SEE definitely needs a buff!

Replies

  • GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    Give me a insta-win button.

    Do you think SEE shouldn't be able to apply Deceived in general to DS targets? Why? What do you think SEE's post-ultimate basic base damage should be, compared to, say, SLKR? 5% of his damage?

    Surely you have something to contribute if you believe that this proposed change is an "i win button" compared to an older GL attacker like SLKR.

    (This is the part where the people who pop in usually go away because they're transparently just mocking contributors in an attempt to prevent an SEE buff so that their GLs keep their "I win button"--and they have no arguments other than that they feel SEE should just be a bad GL)

    I already did. 4 to 6 pages ago. Go and read.

    I won't comment any further on this:
    "Let's not dismiss anyone's contributions based on suspected ulterior motives, when you have no proof."

    That last part applies to you as well Bud.

    So keep your hypocrisy out of this civilized discussion since YOU have no proof to why he SHOULDN'T be buffed / fixed.
  • I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3

  • I believe SEE needs a buff and JML needs a tweak.
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yes because we havnt been modding him correctly at all when multiple owners have tried MANY different mods and squads.

    How about you learn how to play your rey and not hit auto.

    I have plenty of shard mates who have just rey or JML and said the reys just walk all over him. ANY rey team. Full resistance, droids, ect
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    I have had reasonably good success with SEE vs Rey and JML. I run a slightly different comp but have run that comp as well. I have to say though, against that double tank Kylo, Did that kylo have any mods, zetas, or his ultimate? My mods are considerably better than what you were showing so I can only assume there is something severly lacking from that double tank Kylo team near the end.

    All that said, I have been saying all along that SEE is close, he doesn't need much. The clunkiness of link and the 2 enemy requirement making it easier for 1V5 to beat see vs. 5v5 is a glaring problem that should be addressed with urgency.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • dgree
    384 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    According to the video creator Wiggensbog: "There are other, much better ways to beat slkr, but I was determined to at least find it possible with SEE."

    @RAYRAY it's a vader counter... tricky but doable. SLKR team was fine. SEE still makes the counter squad worse, but at least he doesn't totally sabotage it.
    Post edited by dgree on
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    Another problem with Vader is it FEEDS Rey her ultimate. Plus in the video the player faces a JKR team with Rey support.
    He didn't show off vs a Rey Lead team.

    And yes. I've had some success with SEE vs rey its more of a 50/50 if its Rey lead. And thats with my mods.

    Yes your right RayRay that vader is one of the best sith we have, however it still doesn't excuse SEE for being absolutely dog crap. I can beat those same Rey teams as before with Vader lead with 0 net loss of characters for more banners in GAC or TW... adding SEE actually makes the fight worse and prone to even more rng
  • RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    It's not that I'm dismissing the team because it has Vader in it. I'm dismissing the team because SEE is getting carried. He's not reaching ultimate, Vader is doing all the damage, and if you take SEE out of the team and replace him with someone more useful the Vader counter gets better.
  • MikKro
    140 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Meanwhile OG Palp without Vader

  • Shiryu wrote: »
    So keep your hypocrisy out of this civilized discussion since YOU have no proof to why he SHOULDN'T be buffed / fixed.

    There are plenty of reasons for why he should not receive any buffs.

    - Buffing is unacceptable / not fair play / bait & switch. Kit descriptions should not state "FINAL" in them if they are not. The very least we should be able to trust in the devs that the kits released as final are final. For example, Rey and SLKR numbers would be a lot different if people knew SLKR's real kit when the GLs were released. There was no compensation for people who chose Rey.
    - Buffing causes more harm than good. You have to go by the least harm caused principle.
    - SEE is the cheapest GL to acquire.
    - SEE is the recommended / encouraged follow-up to SLKR, who is the unchallenged number one GL. Pairing the best with the worst seems balanced.
    - Say SLKR -> SEE is the most popular choice among the population for a GL pair, what sense is there to promote it even further by buffing SEE? Say that choice is not the most popular one. If you buff SEE it will likely be, so what sense is there to buff SEE? You have a catch-22 situation in here.
    - You were spoiled with SLKR and now you are comparing his performance vs. SEE. If you had experienced Rey resistance vs. SLKR I suppose your opinion on SEE might be a little different.
    - Squad arena is now like any ecosystem. SEE's food, JMLs, are still scarce and his predators, SLKRs, plentiful so is it any wonder that he does not look like he is thriving? Your buff propositions would lead to the collapse of this nascent ecosystem.
    - If you look at GL expected defensive win rates weighted with GL prevalence (and with some assumptions like most people have 1-2 GLs and SEE players get in top 10 daily) you get def win rates like this: JML 30%, SEE 15%, SLKR 10%, Rey 5%. SEE is already the second best defensive option even in this disadvantageous for him ecosystem. I am not going to paste the table here, you are free to re-create it and see for yourself.
    - A better way to buff SEE would be to nerf SLKR.
    - JML vs. SEE matchup is already difficult enough. SEE buffs would have to see that this specific matchup in terms of difficulty stays as is.
  • I dont understand people who keep saying SEE shouldn’t receive any buff because SLKR is good. It is 2 different characters with their own requirements. This topic is not about SLKR
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yeah mods will fix those dozen b-tier counter teams that beat SEE.
  • Shiryu wrote: »
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yes because we havnt been modding him correctly at all when multiple owners have tried MANY different mods and squads.

