Chaze Breaks Tactical Part of Game - Don't Nerf, but Let's Learn some Lessons

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JohnnySteelAlpha
2794 posts Member
edited May 2017
Had to post this as I was inspired today by the fact that ... even winning vs. Chaze now is getting really monotonous. It's been fun killing Chaze, but the flow of the battle is awful and even beating them now brings no joy. Don't get me wrong, I like all the turns in battles today as compared to the Poe days, but the constant taunts pulling focus fire, the foresight spam from GK, the heal / equalize from Chirrut bringing near dead characters to near full health requiring more attacks to kill, the constant counter attacks...it's just a bad fight.

The lesson part though comes in that they break the tactical game - that's the element of the game where have to choose characters to matchup properly with the opponent. I'll give a specific example comparing Troopers and using a good, but not the best, team to face in arena: Chaze + Wiggs + R2.

Now, facing this team you want the following:

1. Pre-taunt for the triple shot
2. Passive mid-round taunter to take the Chirrut bombs after Wiggs triple and the heavy single shot from Biggs and Wedge
3. Healer for the damage dealt out
4. Heavy damage attacker to actually kill stuff
5. An AOE enemy buff remover for the R2 smoke screen so you aren't pinned on Baze
6. Cleanse / ten up to remove the burn / stun and / or prevent burn / stun from R2

These are the tactical considerations you need to evaluate when putting a team together.

Now let's look at Troopers as an example and compare them to Chaze and what they do:

Snowtrooper: Satisfies (4) above
Shoretrooper: Satisfies (1) and (3) above ... and partially solves (2) with Stormtrooper
Stormtrooper: Along with Shore, kinda satisfied (2) above in that between the 2 you can have good mid-round taunt capability for damage cover
Deathtrooper: Satisfies (5) above as well as (4) with the deathmark
Veers: Satisfies (4) above with the assist call and contingently he handles (3) if you kill something

So between 5 characters, no one does 6, only generally each one has a role, maybe 2 or so at most - Shore is pretty balanced in that he has multiple skills, but is slow and also low damage, so he's a tactical tool with tradeoffs.

Now let's look at 1-6 above through the Chaze lens:

Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)

That's as clear an example as I can make on why a Chaze abomination shouldn't be introduced in to the game again. They break the actual "game" of GoH in that you don't have to think about constructing a team in any specific manner relative to your opponent. They actually outskill all 5 recently revamped troopers. Troopers should be a team they look to create more of - different skills, working together, needs tactical decisions to be made in order to matchup to the opponent's strength and weaknesses.

Again to reiterate, don't nerf Chaze - they are not unbeatable - but let's work on making this a game again that involves tradeoffs when selecting teams and heroes relative to your opponent.

Replies

  • +1000!
  • Another nerf thread :wink:
    I know that wasn't your intention but this is all that many will take from this.
    Or a hate Chaze post :)
  • Courier
    120 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Why don't nerf them, JSA? You always reasonable but i failed to see your reason on this one.

    They're unbeatable, sure. But that is not the reason why they are gamebreaking, its the multiple kits they bring when paired together brought us to this "why bother using 5 toon that synergized with each other as a team to win when you can use chaze that can do better than anyone and fill the last 3 spots with anything for sneeze and giggles?" state of the game.

    I'm all for returning the game to the pre chaze condition but help me understand on this one.
  • Reyalp
    738 posts Member
    I would give them both a smashing with the nerf bat and just pay out some crystals / comp as recompense and admit they didn't think the mechanics of Chaze through in respect of the wider game and the future.

    The outrage would die down eventually
  • Olddumper
    2829 posts Member
    This was well put. It's not that they are tough to beat. It's just that they are vanilla ice cream. 6 months later and you can still just drop them in any old squad you want.
  • Another nerf thread :wink:
    I know that wasn't your intention but this is all that many will take from this.
    Or a hate Chaze post :)

    Absolutely don't want a nerf! It's totally unnecessary. I just enjoy the tactical part of the game and constructing teams and Chaze breaks that and condenses variety. Others will disagree, they like everything all in one combo, don't have to switch mods vs. opponent because you have to switch squads, or don't have to build multiple squads with multiple viable mod sets, they hold through all iterations of meta... - there's a ton of efficiency gain by using Chaze. There's huge benefits and "investing" in Chaze will actually save you a lot of work, effort and time / $ cost as a result. There's a viable argument for more Chaze types down the road, but that drops a deuce on the actual game part of the ... game.
  • Nikoms565
    11076 posts Member
    Agree 1000000%. Putting Chaze in your lineup is a no brainer, as they are clearly the best tank and attacker in the game - and there is no downside - no trade off.
    In game name: Lucas Gregory - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie

    In game guild: TNR Uprising
    I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
    *This space left intentionally blank*
  • SnakesOnAPlane
    3836 posts Member
    edited May 2017
    Chaze = #TimeToNerf this OP toon!
    SnakesOnAPlane
  • evanbio
    1505 posts Member
    I like the logical argument you make here for Chaze. I also like that you aren't asking for a change to them, but are suggesting in the future that new characters/updates don't give 2 toons such an overwhelming advantage over others.
  • RacerDejak
    3203 posts Member
    Is that because the imperial trooper is sucks against them.. and they're like.. everywhere :(
  • Courier wrote: »
    Why don't nerf them, JSA? You always reasonable but i failed to see your reason on this one.

