Absolutely agree that this is where the strategic part of the game fails
"Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)"
Some factions STILL do not have a taunt, a cleanse, an enemy dispel or a combination of the above. These 2 characters however have access to nearly every strategic element in the game.
FO has no way to interact with enemy buffs and have somehwta limited cleanses, Clones cant taunt, night sisters...god help them they have none of the above, ewoks have no taunt and a limited dispel, empire lack a cleanse, sith have a circumstantial cleanse with oppress........ETC
Baze and Chirrut have all of the above with zero faction requirements.
I think Ewoks should be #1 on that list
Chirpa zeta: "Buff gains, TM gain, TMR cannot be prevented. +30% dmg +15% TM. Ewoks are immune to all effects of attacks (besides damage) while stealthed. Ewoks gain 10 speed for each other Ewok."
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
Great idea!
I think this is the best idea I've seen on the "nerf-side" of the conversation to be honest. How would that look though?
As an aside, GK+Zarris satisfies 2,3,4 and doubles down on 6 in addition to providing additional survivability in terms of foresight. Granted they require a Zeta, which Chaze does not, but I frankly find them just as annoying to deal with since the auto-dispell can't really be avoided. Super pairs seem to be the MO at the moment...
Yes, it's been clear from the beginning that Chaze were exaggerated and over tuned toons. I'm sure it started as a marketing ploy for the new SW universe Disney wants to create, but in some sense of the word, they "ruined" the game over some marketing. It works for Disney because you can't get around them in arena shards anymore, it seems like the majority of people are running them. So as far as marketing, they're in your face constantly in game and in forums.
I am also hesitant to say nerf, but it should at least be considered. And send out crystals to those that have them. Either way you slice it, it all ends bad for players. And that's the unfortunate part, the only real losers are the players if anything is done about them. Disney gets their marketing, EA/CG continues to rake in cash because they are scary efficient at that and it's just another day at the dev studios. But players get to swim in all the muck.
Thank you OP for outlining the topic in a way that doesn't get you shouted down as a 'whiny nerf herder'.
Their OPness is so blatant, I wouldn't have thought so many players would fight so hard to defend it. But look at the past threads...
I really like the nerf suggestion of keeping their current performance through team synergy to keep them from being a 1 size fits all no-brainer choice.
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
This is a good idea just require a 3rd toon to have them keep doing what they are doing.
The real answer is the tarkin rework needs to counter Chaze. Power creep is the only way from here. Tarkin should have a single move that Cleanses his team, Dispells the enemy, and a single reactor ignition deathstar AOE that does unavoidable big damage (15K +) tripled against rebels. And that still won't be OP compared to Chaze.
☮ Consular ☮American Rebel Rebel Force (Endor)JedhaYavin IV
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
Agreed - Outside of Chaze, the other part of the game is "Protect the DN" but clearly the best way to protect DN is with Chaze and GK.
Still, new Team is likely to just be Jyn Lead, Chaze, GK, and R2/DN so, ultimately, what does it do?
OP has it best -- no more duo's that can do it all, plop down in ANY team comp, and have no weaknesses. IDK, from a Dev & marketing point of view... I mean, it has to be frustrating to release new toons and people take one look and say, "Eh, nah, Chaze does all that"
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
+1
This has to be the option if they don't plainly nerf them
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
+1
This has to be the option if they don't plainly nerf them
The problem is....You already do get the maximum results of Chaze with Jyn's lead. The exposes from her lead can be amazing when Baze reveres buffs. And with Chirrut's constant buffs the team is constantly gaining Protection when you have her lead Zeta'd. The thing is that they just do too much elsewhere, but how would they be changed to keep what they are with a Rogue One team, but make them slightly less useful in non-faction teams?
