His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
This is unfortunately another display of not being familiar with the evidence presented in this thread, or SEE's mechanics.
In short, the idea that parts of SEE's kit like this are strong rely on overestimations of the gimmicks in SEE's kit rather than the overall weakness.
The stats provided through mastery alone (not total relic stats) is a modest flat amount, and the gains SEE provides are not that great. SLKR, in contrast, gets CD from mastery gains, and gets great increases in mastery. Sidious lead provides quite a bit more offense
Potency is cute, but one of the key issues with both DR and Vader counters to SLKR (displaying the limitations of Sith in general) is that even with a focus on potency that other squads don't need as much, Sith always run up against a base 15% resist chance. The Vader counters people show often rely on things like Vader's AB (15% chance he doesn't even try to apply it, then 15% chance it doesn't land) or DR's shock, or BSF fear or stagger. When you need multiple debuffs to land or else the counter falls apart and everyone gets slaughtered, the reliability of the counter goes down a lot. The idea that it's "almost 100%" is laughable. SEE doesn't do enough to help these, especially compared, for example, to what JML does for the preexisting Jedi counter squad. The exception to this is DR fear, but it's limited against permataunts like SLKR has and CG keeps making fear-immune toons (padme, jkl, GLs).
The +10 speed for Sith compared to SLKR is nice, although it's worth mentioning that Sith like BSF under SLKR will go first regardless of worse modding. Sith still get more from the FO GL than from the Sith GL
I'll add that you can reach the point of only having the 15% resist chance pretty easily through proper modding. And once you're at that point see adding more potency does little.
Also, your example with vader is off. I think there's the 15% chance he won't try to apply it but it is irresistible so you have a flat 85% chance. I apply it through tenacity up all the time. That also makes see's lead pretty much useless for that particular mechanic since it doesn't rely of potency at all.
As for other debuffs, you get plenty of potency from most other Sith leads. So adding potency isn't anything special.
Hence why I said earlier that SEE is one of the worst out there. It's 40 speed then useless other stats.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Help needed With an ultimate See
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
What do you guys use?
Use Vader, wat, thrawn, Darth revan, and dark Bastilla for Rey. It works better than see. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear. But it works even with a 4 star wat as long as you put the zeta on him.
I use Thrawn, vader, wat, brood alpha (but you can sub another pretaunt) and raid han for SLKR teams. It's not as reliable as vader against Rey but it does work if the mods are right.
Trying to use see to beat SLKR just won't happen. So it's best to use the counters to climb and skip teams that the counters are less reliable against when possible.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Personally, I don’t think they would update multiple toons. It’s easier to update one or introduce a brand new one. I do like you’re “Under Sith” phrasing and I 100% agree with the reasoning.
BTW on your previous post you mentioned how easy it is to overcome the thresholds and reach the point of 15% resist chance. I’ve noticed that because of the potency boost from SEE I barley have to mod for any potency and I’ve been able to do things like increase offense and tenacity where appropriate.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Personally, I don’t think they would update multiple toons. It’s easier to update one or introduce a brand new one. I do like you’re “Under Sith” phrasing and I 100% agree with the reasoning.
BTW on your previous post you mentioned how easy it is to overcome the thresholds and reach the point of 15% resist chance. I’ve noticed that because of the potency boost from SEE I barley have to mod for any potency and I’ve been able to do things like increase offense and tenacity where appropriate.
My point is that if you want to specifically make toons like maul and sideous better, you pretty much have to put it in their kits or make it specific to them. A blanket offense to sith on see's lead would make sideous and maul better but would also make Darth revan and all the other good sith better as well.
And that may be needed to an extent. But personally, I were would rather see sideous and maul get huge boosts to be useful with see (and elsewhere) rather than a smaller boost to the whole faction under see.
Because to me, at least, it is clear that sideous and maul need more of a boost than most of the other sith.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Personally, I don’t think they would update multiple toons. It’s easier to update one or introduce a brand new one. I do like you’re “Under Sith” phrasing and I 100% agree with the reasoning.
BTW on your previous post you mentioned how easy it is to overcome the thresholds and reach the point of 15% resist chance. I’ve noticed that because of the potency boost from SEE I barley have to mod for any potency and I’ve been able to do things like increase offense and tenacity where appropriate.
