I don’t get this fixation on SEE being worse vs his GL counter compared to the other GLs. Didn’t CG say they wanted a rock-paper-scissors squad arena scenario? The unstated implication is that you need two GLs for squad arena, not just one.
If certain GLs have an easier time with their GL counter, then as long as that’s within a fair margin of error, it should be acceptable/WAI. I certainly don’t bother jamming JML into SEE, when I have a better option in Rey. You should be able to climb to 1 as long as you have two GLs, and nothing so far has indicated that is not the case.
Now, I do feel bad for players who unlocked SEE as their first and only GL, and his Challenge Rancor performance is certainly deplorable. But it’s not the end of the world. Frankly, every GL sucks compared to SLK. Rey owners survived being dumpstered by SLK; SEE owners will too. Just get another GL (read: SLK because he’s CG’s golden child for some reason...), and move on.
If See was intended for offense, that means such specs should have been applied like Crit Damage, Crit Chance, Offense, Armor Penetration, Accuracy for his Leadership. If See should survive due to his strange kit, he should definitely provide at least smth like that to support his team
I don’t get this fixation on SEE being worse vs his GL counter compared to the other GLs. Didn’t CG say they wanted a rock-paper-scissors squad arena scenario? The unstated implication is that you need two GLs for squad arena, not just one.
If certain GLs have an easier time with their GL counter, then as long as that’s within a fair margin of error, it should be acceptable/WAI. I certainly don’t bother jamming JML into SEE, when I have a better option in Rey. You should be able to climb to 1 as long as you have two GLs, and nothing so far has indicated that is not the case.
Now, I do feel bad for players who unlocked SEE as their first and only GL, and his Challenge Rancor performance is certainly deplorable. But it’s not the end of the world. Frankly, every GL sucks compared to SLK. Rey owners survived being dumpstered by SLK; SEE owners will too. Just get another GL (read: SLK because he’s CG’s golden child for some reason...), and move on.
yes, rock-paper-scissors will be good after REY and SLKR will have the same class-restrictions as JML and SEE
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
I don’t get this fixation on SEE being worse vs his GL counter
So... this isn't about SLKR as a counter to SEE, but rather SLKR as another fairly straightforward DS attacker GL, who is supposed to be of similar power to SEE. It's the most direct comparison available. And the fact that SLKR is a better leader of Sith allies than SEE isn't about counters either, but about the power difference being so huge that SLKR is even better at SEE's specialties than SEE is.
As far as Rey people: yeah, Rey people are salty about SLKR buff, and about Rey's kit looking better. But Rey with Resistance requirements would likely have no trouble battling SEE and his Sith requirements. And new LS toons (such as ones already released) will make Rey stronger. New DS toons will just make other DS GLs stronger in comparison to SEE, or, like Malak, make everybody stronger at the expense of Sith.
But point taken about SEE having such low value that it's better to get an old GL than a brand new one, and people should just get SLKR if they want a DS GL.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
Like, just look at JML owners rightfully frustrated that they struggle to use JML lead, that JML lead has obvious vulnerabilities, and that they don't get to really use the ultimate that's one of the main elements of the whole "GL" shtick.
Now imagine JML doing almost nothing, being forced into the leader slot when the Jedi titan counter squad is better on their own. Imagine JML being royal garbage against almost any meta opponent, and then not supporting his squad almost at all but still hoping that they die slowly enough that he can, alone, kill the enemy. Then he takes a turn and does nothing. Then he uses one messy AOE (which can removed essential status effects like Linked and Deceived, but doesn't really do incredible damage vs GLs). Then he has a basic that's really weak vs DS and not fairly mediocre vs LS--kind of absurd, considering all the sacrifices and weaknesses required to be overcome to get to this point.
People would riot. But because most people are happy with just SLKR, and JML, and Rey, they don't mind if the 4th GL they weren't gonna get anyway simply makes their favorite GLs better in comparison. That's fine! But it doesn't make CG's misrepresentations and refusal thus far to address them okay.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
I think my comment got accidentally deleted, so going to repost, sorry in advance if I double post.
I agree with you, think it would be best to get a DS legendary to bolster SEE. For some reason, DS has fewer Journey Guide toons than LS, it’s past time CG gave DS some more love in raw numbers.
JKL was transformative for Rey during the tail end of her shared meta with SLK. I hope SEE can get something comparable to JKL, give players a carrot to chase SEE.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
vader and palp already have their homes. Palp can lead empire and vader can be with piet and wat to kill most GLs or teams.
SE has DR, bast, malak, marauder, hk
Trio has themselves (generally left over other sith such as SET and sid.)