Maybe make Baze's taunt on kill only trigger if a Rebel ally killed them? (That way he still protects chirrut, but only taunts when a rebel ally kills an enemy not just when an enemy dies) You can't really alter the uniques more than that. Looking at Unload, what if the bonus % health damage was 5% health for each living rebel ally? If you're running Chaze that's still 10% of their health if they're not buffed and another 10% for empire enemies. If you're running a full Rebel team that's the full 25% for each of those.
For Chirrut, what if he gave non-debuffed Rebel allies Tenacity up, and non-debuffed other allies just have their health equalized? Tenacity Up is one of the most powerful buffs to have active, and would be better to have that an in-faction buff imo. You could also change Strength of Purpose to deal 5% more damage for each buffed Rebel ally instead of just each buffed ally, but I think changing the stuff above would probably be enough. Either way none of this actually changes the Rogue One team and leaves wiggle room to put in R2 and Wedge and Biggs or other Rebels, but makes Chaze more of a Rebel Faction Powerhouse than simply an all-faction powerhouse.
That's what I would suggest, because I still really like how well a full Rogue One team works, I think they did a really good job designing all of those skills to work well together, but this at least tones down how much use Chaze would get outside of the Rebel faction and provide space for other factions to use full teams again.
Instead of the common "nerf chaze" theme, we scale back their abilities when not under a Jyn lead/Rogue 1 team? I see the frustration of "Chaze and anyone else". Why not make them less viable with "anyone else"? That way it would require more team synergy to get the maximum results of Chaze.
+1
This has to be the option if they don't plainly nerf them
The problem is....You already do get the maximum results of Chaze with Jyn's lead. The exposes from her lead can be amazing when Baze reveres buffs. And with Chirrut's constant buffs the team is constantly gaining Protection when you have her lead Zeta'd. The thing is that they just do too much elsewhere, but how would they be changed to keep what they are with a Rogue One team, but make them slightly less useful in non-faction teams?
Maybe make Baze's taunt on kill only trigger if a Rebel ally killed them? (That way he still protects chirrut, but only taunts when a rebel ally kills an enemy not just when an enemy dies) You can't really alter the uniques more than that. Looking at Unload, what if the bonus % health damage was 5% health for each living rebel ally? If you're running Chaze that's still 10% of their health if they're not buffed and another 10% for empire enemies. If you're running a full Rebel team that's the full 25% for each of those.
For Chirrut, what if he gave non-debuffed Rebel allies Tenacity up, and non-debuffed other allies just have their health equalized? Tenacity Up is one of the most powerful buffs to have active, and would be better to have that an in-faction buff imo. You could also change Strength of Purpose to deal 5% more damage for each buffed Rebel ally instead of just each buffed ally, but I think changing the stuff above would probably be enough. Either way none of this actually changes the Rogue One team and leaves wiggle room to put in R2 and Wedge and Biggs or other Rebels, but makes Chaze more of a Rebel Faction Powerhouse than simply an all-faction powerhouse.
That's what I would suggest, because I still really like how well a full Rogue One team works, I think they did a really good job designing all of those skills to work well together, but this at least tones down how much use Chaze would get outside of the Rebel faction and provide space for other factions to use full teams again.
I agree completely. Is Chaze beatable? Absolutely. Can I beat them nearly every time? Absolutely. But do they simply have too many gimmicks that make facing them annoying? Again, absolutely. They just add more to a team than two characters should
Absolutely agree that this is where the strategic part of the game fails
"Baze: Handles (1) (2) and (5)
Chirrut: Handles (3) (4) and (6)"
Some factions STILL do not have a taunt, a cleanse, an enemy dispel or a combination of the above. These 2 characters however have access to nearly every strategic element in the game.
FO has no way to interact with enemy buffs and have somehwta limited cleanses, Clones cant taunt, night sisters...god help them they have none of the above, ewoks have no taunt and a limited dispel, empire lack a cleanse, sith have a circumstantial cleanse with oppress........ETC
Baze and Chirrut have all of the above with zero faction requirements.