My point is that if you want to specifically make toons like maul and sideous better, you pretty much have to put it in their kits or make it specific to them. A blanket offense to sith on see's lead would make sideous and maul better but would also make Darth revan and all the other good sith better as well.
And that may be needed to an extent. But personally, I were would rather see sideous and maul get huge boosts to be useful with see (and elsewhere) rather than a smaller boost to the whole faction under see.
Because to me, at least, it is clear that sideous and maul need more of a boost than most of the other sith.
No need to clarify I understood what you were saying.👍 I don’t disagree with it. It’s part of the reason I said, I’m leaning more towards a new toon instead of an update to SEE.
Some of the problems you listed would still apply. Obviously, I’d like there to be synergy. Honestly, like I told Shiyru I’m not really thinking of the left over Sith. I just don’t think they’re needed and I don’t think they’ll get any updates. Not that I’m against it after investing in them. They’re just not on my radar.
My ideal situation would be a support/tank character with a ton of protection and the tank tag.
That allows you to pick 2 support and/or attackers, Malak or SET, and the new toon.
Help needed With an ultimate See
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
What do you guys use?
I use SE with Traya. Having Revan is the only way you will feasibly get that bonus offense from Bastillas Unique, and without it I find beating Rey significantly harder (against JML it doesnt really matter what you use). Even if fear slows dows SEEs ult charge I consider it worth since the ult wont matter if it doesnt deal enough dmg. SET is the only one of the sith tanks that actually works well with SEE, so I pick him over Malak and Sion despite having both at R7. Traya is mostly there to tank JKRs mark but Isloate is still usefull.
I'm actually curious about this advice. I'm not saying it's wrong. Rather, it indicates that throwing up some shocks through BSF's unique will provide SEE with more offense than he would otherwise gain through the whopping 10% mastery gain from linked enemy abilities.
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
This is unfortunately another display of not being familiar with the evidence presented in this thread, or SEE's mechanics.
In short, the idea that parts of SEE's kit like this are strong rely on overestimations of the gimmicks in SEE's kit rather than the overall weakness.
The stats provided through mastery alone (not total relic stats) is a modest flat amount, and the gains SEE provides are not that great. SLKR, in contrast, gets CD from mastery gains, and gets great increases in mastery. Sidious lead provides quite a bit more offense
Potency is cute, but one of the key issues with both DR and Vader counters to SLKR (displaying the limitations of Sith in general) is that even with a focus on potency that other squads don't need as much, Sith always run up against a base 15% resist chance. The Vader counters people show often rely on things like Vader's AB (15% chance he doesn't even try to apply it, then 15% chance it doesn't land) or DR's shock, or BSF fear or stagger. When you need multiple debuffs to land or else the counter falls apart and everyone gets slaughtered, the reliability of the counter goes down a lot. The idea that it's "almost 100%" is laughable. SEE doesn't do enough to help these, especially compared, for example, to what JML does for the preexisting Jedi counter squad. The exception to this is DR fear, but it's limited against permataunts like SLKR has and CG keeps making fear-immune toons (padme, jkl, GLs).
The +10 speed for Sith compared to SLKR is nice, although it's worth mentioning that Sith like BSF under SLKR will go first regardless of worse modding. Sith still get more from the FO GL than from the Sith GL
I'll add that you can reach the point of only having the 15% resist chance pretty easily through proper modding. And once you're at that point see adding more potency does little.
Also, your example with vader is off. I think there's the 15% chance he won't try to apply it but it is irresistible so you have a flat 85% chance. I apply it through tenacity up all the time. That also makes see's lead pretty much useless for that particular mechanic since it doesn't rely of potency at all.
As for other debuffs, you get plenty of potency from most other Sith leads. So adding potency isn't anything special.
So, not disagreeing here, but a couple things for others who might not know the details:
1) SEE adding more potency doesn't do anything about the 15% base resist chance, which can't be negated as long as a debuff can be resisted (for example, SLKR's deathstab). You're right the potency isn't that special compared to other Sith leads.
2) AB is resistible. The exception is Jedi/Rebel targets.
The end result is that to get decent arena performance out of SEE on offense (forget about defense unless you're in a unicorn arena with loads of jedi in the top 50), a player has to relic:
SEE's requirements (some pretty good, some very bad)
SEE
Triumvirate
GAS/5s/Han/Chewy
I don't wanna hear about SEE being "cheap" when all this is just to carry a GL to an ultimate where his main attack is his basic, and his basic does such ridiculously low damage (not just for a GL attacker, but even for a plain legendary).