    How about you learn how to play your rey and not hit auto.

    I have plenty of shard mates who have just rey or JML and said the reys just walk all over him. ANY rey team. Full resistance, droids, ect

    Thank you for your advice, I never hit the auto button! Loosing few rounds doesn't mean most rounds, so thank you ! While you are modding so well and can't beat any Kylo, maybe you should try autoplay ^^

    @dgree what is the problem with including Vador as SEE is the Sith Emperor... Maybe Kylo should pair with ewoks as a standard line-up if that is irrelevant.
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    What strikes me most is how slow these opponent squads are
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yes because we havnt been modding him correctly at all when multiple owners have tried MANY different mods and squads.

    How about you learn how to play your rey and not hit auto.

    I have plenty of shard mates who have just rey or JML and said the reys just walk all over him. ANY rey team. Full resistance, droids, ect

    Thank you for your advice, I never hit the auto button! Loosing few rounds doesn't mean most rounds, so thank you ! While you are modding so well and can't beat any Kylo, maybe you should try autoplay ^^

    @dgree what is the problem with including Vador as SEE is the Sith Emperor... Maybe Kylo should pair with ewoks as a standard line-up if that is irrelevant.
    dgree wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    It's not that I'm dismissing the team because it has Vader in it. I'm dismissing the team because SEE is getting carried. He's not reaching ultimate, Vader is doing all the damage, and if you take SEE out of the team and replace him with someone more useful the Vader counter gets better.

  • GJO wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    Rather than rewriting the kit, I'm going to suggest some fixes (largely based on the issues spotted a month ago, which have only been confirmed by new evidence as time has gone on). These are conservative touchups to SEE's kit that are narrowly tailored towards alleviating his extreme weaknesses (which aren't currently balanced by strengths). I'll put the fixes in order of priority, and the fewer fixes applied, the stronger the applied fixes would need to be for SEE to be balanced. Explanations following the fix list.

    The fixes:
    1. Dramatically increase base damage multiplier on Revitalized Shock (post-ultimate basic). If we're worried about too much damage vs LS, reduce the LS %, or remove the LS restriction (next fix) and take this bonus damage into account.
    2. Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    3. Increase the increment % of SEE leadership stacking mastery gain
    4. Whenever a Sith ally is defeated, increase SEE's stats (sacrifice mechanic for % stats or their mastery)
    5. Apply critical hit removal and reduced damage output of Linked to enemy GLs.
    6. Ultimate Charge: If there is only one enemy combatant, SEE gains 10% Ultimate Charge (instead of 2%) whenever a Deceived enemy uses an ability.
    7. Whenever a Linked enemy is defeated, SEE gains a bonus turn and the cooldown of Unraveled Destiny is reset
    8. When SEE uses ultimate he gains a bonus turn