My potency to offense proposal would fix maul. he gains potency when he deals damage. would help fix his decent, yet semi low, base damage. sid would actually be a threat for once in his existence. and then savage would just be slightly a bigger beast. to bad these 3 toons have crap base health and protection compared to new toons.
I don’t get this fixation on SEE being worse vs his GL counter
So... this isn't about SLKR as a counter to SEE, but rather SLKR as another fairly straightforward DS attacker GL, who is supposed to be of similar power to SEE. It's the most direct comparison available. And the fact that SLKR is a better leader of Sith allies than SEE isn't about counters either, but about the power difference being so huge that SLKR is even better at SEE's specialties than SEE is.
As far as Rey people: yeah, Rey people are salty about SLKR buff, and about Rey's kit looking better. But Rey with Resistance requirements would likely have no trouble battling SEE and his Sith requirements. And new LS toons (such as ones already released) will make Rey stronger. New DS toons will just make other DS GLs stronger in comparison to SEE, or, like Malak, make everybody stronger at the expense of Sith.
But point taken about SEE having such low value that it's better to get an old GL than a brand new one, and people should just get SLKR if they want a DS GL.
The contrast is super stark with the DS GLs, for sure. My gripe with SLK is probably well known, so not going to rehash that one lol. It’s just so ridiculous how many advantages he has, not just in PVE but also squad comps, prereqs, and even has a usable fleet!
The LS GLs are more comparable, since one has an actual usable ult but her faction is garbo, while the other has ridiculously strong baseline abilities but effectively no ult, no leadership, and no taunt unless you use a DS crutch. They both need the same OP Jedi, so they’re worse than what should be the sum of two GL parts.
I have no clue what CG’s endgame balance is for GLs. I just know that you can’t succeed with only one GL, unless that GL is SLK. That’s a huge red flag in my eyes, but CG gonna CG...
So at every 100 pages, you get a dev ping. I bet it'll get resolved at 800. Go go go.
Personally, on this (not counting any pings here) topic, I have probably a half dozen direct pings for an update, and then the channel where I post all the videos and stuff that he is a part of. so a few more than 1 per 100 pages.
Kyno
Thank you I appreciate that. Question, do you have any insight on what types of videos are the most useful? I’m not asking for specifics but I imagine some are more helpful than others. For example if videos that don’t show the full battle are not considered reliable then we should only be posting full length videos.
the videos are used to help support sentiment. just saying he needs damage, or he is beat by X, is only part of the story. videos showing this, with mods and possible variations is much more helpful as it shows a more full picture. I got a little slammed asking for this as much a I did, but its really what is needed to help push the case.
for example: clips and short snips of someone doing massive damage and then the same showing SEE not, are much less helpful.
Kyno
Are you also sending them pictures, like the swgoh.gg data, or just videos?
I have sent any images, videos, and data we have access to, to support the sentiment expressed here. I also sent them many of the comments and suggestions.
@CG_Doja_Fett daily reminder - can we please get an official update on what the thinking is around SEE? Does CG like what they see, or are some changes being considered at all? Don't leave us hanging kind sir.
@CG_Doja_Fett It would be nice to hear something soon.
Following SEE’s logic, the next dark side GL will be an empire GL which will be only good against Rebel , rogue one , tanks, and get beaten by everything else
Following SEE’s logic, the next dark side GL will be an empire GL which will be only good against Rebel , rogue one , tanks, and get beaten by everything else
And the LS rebel GL will have every debuff in the game, every buff, prevent all allies from dieing all the time, and deal massive damage every time they attack with any move.
Following SEE’s logic, the next dark side GL will be an empire GL which will be only good against Rebel , rogue one , tanks, and get beaten by everything else
And the LS rebel GL will have every debuff in the game, every buff, prevent all allies from dieing all the time, and deal massive damage every time they attack with any move.
And still won’t be able to solo HSTR for some reason.😆
Following SEE’s logic, the next dark side GL will be an empire GL which will be only good against Rebel , rogue one , tanks, and get beaten by everything else
And the LS rebel GL will have every debuff in the game, every buff, prevent all allies from dieing all the time, and deal massive damage every time they attack with any move.
And still won’t be able to solo HSTR for some reason.😆
Your right. He won't solo HSTR but instead Challange Rancor
Really good video, impressive for EP and disaster for SEE.
But did you check the mods?
Did you have the correct squad?
Was it after midnight in August after a downpour of rain?
actually, we can ask @dgree about this match and mods, I just can say speed mods of rival not so bad due to turn order. On the whole it looks like a reliable counter against SEE
Help needed With an ultimate See
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
Help needed With an ultimate See
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
What do you guys use?