I can probably deal without beating Kylo and there seems to be a decent amount of JMLs appearing to keep them low.
I don't have Sith Empire trooper geared or starred. Happy to do so if he makes a significant difference.
Out of interest why is he considered much more useless than other sith tanks such as sion and malak. (I understand malak suffers from lack of protection healing and mastery increases are wasted but he still seems pretty solid)
Whereas Sion seems to slot in nicely, granted he can't revive but other than that I've found he is a natural fit particularly with traya and nihilus.
Would be interested to see why Sith Trooper is considered more effective than sion.
SET can gain Defense Up and taunt automatically. Combine his strengths with how poorly SEE supports Sion and Malak, and that basically leaves SET.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Personally, I don’t think they would update multiple toons. It’s easier to update one or introduce a brand new one. I do like you’re “Under Sith” phrasing and I 100% agree with the reasoning.
BTW on your previous post you mentioned how easy it is to overcome the thresholds and reach the point of 15% resist chance. I’ve noticed that because of the potency boost from SEE I barley have to mod for any potency and I’ve been able to do things like increase offense and tenacity where appropriate.
My point is that if you want to specifically make toons like maul and sideous better, you pretty much have to put it in their kits or make it specific to them. A blanket offense to sith on see's lead would make sideous and maul better but would also make Darth revan and all the other good sith better as well.
And that may be needed to an extent. But personally, I were would rather see sideous and maul get huge boosts to be useful with see (and elsewhere) rather than a smaller boost to the whole faction under see.
Because to me, at least, it is clear that sideous and maul need more of a boost than most of the other sith.
No need to clarify I understood what you were saying.👍 I don’t disagree with it. It’s part of the reason I said, I’m leaning more towards a new toon instead of an update to SEE.
Some of the problems you listed would still apply. Obviously, I’d like there to be synergy. Honestly, like I told Shiyru I’m not really thinking of the left over Sith. I just don’t think they’re needed and I don’t think they’ll get any updates. Not that I’m against it after investing in them. They’re just not on my radar.
My ideal situation would be a support/tank character with a ton of protection and the tank tag.
That allows you to pick 2 support and/or attackers, Malak or SET, and the new toon.
I would prefer that sideous and maul especially get some kind of rework along the way. I did have to relic them anyway so may as well get some use out of them.
A new character is well and good. But I don't think you should have to relic an additional 5 toons (or more) for a legendary or journey character or whale on a new marque to make the GL you already farmed up to par with the others.
Especially not when we have plenty of other sith laying around not being terribly useful.
So, not disagreeing here, but a couple things for others who might not know the details:
1) SEE adding more potency doesn't do anything about the 15% base resist chance, which can't be negated as long as a debuff can be resisted (for example, SLKR's deathstab). You're right the potency isn't that special compared to other Sith leads.
2) AB is resistible. The exception is Jedi/Rebel targets.
Yeah I do use vader against jedi a lot on both accounts so I'm used to his ab being irresistible.
Luckily merciless usually let's you get a second shot at a target if you really need one to land on a certain target.
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
It's tough information to get... Because the main issue is SEE holding on defense, and the only way most of us can provide any info on that is swgoh.gg when people fight our SEE in GAC. ... However there is one other person finally using SEE in my arena shard, ill see if i can drop rank enough to be able to attack him and try some teams out vs. his SEE
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
It's tough information to get... Because the main issue is SEE holding on defense, and the only way most of us can provide any info on that is swgoh.gg when people fight our SEE in GAC. ... However there is one other person finally using SEE in my arena shard, ill see if i can drop rank enough to be able to attack him and try some teams out vs. his SEE
sorry, let me clarify, I dont need the general stats being shown on .gg. Those I have access to and they show a limited number of IT teams having success, so this information can be seen already. if .gg on "your" personal GAC history, shows non GL counter teams being used, please post that too.
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
Is there a way to share videos with the team without YouTube?
Honestly, I think this is one of the better updates. We know what they need to see and we know the parameters.
