Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
Oh also, everyone arguing about the Wat comp, we're all ignoring the possibility that Wat lives long enough or moves fast enough to get off a second tech on Bastila or (if it's not 3v3) any other assisting character who could destroy with tech, like JKL with the weapons mod to gain 15% tm for every turn the enemy takes and ignore defense. Even putting that on Bastila is huge because she can dispel faster, or stun more often. If Wat doesn't die fast, that comp becomes even harder to beat. Which means the SEE played it as right as possible by killing off everyone else fast, and still couldn't kill JML.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
And if you can admit it's a bad team without even seeing anyone but SEE on that team, then you're acknowledging the problem. He's a bad character. Wanna debate if the other GL's or even other meta teams would ever get stalemated this badly? SLKR wouldn't win against Luke anyway, so no stalemate there, but he could kill off Wat with Han taking away the bonus turn because he outspeeds JML with good mods and would be able to control the round and AOE out of the gate. Rey outspeeds everyone with good mods and could sudden whirlwind often enough to kill Wat, especially with a team going after Luke efflux, like Resistance or Jawas even. They would dip low enough to reset whirlwind cooldown practically every turn. Wat wouldn't get the tech off there.
There are comps and counters to this, the problem isn't that Wat with Bastila and JML is unbeatable, it's that SEE can't do anything about it regardless of who's on his team, making him the weak link involved.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details
To add on, are we ignoring all the details it does provide? Saying that it provides no details is ignorant at this point, there is an entire pages worth of replies on why that's false.
Also we know for a fact the SEE is reliced, that's a relevant detail.
On the "devastating attacker" note, SEE cannot beat that BaSh/WAT team, but SLKR's damage ramps up enough to do it. Lol
All things lead to SLKR
Just don't get the new GLs, they don't do anything the old ones don't already do and in fact are worse in other areas, most notably raids.
And if you got them, well just move on and don't pre farm or spend on anything until you have seen it in the wild for a month or so. CG has clearly moved on from a dominant new meta phase. They are on the, gear the new Baby Yoda IG88 as fast as you can phase now.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
I argued that we do not know the mods, and that there are team comps that could work. You apparently think that the player with JML has good mods and the other player cannot have any mods that can make this work..... since we have no information on either side.... what's the point, which is again why I said providing no information makes this misleading. It's a soap box for one side.
You like that, I get it, but that's what makes it misleading. There are no details.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
1 year ago, I'd say yes. But in the current Meta, no, definitely not.
Rey and Kylo's AOEs can wipe out an entire team, they get to use them much quicker, and multiple times. We've even seen video evidence of JML wiping out an entire team too with the Jericho squad comp.
SEE's ultimate AoE takes longer to use, can be used only once realistically (twice if extremely lucky), only insta kills 2 linked heros (not an entire team). Yeah, it can wipe out an entire team of Jedi sometimes, but that's it. Rey and Kylo don't discriminate.
As it stands now, SEE is the worst attacker of the 4 GLs, so to call him devastating is a joke, unless you are comparing him to non-GLs.
SEE is basically just Nihilus with more health and the ability to instakill 2 heros instead of 1. But SLKR and Rey can kill 3 or 4 heros with one move. So SEE's gimmick is nothing special nor devastating.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
I argued that we do not know the mods, and that there are team comps that could work. You apparently think that the player with JML has good mods and the other player cannot have any mods that can make this work..... since we have no information on either side.... what's the point, which is again why I said providing no information makes this misleading. It's a soap box for one side.
You like that, I get it, but that's what makes it misleading. There are no details.
Here's the thing, based on the speed of the SEE, since he's taking two turns to JML's one turn every few cycles, I can also guarantee you that the SEE is god-modded considering the JML and the amount of damage he's doing.
Also, the AOE insta killing 2 toons hardly helped in this instance, or the many many others we've proven in this thread. Should we bring up the list of non-GL teams that can destroy SEE and then argue that he's devastating? Maybe the solo potential of many other toons ruining his ult is what'll make the "bad joke" true. Considering he literally can't do it against many counters.
I understand that there is a lot we don't understand, but miss me with that "there are *no* details" garbage. There are plenty, and once ignoring them made the argument more convenient, you took that route.
The team comps that could work will not include SEE, and that's how its relevant. You're right though, there are comps that could work. Just not SEE. Which is kinda the point.
