Yesterday a guy in my guild almost soloed 2 phases in tank raid with a completely different setup than this Lugo thing. There are a couple of setups available to almost solo one phase or two. A nerf cannot be the solution to this problem. Obviously there are many guilds out there that need a new challenge. For Heroic Rancor and HAAT currently a lot of coordination and communication is needed in order to let every guild members take at least one shot. Rancor can be done in 10 mins and HAAT within a few hours or even less.
Since CG-KoziSpoon stated that raids are about working together on a task that cant be completed by one guy alone the solution is to have a new type of raid available.
Meh... Months ago I could clear a phase in the Pit raid with three characters, no zetas, and medium/good mods (good is subjective). I'm not sure I see the difference between that and a three-character squad clearing a phase of the Tank raid. And even now, plenty of people still get full solos in the Pit. If the game keeps going the way it has been recently, it won't be long before we'll be able to solo Tank phases easily, and eventually solo the whole thing. It's called power creep.
The way I see it, the only real difference in this case is that the power creep wasn't initiated by CG to make money. If Nute was behind a paywall and his leader ability needed a zeta, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Crying shame, that.
I would say +1 to a lot of folks sentiments. You take a character who begins which a very niche utility. Anyone who actually farmed him probably farmed him to use with Leia which works well on GW nodes with a lot of tank toons. Outside of that specific application he is more or less useless. Then you introduce r2 with a new ability making it possible to use any toon with a good air attack in the same way. It's not super broken because the stealth only lasts a couple of turns but it disrupts gameplay enough that the devs nerf his leader ability. Now everyone who was using him for a specific purpose has to toss the toon on the scrap heap because they didn't really think the release of a new toon through. Now poor nute is sitting on a scrap heap and any player who built him up early on gets totally screwed until someone with outstanding creativity finds a way to use his new nerfed lead to great effect in a raid phase. The skill is working exactly as worded since echos unique is worded basically the same way and clones heal on assists.
The worst part of this is that it is currently a while lot of noise about something that is extremely hard to set up and execute properly. It's heavily rng dependent since you always have a chance to miss and every miss gives substantial tm to a tank that was built to tear apart jawas. In any competitive guild people will be substantially through p2 before you even get it going since p2 already has tons of teams that can seriously hammer on it.
Waste of time, waste of resources, and as usual, a massive amount of crying over nothing.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
Thanks for giving a semantically identical statement.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
I'm pretty sure the Rancor was not soloable when it was released. Toons didn't have any protection, mods, zeta so it was harder than now.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
I'm pretty sure the Rancor was not soloable when it was released. Toons didn't have any protection, mods, zeta so it was harder than now.
AAT was harder when it was first released as well. It's now been out for 9 months. How much time needs to pass before it becomes acceptable to solo parts of it not involving clones or zylo?
My prediction is they will make P2/P4 more difficult rendering the trio useless, or they will put Nute on hit list and cannon will open up on him first and hit for 99999.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
I'm pretty sure the Rancor was not soloable when it was released. Toons didn't have any protection, mods, zeta so it was harder than now.
Haat was harder when it was first released as well. It's now been out for 9 months. How much time needs to pass before it becomes acceptable to solo parts of it not involving clones or zylo?
nAAT was harder. I have no idea about HAAT since I don't play it yet.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
I'm pretty sure the Rancor was not soloable when it was released. Toons didn't have any protection, mods, zeta so it was harder than now.
Haat was harder when it was first released as well. It's now been out for 9 months. How much time needs to pass before it becomes acceptable to solo parts of it not involving clones or zylo?
nAAT was harder. I have no idea about HAAT since I don't play it yet.
I likely misspoke. Thanks!
Regardless, the point is things get easier over time because of power creep, faction passes, and better strategies. I feel this raid has been out long enough that nerfing one strategy is silly when there are others that have the same effect.
1) Change leader to make it so TM gains are only during attacker's turn and not assist (i.e. Jawa can't call in Leia to assist and Leia gains TM because not her turn)
2) Change leader to give 40% TM instead of 50 (why would they change it to 49? They gain 98% TM each time and will still roll out too much before the Tank can get a say.)