    Fix explanations:
    1. SEE's basic damage is poopy doodoo in general -- eg. SLKR's basic with only double-hit has about triple SEE's multiplier before taking into account SEE's inferior mastery and defense penetration base stats.
    2. Specifically regarding Deceived: In the limited testing of SEE vs DS opponents (due to a DS SEE squad being unable to beat SLKR) there seem to be major issues applying and spreading Deceived to the enemy squad, especially after ultimate when SEE loses Deceived on basic and often no enemies have Deceived, and no enemies can be Deceived. In general, the LS/Rebel/Jedi strengths are portrayed as a bonus and a strength when these kit features are basically just cloaking SEE's weakness (which is why we're seeing modest damage vs jedi, and poor damage vs DS). And the restriction doesn't make sense thematically since SEE deceived everyone.
    3. SEE's stacking mastery doesn't give him good offense gain. Mastery sounds sexy, but even an old school Sid lead boost damage more. From bast/JML/wat we can see that SLKR's damage late into the battle is about 3x SEE's vs Jedi, and probably around 10x more if SEE loses 150% bonus and defense penetration vs DS.
    4. SEE's lead does very little for his allies (thrawn and malak are better under SLKR, for example) and his allies don't improve his stats, they just regenerate his protection when they die. This is why SEE struggles to get to ultimate and is so easily soloed, and fairly commonly countered. This would actually encourage more Sith, and could make toons like Sidious potentially slightly relevant.
    5. Other GLs provide strong crit immunity against the entire enemy squad, including enemy GLs, and major buffs and support for themselves and their squad. This allows SEE to reduce damage from only one enemy attacker, even if it's a GL.
    6. SEE can't apply Linked if there is only one enemy. Hopefully SEE won't be so weak as a leader that he can be soloed so easily (either 1v5 by GLs, or 1v1 by non-GLs), but if he is this will help by allowing him to still reach ultimate.
    7. Similar to the solo issue, SEE is very vulnerable to enemies using paper tanks who are the first linked target and forcing SEE to kill them and remove Linked. This is a more conservative alternative to allowing SEE to ignore taunt in general or on his first Linked application. We've seen this with NS, Geos, and Imp Troopers.
    8. SEE using his ultimate then doing is kind of weird, right? Let him use an ability after transforming!

    Remove LS/rebel/jedi restrictions, particularly from Sow Discord's Deceived application on SEE's turn
    Give me a insta-win button.

    *an
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yes because we havnt been modding him correctly at all when multiple owners have tried MANY different mods and squads.

    How about you learn how to play your rey and not hit auto.

    I have plenty of shard mates who have just rey or JML and said the reys just walk all over him. ANY rey team. Full resistance, droids, ect

    Thank you for your advice, I never hit the auto button! Loosing few rounds doesn't mean most rounds, so thank you ! While you are modding so well and can't beat any Kylo, maybe you should try autoplay ^^

    @dgree what is the problem with including Vador as SEE is the Sith Emperor... Maybe Kylo should pair with ewoks as a standard line-up if that is irrelevant.

    Yeah ok Mr. Hot shot. Tell that to the many whales and good players in my shard that beat my SEE with little effort.
    My mods were better that that vids setup.
    My opponent and reys have worse teams then what was shown.
    Obviously you have no sense of how to play. Instead of mashing your ult maybe save it for 5 seconds and use more whirlwinds. they do 300k each and 1 shot anything thats not a GL.
    I have plenty of 1st hand accounts from my shards rey users that flat out say "I misplayed and yet still won. Second and third battles i had 1 lost character or all alive at the end."
    And this was vs multiple comps that I ASKED them to test. Each round of 3 to 4 battles i would remod, change teams, and ask again.

    So bro. Get Gud
  • Spharynx01 wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    Yes because we havnt been modding him correctly at all when multiple owners have tried MANY different mods and squads.

    How about you learn how to play your rey and not hit auto.

    I have plenty of shard mates who have just rey or JML and said the reys just walk all over him. ANY rey team. Full resistance, droids, ect

    Thank you for your advice, I never hit the auto button! Loosing few rounds doesn't mean most rounds, so thank you ! While you are modding so well and can't beat any Kylo, maybe you should try autoplay ^^

    @dgree what is the problem with including Vador as SEE is the Sith Emperor... Maybe Kylo should pair with ewoks as a standard line-up if that is irrelevant.

    Actually for the record, since you seem to want to follow the line of questioning that comp carrying the team doesn't mean the toon is bad, let's explore all the people who can solo SEE:

    Kylo (so him with Ewoks probably wouldn't be half bad at beating SEE)

    Rey (so her with Ewoks or Jawas probably wouldn't be half bad, and the fact that you can beat her is only dependent on Vader and other parts of the standard Rey counter anyway. The team would honestly be better under Thrawn or Vader lead and lose you fewer banners.)