Looking purely at stats, no, there aren't mods that could make it work. Han would have to have Chewie with him to kill Wat which kills off the healing SEE gets from dead Sith. If anyone was left pre-ult to do damage besides JML, SEE may not even have gotten to his ult without the healing. There is a lot we don't know, but even if we wildly guess to fill in blanks it *still* makes SEE look bad. I don't just "think" the JML has good mods, I know he does by the numbers in the video. That's a mathematical fact based on him regen-ing 250k prot per turn. It's not that hard to see the mods have to be god-tier protection mods.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
Ah yes, the "devastating attack":
Can't charge against a solo toon
Can't charge well against DS teams
Removes survivability
Takes away best move
Caps mastery gain (which is already bad)
Leaves him doing 98k damage even with a 150% bonus
Only instakills two people if one wasn't a GL
Requires linking to do in any reasonable time frame, which can be manipulated by a pre-taunt like JML (who can't insta-die) or KRU (who will be killed and reset the link thus slowing the ult charge)
Doesn't even allow him to kill a Jedi he's built to counter
Does the same damage as other GL's outside the instakill, so if it didn't have the insta built into the move it probably wouldn't do any more than Rey's whirlwind or SLKR's AOE that happen once every two turns
20 turn cooldown can only be lowered by hitting deceived enemies
Loses the ability to apply deceived
Removes three zetas
Takes so long to charge that he is often the last remaining member of his team
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
Ah yes, the "devastating attack":
Can't charge against a solo toon
Can't charge well against DS teams
Removes survivability
Takes away best move
Caps mastery gain (which is already bad)
Leaves him doing 98k damage even with a 150% bonus
Only instakills two people if one wasn't a GL
Requires linking to do in any reasonable time frame, which can be manipulated by a pre-taunt like JML (who can't insta-die) or KRU (who will be killed and reset the link thus slowing the ult charge)
Doesn't even allow him to kill a Jedi he's built to counter
Does the same damage as other GL's outside the instakill, so if it didn't have the insta built into the move it probably wouldn't do any more than Rey's whirlwind or SLKR's AOE that happen once every two turns
20 turn cooldown can only be lowered by hitting deceived enemies
Loses the ability to apply deceived
Removes three zetas
Takes so long to charge that he is often the last remaining member of his team
"Devastating"
Can Nihilus get off 2 or 3 instakills in the same period of time it takes SEE to build up his ultimate and then wait a turn after activtiom before usong his dual instakill?
Maybe someone with an r7 and fast Nihilus can test
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
Actual info: Wat was there. I can see his locked tech icon. The only way to have bonus prot that high is with Bastila lead. I can guarantee two of the characters involved. Anyone else only helps JML's case. Go watch the video again.
And I never said no chance. I said no chance with an SEE team. Big difference, remove the toon with a bad gimmick and you've got a shot.
Oh, so bringing a bad team against certain toons will make a match unbeatable and make another toon seem invincible...... so like I said, a misleading video with no details provided. Got it.
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
Ah yes, the "devastating attack":
Can't charge against a solo toon
Can't charge well against DS teams
Removes survivability
Takes away best move
Caps mastery gain (which is already bad)
Leaves him doing 98k damage even with a 150% bonus
Only instakills two people if one wasn't a GL
Requires linking to do in any reasonable time frame, which can be manipulated by a pre-taunt like JML (who can't insta-die) or KRU (who will be killed and reset the link thus slowing the ult charge)
Doesn't even allow him to kill a Jedi he's built to counter
Does the same damage as other GL's outside the instakill, so if it didn't have the insta built into the move it probably wouldn't do any more than Rey's whirlwind or SLKR's AOE that happen once every two turns
20 turn cooldown can only be lowered by hitting deceived enemies
Loses the ability to apply deceived
Removes three zetas
Takes so long to charge that he is often the last remaining member of his team
"Devastating"
Can Nihilus get off 2 or 3 instakills in the same period of time it takes SEE to build up his ultimate and then wait a turn after activtiom before usong his dual instakill?