It will still take a bunch of turns just to get the tank toppled. Gaining only 98% TM will make it tough for many to even get the tank toppled.
So it's okay to Solo phase 1 with one character. (Zylo)
It's also okay to Solo Phase 4 with five characters. (Princess Clones)
But now it's not okay to Solo Phase 4 with Nute and two Jawas?
What am I missing here? Hasn't Nute been reworked a couple of times already?
Whenever we get to have fun with something, the thing gets Nerfed? Hmmm
1 guy has cleared a phase once with clones after months of work. With this it was 3 toons on auto and there were dozens of copycats the same day because it takes almost no investment to build the team. And they could put it on auto. That's the difference.
Ignoring Zylo? Solo an entire phase with 1 character...that's okay?
Irrelevant. But I didn't ignore him, I already answered that.
So it's okay to Solo phase 1 with one character. (Zylo)
It's also okay to Solo Phase 4 with five characters. (Princess Clones)
But now it's not okay to Solo Phase 4 with Nute and two Jawas?
What am I missing here? Hasn't Nute been reworked a couple of times already?
Whenever we get to have fun with something, the thing gets Nerfed? Hmmm
1 guy has cleared a phase once with clones after months of work. With this it was 3 toons on auto and there were dozens of copycats the same day because it takes almost no investment to build the team. And they could put it on auto. That's the difference.
Ignoring Zylo? Solo an entire phase with 1 character...that's okay?
Irrelevant. But I didn't ignore him, I already answered that.
So if nute needed a zeta for his leader ability would this team comp work?
Can you address the numerous times people have pointed out this is very difficult to setup properly and get good rng, probably more so difficult than getting lucky with zylo p1 retreats?
This is literally the same instance only instead of a max zylo it's the same credits, ability mats and mostly gear across 3 (or 4 with r2) toons. The argument that zylo is ok because he is zeta and costs more is absurd. The argument the nute trick can run on auto is just as weak since you dont enter p2 and hit auto and it solos the phase.
The argument that it can run on auto is the most valid and most important. It takes a few turns to setup then the overwhelming majority of time is spent on auto. That is the problem.
The reason it's irrelevant is because i never made the argument Zylo was ok.
Its still not fool proof. The likelyhood of a full solo is staggeringly low. I tried it and it was extremely hard to set up and results we profoundly variable once set up. There seems to be about a 5% or so built in chance of any toon registering a miss instead of a hit. And once the tank comes out of topple, it doesn't take it long to end any jawa.
So it's okay to Solo phase 1 with one character. (Zylo)
It's also okay to Solo Phase 4 with five characters. (Princess Clones)
But now it's not okay to Solo Phase 4 with Nute and two Jawas?
What am I missing here? Hasn't Nute been reworked a couple of times already?
Whenever we get to have fun with something, the thing gets Nerfed? Hmmm
1 guy has cleared a phase once with clones after months of work. With this it was 3 toons on auto and there were dozens of copycats the same day because it takes almost no investment to build the team. And they could put it on auto. That's the difference.
Ignoring Zylo? Solo an entire phase with 1 character...that's okay?
Irrelevant. But I didn't ignore him, I already answered that.
Isn't it strange how you're the only one who seems to think the Kylo comparison is irrelevant?
You just totally mischaracterized what I said.
He said I was ignoring Zylo, which was irrelevant to my point. I intentionally did not include Zylo in showing the dichotomy of valid teams doing massive damage like clones vs an exploit like Nute.
Which is that a Nute team doing massive damage on auto is a defect and not comparable to a team like clones or Resistance doing massive damage that had to be carefully played every attempt throughout the attempt after having spent an enormous amount of resources and time building a team.
So it's okay to Solo phase 1 with one character. (Zylo)
It's also okay to Solo Phase 4 with five characters. (Princess Clones)
But now it's not okay to Solo Phase 4 with Nute and two Jawas?
What am I missing here? Hasn't Nute been reworked a couple of times already?