I use SE with Traya. Having Revan is the only way you will feasibly get that bonus offense from Bastillas Unique, and without it I find beating Rey significantly harder (against JML it doesnt really matter what you use). Even if fear slows dows SEEs ult charge I consider it worth since the ult wont matter if it doesnt deal enough dmg. SET is the only one of the sith tanks that actually works well with SEE, so I pick him over Malak and Sion despite having both at R7. Traya is mostly there to tank JKRs mark but Isloate is still usefull.
Help needed With an ultimate See
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
What do you guys use?
use wat. wep tech on see. tank on sion. health pack on DN.
Not 100% chance but it's the best you got.
if you look at the gac data, jml seems to be much worse than see foe gac.
seems like a lot of hyperbole in this thread
It’s going to much more difficult to get GAC data on GML. A lot of people are using him under Bastila or JKR.
2700 see counters vs 2200 jml counters are pretty good comparable
It’s not. Those encounters are based on leadership. As I mentioned a lot of teams are not using GML in the leadership role. It’s very easy to draw conclusions from inconclusive data. For example there’s a strong argument based on win to banner ratio that GML is one of the best offense toons in the GAC. However, I don’t know where those numbers are coming from. Maybe 90% of them are coming from him beating SLKR and he’s in fact terrible.
This isn’t just you btw. A lot of post in here show a chart or an arena rank with no context or understanding of how it’s collected and try to present it as evidence. Sometimes the data can provide macro picture or suggest a trend, but most of the time it’s misrepresented and not helpful.
this is the data we have and it shows us how jml lead or see lead holds.
speculating that different leads would hold better are just... speculations.
I personally don't think jml is particular strong against other strong teams unless he has strong jedis on his side
I can’t with this...
@Hermitthedruid Hey I wanted to ask you do you see SEE run more with an ST or SE squad or a combination of both in your arena? I’m noticing a trend and I’m curious if it carries over to a GL heavy arena shard.
Almost every SEE in my shard runs Vader and Traya, so I would say those two are mandatory. The last two Sith are a mishmash of DR, BSF, Malak, DN, SET, and one whale uses SiT as a spicy 5th.
For whatever reason, I don’t see Wat used at all with SEE, so I can’t really say how good he is.
@ZeTwitch To answer your question though, I see Triumvirate and SE in roughly equal numbers.
I run see, darth revan, traya, dark Bastilla, and malak.
So no vader and it works fine against any jml teams. Traya acts as a default tank for jkr and can sometimes survive with her bonus protection so she's almost a must.
I always link jml and jkl since they are immune to fear and will charge the ultimate. Then I focus jkr and pop savior. Then focus gas next until I get the ult and finish.
So pretty reliable against jml teams.
For Rey teams, vader is more reliable without see.
His lead gives +25% mastery, +30% potency, +20 speed (doubled for sith). There is also the bonus stacking mastery given to sith allies when enemies with deceive or linked use an ability. I would hardly call that "nothing!"
This is unfortunately another display of not being familiar with the evidence presented in this thread, or SEE's mechanics.
In short, the idea that parts of SEE's kit like this are strong rely on overestimations of the gimmicks in SEE's kit rather than the overall weakness.
The stats provided through mastery alone (not total relic stats) is a modest flat amount, and the gains SEE provides are not that great. SLKR, in contrast, gets CD from mastery gains, and gets great increases in mastery. Sidious lead provides quite a bit more offense
Potency is cute, but one of the key issues with both DR and Vader counters to SLKR (displaying the limitations of Sith in general) is that even with a focus on potency that other squads don't need as much, Sith always run up against a base 15% resist chance. The Vader counters people show often rely on things like Vader's AB (15% chance he doesn't even try to apply it, then 15% chance it doesn't land) or DR's shock, or BSF fear or stagger. When you need multiple debuffs to land or else the counter falls apart and everyone gets slaughtered, the reliability of the counter goes down a lot. The idea that it's "almost 100%" is laughable. SEE doesn't do enough to help these, especially compared, for example, to what JML does for the preexisting Jedi counter squad. The exception to this is DR fear, but it's limited against permataunts like SLKR has and CG keeps making fear-immune toons (padme, jkl, GLs).
The +10 speed for Sith compared to SLKR is nice, although it's worth mentioning that Sith like BSF under SLKR will go first regardless of worse modding. Sith still get more from the FO GL than from the Sith GL
I'll add that you can reach the point of only having the 15% resist chance pretty easily through proper modding. And once you're at that point see adding more potency does little.