Maybe someone with an r7 and fast Nihilus can test
Actually based on speed, Nihilus takes one turn for every SEE's two turns. SEE gains, at best, 10% per enemies turn, which if we assume is another GL means about 2 turns before Nihilus. So it takes, in a perfect world, only 5 turns for Nihilus before SEE has ult out. Nihilus can get the cooldown reduced enough if he's lucky to get one off before SEE ults, and after that it takes at best 10 turns to get SEE going again, which is 5 for Nihilus and Nihilus can crank one off every 5 turns or so. Only if he gets lucky on cooldown reduction. Otherwise the math is static at 8 turns per Annihilate, and 5 turns for every big ult.
So no, Nihilus gets off fewer, but he also has less ways that his can be blocked, since this implies SEE will get max ult charge per turn (impossible) and that he'll always have a deceived enemy to attack and reduce cooldowns post-ult (he won't). Nihilus is static and thus probably better in the long run unless you can guarantee SEE will get going fast with your team comp.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
The only issue with “SEE is faster” is that nihilus has a built in tm gain which revolves around having the rest of the triumvirate.
Ideally 6 turns nihilus could get 2 Annihlates off provided he gets retribution and can purge buffs enough to reset his drain fast enough to do it every activation.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
The only issue with “SEE is faster” is that nihilus has a built in tm gain which revolves around having the rest of the triumvirate.
Ideally 6 turns nihilus could get 2 Annihlates off provided he gets retribution and can purge buffs enough to reset his drain fast enough to do it every activation.
True, I was doing basic math in a vacuum. Nihilus' numbers could be improved greatly, and the speed of the SEE in question would need to have good mods to be almost double Nihilus. So yes, in a Triumvirate team with good luck on CD manipulation, Nihilus is gonna crank out several annihilates in the time it takes SEE to get one ult and cooldown the move.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know the argument was about survivability, I thought we were comparing devastating attackers?
Obviously Nihilus dies faster. But in terms of being a "devastating attacker" given an equal number of turns, Nihilus devastates moreso than SEE. Obviously against another GL, the superior attacker is a GL, that's just stupid to imply becuase Nihilus can't 1 v 5 Rey or JML, that makes SEE a devastating attacker. It has nothing to do with it.
Although on a less hostile note, I do wonder how easy it would be to do that, given that you could compare them on the same team with Triumvirate under SEE. It actually wouldn't be too hard to test.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.
Okay then here, I fixed it. "If only the devs with a solid test environment and plenty of suggestions from the thread, or the mod with a high level account who regularly checks the thread, could do some of the testing that they seem to want so bad."
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.
I’ve heard that before and I believe you, but surely the devs have a better option than us (wait for energy refreshes in arena to test characters).
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.
Nihilus could and would get off more insta kills in a match then SEE so saying he’s a devastating attacker because he kills 1-2 characters with one move is a joke.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
This isn’t a sandbox complaint as much as it is frustration that it seems like such a responsibility is put on players, instead of enjoying the game, to do this work for CG.
Meanwhile, let's ignore that SLKR, Rey, and JML have instakills that can kill up to 4 enemy heros at once, but the devastating attacker SEE can instakill 2.
With SLKR, he is billed as an Immense Attacker, which is a step above a Devastating attacker so that's at least somewhat understandable. 🙄
Now if only we had any relevant information on this battle....
Yeah that would be cool. Not my video.
Possible bug or unintended interaction? Maybe send to devs.
That's what I was about to do, but realizing it has nothing to work from makes it less than helpful in identifying anything about what is going on.
You can tell exactly what's happening. JML at r7 has over 50k protection, plus 70% from unique, making it 85k and then modding it right, you can easily surpass 140k protection plus Bastila lead which pushes it to somewhere over 280k bonus protection. Granted that bonus protection can't be leeched by SEE, and the Bastila lead makes an excess of 200k bonus protection on JML easy, it's obvious why he's so beefy. Add to that Wat's shield tech, which regens 30% of the protection every turn, JML regens and outlives SEE's noodle arm damage.
So bringing in Han to help neutralize the WAT strategy would be a good plan right?
For a single bonus turn that Wat gets, yes. But if Wat is fast enough and the first hit doesn't kill him, and JML gets Efflux off first, it won't change anything about the outcome. Just delay it a turn. Not to mention removing a sith tank from SEE's side will only weaken him by removing the healing when Han dies that would have been there otherwise. It's a trade-off with exactly one turn of reward unless the JML team was modded like trash.
Given this is assuming Wat has the zeta, but still.
So your saying that mods would help with the strategy to counter the WAT strategy?