Whenever we get to have fun with something, the thing gets Nerfed? Hmmm
1 guy has cleared a phase once with clones after months of work. With this it was 3 toons on auto and there were dozens of copycats the same day because it takes almost no investment to build the team. And they could put it on auto. That's the difference.
Ignoring Zylo? Solo an entire phase with 1 character...that's okay?
Irrelevant. But I didn't ignore him, I already answered that.
Isn't it strange how you're the only one who seems to think the Kylo comparison is irrelevant?
You just totally mischaracterized what I said.
He said I was ignoring Zylo, which was irrelevant to my point. I intentionally did not include Zylo in showing the dichotomy of valid teams doing massive damage like clones vs an exploit like Nute.
Which is that a Nute team doing massive damage on auto is a defect and not comparable to a team like clones or Resistance doing massive damage that had to be carefully played every attempt throughout the attempt after having spent an enormous amount of resources and time building a team.
You're focused way too much on "investment" in my opinion. So someone chased the raid meta early and reaped the rewards, or started chasing it late and a new cheaper and less effective meta came out, but they still get to reap the rewards. Not to mention they now have all of those toons ready for anything they might be usable for in the future, while the Nute people are stuck with 3, basically useless toons, outside of this particular application.
I spent a lot of time and resources investing in previously arena viable toons that are no longer viable. At least the viability of the raid comps, regardless of resource expenditure, remains the same.
My guild can't do heroic tank cause only about 30 or so of us are level 85's with some good teams the rest can't do much and having something to help clear the way would be nice, we clearly can't just pull 20 more random level 85's in, nobody joins. I don't even care about General kenobi I just wanna beat the raid
Ea created the game. They thought that they made it to be played a certain way. The players who spend hours figured out ways to manipulate certain situations in their benefit. This leave Ea flabergasted because they didnt take into consideration that the gamers could do this. Now they wanna fix it. Maybe the devs should have spent more time researching each toon and ability for each and every situation. But nope, they wanna put things out there so fast to get their money. Same thing happens with new cars..then months and years later there is a recall because a certain part can catch fire.
This all goes back to the devs not testing the game better. Sorry but thats just a hard truth.
Ea created the game. They thought that they made it to be played a certain way. The players who spend hours figured out ways to manipulate certain situations in their benefit. This leave Ea flabergasted because they didnt take into consideration that the gamers could do this. Now they wanna fix it. Maybe the devs should have spent more time researching each toon and ability for each and every situation. But nope, they wanna put things out there so fast to get their money. Same thing happens with new cars..then months and years later there is a recall because a certain part can catch fire.
This all goes back to the devs not testing the game better. Sorry but thats just a hard truth.
Thats a online game for ya.
I posted this elsewhere, but I think it was an assumption that Zylo couldn't do all that damage in p1 by himself and Nute with two random jawas wasn't going to be able to do massive damage in p2.
Also, we as the player base are always asking for new things, hence the rush of things so it doesn't get stale.
I see both sides of the coin here, but I'm really with the players on this. It was wai within the mechanics of the ability described until proven otherwise.
Ea created the game. They thought that they made it to be played a certain way. The players who spend hours figured out ways to manipulate certain situations in their benefit. This leave Ea flabergasted because they didnt take into consideration that the gamers could do this. Now they wanna fix it. Maybe the devs should have spent more time researching each toon and ability for each and every situation. But nope, they wanna put things out there so fast to get their money. Same thing happens with new cars..then months and years later there is a recall because a certain part can catch fire.
This all goes back to the devs not testing the game better. Sorry but thats just a hard truth.
Thats a online game for ya.
This is true.
Too much focus on dishing out shiny new pixel toys over fixing the current foundations -- which, sooner or later, leads to rotting (power creep / Lugo etc.) for some things that weren't even foreseen.
Ok. For the people that keep posting "I don't u.... They didn't make the raid for 3 undergeared toons to solo a phase with very little effort to get them to gear 8. This lame.....
