Heroic p1 are where the largest scores happen unless you have ns for p4.
Plus you roster dump after DN is dead and pray you don't get screwed by the damage bug. Top 3 finish these days can be determined by rng as much as skill, roster and time.
@Dk_rek I'm not sure what tier you're doing but at heroic p1 and dn p4 are the places that can decide where you place. If I miss p1 I have a hard time placing close to the top. Heroic p1 are where the largest scores happen unless you have ns for p4.
Plus you roster dump after DN is dead and pray you don't get screwed by the damage bug. Top 3 finish these days can be determined by rng as much as skill, roster and time.
Not to mention the underlying problem with every raid they have released. Rewards are based on time available as much as skill/roster. There is a very small window where guilds can complete the raid naturally until there have to be rules out in place to contain damage so everyone has a chance to hit. For our guild we really only had about 2 raids that were fun, and now it’s on a schedule, and if it doesn’t fit your schedule you are just screwed.
Why can’t they make the raids last a minimum of 24 hours. Everyone can opt to go into any phase and battle it, and while you see the total guild progress on the home screen, you battle from the beginning. At the end of 24 hours if the damage is there for every phase you win the raid. This allows for everyone to play the raid and we don’t have to worry about posting 0s, designing schedules to fit every member as best as possible, or any of those Raid hassles that come with a guild being too strong for a raid.
just got the new and "improved" rewards and all i am thinking is how could anybody have ever thought this would be ok. absolutely disrespectful to your player base. do not pull this again or i am out. how about u focus instead on increasing the drop rate of raid gear? they are ridiculously inconsistent. without buying them via crystals i would get nowhere and i am raiding as much as possible.
@Hbk146 your last sentence hit the nail on the head in fact if I was you I'd add in a mic drop on the end and ask a mod to close the thread. End of discussion. We all know this and thats why we liked our heroic rewards so much. Its like they'd thrown the dog a bone only it was a juicy bone and now they've wrested it away
I really don’t know what all the fuss is about. They said they were flattening the reward payouts and that’s exacly what they have done. The rewards were abysmal for 95% and they have flattened it to 100%... sorted.
Just do what we do, start a t4 or t5, chuck a few teams at it on auto and collect your “rewards” when they eventually payout.. if you can be bothered.
Let’s not forget, this is WAI and is the designed meaning of “the spirit of the raid”
Replies
The only thing that will cause them to care is when their profit margin drops.
Until that happens, they will continue to not care.
All the Q&A's in the world are not going to change this.
Only one thing will.
1. Truth
2 and 3. Rewards should be flattened. But in flattening them they also nerfed them across all payouts.
What this raid needed was a payout in line with the difficulty and effort. Maybe heroic was in need of some adjusting down but for all other tiers the rewards are a slap in the face.
The whole raid reward structure has been an issue in each raid causing guild to manufacture sets of rule to limit participation. This was correctly addressed with tb and tw implementation why not with raids...
This adjustment to flatten should have placed all rewards around what would be considered 4th - 5th place prize tier. This should give 4-50 the chance at the same random box and same everything else. Then some sort of lil bit extra for top 3 in the form of some currency. After all, this is a team effort.
Sith raid has been an absolute failure since launch.
CG messed this up badly & lied to their customers, again.
If one then bought a 2nd phone from them on another similar promise & the same thing happened again, there's no-one else to blame for the customer being in that position.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
How long does this need to continue before the customer realises?
I wanted to respond to this one. I appreciate the touch of humanity in this forum, but also on this Earth.
That being said... I have a strong feeling that the original timeline, and also this new one, are calculated not based on the available workforce, but for trying to minimize the amount of time we are able to play without this nerf.
Two weeks, and then the nerf could kick in again less than a week later. That’s basically one, maybe two raids worth of gear.
They collect and analyze data enough - that estimate was guaranteed driven by “we can minimize our loss of profit by X if we can hold them to Y date and not roll this back immediately”
So yeah, we should speak our minds respectfully - even in spite of any deceptive practices and whatnot going on. But let’s be realistic too.
Rank 50 should NEVER get better rewards than rank 1 (unless their scores are somehow similar, like full clears in rancor). That’s pretty basic stuff, but I’ve seen screenshots of 36 salvage at rank 1 and 36 salvage PLUS 2 full pieces at rank 50. That’s someone who did 15 million damage, vs someone who posted a zero. It tells us that the most basic common sense tenets of rewards structuring were not considered.