Also, your example with vader is off. I think there's the 15% chance he won't try to apply it but it is irresistible so you have a flat 85% chance. I apply it through tenacity up all the time. That also makes see's lead pretty much useless for that particular mechanic since it doesn't rely of potency at all.
As for other debuffs, you get plenty of potency from most other Sith leads. So adding potency isn't anything special.
I can probably deal without beating Kylo and there seems to be a decent amount of JMLs appearing to keep them low.
I don't have Sith Empire trooper geared or starred. Happy to do so if he makes a significant difference.
Out of interest why is he considered much more useless than other sith tanks such as sion and malak. (I understand malak suffers from lack of protection healing and mastery increases are wasted but he still seems pretty solid)
Whereas Sion seems to slot in nicely, granted he can't revive but other than that I've found he is a natural fit particularly with traya and nihilus.
Would be interested to see why Sith Trooper is considered more effective than sion.
Replies
If certain GLs have an easier time with their GL counter, then as long as that’s within a fair margin of error, it should be acceptable/WAI. I certainly don’t bother jamming JML into SEE, when I have a better option in Rey. You should be able to climb to 1 as long as you have two GLs, and nothing so far has indicated that is not the case.
Now, I do feel bad for players who unlocked SEE as their first and only GL, and his Challenge Rancor performance is certainly deplorable. But it’s not the end of the world. Frankly, every GL sucks compared to SLK. Rey owners survived being dumpstered by SLK; SEE owners will too. Just get another GL (read: SLK because he’s CG’s golden child for some reason...), and move on.
yes, rock-paper-scissors will be good after REY and SLKR will have the same class-restrictions as JML and SEE
@Hermitthedruid
I like Vader a lot on paper. I just don’t trust that AI on defense. However against SLKR on defense I think you need it.
The rest is consistent with what I’m seeing. In some ways I would favor a new toon compared to a buff. The ST and SE squads are so tightly interwoven taking out too many toon breaks them. (Obviously we are talking GAC, TW, and TB). In arena is his viability seems to correlate with how many people have SLKR. Unfortunately a lot.
As taxing as investing in another toon for SEE would be. I think it could be a better choice especially if it’s more of a Piett to Troopers or Malak to DR (in terms of synergy) situation.
Why do you think I suggested my potency lead to offense buff idea. it would give maul and sid a home under SEE. can steal SET and then sassy as the 5th or savage
As far as Rey people: yeah, Rey people are salty about SLKR buff, and about Rey's kit looking better. But Rey with Resistance requirements would likely have no trouble battling SEE and his Sith requirements. And new LS toons (such as ones already released) will make Rey stronger. New DS toons will just make other DS GLs stronger in comparison to SEE, or, like Malak, make everybody stronger at the expense of Sith.
But point taken about SEE having such low value that it's better to get an old GL than a brand new one, and people should just get SLKR if they want a DS GL.
Honestly I was thinking of Vader and Palp when you said that. Maul and Sid would need a BIG boost so I didn’t really consider them. They definitely could though.
I think (with a few exceptions) they have done a fantastic job with kits this year. IMO The best ones have been the ones that revitalize a faction. This isn’t a perfect comparison but I’m going to roll with it. To me it’s like deciding if I want SLKR to make First Order Officer better or to have Hux.
Now imagine JML doing almost nothing, being forced into the leader slot when the Jedi titan counter squad is better on their own. Imagine JML being royal garbage against almost any meta opponent, and then not supporting his squad almost at all but still hoping that they die slowly enough that he can, alone, kill the enemy. Then he takes a turn and does nothing. Then he uses one messy AOE (which can removed essential status effects like Linked and Deceived, but doesn't really do incredible damage vs GLs). Then he has a basic that's really weak vs DS and not fairly mediocre vs LS--kind of absurd, considering all the sacrifices and weaknesses required to be overcome to get to this point.
People would riot. But because most people are happy with just SLKR, and JML, and Rey, they don't mind if the 4th GL they weren't gonna get anyway simply makes their favorite GLs better in comparison. That's fine! But it doesn't make CG's misrepresentations and refusal thus far to address them okay.
I think my comment got accidentally deleted, so going to repost, sorry in advance if I double post.
I agree with you, think it would be best to get a DS legendary to bolster SEE. For some reason, DS has fewer Journey Guide toons than LS, it’s past time CG gave DS some more love in raw numbers.
JKL was transformative for Rey during the tail end of her shared meta with SLK. I hope SEE can get something comparable to JKL, give players a carrot to chase SEE.
vader and palp already have their homes. Palp can lead empire and vader can be with piet and wat to kill most GLs or teams.