Actually no I'm not. I'm saying the JML team would have to be modded poorly. JML will go before Han get's a second turn, stunning or AB'ing Han. All the stun from Han will do is stop the bonus turn that Wat gets, since the zeta does the same thing to him as Han shooting first. SEE can't kill Wat on his own, so Wat will get a turn next regardless. Then the tech goes on Luke and it's over. Mods on SEE's team won't do anything unless Han can crank out enough damage with his basic shot going first to kill Wat in one turn. It's nearly impossible, and only possible with god mods on your team and garbage on JML. Which judging by JML, the mods were on point. There was literally no way SEE could win that fight.
Even the speed boost from SEE lead wouldn't help Han catch JML because the fastest JML's are 572 and SEE lead only boosts sith allies speed. Han has no chance to kill Wat beyond that first bonus turn, which means the round is over after the first hit if Wat is still alive.
That's dome.good theory crafting, if only we had some of that actual information to discuss these points in more detail, but since we do not, I stand by the fact that there are strategies to counter that strategy.
Sure. No chance. Got it.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.
Okay then here, I fixed it. "If only the devs with a solid test environment and plenty of suggestions from the thread, or the mod with a high level account who regularly checks the thread, could do some of the testing that they seem to want so bad."
I dont have SEE, or access to the test environment. Asking the players in the evaluation group they spoke about, doesnt seem like the best idea right now as they would have been involved in the original testing that some here have been questioning.
Replies
When the whole thread is about SEE, then it's not misleading when the video has SEE in it. He's the bad team. So.....nope, wrong again. And the details about the team SEE had trouble killing are provided and are relevant. And if you plan to tell me that a toon like JML with 521 speed and a Wat tech with Bastila bonus prot is gonna lose to any other team comp? He takes more turns than anyone on SEE's side, and with every turn was gaining 250k protection back. So unless the toons in scattered turns before JML kills them can do more than 250k damage under SEE lead, they would still not stand a chance. SEE was the weak link, that's the relevant details. JML with Wat and Bastila and good mods was the opponent. That's a detail. Tell me a comp that can outspeed a 371 Wat and a 521 JML and deal enough damage under Bastila lead to kill JML through an autotaunt thanks to Bastila. Those are the details.
ALSO the damage of SEE being 98k is a detail. Do some math and see that it's relevant to SEE needing buffed, because he should be doing damage with double his mastery post-ult and 150% bonus against Jedi to offset JML's 30% reduction. With crits.
Oh also, everyone arguing about the Wat comp, we're all ignoring the possibility that Wat lives long enough or moves fast enough to get off a second tech on Bastila or (if it's not 3v3) any other assisting character who could destroy with tech, like JKL with the weapons mod to gain 15% tm for every turn the enemy takes and ignore defense. Even putting that on Bastila is huge because she can dispel faster, or stun more often. If Wat doesn't die fast, that comp becomes even harder to beat. Which means the SEE played it as right as possible by killing off everyone else fast, and still couldn't kill JML.
And if you can admit it's a bad team without even seeing anyone but SEE on that team, then you're acknowledging the problem. He's a bad character. Wanna debate if the other GL's or even other meta teams would ever get stalemated this badly? SLKR wouldn't win against Luke anyway, so no stalemate there, but he could kill off Wat with Han taking away the bonus turn because he outspeeds JML with good mods and would be able to control the round and AOE out of the gate. Rey outspeeds everyone with good mods and could sudden whirlwind often enough to kill Wat, especially with a team going after Luke efflux, like Resistance or Jawas even. They would dip low enough to reset whirlwind cooldown practically every turn. Wat wouldn't get the tech off there.
There are comps and counters to this, the problem isn't that Wat with Bastila and JML is unbeatable, it's that SEE can't do anything about it regardless of who's on his team, making him the weak link involved.
It is misleading, it provides no details and is a situation where that team shouldne be used because it seems to be a known quantity that this is a result, unless you have the better setup on your side.
So putting that here is misleading. Showing that as a example of why he should be buffed provides no proof of that, and fails to show anything other than a solid counter using good strategy on one side and bad strategy on the other.
Ah, so first you tried to argue that there are mods or team comps that can counter it so it couldn't be that bad. But now you concede that it's bad and suddenly the video is irrelevant and bad gameplay?
