this is gac data and has nothing to do with arena.
yeah, for complainer and conspiracy theorists data is the leap of logic
- I am not making a case for anything related to SEE, nor did this post advocate for changes to him. Please be civil.
- I acknowledged the fact that the data I pulled was from arena, not from GAC, and I explained how I think it appropriately correlates to the fact that JML is very often used outside of the lead slot. GAC only pulls data for JML in the lead slot. Thus I am simply pointing out that your data is by no means perfect, and should not be used for a comparison of the defensive viablity of two characters because it is going to be missing a substantial portion of the data for JML.
this is gac data and has nothing to do with arena.
yeah, for complainer and conspiracy theorists data is the leap of logic
- I am not making a case for anything related to SEE, nor did this post advocate for changes to him. Please be civil.
- I acknowledged the fact that the data I pulled was from arena, not from GAC, and I explained how I think it appropriately correlates to the fact that JML is very often used outside of the lead slot. GAC only pulls data for JML in the lead slot. Thus I am simply pointing out that your data is by no means perfect, and should not be used for a comparison of the defensive viablity of two characters because it is going to be missing a substantial portion of the data for JML.
the data shows the defense viability of their lead.
that's a fact.
I looked up the defense battles from bastila and jkr with jml. they are not not very often used, so maybe not representative but they didn't hold much better.
why people tend to use jml for offense could have different reasons, maybe some think he is good on offense, some may think he is bad on defense, but this is speculation only
@mikk207 Look at this report SE can successfully beat JML even without SEE or Kylo, Kylo just makes this counter more reliable
thats why some people like to use jkr lead.
every team is beatable, but you have to have the right chars at relic lvl.
I said that you will have a hard time if kylo is your only team and top arena is full of jml.
@mikk207 Look at this report SE can successfully beat JML even without SEE or Kylo, Kylo just makes this counter more reliable
thats why some people like to use jkr lead.
every team is beatable, but you have to have the right chars at relic lvl.
I said that you will have a hard time if kylo is your only team and top arena is full of jml.
Use Kylo +SE against JML is like use GAS +Fives against Kylo -- you have specific strategy and follow it, while SEE vs Kylo is incomparably more difficult and the only hope for RNG,
@mikk207 Look at this report SE can successfully beat JML even without SEE or Kylo, Kylo just makes this counter more reliable
thats why some people like to use jkr lead.
every team is beatable, but you have to have the right chars at relic lvl.
I said that you will have a hard time if kylo is your only team and top arena is full of jml.
Use Kylo +SE against JML is like use GAS +Fives against Kylo -- you have specific strategy and just it, while SEE vs Kylo is incomparably more difficult and the only hope for RNG,
and if you don't have se ready you will have a harder time.
I remember people saying here that they can beat kylo with see pretty reliable, not 100% but almost
@mikk207 Look at this report SE can successfully beat JML even without SEE or Kylo, Kylo just makes this counter more reliable
thats why some people like to use jkr lead.
every team is beatable, but you have to have the right chars at relic lvl.
I said that you will have a hard time if kylo is your only team and top arena is full of jml.
Use Kylo +SE against JML is like use GAS +Fives against Kylo -- you have specific strategy and just it, while SEE vs Kylo is incomparably more difficult and the only hope for RNG,
and if you don't have se ready you will have a harder time.
I remember people saying here that they can beat kylo with see pretty reliable, not 100% but almost
Many people cannot do that's one of the points for this thread, while other Gls can counter reliably other, SEE just fails, I'm talking about countering double-tank Kylo
@mikk207 Otherwise we would not have so many complaints like "I should climb over the wall of SLKR with SEE every day and smth like that" actually i don't see any thread related Kylo that he cannot climb over the wall of JML
the data shows the defense viability of their lead.
that's a fact.
Im not arguing that it doesnt? I was basing my argument off the arena lead share (25% of JML in lead), which I assumed would carry over to GAC, which was incorrect it seems as its roughly 75% JML leads.
Sample sizes are way too small to say JML is worse than SEE on defense yet though imo.
the data shows the defense viability of their lead.
that's a fact.
Im not arguing that it doesnt? I was basing my argument off the arena lead share (25% of JML in lead), which I assumed would carry over to GAC, which was incorrect it seems as its roughly 75% JML leads.
Sample sizes are way too small to say JML is worse than SEE on defense yet though imo.
let's see what the next gac data shows.
both jml and see were fairly new this round.
for this gac jml wasn't very effective on defense
the data shows the defense viability of their lead.
that's a fact.
Im not arguing that it doesnt? I was basing my argument off the arena lead share (25% of JML in lead), which I assumed would carry over to GAC, which was incorrect it seems as its roughly 75% JML leads.
Sample sizes are way too small to say JML is worse than SEE on defense yet though imo.
let's see what the next gac data shows.
both jml and see were fairly new this round.
for this gac jml wasn't very effective on defense
Agree regarding JML, actually I made conclusion regarding both Gls after new Raid, they are much weaker than their predecessor.