    SEE (which shows how broken his Ultimate mechanics are, because he can cheese himself out by ult-ing while preventing an opposing ult entirely. The same team with someone other than SEE [see Thrawn] would be able to win by having more control and not relying on SEE ult-ing to do most of the control/damage)

    JML can 3 v 3 and maybe even 3 v 5 the only GL given explicit advantages over him, and if that doesn't work has the Jericho comp. (Given he's carried by his team, but he's a tank, so that's to be expected. His only job is to take hits, yet he has a lineup where he demolishes an entire team.)

    So yeah, a team like Vader carrying your SEE is relevant, because it means that he's the weak link whenever something does go wrong. Especially with tried and true comps like Vader/Thrawn/Wat. They literally do better without him, and the other GL's can keep themselves afloat without the need for a team.
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    dgree wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    It's not that I'm dismissing the team because it has Vader in it. I'm dismissing the team because SEE is getting carried. He's not reaching ultimate, Vader is doing all the damage, and if you take SEE out of the team and replace him with someone more useful the Vader counter gets better.

    Thats a good point, Vader kills people too quickly many times preventing the ultimate. Remove vader, and put in DN for example, the match may last a little longer and SEE will need to do more to win.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    It's not that I'm dismissing the team because it has Vader in it. I'm dismissing the team because SEE is getting carried. He's not reaching ultimate, Vader is doing all the damage, and if you take SEE out of the team and replace him with someone more useful the Vader counter gets better.

    Thats a good point, Vader kills people too quickly many times preventing the ultimate. Remove vader, and put in DN for example, the match may last a little longer and SEE will need to do more to win.

    Yep, both Vader and SEE could be in better comps and achieve a more desirable result here. The problem is, even then, that the Vader comp does better than the improved SEE comp most of the time. It's a tried and true GL counter to use Vader and Thrawn and sometimes Wat. SEE doesn't have a team that can counter the other GL's without using those three as well, and most of the time it's less effective than those three on their own or under a different leader.

    At this point, Vader, Thrawn, and Wat are more useful characters than SEE, since they can kill all four GL's in the right team. And none of them are GLs or even Hero's Journey characters. If one of them was even an Epic Confrontation it might be excusable, but they aren't.
  • RAYRAY
    2761 posts Member
    str2019 wrote: »
    Shiryu wrote: »
    So keep your hypocrisy out of this civilized discussion since YOU have no proof to why he SHOULDN'T be buffed / fixed.

    There are plenty of reasons for why he should not receive any buffs.

    - Buffing is unacceptable / not fair play / bait & switch. Kit descriptions should not state "FINAL" in them if they are not. The very least we should be able to trust in the devs that the kits released as final are final. For example, Rey and SLKR numbers would be a lot different if people knew SLKR's real kit when the GLs were released. There was no compensation for people who chose Rey.
    - Buffing causes more harm than good. You have to go by the least harm caused principle.
    - SEE is the cheapest GL to acquire.
    - SEE is the recommended / encouraged follow-up to SLKR, who is the unchallenged number one GL. Pairing the best with the worst seems balanced.
    - Say SLKR -> SEE is the most popular choice among the population for a GL pair, what sense is there to promote it even further by buffing SEE? Say that choice is not the most popular one. If you buff SEE it will likely be, so what sense is there to buff SEE? You have a catch-22 situation in here.
    - You were spoiled with SLKR and now you are comparing his performance vs. SEE. If you had experienced Rey resistance vs. SLKR I suppose your opinion on SEE might be a little different.
    - Squad arena is now like any ecosystem. SEE's food, JMLs, are still scarce and his predators, SLKRs, plentiful so is it any wonder that he does not look like he is thriving? Your buff propositions would lead to the collapse of this nascent ecosystem.
    - If you look at GL expected defensive win rates weighted with GL prevalence (and with some assumptions like most people have 1-2 GLs and SEE players get in top 10 daily) you get def win rates like this: JML 30%, SEE 15%, SLKR 10%, Rey 5%. SEE is already the second best defensive option even in this disadvantageous for him ecosystem. I am not going to paste the table here, you are free to re-create it and see for yourself.
    - A better way to buff SEE would be to nerf SLKR.
    - JML vs. SEE matchup is already difficult enough. SEE buffs would have to see that this specific matchup in terms of difficulty stays as is.