I think Ewoks should be #1 on that list
Chirpa zeta: "Buff gains, TM gain, TMR cannot be prevented. +30% dmg +15% TM. Ewoks are immune to all effects of attacks (besides damage) while stealthed. Ewoks gain 10 speed for each other Ewok."
+1000
I was hoping for a chirpa zeta for Earth day, as they are maybe the most fun faction in the game. You like using them or you like killing them. Maybe both.
The issue that chaze isn't unbeatable, the issue that Chaze is the equivalent of 5 characters, leaving 3 more spots. That basically makes squads with Chaze and 8 man squad
I like the idea of team synergy in this game but I think for too many characters, it's meaningless. For instance if you want to run a team of DN, GK, Chaze and let's say Boba Fett...fine but they won't be able to use their abilities at 100% capacity. I know, it's probably asking too much and I have no idea if that sort of thing would even be feasible but it's just an idea.
The issue that chaze isn't unbeatable, the issue that Chaze is the equivalent of 5 characters, leaving 3 more spots. That basically makes squads with Chaze and 8 man squad
This. In Baze you have a taunting tank as well as an enemy AoE debuffer and a counter attacker who can debuff with his basic - so a tank + support/control. With Chirrut you have an attacker, a healer and cleanser/buffer (and one of the best in the game at all 3 if he's modded correctly and max starred). What only exacerbates the problem is that they have synergy with what is already one of the (if not THE) strongest faction currently in the game - Rebels.
In game name: Lucas Gregory FORMER PLAYER - - - -"Whale blah grump poooop." - Ouchie
In game guild: TNR Uprising I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I think this is the best idea I've seen on the "nerf-side" of the conversation to be honest. How would that look though?
I think this is the best idea too, to make them weaker unless under faction synergy (I honestly think this about a lot of toons right now...) Rex is kinda similar, and over in a clone discussion we're all lamenting how he's the #1 leader in arena and clones are less viable than ever. Kind of ironic, no?
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
You mean make an AOE version of the skill Baze already has? That's what I call Power creep...
Would make Zader teams a helluva a lot of fun though lol
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
You mean make an AOE version of the skill Baze already has? That's what I call Power creep...
Would make Zader teams a helluva a lot of fun though lol
One enemy toon per empire ally? At least it'll make it fall back on using the faction...
Chaze needs an additional toon that will assist against them, Empire needs help, Tarkin was an R1 toon too, and should get some R1 level rework.
Chaze have way too many stuff. Ofc they can be beaten, just like everyone else, but show me ANY other 2 characters that have that much utility. A nerf is needed to tone them down, while still keeping them a top tier duo
Back in the day, there is this duo called wiggs. Nowadays chaze simply is better version that wiggs.
No....wiggs had no utility whatsoever. They did lots of damage, but did nothing else. They are also squishy and can get taken out pretty quickly if you can focus Fire on them
I do not find them all that difficult to beat. Don't think they should be nerfed, major outage.... Especially considering how difficult it is to star up Baze. but it is true that it's a sloppy, disjointed kind of fight..... Kind of like Zaul or double Zeta'd Jedi. Wouldn't be thrilled if every character and team and team became like that.....
As far as needing a (the example of troopers) cleanser (number 6) that largely depends on which team you are up against. There's a possibility Thrawn may end up having a cleanse. This might make Empire pretty OP.
I don't agree that you need a mid game taunter. Shore taunts often. Throw in GK or Rex and you might be good to go...
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
You mean make an AOE version of the skill Baze already has? That's what I call Power creep...
Would make Zader teams a helluva a lot of fun though lol
One enemy toon per empire ally? At least it'll make it fall back on using the faction...
Chaze needs an additional toon that will assist against them, Empire needs help, Tarkin was an R1 toon too, and should get some R1 level rework.
Oh I'm not opposed to giving him some powerful abilities like this, but I'd say just giving him an AOE version of that is much too blatant power creep.
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
You mean make an AOE version of the skill Baze already has? That's what I call Power creep...