What complicates this mess is that in rancor, many people can post full clears. The same will be true of tank soon enough. So there actually SHOULD be some flattening there since those people put in the same effort. Of course I’m talking about properly implemented flattening, not the “destroy everyone’s rewards” kind of flattening we just saw.
That kitten is rain? Well I’ll be damned... good to know. I though it was my ball cap.
That seems somehow similar to the situation here. Loot is improved (debatable) but quantity of loot is so low the improvement is nearly pointless. No wait it is a pointless improvement. As I said previously it ain’t enough to make me quit yet. But it sure as hell is enough to make me pretty damned grouchy....
maybe we non-heroic guilds get attention from you @CG_Carrie when we are presenting you a gift? here is my present for you @CG_Carrie ajar on the good old Chief Nebit: a new avatar for you
please use it so we can see that we non-heroic guilds were at least heard, even if you don´t do anything for us...
What hes saying is that the hsith raid is dropping mostly haat and rancor level gear
1. Leave Raid rewards alone UNLESS you will decrease the likelihood of two full pieces a Raid and instead keep it at 1. It still takes forever to add all the G12 gear for all toons. At most it’s 2 G12 pieces a week for 2 Heroic Sith Raids. Not gonna break the game. Can’t even finish a toon that way as three slots need filled.
2. Instead of 60-80 shards or so of a toon how about drop a full 7* toons worth with a log in reward with the Zeta for monthly Calender log in. It would give more players a reason to join. They don’t have to be epic toons but new players can quickly advance up and everyone else has tons of shards to use for shard shop. GP would rise quickly if everyone had more full 7* toons.
3. Experience energy can be converted into fleet currency which will help everyone in mod shop or used to buy Raid gear such as Stun cuffs, carbantis, and Droid collars. It takes a whale multiple of these pieces to get GP up and it would push newer and F2P players to get their toons quickly to G9-G10 before they really start feeling the gear grind.
Those are my thoughts on how the game isn’t ruined and both F2P and P2P can thrive in this game.
Leave it the way it is now if it keeps encouraging people to only attack certain phases
By going back to the old rewards structure your hurting the people doing the work in the raids.... We grind out the P1' and P4's with our best teams so slackers can just wait till P2 and P3 to put up the big scores...We do the work they reap the rewards... Just give everyone the same thing or keep it flattened where everyone gets close to the same and maybe a little more for the top 3...
Don't reward people who are not doing the work
A counter argument would be that the democratization of rewards encourages the same behavior that you think the old system does. While you bring up a valid point, it isn't a new element to this game. Cherry picking phases has been going on for a while now in other raids. One solution is to allow the guild leader to disallow rewards if a certain contribution level isn't reach. Or simply eliminate rewards for posting a zero. That said, such a remedy only works of the raid is generally fun. Many people are foregoing contribution because they aren't enjoying the STR, and it's hard to fault them for that. Ultimately this is as much a guild issues (probably moreso) than something that has a programmatic solution. If the guild is annoyed with a few outliers not participating, there already exists a remedy for that. If it isn't an outlier, then ... as I said it's a different problem entirely.
Plus you roster dump after DN is dead and pray you don't get screwed by the damage bug. Top 3 finish these days can be determined by rng as much as skill, roster and time.
Not to mention the underlying problem with every raid they have released. Rewards are based on time available as much as skill/roster. There is a very small window where guilds can complete the raid naturally until there have to be rules out in place to contain damage so everyone has a chance to hit. For our guild we really only had about 2 raids that were fun, and now it’s on a schedule, and if it doesn’t fit your schedule you are just screwed.
Why can’t they make the raids last a minimum of 24 hours. Everyone can opt to go into any phase and battle it, and while you see the total guild progress on the home screen, you battle from the beginning. At the end of 24 hours if the damage is there for every phase you win the raid. This allows for everyone to play the raid and we don’t have to worry about posting 0s, designing schedules to fit every member as best as possible, or any of those Raid hassles that come with a guild being too strong for a raid.
Just do what we do, start a t4 or t5, chuck a few teams at it on auto and collect your “rewards” when they eventually payout.. if you can be bothered.
Let’s not forget, this is WAI and is the designed meaning of “the spirit of the raid”
Classic stuff