Update on the Finn/Threepio Raid Interaction: Resulting Finn Modifications [MEGA]

Replies

  • refund like daka please.
  • They said they won’t. But I agree with you. If a zeta ability is changed it should automatically be refunded. More cause for this then the daka refund imo
  • Something in the wording change greatly distresses me -> "whenever they damage an enemy with expose". Does this mean the effects are no longer cumulative with expose stacks and only occurs one time per the attack?
  • mesa176750 wrote: »
    looks like a great fix. If you actually read it, the whole kit works well. It means now you have to run that typical pvp trio of finn, poe, and RT with two more resistance squad members now and you get 25% tm gain, which will be good enough for most pvp situations you'd use him. Plus he gets a crap ton of other buffs. And they have to fix it somehow guys. Just calm down.

    3% tm gain per resistance ally = 15% not 25%.

    I swear that originally it said 5% per ally, but I changed my post.
  • I read it and, personally, I liked it. Does it stop the infinite loop, even for AAT? Yes, but they seriously boosted his kit otherwise. Tm gain and removal, and their testing showed he can score 20% of P3 HSTR. He finally taunts, which always annoyed me that he didn’t, and both his specials are no longer garbage. Also, he deals more damage the longer he’s around, not less (which I always found stupid as well). Plus, he apparently can take down FO well, which, given Episode IX characters are inbound soon-ish, could be really helpful when those two factions change a lot (think KRU and FOX for how they changed last time).
  • @CG_TopHat,
    Finn’s rework seems interesting. But, can you rework with Threepio for Droid synergies?
  • Ultra
    4236 posts Member
    We have internal testing figures that place this new Finn team able to do about 20% of Phase 3 of the Heroic Sith Triumvirate. That’s under our internal testing regime, which means mileage will vary (and our suspicion is it’s probably higher out in the wild of the live game with all the crafty theorycrafters out there).

    I like how they are making it sound like this is a good thing but we all know they're waiting to just nerf whichever toon is used to theorycraft good scores
  • mesa176750 wrote: »
    mesa176750 wrote: »
    looks like a great fix. If you actually read it, the whole kit works well. It means now you have to run that typical pvp trio of finn, poe, and RT with two more resistance squad members now and you get 25% tm gain, which will be good enough for most pvp situations you'd use him. Plus he gets a crap ton of other buffs. And they have to fix it somehow guys. Just calm down.

    3% tm gain per resistance ally = 15% not 25%.

    I swear that originally it said 5% per ally, but I changed my post.

    Maybe you saw where it reduces enemy tm by 5% per resistance ally.
  • Rmaxtpmx wrote: »
    Massena777 wrote: »
    So the only reason I zeta'd this character is now gone. We should get the zeta refunded just like with the daka refund with the zombie rework.

    It was said something would be done immediately. If you zeta'd him any, that's on you. You still have a very good team good tw/ga. Move on.

    there are ppl that zeta'd this character long before C3PO came in the game and long before they announced the changes. but it looks like its my fault that i could not foresee that
  • Rmaxtpmx wrote: »
    Massena777 wrote: »
    So the only reason I zeta'd this character is now gone. We should get the zeta refunded just like with the daka refund with the zombie rework.

    It was said something would be done immediately. If you zeta'd him any, that's on you. You still have a very good team good tw/ga. Move on.

    No you dont lmao check his kit lol
  • Why? Finn is good no ?
  • Rmaxtpmx wrote: »
    I want a refund on his zeta since its not proven useful..

    You've used it, hence it has been useful. Your logic is flawed.

    That logic may be flawed but not the fact that the zeta has changed drastically. Something this significant needs to be refunded.
  • One of many to come.... "I put a assets on finn to get first place in hstr. I can't did it anymore. Give ma back my zeta" sure. Hey your zeta back. But give back all the rewards you stole.
  • mesa176750 wrote: »
    Droideka wrote: »
    Massena777 wrote: »
    So the only reason I zeta'd this character is now gone. We should get the zeta refunded just like with the daka refund with the zombie rework.
    They said as soon as they discovered the loop that they were going to change it to not work. If you put a zeta on Finn knowing that he was going to be nerfed, that is on you.

    this is the perfect response. Seriously guys.