The great and powerful "Devastating attacker" was dealing damage that couldn't even get past passive prot regen from a character that's been in the game for over a year. It's relevant in terms of stats and character description even if it was a guaranteed loss/tie. Also, why is there a guaranteed loss/tie comp of SEE vs Jedi? Doesn't his kit scream "anti-jedi?" How could he lose this? How could his 150% bonus plus crits only do 98k?
Also, the relevance is that we now know there is a comp for every single GL that can destroy SEE or at least bring him to a draw. His only benefit before was beating JML. Now he can't even do that, it's a draw.
There are parts of it that help prove he should be buffed even if the comp was unwinnable. You can't ignore the stats, or the fact that his anti-Jedi synergy does jack **** against Jedi.
To add on, are we ignoring all the details it does provide? Saying that it provides no details is ignorant at this point, there is an entire pages worth of replies on why that's false.
Also we know for a fact the SEE is reliced, that's a relevant detail.
All things lead to SLKR
Just don't get the new GLs, they don't do anything the old ones don't already do and in fact are worse in other areas, most notably raids.
And if you got them, well just move on and don't pre farm or spend on anything until you have seen it in the wild for a month or so. CG has clearly moved on from a dominant new meta phase. They are on the, gear the new Baby Yoda IG88 as fast as you can phase now.
If you are going to circle back to the bad joke, you are saying you would not call an AOE that inst kills 2 toons is not a devastating attack?
I argued that we do not know the mods, and that there are team comps that could work. You apparently think that the player with JML has good mods and the other player cannot have any mods that can make this work..... since we have no information on either side.... what's the point, which is again why I said providing no information makes this misleading. It's a soap box for one side.
You like that, I get it, but that's what makes it misleading. There are no details.
1 year ago, I'd say yes. But in the current Meta, no, definitely not.
Rey and Kylo's AOEs can wipe out an entire team, they get to use them much quicker, and multiple times. We've even seen video evidence of JML wiping out an entire team too with the Jericho squad comp.
SEE's ultimate AoE takes longer to use, can be used only once realistically (twice if extremely lucky), only insta kills 2 linked heros (not an entire team). Yeah, it can wipe out an entire team of Jedi sometimes, but that's it. Rey and Kylo don't discriminate.
As it stands now, SEE is the worst attacker of the 4 GLs, so to call him devastating is a joke, unless you are comparing him to non-GLs.
SEE is basically just Nihilus with more health and the ability to instakill 2 heros instead of 1. But SLKR and Rey can kill 3 or 4 heros with one move. So SEE's gimmick is nothing special nor devastating.
Here's the thing, based on the speed of the SEE, since he's taking two turns to JML's one turn every few cycles, I can also guarantee you that the SEE is god-modded considering the JML and the amount of damage he's doing.
Also, the AOE insta killing 2 toons hardly helped in this instance, or the many many others we've proven in this thread. Should we bring up the list of non-GL teams that can destroy SEE and then argue that he's devastating? Maybe the solo potential of many other toons ruining his ult is what'll make the "bad joke" true. Considering he literally can't do it against many counters.
I understand that there is a lot we don't understand, but miss me with that "there are *no* details" garbage. There are plenty, and once ignoring them made the argument more convenient, you took that route.
The team comps that could work will not include SEE, and that's how its relevant. You're right though, there are comps that could work. Just not SEE. Which is kinda the point.
Looking purely at stats, no, there aren't mods that could make it work. Han would have to have Chewie with him to kill Wat which kills off the healing SEE gets from dead Sith. If anyone was left pre-ult to do damage besides JML, SEE may not even have gotten to his ult without the healing. There is a lot we don't know, but even if we wildly guess to fill in blanks it *still* makes SEE look bad. I don't just "think" the JML has good mods, I know he does by the numbers in the video. That's a mathematical fact based on him regen-ing 250k prot per turn. It's not that hard to see the mods have to be god-tier protection mods.
Ah yes, the "devastating attack":
Can't charge against a solo toon
Can't charge well against DS teams
Removes survivability
Takes away best move
Caps mastery gain (which is already bad)
Leaves him doing 98k damage even with a 150% bonus
Only instakills two people if one wasn't a GL
Requires linking to do in any reasonable time frame, which can be manipulated by a pre-taunt like JML (who can't insta-die) or KRU (who will be killed and reset the link thus slowing the ult charge)
Doesn't even allow him to kill a Jedi he's built to counter
Does the same damage as other GL's outside the instakill, so if it didn't have the insta built into the move it probably wouldn't do any more than Rey's whirlwind or SLKR's AOE that happen once every two turns
20 turn cooldown can only be lowered by hitting deceived enemies
Loses the ability to apply deceived
Removes three zetas
Takes so long to charge that he is often the last remaining member of his team
"Devastating"
Can Nihilus get off 2 or 3 instakills in the same period of time it takes SEE to build up his ultimate and then wait a turn after activtiom before usong his dual instakill?