    Most of your premise is incorrect. For example, I was a Rey owner who wanted a DS GL. My expectations were that the most powerful being ever to exist in star wars canon would be as they described. NOW, I don't think he need much, something to make it hard to win 1v5 where now, because of linked, it is easier for the other GLS to beat him solo than with another teammate. That is broken.
    ☮ Consular ☮ American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor) JedhaYavin IV
  • Sewpot
    1563 posts Member
    Spharynx01 wrote: »
    I repeat, SEE is fine! Mod him correctly and he holds well in defense as well! It's not because he is exactly what players want that he's not good enough. I've lost few rounds against SEE with rey, a buff would just create a gap. Thank you in advance for your hatred <3


    What strikes me most is how slow these opponent squads are
    I’m more impressed by no lose of characters. Palp a better jml killer that SEE.
  • RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    RAYRAY wrote: »
    dgree wrote: »
    @Spharynx01 we already know Vader is pretty decent and can beat a lot of teams. DR can also beat a lot of teams. This thread is about SEE. We don't need to hate you, we just need you to read stuff that's already been discussed. Ideally SEE's weaknesses would be fixed and he would do more damage, but Rey would still be able to beat him (SEE also can lose a lot vs Rey, it happens).

    As someone who completely agrees that SEE needs a tweak, particularly to linked. What I don't understand why any SEE team with Vader is dismissed. Vader is the best sith we have today. I believe now, after running vader with SEE for a while, that SEE's damage is lower because of Vader. That is speculation but Vader is likely a part of the best sith team, rightfully so. Dismissing any team that has vader on it is similar to dismissing a JML team that includes GAS or JKL. The problem with SEE may be the fact that Vader is really the only Elite level sith that doesn't destroy his ability to get to ultimate (SE).

    It's not that I'm dismissing the team because it has Vader in it. I'm dismissing the team because SEE is getting carried. He's not reaching ultimate, Vader is doing all the damage, and if you take SEE out of the team and replace him with someone more useful the Vader counter gets better.

    Thats a good point, Vader kills people too quickly many times preventing the ultimate. Remove vader, and put in DN for example, the match may last a little longer and SEE will need to do more to win.

    Yep, both Vader and SEE could be in better comps and achieve a more desirable result here. The problem is, even then, that the Vader comp does better than the improved SEE comp most of the time. It's a tried and true GL counter to use Vader and Thrawn and sometimes Wat. SEE doesn't have a team that can counter the other GL's without using those three as well, and most of the time it's less effective than those three on their own or under a different leader.

    At this point, Vader, Thrawn, and Wat are more useful characters than SEE, since they can kill all four GL's in the right team. And none of them are GLs or even Hero's Journey characters. If one of them was even an Epic Confrontation it might be excusable, but they aren't.
    This in a nutshell is why SEE, aside from the narrow exception of his anti-JML prot drain, simply isn't giving Sith much value and SLKR is a better Sith and Empire leader. SEE has a bunch of weaknesses to make him bad plus a ton of anti-synergy with both major Sith squads (neither of which are in his requirements). If Sith can already kill all the GLs better than SEE can (it's tricky and requires some top-notch toons, but so does SEE apparently) and SEE drops below the meta on defense, what's the point of SEE? Any good Sith or Jedi squad can already climb to the top then drop without a GL, but at least JML does a few important things (even if it's not enough) rather than making his squad worse and getting almost no benefit from them either.
  • LordDunbar wrote: »

    Okay the rest of it I was just gonna chalk up as funny but sad, but did they win with nearly full banners on that last one? Against a GL?

    We can call this all the result of Kuill beefing them up if we want, but last time I checked he wasn't the GL in this video :D
  • Shiryu
    389 posts Member
    edited November 2020
    LordDunbar wrote: »

    Okay the rest of it I was just gonna chalk up as funny but sad, but did they win with nearly full banners on that last one? Against a GL?

    We can call this all the result of Kuill beefing them up if we want, but last time I checked he wasn't the GL in this video :D

    There's already talk of Kuiil and the new IG11 super charging BH, other scoundrels, and most importantly rey.

    Rey, Kuiil, ig11, l3, vandor/zaal will be near impossible to beat save for another GL. Just gotta get the whales to get 7* ig11 and test it out once ig11 is released.

    I refuse to give CG any money after how bad they messed up on SEE.
Sign In or Register to comment.