    And if he was zetad befor thar like most ppl since before jtr, he was the resistance leader. Ahh who cares , yall just shouldn't have in case this happened in the future smh
  • If you're going to nerf finn, can you AT LEAST extend the chance of full g12 and g12+ through the rest of the ranks and not just top 10 locked? That way I dont have to stare at my phone for an hour to get good raid loot.
  • I guess the math is simple: Finn is F2P, Threepio is borederline P2P. In terms of priorities and justifications for refunds, the reason for refund denial is crystal clear.

    Plus the fact that way more people zeta'd Finn than Daka. The logistics would be a nightmare.
  • Boba_The_Fetter
    3176 posts Member
    edited February 16
    My hope is this actually works out to make him way better maybe even tricky on defence.... FOR ONCE ha.

    I'd save judgments till we can use the new Finn. NOBODY said b1 would make seperatists viable Agaisnt revan Jedi when his kit was revealed WITHOUT GG/Magnaguard rework and WITHOUT Droideka.

    Reading a kit is never enough to know if it's gonna be good or not.
  • Um wow.

    You completely gut his kit, take any expose synergy away out side of resistance. (I get 3po but i used zinn lead with other expose toons like Sidious or mace in tw and ga when my roster stretched think.) And have no desire to refund us the Zeta we invested in a character kit that no longer exists?

    You break a character that worked for 2 years because you can't properly test your own characters before you release them because it broke your poorly designed and boring raid. And don't give us the **** that there are too many interactions because Zinn was the expose lead and you didn't test him with the new expose on basic mechanics you added!? It was literally the first thing many of us thought about when we saw that rebels and ewoks gain expose on their basics.

    Yep my wallet is officially closed until you refund the zeta and let us decide whether or not we want to zeta this entirely different abilty. Knowing how ch opperates though it won't happen and the B1 marquee was my last purchase.
  • This completely changes my C3P0-free zFinn resistance team. It will now be useless for PVP content like GA and TW. I want my zeta refunded.
  • Kyno wrote: »
    CG_TopHat wrote:
    TL;DR - To address the Finn/Threepio infinite loop we’ve reworked Finn. We’ve updated Finn’s leader ability, added ramping damage to his kit, and given him a new unique buff, Determination. Please read on for the specifics.
    In December we announced our intention to act upon an unintended interaction involving zFinn and C-3PO that allowed players to auto Phase 3 of the Heroic Sith Triumvirate raid (along with phases in other raids) by leveraging what is functionally an infinite loop. As has been a long-standing policy of ours, when we discover infinite loops we take action on them. Unlike some of our previous instances, where we maybe acted too quickly, we really wanted to continue to iterate until we found something that would stop the interaction and also improve the character(s) affected.
    Finn was released over three years ago along with the release of The Force Awakens. Finn was also one of our earliest characters to receive a zeta, approximately two years ago. After the addition of his zeta, Finn has been a prolific presence within the HAAT raid thanks to his Leader ability, which reduced the cooldowns of all Resistance allies and grants them 35% Turn Meter whenever an enemy takes damage from an Expose. C-3PO brought this to a head with his Cyborg Relations Unique, which allowed for Rebels and Ewoks to inflict an Expose with their basic abilities. This in addition to C-3PO's ability to call his team members to assist with his special ability "Oh My Goodness" meant that the team was able to apply Expose at an extremely high frequency, and thus reap the benefits of Finn's leader ability to stay at 100% Turn Meter while preventing their opponents from taking a turn.
    As a result of this loop, we’ve made some changes to Finn and only Finn. The detailed kit changes are found below but functionally what we’ve done is changed the amount of turn meter he is accruing for the team, given him some more regular team sustain, and a lot more damage output in PvE/Raids.
    How He’s Changed
    Below is the revised ability kit for Finn. We’ve made no changes to his core stats.
    Changes are highlighted in Green.
    Basic - Crack Shot
    Description: Deal Physical damage to target enemy. This attack deals 5% more damage for each time the target has been struck by it.
    Upgrade 1: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 2: +15% Damage
    Upgrade 3: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 4: +5% More Damage
    Upgrade 5: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 6: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 7: +15% Damage and +10% More Damage]/color]
    Final Text: Deal Physical damage to target enemy. This attack deals 20% more damage for each time the target has been struck by it.