A Few Teams to Consider:
Geo’s
Night Sisters
Imperial Troopers
Shak Ti Clones
CLS
I’ve noticed most F2P counters take advantage of TM trains or AI/Taunt limitations. I think Malak limits the TM teams, but I hope thats not used a a crutch. A GL should be able to survive the first turn without a toon like Malak.
@Kyno its nice to get an update, but at this point are they stating SEE is on par or not?
If SEE is on par, please have the dev team provide a SEE team that is doing between 15%(SLKR) and 22% (Rey) of the new Rancor raid. Please provide a SEE team doing between 70M(Rey) and 150M(SLKR) on HSTR. Please provide a SEE team that full completes HAAT.
Have the team provide a provide examples of SEE plus Wat beating properly modded top arena squads with SLKR, Rey and JML.
If SEE is not on par, what specifically do they feel is lacking and in that regards what more is needed. It sounds like enough evidence is there for the IT teams against SEE. Do you need to see Vader counter teams? DR teams? Geos? what teams are you short on so we are not grabbing random pieces of information? Do you need more details on SLKR solo of full SEE team, do you need more information on Rey/Wat vs full SEE team. Do you need more details on SEE/Wat vs full SEE team?
ok, so I have a non update, update. They have looked at some of the data and the one thing they are light on, due to low sample size, is the counter teams.
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
Is there a way to share videos with the team without YouTube?
not really. unless someone here can provide a different source that will host a video, but that would probably have the same/similar issues you want to avoid by using youtube.
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
Best team means SEE + sith trio + a random fifth like Malak, Vader, Wat, SET or Gideon ?
Replies
Hence why I said earlier that SEE is one of the worst out there. It's 40 speed then useless other stats.
I think if they want maul or sideous to be used the text would need to go into their kits rather than see. For example if it was added to their unique that when they are under a sith leader, they gain offense equal to their potency (or double their potency), it would buff those toons but not other ones.
Combine that with tweaks to see's damage and they would be viable with him but also in other sith teams.
And most importantly, the "when under a sith lead" clause doesn't make them better with slkr.
Use Vader, wat, thrawn, Darth revan, and dark Bastilla for Rey. It works better than see. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear. But it works even with a 4 star wat as long as you put the zeta on him.
I use Thrawn, vader, wat, brood alpha (but you can sub another pretaunt) and raid han for SLKR teams. It's not as reliable as vader against Rey but it does work if the mods are right.
Trying to use see to beat SLKR just won't happen. So it's best to use the counters to climb and skip teams that the counters are less reliable against when possible.
Personally, I don’t think they would update multiple toons. It’s easier to update one or introduce a brand new one. I do like you’re “Under Sith” phrasing and I 100% agree with the reasoning.
BTW on your previous post you mentioned how easy it is to overcome the thresholds and reach the point of 15% resist chance. I’ve noticed that because of the potency boost from SEE I barley have to mod for any potency and I’ve been able to do things like increase offense and tenacity where appropriate.
My point is that if you want to specifically make toons like maul and sideous better, you pretty much have to put it in their kits or make it specific to them. A blanket offense to sith on see's lead would make sideous and maul better but would also make Darth revan and all the other good sith better as well.
And that may be needed to an extent. But personally, I were would rather see sideous and maul get huge boosts to be useful with see (and elsewhere) rather than a smaller boost to the whole faction under see.
Because to me, at least, it is clear that sideous and maul need more of a boost than most of the other sith.
No need to clarify I understood what you were saying.👍 I don’t disagree with it. It’s part of the reason I said, I’m leaning more towards a new toon instead of an update to SEE.
Some of the problems you listed would still apply. Obviously, I’d like there to be synergy. Honestly, like I told Shiyru I’m not really thinking of the left over Sith. I just don’t think they’re needed and I don’t think they’ll get any updates. Not that I’m against it after investing in them. They’re just not on my radar.
My ideal situation would be a support/tank character with a ton of protection and the tank tag.
That allows you to pick 2 support and/or attackers, Malak or SET, and the new toon.
And the tank thing makes me cry on the inside.
So, not disagreeing here, but a couple things for others who might not know the details:
1) SEE adding more potency doesn't do anything about the 15% base resist chance, which can't be negated as long as a debuff can be resisted (for example, SLKR's deathstab). You're right the potency isn't that special compared to other Sith leads.