It's rather obvious what's going on with jml's in gac, I doubt more stats will change this outlook. The arena versions of jml team (jkr or jml lead) is used rarely given how meta expensive it is. Semi combos with jkl or yoda are dismissed much easier. This makes jml a better choice for offense and also leaves steering room depending on opponent's defense.
It's rather obvious what's going on with jml's in gac, I doubt more stats will change this outlook. The arena versions of jml team (jkr or jml lead) is used rarely given how meta expensive it is. Semi combos with jkl or yoda are dismissed much easier. This makes jml a better choice for offense and also leaves steering room depending on opponent's defense.
I don’t think he was saying any claims lack evidence. Rather when we make claims we should include evidence and provide as much detail as possible. A lot of us are doing this which is fantastic. The more information attached to each video/picture/the top the better.
A great example is the most common complaint about the link mechanic. It doesn’t work when there’s only 1 toon. Showing every single GL including SEE solo SEE with a full team in multiple line ups demonstrates a weaknesses in the mechanic that can be abused.
Furthermore it highlights his issue later in battle when it comes down 1v1. He cant link and therefore he cant reduce the cool down for unlimited power.
Ah, ok. Just a note: Unlimited Gimmick cooldown isn't reduced through Linked, but rather through using the basic against Deceived targets (although it's worth mentioning that there seems to be immense difficulty keeping Deceived up, especially vs DS, at that point--yet another condition to SEE functioning decently).
Ah, ok. Just a note: Unlimited Gimmick cooldown isn't reduced through Linked, but rather through using the basic against Deceived targets (although it's worth mentioning that there seems to be immense difficulty keeping Deceived up, especially vs DS, at that point--yet another condition to SEE functioning decently).
again why having his unique apply to ANY target, ls or not would go along way.
in conjunction his shock working on any target would sort of help his damage.
Besides that... any sith under his lead does no damage since he doesn't give ANY damage boosting stats. They dont even gain survival since... yet again his lead does nothing.
The issue lies with SEE mastery being well.. garbage. accuracy and crit chance does nothing for him.
Add on his lead, or one of his uniques, that says "SEE gains Crit damage based on half of his crit chance or accuracy."
heck.. or keep Sith as the RAW offense faction and just do one thing... give them a scaling offense multiplier. Flat offense does nothing compared to a percentage. Take Sideous passive.. do something similar to that for SEE lead.
"Sith allies gain 2-5% potency everytime they deal damage to a Deceived enemy. Sith allies gain %offense equal to their potency."
Would also fix maul, sid, Savage and let them be usable with see as their stacking passive would super charge their current mediocre damage.
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
60% potency isn't anything.
40 speed is nice. the ONLY useful part of his lead.
50% mastery does nothing.
I did tests with him as lead then rg as lead to see the difference in damage.
turn 1 (no mastery stacking) SEE did around 30k damage with his basic with him as lead.
RG L... see did about 26k.
for giggles I ran vader lead. see did 36k damage.
that basic 30% offense from vader did FAR FAR FAR more then a pathetic 50% mastery.
Which claims lack evidence? Which weaknesses in SEE's mechanics lack support?
please go back in the thread and see any time I asked for videos, mods, and other supporting evidence. Not sure who said anything about a claim lacking evidence or support to the claims, they might not be as thorough, as I explained previously.
I was simply replying to someone who was making a claim that didn't seem to be based on whats happening in this case.
CG could have done so many cool and unique things with SEE to qualify his GL status.
Going off that stacking potency idea from my last post you can have something unique thats never been done before such as
"When a sith ally reaches 200% total potency all their debuffs can not be resisted. When a sith ally reaches 300% potency their debuffs can't be dispelled."
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
This is unfortunately another display of not being familiar with the evidence presented in this thread, or SEE's mechanics.
In short, the idea that parts of SEE's kit like this are strong rely on overestimations of the gimmicks in SEE's kit rather than the overall weakness.
The stats provided through mastery alone (not total relic stats) is a modest flat amount, and the gains SEE provides are not that great. SLKR, in contrast, gets CD from mastery gains, and gets great increases in mastery. Sidious lead provides quite a bit more offense
Potency is cute, but one of the key issues with both DR and Vader counters to SLKR (displaying the limitations of Sith in general) is that even with a focus on potency that other squads don't need as much, Sith always run up against a base 15% resist chance. The Vader counters people show often rely on things like Vader's AB (15% chance he doesn't even try to apply it, then 15% chance it doesn't land) or DR's shock, or BSF fear or stagger. When you need multiple debuffs to land or else the counter falls apart and everyone gets slaughtered, the reliability of the counter goes down a lot. The idea that it's "almost 100%" is laughable. SEE doesn't do enough to help these, especially compared, for example, to what JML does for the preexisting Jedi counter squad. The exception to this is DR fear, but it's limited against permataunts like SLKR has and CG keeps making fear-immune toons (padme, jkl, GLs).