Maybe someone with an r7 and fast Nihilus can test
Actually based on speed, Nihilus takes one turn for every SEE's two turns. SEE gains, at best, 10% per enemies turn, which if we assume is another GL means about 2 turns before Nihilus. So it takes, in a perfect world, only 5 turns for Nihilus before SEE has ult out. Nihilus can get the cooldown reduced enough if he's lucky to get one off before SEE ults, and after that it takes at best 10 turns to get SEE going again, which is 5 for Nihilus and Nihilus can crank one off every 5 turns or so. Only if he gets lucky on cooldown reduction. Otherwise the math is static at 8 turns per Annihilate, and 5 turns for every big ult.
So no, Nihilus gets off fewer, but he also has less ways that his can be blocked, since this implies SEE will get max ult charge per turn (impossible) and that he'll always have a deceived enemy to attack and reduce cooldowns post-ult (he won't). Nihilus is static and thus probably better in the long run unless you can guarantee SEE will get going fast with your team comp.
Ideally 6 turns nihilus could get 2 Annihlates off provided he gets retribution and can purge buffs enough to reset his drain fast enough to do it every activation.
That would be an interesting comparison to show the dev team.
Can you show nihilus getting 3 or more insta kills against a Rey or JML team.
True, I was doing basic math in a vacuum. Nihilus' numbers could be improved greatly, and the speed of the SEE in question would need to have good mods to be almost double Nihilus. So yes, in a Triumvirate team with good luck on CD manipulation, Nihilus is gonna crank out several annihilates in the time it takes SEE to get one ult and cooldown the move.
It’s very possible to come up with legitimate conclusions by just looking at known character stats and abilities. We don’t have access to a sandbox mode, unlike CG, yet you are here asking us to provide all the work. You’ve asserted that there are counters with equal or less evidence than the people you are arguing against.
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know the argument was about survivability, I thought we were comparing devastating attackers?
Obviously Nihilus dies faster. But in terms of being a "devastating attacker" given an equal number of turns, Nihilus devastates moreso than SEE. Obviously against another GL, the superior attacker is a GL, that's just stupid to imply becuase Nihilus can't 1 v 5 Rey or JML, that makes SEE a devastating attacker. It has nothing to do with it.
Although on a less hostile note, I do wonder how easy it would be to do that, given that you could compare them on the same team with Triumvirate under SEE. It actually wouldn't be too hard to test.
If only we had a sandbox to test these things in..
You can go watch some of the old game changer videos. The test environment is not a sandbox, no one has access to a sandbox. Not sure where you got that from.
We dont need a sandbox to theory craft, but if no one cares to prove this it will just be written off as one of those things people say....
Here I was thinking that players wanted a change and showing nihilus vs the same team as see getting more insta kills would be good evidence for some of these changes.... but never mind, instead we should shift this conversation to a sandbox mode complaint...sounds good.
Okay then here, I fixed it. "If only the devs with a solid test environment and plenty of suggestions from the thread, or the mod with a high level account who regularly checks the thread, could do some of the testing that they seem to want so bad."
I’ve heard that before and I believe you, but surely the devs have a better option than us (wait for energy refreshes in arena to test characters).
Yes, after doing math to actually mathematically prove that it would happen, we the players should be required to spend refreshes and crystals to prove it. Not only that, but the "player" who seems most concerned with this testing is you, and you haven't volunteered to do any yet.
This isn’t a sandbox complaint as much as it is frustration that it seems like such a responsibility is put on players, instead of enjoying the game, to do this work for CG.
With SLKR, he is billed as an Immense Attacker, which is a step above a Devastating attacker so that's at least somewhat understandable. 🙄
I dont have SEE, or access to the test environment. Asking the players in the evaluation group they spoke about, doesnt seem like the best idea right now as they would have been involved in the original testing that some here have been questioning.