2) AB is resistible. The exception is Jedi/Rebel targets.
The end result is that to get decent arena performance out of SEE on offense (forget about defense unless you're in a unicorn arena with loads of jedi in the top 50), a player has to relic:
I don't wanna hear about SEE being "cheap" when all this is just to carry a GL to an ultimate where his main attack is his basic, and his basic does such ridiculously low damage (not just for a GL attacker, but even for a plain legendary).
SET can gain Defense Up and taunt automatically. Combine his strengths with how poorly SEE supports Sion and Malak, and that basically leaves SET.
I would prefer that sideous and maul especially get some kind of rework along the way. I did have to relic them anyway so may as well get some use out of them.
A new character is well and good. But I don't think you should have to relic an additional 5 toons (or more) for a legendary or journey character or whale on a new marque to make the GL you already farmed up to par with the others.
Especially not when we have plenty of other sith laying around not being terribly useful.
Yeah I do use vader against jedi a lot on both accounts so I'm used to his ab being irresistible.
Luckily merciless usually let's you get a second shot at a target if you really need one to land on a certain target.
But yeah I agree on your points about see.
Nothing on my end, but I have been busy today. I will check.
Thanks. Just want to stay updated.
Thanks. You are doing the lords work.
People in my arena have been using this squad for weeks. It’s not new.
If JML can reliably beat SEE, who is his hard counter, should SEE not also reliably beat SLKR, who is his hard counter?
If See could do the same against Kylo, many people in this thread would have been really happy
you can rag on me later about how "you" provided this already, so right now, helpful posts are what will make a difference.
I dont need anything reposted thats already in this thread I will be going back through my old lists I made and anything already here, but most of the older ones have either holes in information or are not a fully upgraded SEE (with ultimate).
so key point -
- if possible mod setup on SEE and his team, not necessary to have the counter teams setup, but it would be nice
- fully upgraded SEE with ultimate being beat by non GL teams (I think all the GL solo videos are maxed out SEE, but these could help also)
- I dont need .gg pics and statistics of teams beating them, that data is already available
- Please look at the SEE offensive teams used in this thread that seem to be "the best team", those are what we should be showing being beat. beating a specific "SEE counter team" is not that same as beating a team that is meant to hold.
if you feel this all in this thread already, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
if you think you have helped enough, I dont need to hear that. I am just trying to help.
just trying to help the situation. I appreciate your help.
It's tough information to get... Because the main issue is SEE holding on defense, and the only way most of us can provide any info on that is swgoh.gg when people fight our SEE in GAC. ... However there is one other person finally using SEE in my arena shard, ill see if i can drop rank enough to be able to attack him and try some teams out vs. his SEE
sorry, let me clarify, I dont need the general stats being shown on .gg. Those I have access to and they show a limited number of IT teams having success, so this information can be seen already. if .gg on "your" personal GAC history, shows non GL counter teams being used, please post that too.
Thanks Kyno.
Is there a way to share videos with the team without YouTube?
A Few Teams to Consider:
Geo’s
Night Sisters
Imperial Troopers
Shak Ti Clones
CLS
I’ve noticed most F2P counters take advantage of TM trains or AI/Taunt limitations. I think Malak limits the TM teams, but I hope thats not used a a crutch. A GL should be able to survive the first turn without a toon like Malak.
If SEE is on par, please have the dev team provide a SEE team that is doing between 15%(SLKR) and 22% (Rey) of the new Rancor raid. Please provide a SEE team doing between 70M(Rey) and 150M(SLKR) on HSTR. Please provide a SEE team that full completes HAAT.
Have the team provide a provide examples of SEE plus Wat beating properly modded top arena squads with SLKR, Rey and JML.
If SEE is not on par, what specifically do they feel is lacking and in that regards what more is needed. It sounds like enough evidence is there for the IT teams against SEE. Do you need to see Vader counter teams? DR teams? Geos? what teams are you short on so we are not grabbing random pieces of information? Do you need more details on SLKR solo of full SEE team, do you need more information on Rey/Wat vs full SEE team. Do you need more details on SEE/Wat vs full SEE team?
not really. unless someone here can provide a different source that will host a video, but that would probably have the same/similar issues you want to avoid by using youtube.
Best team means SEE + sith trio + a random fifth like Malak, Vader, Wat, SET or Gideon ?