    They're unbeatable, sure. But that is not the reason why they are gamebreaking, its the multiple kits they bring when paired together brought us to this "why bother using 5 toon that synergized with each other as a team to win when you can use chaze that can do better than anyone and fill the last 3 spots with anything for sneeze and giggles?" state of the game.

    I'm all for returning the game to the pre chaze condition but help me understand on this one.

    I think nerf should only be done in severe circumstances where it creates truly unbeatable heroes WITHOUT also having those heroes - basically forcing mirror fights or close to it (shuffling 1 or 2 heroes if the core 2/3 is necessary really isn't variety). Right now the Chaze / R2 / GK + x teams are pretty heavy on my LB and have been for a few days. DN is a common 5th - holds well on D and many players have a hard time or flat out can't beat it. These are players with zDM at their disposal, GK - veterans on a Nov '15 shard that have $ and aren't scrubs - not Krakens but very viable players. I'm beating it though at a 70%+ rate with zDV, SiT, SA, EP, and DT ... so not even using any of the top 5 most used characters on GG and not using an OP maul leader or a zKylo / zSO unkillable type toon. I couldn't in good conscious say it should be nerfed if it can lose at a high rate to that - I don't think that's fair to players and nerfing should only be in extreme circumstances.
  • I loved the balanced look you had for handling chaze. However I feel that you missed a possible criterion, TM Manipulation. I could have the hardest hitting toon in the world but if zader and his cohorts are able to keep removing TM it will never go. While I agree that the passive from Chirrut that gives the Heal over time can somewhat negate the damage it is the utility of Reducion or increase that makes things powerful as well.
  • Sarryen
    474 posts Member
    @JohnnySteelAIpha i agree with your general point but I think you are mixing up the terms 'strategy' (the design of your team before you enter battle) and 'tactics' (how they are used once in the battle).

    But I agree with your theme and i would argue that chaze actually mess up both the 'strategic' (planning) and the 'tactical' (in battle gameplay) elements of the game.
  • RacerDejak wrote: »
    Is that because the imperial trooper is sucks against them.. and they're like.. everywhere :(

    It's tricky on strategy vs. tactics and applying to a game the terms. I look at strategy as the larger overall goal and how I will achieve that: Goal is I want to win and what main method will I use to accomplish that - TM removal, tanking / taunting, heal, heavy / fast DPS glass cannons etc. The tactical part is how I deploy my resources / toons to accomplish the broader goal and put them together as a unit to solve my opponent's puzzle.
  • RacerDejak
    3203 posts Member
    RacerDejak wrote: »
    Is that because the imperial trooper is sucks against them.. and they're like.. everywhere :(

    It's tricky on strategy vs. tactics and applying to a game the terms. I look at strategy as the larger overall goal and how I will achieve that: Goal is I want to win and what main method will I use to accomplish that - TM removal, tanking / taunting, heal, heavy / fast DPS glass cannons etc. The tactical part is how I deploy my resources / toons to accomplish the broader goal and put them together as a unit to solve my opponent's puzzle.

    They're still beatable tho, to break their annoying chain.. but maybe have to change the roster to achieve that. Human is always better that AI.
  • Arimanius
    165 posts Member
    Best post in a while, I just hope Devs read this, I hate Chaze with all my soul and I personally would love to see them get nerfed cause it's just kills anything this game has to offer when thinking about PVP, no strategy, no tactics, no builds according to the situation, no decisions to make, nothing, but even if they do not get nerfed I just hope devs don't make the same mistakes they did with both of them, not even with the toons they're gonna bring with the next movie (cause it seems they get too excited with those and get carried away xD). So let's learn a lesson from this and don't make the same mistake again. Ty
  • The problem with this ideea is that if Chaze is not toned down all the balanced teams they will add/ rework from now on will suffer the fate of Phoenix and Troopers. Like one poster above said, What is the point in running a full squad when you can just add Chaze to do all those squads do + the 3 strongest standalone toons?
  • Zooey
    1607 posts Member
    Oh I'm sure the devs know and understand the monster they created. But what's done is done and their hands are tied. Best thing they can do now is release more counters that can edge Chaze out of the meta by holding versus them on defense while not being so multifaceted or having such overpowered skill sets that they discourage diversity. Lofty goal to be sure but R2 shows that they are creative enough to come up with reasonable solutions.
  • Courier
    120 posts Member
    Courier wrote: »
    Why don't nerf them, JSA? You always reasonable but i failed to see your reason on this one.

