Can we get an update on cheating?

Replies

  • Veloxraptor
    6 posts Member
    edited August 2019
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    Cheating!
    They deleted my last post in about 10 seconds!
    Are players who use it, EA just trying to hide it!
    Shame to whales who spend hills of money on the game! Is enough to cheat!
    No one is talking or admitting it!!!
    This post will be cancelled in 10 seconds..
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    Options
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."
  • Options
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    It's more accurate to say that the actions they have taken have not had the desired impact of identifying and mitigating cheating in the game. Bulldog's experiment is proof positive that there are some fairly serious flaws in the anti-cheating solution implementation.

    One could argue that there is more effort being put into eradicating the awareness of cheating than the actual cheating itself, but we can't really quantify that because we can't measure the level of effort that has been put into mitigating cheating. We can only measure the ineffectiveness of said effort.
  • Veloxraptor
    6 posts Member
    edited August 2019
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    Maaah
  • Options
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    The statement, while a bit clumsy, is not baseless. Reworded as, "Cg has provided nothing player visible to really put a halt to what is happening." is true. They've made claims that they're doing stuff and things are better, sure. Those claims don't really hold much weight when the players aren't allowed to see behind the curtain.

    Is all the secrecy really worth this level of disillusionment every time a new cheating scandal arises? I guess they think so. It seems many disagree and I'd bet if they ever polled on this it would be a large majority that disagree.

    Committing to a simple battle log or replay would go a long way to soothing the unrest in this instance.
  • Gair
    616 posts Member
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    I went to watch this video claim and EA put a copyright claim on it. Lol..
  • tj5270
    177 posts Member
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    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    This! Apparently I am being moderated as well, because my posts seem to not make it to the forum.
  • Alinoe
    68 posts Member
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    @Kyno sir there is any place on forum where i can report cheater? I did it in game but remember that there was some channel where i could do that few months ago
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    edited August 2019
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    Erebus2017 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    It's more accurate to say that the actions they have taken have not had the desired impact of identifying and mitigating cheating in the game. Bulldog's experiment is proof positive that there are some fairly serious flaws in the anti-cheating solution implementation.

    We have zero proof that there is any effort, though. So, sure, it's possible that they implemented the stuff they said and it just doesn't work. It's also possible they just nope'd right out of actually doing anything, and hoped no one would notice.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
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    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    That would only be true if they did nothing in that time, and also didnt try to implement the new tools, both of which happened, which means saying "they have done nothing" is not based on any facts.

    We also dont know what that tool does or how automated or effective it is. If they caught 50% of the players doing this that is something.

    If the tools is only to flag them so that the team can investigate and take action as the investigation process is completed, that is not nothing.

    Either way during this exhibition we have seen players get banned.
    Saying it's not enough is different than saying they have done nothing.
  • Options
    They can't catch anyone if they don't have the forensics in place to catch them. It's unclear what information is available to them so we're all just throwing darts in the dark at what their capabilities are. Be sure, we will not be told, because exposing their capabilities just invites different avenues for exploit.

    The state of the art for storage at internet scale is more than capable enough to allow them to log enough information to recreate a match. As @Vinniarth pointed out, textual representations of the actions taken in game, along with the exact mod loadouts or stat sets is certainly feasible at this scale.

    A more complicated but also highly possible action would be to re-evaluate the matches move by move using a non-graphical version of the in-game engine and flag any significant differences between expected outcomes vs. actual outcomes. Rules could be in place to flag any suspicious match results prior to this step to manage volume.