The +10 speed for Sith compared to SLKR is nice, although it's worth mentioning that Sith like BSF under SLKR will go first regardless of worse modding. Sith still get more from the FO GL than from the Sith GL
@Davie96 I maybe be wrong but potency, speed and def restore look like more Jedi-related kit, than valid kit for siths, if you played with Sith, for sure you are familiar how siths work.
Well, Sith used to be the debuff guys. Ironically, the Jedi titans are now the masters of debuffs, while the Sith are now the masters of dying on defense, and on offense praying for RNG to be able to set up fracture (P.S. thrawn is much stronger under SLKR than under SEE)
Replies
- I am not making a case for anything related to SEE, nor did this post advocate for changes to him. Please be civil.
- I acknowledged the fact that the data I pulled was from arena, not from GAC, and I explained how I think it appropriately correlates to the fact that JML is very often used outside of the lead slot. GAC only pulls data for JML in the lead slot. Thus I am simply pointing out that your data is by no means perfect, and should not be used for a comparison of the defensive viablity of two characters because it is going to be missing a substantial portion of the data for JML.
the data shows the defense viability of their lead.
that's a fact.
I looked up the defense battles from bastila and jkr with jml. they are not not very often used, so maybe not representative but they didn't hold much better.
why people tend to use jml for offense could have different reasons, maybe some think he is good on offense, some may think he is bad on defense, but this is speculation only
thats why some people like to use jkr lead.
every team is beatable, but you have to have the right chars at relic lvl.
I said that you will have a hard time if kylo is your only team and top arena is full of jml.
Use Kylo +SE against JML is like use GAS +Fives against Kylo -- you have specific strategy and follow it, while SEE vs Kylo is incomparably more difficult and the only hope for RNG,
and if you don't have se ready you will have a harder time.
I remember people saying here that they can beat kylo with see pretty reliable, not 100% but almost
Many people cannot do that's one of the points for this thread, while other Gls can counter reliably other, SEE just fails, I'm talking about countering double-tank Kylo
Im not arguing that it doesnt? I was basing my argument off the arena lead share (25% of JML in lead), which I assumed would carry over to GAC, which was incorrect it seems as its roughly 75% JML leads.
Sample sizes are way too small to say JML is worse than SEE on defense yet though imo.
let's see what the next gac data shows.
both jml and see were fairly new this round.
for this gac jml wasn't very effective on defense
Agree regarding JML, actually I made conclusion regarding both Gls after new Raid, they are much weaker than their predecessor.
Thats my hypothesis as well.
No one is asking anyone to test this for them, what is being asked for is supporting evidence of claims being made.
A great example is the most common complaint about the link mechanic. It doesn’t work when there’s only 1 toon. Showing every single GL including SEE solo SEE with a full team in multiple line ups demonstrates a weaknesses in the mechanic that can be abused.
Furthermore it highlights his issue later in battle when it comes down 1v1. He cant link and therefore he cant reduce the cool down for unlimited power.
again why having his unique apply to ANY target, ls or not would go along way.
in conjunction his shock working on any target would sort of help his damage.
Besides that... any sith under his lead does no damage since he doesn't give ANY damage boosting stats. They dont even gain survival since... yet again his lead does nothing.
The issue lies with SEE mastery being well.. garbage. accuracy and crit chance does nothing for him.
Add on his lead, or one of his uniques, that says "SEE gains Crit damage based on half of his crit chance or accuracy."
heck.. or keep Sith as the RAW offense faction and just do one thing... give them a scaling offense multiplier. Flat offense does nothing compared to a percentage. Take Sideous passive.. do something similar to that for SEE lead.
"Sith allies gain 2-5% potency everytime they deal damage to a Deceived enemy. Sith allies gain %offense equal to their potency."
Would also fix maul, sid, Savage and let them be usable with see as their stacking passive would super charge their current mediocre damage.
60% potency isn't anything.
40 speed is nice. the ONLY useful part of his lead.
50% mastery does nothing.
I did tests with him as lead then rg as lead to see the difference in damage.
turn 1 (no mastery stacking) SEE did around 30k damage with his basic with him as lead.
RG L... see did about 26k.
for giggles I ran vader lead. see did 36k damage.
that basic 30% offense from vader did FAR FAR FAR more then a pathetic 50% mastery.
So yes. his lead is trash.
please go back in the thread and see any time I asked for videos, mods, and other supporting evidence. Not sure who said anything about a claim lacking evidence or support to the claims, they might not be as thorough, as I explained previously.
I was simply replying to someone who was making a claim that didn't seem to be based on whats happening in this case.
Going off that stacking potency idea from my last post you can have something unique thats never been done before such as
"When a sith ally reaches 200% total potency all their debuffs can not be resisted. When a sith ally reaches 300% potency their debuffs can't be dispelled."
As an idea. total % can change.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
In short, the idea that parts of SEE's kit like this are strong rely on overestimations of the gimmicks in SEE's kit rather than the overall weakness.