    They're unbeatable, sure. But that is not the reason why they are gamebreaking, its the multiple kits they bring when paired together brought us to this "why bother using 5 toon that synergized with each other as a team to win when you can use chaze that can do better than anyone and fill the last 3 spots with anything for sneeze and giggles?" state of the game.

    I'm all for returning the game to the pre chaze condition but help me understand on this one.

    I think nerf should only be done in severe circumstances where it creates truly unbeatable heroes WITHOUT also having those heroes - basically forcing mirror fights or close to it (shuffling 1 or 2 heroes if the core 2/3 is necessary really isn't variety). Right now the Chaze / R2 / GK + x teams are pretty heavy on my LB and have been for a few days. DN is a common 5th - holds well on D and many players have a hard time or flat out can't beat it. These are players with zDM at their disposal, GK - veterans on a Nov '15 shard that have $ and aren't scrubs - not Krakens but very viable players. I'm beating it though at a 70%+ rate with zDV, SiT, SA, EP, and DT ... so not even using any of the top 5 most used characters on GG and not using an OP maul leader or a zKylo / zSO unkillable type toon. I couldn't in good conscious say it should be nerfed if it can lose at a high rate to that - I don't think that's fair to players and nerfing should only be in extreme circumstances.

    i see. The bolded part is where chase is running towards to. Most ppl saying chaze is beatable easily because they use chaze to beat it. Few use different toons, even that is also just a few toons to select.

    Say your suggestion is applied, and it worked. There is another problem, they will be continued to prevail with new toons that supports them. R2 already bolster them to a certain degree, what will stop upcoming new/reworked toons from supporting them even further?
  • At this point I don't think that they can find a solution that can beat Chaze and not became a new meta monster on their own. They failed at first with Krennic( to weak), then with the sith (to strong) and after the sith with every single toon they released (way,way underpowered and a lot less versatile). Unless they take some drastic measures, like every heal will turn into damage, every toon they will release will be lacking any reason to be farmed and used. Beside raids that is..
  • Omeah
    932 posts Member
    Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo
  • RacerDejak
    3203 posts Member
    Omeah wrote: »
    Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo

    Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs. :lol:
  • Omeah
    932 posts Member
    RacerDejak wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo

    Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs. :lol:

    Wiggs, Drennic, K2 and Cassian all have great synergy, but none of these duos have so many stuff as Chaze
  • Absolutely agree that this is where the strategic part of the game fails

    "Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
    Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)"

    Some factions STILL do not have a taunt, a cleanse, an enemy dispel or a combination of the above. These 2 characters however have access to nearly every strategic element in the game.

    FO has no way to interact with enemy buffs and have somehwta limited cleanses, Clones cant taunt, night sisters...god help them they have none of the above, ewoks have no taunt and a limited dispel, empire lack a cleanse, sith have a circumstantial cleanse with oppress........ETC

    Baze and Chirrut have all of the above with zero faction requirements.
  • RacerDejak
    3203 posts Member
    Omeah wrote: »
    RacerDejak wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo

    Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs. :lol:

    Wiggs, Drennic, K2 and Cassian all have great synergy, but none of these duos have so many stuff as Chaze

    Disagree.. at their golden era, they technically can beat everyone. Drennic, k2 cassian is so-so bcause they have same era with chaze and simply chaze outshine them.
  • Omeah
    932 posts Member
    RacerDejak wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    RacerDejak wrote: »
    Omeah wrote: »
    Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo

    Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs. :lol:

    Wiggs, Drennic, K2 and Cassian all have great synergy, but none of these duos have so many stuff as Chaze

    Disagree.. at their golden era, they technically can beat everyone. Drennic, k2 cassian is so-so bcause they have same era with chaze and simply chaze outshine them.

    Just count the stuff they can do:
    Big dmg, heal to full, equalize health, cleanse, tenacity up, taunt, counter, dispel x 2, inflict basically any debuff (Baze turning opposites)...
    Is there any duo who has even the same number of utilities (not even mentioning the qualities)? It's too much stuff for any 2 character in any era
  • Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
  • AnnerDoon
    1162 posts Member
    Well, it's a good thing we get to use more than two characters. Lol
  • Dave011679 wrote: »
    Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.

    I think this is a really great ideea.
  • Omeah
    932 posts Member
    Dave011679 wrote: »
    Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.

    Great idea!
This discussion has been closed.