Well, TECHNICALLY, they did make the raid for 3 undergeared toons to solo a phase or we wouldn't be having this conversation
Replies
If you show that video to 100 people 99 say its is unintended behavior.
The other guy plays swgoh and has Chaze.
Since CG-KoziSpoon stated that raids are about working together on a task that cant be completed by one guy alone the solution is to have a new type of raid available.
The way I see it, the only real difference in this case is that the power creep wasn't initiated by CG to make money. If Nute was behind a paywall and his leader ability needed a zeta, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Crying shame, that.
The worst part of this is that it is currently a while lot of noise about something that is extremely hard to set up and execute properly. It's heavily rng dependent since you always have a chance to miss and every miss gives substantial tm to a tank that was built to tear apart jawas. In any competitive guild people will be substantially through p2 before you even get it going since p2 already has tons of teams that can seriously hammer on it.
Waste of time, waste of resources, and as usual, a massive amount of crying over nothing.
Didn´t think about it really. The word "problem" reflects the statement given by CG. They basically say raids should not be soloable. But they are. So this is somehow a "problem".
Generally it seems obvious that after so many releases of powerful toons the tank raid would become easier.
AAT was never intended to be solo-able.
Thanks for giving a semantically identical statement.
I'm sure the pit wasn't intended to be solo'd. They made some money off Jyn, so that's acceptable.
I'm pretty sure the Rancor was not soloable when it was released. Toons didn't have any protection, mods, zeta so it was harder than now.
It's still not solo-able
AAT was harder when it was first released as well. It's now been out for 9 months. How much time needs to pass before it becomes acceptable to solo parts of it not involving clones or zylo?
It's not full solo just one phase (2 or 4). You can't solo p3 or p1 with this.
I agree though entirely. Nerf clones and Kylo too then based on the same logic.
nAAT was harder. I have no idea about HAAT since I don't play it yet.
I likely misspoke. Thanks!
Regardless, the point is things get easier over time because of power creep, faction passes, and better strategies. I feel this raid has been out long enough that nerfing one strategy is silly when there are others that have the same effect.
It will still take a bunch of turns just to get the tank toppled. Gaining only 98% TM will make it tough for many to even get the tank toppled.
The argument that it can run on auto is the most valid and most important. It takes a few turns to setup then the overwhelming majority of time is spent on auto. That is the problem.
The reason it's irrelevant is because i never made the argument Zylo was ok.
You just totally mischaracterized what I said.
He said I was ignoring Zylo, which was irrelevant to my point. I intentionally did not include Zylo in showing the dichotomy of valid teams doing massive damage like clones vs an exploit like Nute.
Which is that a Nute team doing massive damage on auto is a defect and not comparable to a team like clones or Resistance doing massive damage that had to be carefully played every attempt throughout the attempt after having spent an enormous amount of resources and time building a team.
You're focused way too much on "investment" in my opinion. So someone chased the raid meta early and reaped the rewards, or started chasing it late and a new cheaper and less effective meta came out, but they still get to reap the rewards. Not to mention they now have all of those toons ready for anything they might be usable for in the future, while the Nute people are stuck with 3, basically useless toons, outside of this particular application.
I spent a lot of time and resources investing in previously arena viable toons that are no longer viable. At least the viability of the raid comps, regardless of resource expenditure, remains the same.
This all goes back to the devs not testing the game better. Sorry but thats just a hard truth.
Thats a online game for ya.
I posted this elsewhere, but I think it was an assumption that Zylo couldn't do all that damage in p1 by himself and Nute with two random jawas wasn't going to be able to do massive damage in p2.
Also, we as the player base are always asking for new things, hence the rush of things so it doesn't get stale.
I see both sides of the coin here, but I'm really with the players on this. It was wai within the mechanics of the ability described until proven otherwise.
Too much focus on dishing out shiny new pixel toys over fixing the current foundations -- which, sooner or later, leads to rotting (power creep / Lugo etc.) for some things that weren't even foreseen.
Well, TECHNICALLY, they did make the raid for 3 undergeared toons to solo a phase or we wouldn't be having this conversation