    Many, many systems are built like this. There is nothing novel or unique about them; just a ticket on an agile board somewhere that needs to be prioritized ahead of something else. The player base's collective voice helps move this prioritization. The player base's collective spending does so even more effectively.
  • Kyno
    32087 posts Moderator
    Options
    Alinoe wrote: »
    Kyno sir there is any place on forum where i can report cheater? I did it in game but remember that there was some channel where i could do that few months ago

    @Alinoe
    Report A Potential Cheater: If you want to report a potential cheater, please send a message to @CG_Leviathan with details on why you think someone is cheating and your ally code plus the ally code and name of the suspected cheater.
  • Liath
    5140 posts Member
    Options
    Alinoe wrote: »
    @Kyno sir there is any place on forum where i can report cheater? I did it in game but remember that there was some channel where i could do that few months ago

    Send a PM to CG_Leviathan.
    StarSon wrote: »
    Erebus2017 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    It's more accurate to say that the actions they have taken have not had the desired impact of identifying and mitigating cheating in the game. Bulldog's experiment is proof positive that there are some fairly serious flaws in the anti-cheating solution implementation.

    We have zero proof that there is any effort, though. So, sure, it's possible that they implemented the stuff they said and it just doesn't work. It's also possible they just nope'd right out of actually doing anything, and hoped no one would notice.

    If you don't believe their posts about what they're doing there's nothing that would satisfy you.
  • tj5270
    177 posts Member
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    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    This is not baseless. I am not saying Cg didn’t try to implement measures, but there is video proof that what they’ve done has accomplished none of what it was set out to do. His ability to manipulate the matches for 2 months going undetected, is all basis of my original statement. Cg can have the e effort, but this is blatant and in your face, and not something that should be ignored. If they cannot implement ACTUAL methods to have this stopped or better policed, then they really need to halt the pvp game modes taking place. This goes back to tournaments.
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    Options
    Kyno wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."
    and also didnt try to implement the new tools, both of which happened, which means saying "they have done nothing" is not based on any facts.

    We actually have no idea if they did this or not. They said they did, and players have been given the standard week bans during the Exhibition, so sure, they aren't doing "nothing." What we do know, is that if they implemented an auto tool it doesn't work.

    Honestly, based on their history of caring about cheating, I'm inclined to believe they never added anything to the game and still rely on player reports.
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    Options
    evoluza wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Erebus2017 wrote: »
    StarSon wrote: »
    Kyno wrote: »
    tj5270 wrote: »
    Ultra wrote: »
    Monel wrote: »
    The problem with a program like that is there is no stopping it unless you find a way to block the program all together. All a cheater needs to do is create a new account after being banned and they can cheat their way right back to the top.

    Adding defensive replays would stop the biggest part of it. While there could be subtle cheating line improving damage by 10% of something that people might not notice, it still means everything is right out in the open. Blatant cheating in PvP would disappear instantly.
    I don't think defensive replays are a reasonable ask. You've got millions of players in Grand Arena, each doing multiple battles, from as low as 0 battles to 8+, some sending junk teams doing 0 damage so that one team can have a defensive score of 80 or something for reddit karma

    Each video needs to be compressed and stored on the server and its very costly on space

    I’d settle for a text recap. Team used, damage done by characters on both sides, time elapsed, maybe total number of attacks/turns for each toon.

    Thanks for exposing this and bringing up solutions to the problem. Anything is better then nothing, and Cg has provided nothing to really put a halt to what is happening. I think it may be more costly, but the other side is to take down ANYTHING pvp related, as it has the potential to just be exploited and cheated on.

    That is absolutely not true. Let's leave the baseless accusations out of this.

    It may not be true, but it is not a baseless accusation. Bulldog spent two months proving their automated tools don't work at all. That's basis for claiming that "they are doing nothing."

    It's more accurate to say that the actions they have taken have not had the desired impact of identifying and mitigating cheating in the game. Bulldog's experiment is proof positive that there are some fairly serious flaws in the anti-cheating solution implementation.

    We have zero proof that there is any effort, though. So, sure, it's possible that they implemented the stuff they said and it just doesn't work. It's also possible they just nope'd right out of actually doing anything, and hoped no one would notice.

    I could mention that you also have zero proof of anything.

    I mean, we have proof that any tools they implemented don't work.
    Liath wrote: »
    If you don't believe their posts about what they're doing there's nothing that would satisfy you.

    I'm being optimistic today, remember? If they had something to show for it, I could believe them. And, in fact, until this video, I honestly did believe they did what they said. I may not be giving them my money any more but I am still playing, and I will definitely stop playing if I ever get to the point you think I'm at.