Would make Zader teams a helluva a lot of fun though lol
One enemy toon per empire ally? At least it'll make it fall back on using the faction...
Chaze needs an additional toon that will assist against them, Empire needs help, Tarkin was an R1 toon too, and should get some R1 level rework.
Oh I'm not opposed to giving him some powerful abilities like this, but I'd say just giving him an AOE version of that is much too blatant power creep.
Yeah, the problem is that's not really anti-chaze, just anti-buff. That would hose Jedi, triple cleanse, and the new imp. troopers as well, and clones but they're not really viable anyway...
"fixing" Chaze by making another combo (like Zader/Tarkin) just as bad doesn't really help.
It is kinda funny though that JSA was like "this is not a nerf thread" and yet it's kinda turned into a nerf thread...
one simple solution that would break chaze could be done via the tarkin rework - basically give him a special that is the opposite of GK's cleanse. so all enemy buffs are turned into the equivalent debuff (if available).
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
I have no issue with toons having ludicrous abilities compared to other toons in game, but in terms of Star Wars lore I really question who they choose to give those abilities to. Baze & Chirrut are bit players in a 'spin off' movie. Biggs and Wedge are bit players in the OT (Biggs didn't even do anything of note but still gets massive boosts against empire for some reason).
I don't think anyone would be complaining as much if the Chaze combo was on someone like Yoda & Windu (the synergy would be screaming to be called Yondu and we could then have GoTG references all over the place), or Emperor Palp and Vader. But no, these are overlooked to make throwaway characters the cheesiest moves in game. I know this game is in no way lore and doesn't try to be, but it could at least try and stay true to the source material when handing out these kinds of synergies
Replies
I think Ewoks should be #1 on that list
Chirpa zeta: "Buff gains, TM gain, TMR cannot be prevented. +30% dmg +15% TM. Ewoks are immune to all effects of attacks (besides damage) while stealthed. Ewoks gain 10 speed for each other Ewok."
I think this is the best idea I've seen on the "nerf-side" of the conversation to be honest. How would that look though?
As an aside, GK+Zarris satisfies 2,3,4 and doubles down on 6 in addition to providing additional survivability in terms of foresight. Granted they require a Zeta, which Chaze does not, but I frankly find them just as annoying to deal with since the auto-dispell can't really be avoided. Super pairs seem to be the MO at the moment...
I am also hesitant to say nerf, but it should at least be considered. And send out crystals to those that have them. Either way you slice it, it all ends bad for players. And that's the unfortunate part, the only real losers are the players if anything is done about them. Disney gets their marketing, EA/CG continues to rake in cash because they are scary efficient at that and it's just another day at the dev studios. But players get to swim in all the muck.
And chaze recently only got better with R2 release
Their OPness is so blatant, I wouldn't have thought so many players would fight so hard to defend it. But look at the past threads...
I really like the nerf suggestion of keeping their current performance through team synergy to keep them from being a 1 size fits all no-brainer choice.
This is a good idea just require a 3rd toon to have them keep doing what they are doing.
Agreed - Outside of Chaze, the other part of the game is "Protect the DN" but clearly the best way to protect DN is with Chaze and GK.
Still, new Team is likely to just be Jyn Lead, Chaze, GK, and R2/DN so, ultimately, what does it do?
OP has it best -- no more duo's that can do it all, plop down in ANY team comp, and have no weaknesses. IDK, from a Dev & marketing point of view... I mean, it has to be frustrating to release new toons and people take one look and say, "Eh, nah, Chaze does all that"
+1
This has to be the option if they don't plainly nerf them
The problem is....You already do get the maximum results of Chaze with Jyn's lead. The exposes from her lead can be amazing when Baze reveres buffs. And with Chirrut's constant buffs the team is constantly gaining Protection when you have her lead Zeta'd. The thing is that they just do too much elsewhere, but how would they be changed to keep what they are with a Rogue One team, but make them slightly less useful in non-faction teams?