    Special 1 - Hold the Line
    (Cooldown Change to 3 turns at Base)
    Description: All Resistance allies recover 5% Health and Protection. Finn gains Advantage, Defense Up, and Taunt for 2 turns, and dispels all debuffs from all allies.
    Upgrade 1: +1% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 2: +2% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 3: +2% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 4: +2% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 5: +3% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 6: +5% Health and Protection recovery
    Upgrade 7: Finn gains Determination for 2 turns

    Final Text: All Resistance allies recover 20% Health and Protection.Finn gains Advantage, Defense Up, Taunt, and Determination for 2 turns, and dispels all debuffs from all allies.
    Determination: Whenever any other Resistance ally falls below 50% Health, Determination expires and Finn Taunts for 2 turns. If that ally was Taunting, it is dispelled. When Determination expires, Finn gains Retribution for 2 turns.

    Special 2 - Takedown
    (Cooldown Change to 2 turns at Base)
    Description: Deal Physical damage to target enemy with a 70% chance to Expose them for 2 turns and a 70% chance to Stun them for 1 turn.
    Upgrade 1: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 2: +15% Expose and Stun Chance
    Upgrade 3: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 4: +5% Damage
    Upgrade 5: +15% Expose and Stun Chance
    Upgrade 6: +20% Damage
    Upgrade 7: This attack deals 60% more damage for each time the target has been struck by it (doubled against Raid Bosses)
    Final Text: Deal Physical damage to target enemy, Expose them for 2 turns, and Stun them for 1 turn. This attack deals 60% more damage for each time the target has been struck by it (doubled against Raid Bosses).
    Leader - Balanced Tactics
    Description: Resistance allies have +30% Defense, Offense, and Potency, and other allies have half that amount.
    Upgrade 1: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 2: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 3: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 4: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 5: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 6: +5% Defense, Offense, and Potency
    Upgrade 7: Each time they damage an Exposed enemy, all Resistance allies gain 3% Turn Meter and the target enemy loses 5% Turn Meter for each Resistance ally; damaging an Exposed enemy also reduces Resistance allies' cooldowns by 1.