    It's just that, as with so many other things, this is such an easy problem to fix. But as the years drag by, I find it increasingly difficult to believe that they care to fix them.
  • Options
    Liath wrote: »
    Why are people acting like this is news?

    Because Youtube is life? Derp!

  • Options
    I’ve worked in cheat prevention in PC FPS games and I can tell you doing your proper due diligence to catch and justifiably punish cheaters takes more time than most people realize. Or are willing to accept. So I’m not going to complain about how long CG takes to deal with these things.

    However, I think I have an issue with the severity of their punishments. I think (not sure) from evidence I’ve seen in my ship shard with a probable cheater, they only temp ban (and only for a few weeks) first time offenders. In my opinion all PvP cheaters should at least be perma banned from PvP (if that’s possible to do without banning the account completely) or just straight up perma banned completely.
  • Options
    I love this game. I've watched the videos with a mix of shock, intrigue, awe and horror. I don't like it, but I can also imagine how hard it is to defend against local code manipulation.

    As a committed player of the game, I'd like to be part of the solution. If I can help, test, whatever, sign me up, I'm there.

    If there's a way through this I want to be a part of it
  • Options
    Ambassador wrote: »
    Mfish wrote: »
    @CG_Erik please say something to restore my confidence after the cheating being brought to light. I have spent $9k on swgoh because it is an enjoyable hobby for me. This new information makes me uneasy.
    Seconded. Probably slightly less money spent, but same problem here : I’m starting to lose my trust.

    Thirded (if that's even a valid word!) I've spent a little more than that and feel the same

    Y'all know this has been a thing since the game was released, right?
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    Options
    Ambassador wrote: »
    Mfish wrote: »
    @CG_Erik please say something to restore my confidence after the cheating being brought to light. I have spent $9k on swgoh because it is an enjoyable hobby for me. This new information makes me uneasy.
    Seconded. Probably slightly less money spent, but same problem here : I’m starting to lose my trust.

    Thirded (if that's even a valid word!) I've spent a little more than that and feel the same

    Y'all know this has been a thing since the game was released, right?

    Sure. That's why tournaments aren't a thing any more. But considering they said in June they had new fangled automated tools to catch this and there's video proof that those tools, if they exist, don't work... that is the news, not the fact that cheats exist.
  • StarSon
    7472 posts Member
    edited August 2019
    Options
    evoluza wrote: »
    That's no proof that nothing is happening.
    Also, easy problem to fix..
    People simply don't understand cheating on the client side of the game.
    If they could easily prevent it, they would do. They explicitly said they wanna create competition in GAC, this doesn't happen with cheaters.
    The real GAC is also not live. They could still work on it.
    Don't expect any response just because of that little outrage from unreasonable people.

    I didn't say nothing is happening, just that their automated tools don't work.
    I am aware that you can't prevent cheating on the client side when that's where all the combat happens. I never suggested you could. But you should be able to tell that it happened after the fact without relying on player reports. Supposedly, they could do that now. Except they can't.
    And no, I don't expect a response, but people being upset by this video are not unreasonable. CG said they were doing things to keep cheaters out of GAC, and they have failed. Lots of people spend lots of money on this game, and it is perfectly reasonable for them to be upset that CG isn't following through with their promises.
  • Options
    Yeah I'd really like an update now on this issue myself. The guy who won my GAC only has 2.8 gp, no DR, and maybe like 8 viable teams overall and yet he somehow beat everyone else who are all at 3.5-3.7 gp, have G13 DR teams and heavy rosters...I did the math too and this guy somehow managed to 1 shot each of my defensive teams getting a minimum of 58 banners per team and yet those same teams held out against other players with larger & stronger rosters in the previous rounds...
  • Options
    Just remember. All those cheaters are getting all their personal information stolen by Russians and Koreans! So it all evens out in the end!
  • Options
    true problem w/ cheaters is that they are not good enough to compete within the rules.
  • Options
    @CG_TopHat are you seeing this?
This discussion has been closed.