SE has DR, bast, malak, marauder, hk
Trio has themselves (generally left over other sith such as SET and sid.)
My potency to offense proposal would fix maul. he gains potency when he deals damage. would help fix his decent, yet semi low, base damage. sid would actually be a threat for once in his existence. and then savage would just be slightly a bigger beast. to bad these 3 toons have crap base health and protection compared to new toons.
The contrast is super stark with the DS GLs, for sure. My gripe with SLK is probably well known, so not going to rehash that one lol. It’s just so ridiculous how many advantages he has, not just in PVE but also squad comps, prereqs, and even has a usable fleet!
The LS GLs are more comparable, since one has an actual usable ult but her faction is garbo, while the other has ridiculously strong baseline abilities but effectively no ult, no leadership, and no taunt unless you use a DS crutch. They both need the same OP Jedi, so they’re worse than what should be the sum of two GL parts.
I have no clue what CG’s endgame balance is for GLs. I just know that you can’t succeed with only one GL, unless that GL is SLK. That’s a huge red flag in my eyes, but CG gonna CG...
Much appreciated, @Kyno
@CG_Doja_Fett It would be nice to hear something soon.
And the LS rebel GL will have every debuff in the game, every buff, prevent all allies from dieing all the time, and deal massive damage every time they attack with any move.
And still won’t be able to solo HSTR for some reason.😆
Your right. He won't solo HSTR but instead Challange Rancor
Emperor Palpatine squad, not even needing to fracture SEE:
Really good video, impressive for EP and disaster for SEE.
But did you check the mods?
Did you have the correct squad?
Was it after midnight in August after a downpour of rain?
actually, we can ask @dgree about this match and mods, I just can say speed mods of rival not so bad due to turn order. On the whole it looks like a reliable counter against SEE
I'm talking for arena purposes mainly for beating Rey and Kylo teams
Jml teams there doesn't seem to be any issue.
Rey is a struggle and usually becomes a 1v1 at the end with the hope I can defeat her before she gets her ultimate off again.
It would appear that the sith trio are a staple for any see team that just leaves slot 5.
I have many r7 sith to choose from
Palp
Malak
Vader
Sideous
Dooku
Revan
Bastilla
What works best in your experience.
I've found vader feeds to much ultimate charge to rey but works well at deleting toons against kylo
Malak seems the obvious replacement suffers against rey teams where there is a gas
What do you guys use?
I use SE with Traya. Having Revan is the only way you will feasibly get that bonus offense from Bastillas Unique, and without it I find beating Rey significantly harder (against JML it doesnt really matter what you use). Even if fear slows dows SEEs ult charge I consider it worth since the ult wont matter if it doesnt deal enough dmg. SET is the only one of the sith tanks that actually works well with SEE, so I pick him over Malak and Sion despite having both at R7. Traya is mostly there to tank JKRs mark but Isloate is still usefull.
use wat. wep tech on see. tank on sion. health pack on DN.
Not 100% chance but it's the best you got.
I run see, darth revan, traya, dark Bastilla, and malak.
So no vader and it works fine against any jml teams. Traya acts as a default tank for jkr and can sometimes survive with her bonus protection so she's almost a must.
I always link jml and jkl since they are immune to fear and will charge the ultimate. Then I focus jkr and pop savior. Then focus gas next until I get the ult and finish.
So pretty reliable against jml teams.
For Rey teams, vader is more reliable without see.
For kylo teams, see is useless.
I'll add that you can reach the point of only having the 15% resist chance pretty easily through proper modding. And once you're at that point see adding more potency does little.
Also, your example with vader is off. I think there's the 15% chance he won't try to apply it but it is irresistible so you have a flat 85% chance. I apply it through tenacity up all the time. That also makes see's lead pretty much useless for that particular mechanic since it doesn't rely of potency at all.
As for other debuffs, you get plenty of potency from most other Sith leads. So adding potency isn't anything special.
I can probably deal without beating Kylo and there seems to be a decent amount of JMLs appearing to keep them low.
I don't have Sith Empire trooper geared or starred. Happy to do so if he makes a significant difference.
Out of interest why is he considered much more useless than other sith tanks such as sion and malak. (I understand malak suffers from lack of protection healing and mastery increases are wasted but he still seems pretty solid)
Whereas Sion seems to slot in nicely, granted he can't revive but other than that I've found he is a natural fit particularly with traya and nihilus.
Would be interested to see why Sith Trooper is considered more effective than sion.