    Final Text: Resistance allies have +60% Defense, Offense, and Potency, and other allies have half that amount. Each time they damage an Exposed enemy, all Resistance allies gain 3% Turn Meter and the target enemy loses 5% Turn Meter for each Resistance ally. Damaging an Exposed enemy also reduces Resistance allies' cooldowns by 1.
    Commentary on Changes
    Players will immediately notice that we’ve made some significant changes to Finn’s leader ability. We've reduced the amount of Turn Meter that he and his allies gain from activating Exposes, but now given them the ability to reduce the Exposed enemy's Turn Meter as well. Additionally, the Leader ability scales based on the number of Resistance allies and Resistance allies are the only ones that can activate turn meter gain/loss from exposes. We've also boosted the stat bonuses granted by the Leader ability. Finally we’ve removed Finn’s ability to grant Advantage to Resistance members that have lost Foresight. Thematically we didn’t think this made a lot of sense and practically it didn’t help the Resistance too much.
    In order to help maintain Finn's identity as a powerful character within our raid encounters, we've changed his basic attack and "Takedown" special ability so that they now each deal more damage based on the number of times they've each been used against an enemy. So, while looping the turns may be a bit more difficult, Finn-led Resistance teams in general will take more turns. Consequently, Finn will have significant scaling damage the longer the encounter goes on.
    We've also revisited his "Hold the Line" special, which now recovers Health and Protection for all Resistance allies instead of granting Heal Over Time, and grants him the new "Determination" effect. Determination is a new effect exclusive to Finn, where when another Resistance ally falls below 50% health, and the effect is active, that ally loses Taunt if they have it, and Finn gains Taunt for two turns while dropping the Determination effect. When Finn loses Determination, whether it expires naturally or if an ally triggers its effects, Finn gains Retribution. These changes should allow Finn to provide a much more significant portion of his team's damage and act as the driving force between taking the enemy down faster, rather than extending the battle infinitely.
    PvP Experience Changes
    These changes do not drastically alter the performance of the Finn-led Resistance squad in PvP, but his changes do offer the team some additional utility and a slight improvement in their PvP presence. With ramping damage now present on Finn’s basic ability and his 2nd special ability, the longer he can stay alive and the more turns he can take, the more potent he becomes. Determination goes a long way in making this a reality, as it provides not only an additional means of spreading damage around the team by providing Finn with the ability to Taunt, but also grants him Retribution which can give him a few free hits to ramp up damage on his basic ability. While these changes haven’t brought the Resistance squad into the current competitive meta, they can more handily dispose of teams such as Kylo Ren (Unmasked)-led First Order and General Kenobi-led Jedi.
    PvE Experience Changes
    Finn remains one of the best leaders for PvE and Raid content. Internal testing still has him performing as a top tier performer in the AAT (Phases 2, 3, and 4) and the Pit (Phases 1-4). We have internal testing figures that place this new Finn team able to do about 20% of Phase 3 of the Heroic Sith Triumvirate. That’s under our internal testing regime, which means mileage will vary (and our suspicion is it’s probably higher out in the wild of the live game with all the crafty theorycrafters out there). Overall, his ramping damage, team heal/sustain, and turn meter manipulation make him a potent weapon in the war on rampaging raid monsters.
    We think this should resolve the Finn-Threepio interaction moving forward. As our internal testing has shown that Finn matches or exceeds where he was prior to C-3PO's launch and we expect the community to push him even further, we have no intention of refunding the zeta associated with him. We look forward to your feedback on this proposed change.

    <<DEV POST>>

    I dont rly care about your intentions, you change the Zeta because you released a character without thinking correctly how this toon works with abilitys of existing characters and now its again the community which should stand straight for your mistakes. Shame on you €A
  • Gorem
    1185 posts Member
    I’m curious to know who at CG thought players would be happy with this.

    Whoever thought we'd be happy and find banning characters in TW fun I bet, lol.

    Or that we'd be happy with the price doubling on marque packs.

    The community wanted Finn to change right? Noone had said Change Traya right? Feedback doesn't really exist in this game. People said don't touch Finn. People said Touch Traya. And what happens? xD

    I'm all for the zeta Refund, I wanted to try out the Finn Rebel squad in arena, but that's been neutered now. Finns entire usefulness has been neutered. I had done him before for help in my dps in Haat, and also to help win in GA/TW, and now... He's pointless to use.
  • You've changed the reason I did this zeta and previously refunded people anytime there was a change to a zeta. Please refund this since it's not even close to the same.
  • So why change Finn and not the raid? You are going to make him not as released or as I purchased you understand what that means I assume.....
  • CG: "OMG!! We're not getting nearly as much revenue as we use to! And the whales aren't paying nearly as much anymore! Ahhhhhh."

    CG's Answer: "Let's gut one of the oldest character Zetas in the game. We've already made GP become an overall negative, and rewarded FTP players with GA. That'll get 'em to start paying again, and supporting the game."

    - a former whale
  • This all drives home one fact, that can not, and will not change. Nothing is forever. Heroes can rise and fall in the blink of an eye. We stay, we play, we roll the dice, we hope for the best, prepare for the worst. This is a known fact. It has happened, it will happen, and with the fluidity of the game, it must. Now, we can accept it, or not. As is our choice. If you, like me, will stay, we forefit the right to be upset or surprised. Oh we'll still experience it, we just have to live with it.
    Leader: Grey Area 51 - My Squads: https://swgoh.gg/p/716522998/
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