Maybe make Baze's taunt on kill only trigger if a Rebel ally killed them? (That way he still protects chirrut, but only taunts when a rebel ally kills an enemy not just when an enemy dies) You can't really alter the uniques more than that. Looking at Unload, what if the bonus % health damage was 5% health for each living rebel ally? If you're running Chaze that's still 10% of their health if they're not buffed and another 10% for empire enemies. If you're running a full Rebel team that's the full 25% for each of those.
For Chirrut, what if he gave non-debuffed Rebel allies Tenacity up, and non-debuffed other allies just have their health equalized? Tenacity Up is one of the most powerful buffs to have active, and would be better to have that an in-faction buff imo. You could also change Strength of Purpose to deal 5% more damage for each buffed Rebel ally instead of just each buffed ally, but I think changing the stuff above would probably be enough. Either way none of this actually changes the Rogue One team and leaves wiggle room to put in R2 and Wedge and Biggs or other Rebels, but makes Chaze more of a Rebel Faction Powerhouse than simply an all-faction powerhouse.
That's what I would suggest, because I still really like how well a full Rogue One team works, I think they did a really good job designing all of those skills to work well together, but this at least tones down how much use Chaze would get outside of the Rebel faction and provide space for other factions to use full teams again.
+1 this. All of this. I run Chaze but still, this
+1000
I was hoping for a chirpa zeta for Earth day, as they are maybe the most fun faction in the game. You like using them or you like killing them. Maybe both.
This. In Baze you have a taunting tank as well as an enemy AoE debuffer and a counter attacker who can debuff with his basic - so a tank + support/control. With Chirrut you have an attacker, a healer and cleanser/buffer (and one of the best in the game at all 3 if he's modded correctly and max starred). What only exacerbates the problem is that they have synergy with what is already one of the (if not THE) strongest faction currently in the game - Rebels.
In game guild: TNR Uprising
I beat the REAL T7 Yoda (not the nerfed one) and did so before mods were there to help
*This space left intentionally blank*
I think this is the best idea too, to make them weaker unless under faction synergy (I honestly think this about a lot of toons right now...) Rex is kinda similar, and over in a clone discussion we're all lamenting how he's the #1 leader in arena and clones are less viable than ever. Kind of ironic, no?
run this new tarkin under zader and see chaze immediately disappear from the meta... (maybe!)
Would make Zader teams a helluva a lot of fun though lol
One enemy toon per empire ally? At least it'll make it fall back on using the faction...
Chaze needs an additional toon that will assist against them, Empire needs help, Tarkin was an R1 toon too, and should get some R1 level rework.
No....wiggs had no utility whatsoever. They did lots of damage, but did nothing else. They are also squishy and can get taken out pretty quickly if you can focus Fire on them
As far as needing a (the example of troopers) cleanser (number 6) that largely depends on which team you are up against. There's a possibility Thrawn may end up having a cleanse. This might make Empire pretty OP.
I don't agree that you need a mid game taunter. Shore taunts often. Throw in GK or Rex and you might be good to go...
Oh I'm not opposed to giving him some powerful abilities like this, but I'd say just giving him an AOE version of that is much too blatant power creep.
Yeah, the problem is that's not really anti-chaze, just anti-buff. That would hose Jedi, triple cleanse, and the new imp. troopers as well, and clones but they're not really viable anyway...
"fixing" Chaze by making another combo (like Zader/Tarkin) just as bad doesn't really help.
It is kinda funny though that JSA was like "this is not a nerf thread" and yet it's kinda turned into a nerf thread...
This is a brilliant solution.
I don't think anyone would be complaining as much if the Chaze combo was on someone like Yoda & Windu (the synergy would be screaming to be called Yondu and we could then have GoTG references all over the place), or Emperor Palp and Vader. But no, these are overlooked to make throwaway characters the cheesiest moves in game. I know this game is in no way lore and doesn't try to be, but it could at least try and stay true to the source material when handing out these kinds of synergies