thedrjojo it's hard to tell how much of your success though is specifically just vs JML and his vulnerabilities (not to mention how much of it is Sith Empire, which handles Jedi okay but have various points of anti-synergy with SEE).
I agree Rey is underappreciated. For example, ultimate SEE can destroy Rey, but ultimate Rey can also 1-shot SEE. But I think--I don't know for sure, since few are crazy enough to do it--that if you stick Rey with her requirements she'll perform far better than SEE with his Sith requirements. Just as an attempt to see how strong the GL itself is, against a non-Jedi GL like Rey or especially SLKR.
dgree can you show us a Rey 1 shot SEE. This came up a few times after the protection change, but no one has show this happening.
SEE can survive one ultimate against Rey at the end, if he has close to full protection. After that, if you can't kill Rey, the next Ultimate will kill him.
and in all honesty, that sounds like "the correct" situation. it doesn't sound crazy for anyone to not survive 2 ultimates, without something in-between...regen or the like. Generally speaking.
and as I said in my other post, then the verbiage to describe that situation should probably not be "1-shot", but no reason to harp on semantics. sorry.
I guess this is also just a verbiage issue. Saying 1-shot, usually means 1 shot, not after the battle the finishing blow. I would say using the term 1-shot in this context is a little more "hype" than really killing SEE in 1-shot, unless that image started with him with full protection and health, which it may not have.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
The reys on my shard hit an additional 40k ontop of that. Lowest I've seen her ult do is 260k to a single target.
So more like this:
in this battle, SEE did lose, i'm not trying to say he is doing great or anything. But showcasing that he can be modded to do better in this situation.
This is from a friend who has a SEE sitting top 10 most of the time for hours after PO, even holding 1 for a few POs. but we all know shards are very isolated situations. They use SEE to climb too.
His modding wouldn't help there at all. (I've tried all the mod differences. offense set doesn't give him enough damage. CD set is unreliable on all the crit immune targets... and hes WAY to slow to not run a speed set.)
Rey's next move is to put prot up on herself (which can't be prevented even though it should be classified as a buff).
then 1 turn later a WW would drop him low/kill him or she would tank him out to another Ult and its GG. I know this is what happened because thats how it even goes on offense.
I guess this is also just a verbiage issue. Saying 1-shot, usually means 1 shot, not after the battle the finishing blow. I would say using the term 1-shot in this context is a little more "hype" than really killing SEE in 1-shot, unless that image started with him with full protection and health, which it may not have.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions. he did have full health and around 3/4 protection. this SEE seems to be modded differently than others talk about with a huge focus on health. but he also regens full health and protection when a sith ally dies, so its not so crazy to expect him to be pretty high up there in those pools as its approaching a 1v1 situation.
The team I saw, very specific, I know, not saying its end all be all, is doing well on defense, which usually means it will be much better under player control. so I thought I would share what i saw, since there was no "1-shot", and it seemed to play well.
I dont know the players experience vs SLKR, but the LS seem to be no issue.
seems to be the standard Trio, and WAT, or other slight variants, but the key seems to be SEE, Treya, DN. then other variations on the last 2. again shard dependent and whatnot. (not saying end all be all, and not my testing so very limited info at the moment)
I guess this is also just a verbiage issue. Saying 1-shot, usually means 1 shot, not after the battle the finishing blow. I would say using the term 1-shot in this context is a little more "hype" than really killing SEE in 1-shot, unless that image started with him with full protection and health, which it may not have.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions. he did have full health and around 3/4 protection. this SEE seems to be modded differently than others talk about with a huge focus on health. but he also regens full health and protection when a sith ally dies, so its not so crazy to expect him to be pretty high up there in those pools as its approaching a 1v1 situation.
The team I saw, very specific, I know, not saying its end all be all, is doing well on defense, which usually means it will be much better under player control. so I thought I would share what i saw, since there was no "1-shot", and it seemed to play well.
I dont know the players experience vs SLKR, but the LS seem to be no issue.
seems to be the standard Trio, and WAT, or other slight variants, but the key seems to be SEE, Treya, DN. then other variations on the last 2. again shard dependent and whatnot. (not saying end all be all, and not my testing so very limited info at the moment)
The reason why treya is used is because AB completely SCREWS SEE harder then any of the other GLs. (SEE does no damage at all with his basics.) Take SEE and make it so his 3rd turn, minimum, is when he can even link. This is another reason why speed is used so he can at least attempt to outrun the other gls (who are faster to begin with) so he attempt to get link up.
DN is used cause the AI (specifically JKR and gas) hard target the crap outta treya which feeds DN health/TM.
Which leaves the +2. Normally sion (complete the trio) and SET cause he's a wall.
I left my SEE in per the above post and I've dropped like a rock. Even had people short hit me 2 places just for the "easy win" to which they told me it was. some were slkr (to be expected) but also the reys won as well.
People with JML also have rey or slkr... so its useless there cause all the JML users just swapped out jml for rey and got the free win.
Maybe cause my shard is older so the players (who've stuck around) are better then newer ones.. maybe?
Or maybe its cause Rey does more damage then this "attacker" and a well timed ult from rey nullifies everything SEE can do (linked target will die but see ALWAYS links rey for 0 reason.)
From a shard mate early on into my testing. We've tried again recently with a different team(no vid as his player was having issues) with similar results.
In the screen cap RJT was the only one dead. all the others he said were full life and protection.
I am just curious, which teams smash ultimate See apart from kylo and rey ?
I went against an ult see in tw with padme, thinking See is bad overall (my padme team is 2x r5 and 3x r7 with 6e mods on all) and got ripped apart.
Hmm, seep vs rey, I always focus my attack on Rey, so she never is sitting there with a million protection. And I'll try to pay more attention to his basic vs her on my next battle, but I feel it's more near to 90-100k damage on the basic, and she won't lifeblood herself much cause she can't recover her own health.
I guess this is also just a verbiage issue. Saying 1-shot, usually means 1 shot, not after the battle the finishing blow. I would say using the term 1-shot in this context is a little more "hype" than really killing SEE in 1-shot, unless that image started with him with full protection and health, which it may not have.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions. he did have full health and around 3/4 protection. this SEE seems to be modded differently than others talk about with a huge focus on health. but he also regens full health and protection when a sith ally dies, so its not so crazy to expect him to be pretty high up there in those pools as its approaching a 1v1 situation.
The team I saw, very specific, I know, not saying its end all be all, is doing well on defense, which usually means it will be much better under player control. so I thought I would share what i saw, since there was no "1-shot", and it seemed to play well.
I dont know the players experience vs SLKR, but the LS seem to be no issue.
seems to be the standard Trio, and WAT, or other slight variants, but the key seems to be SEE, Treya, DN. then other variations on the last 2. again shard dependent and whatnot. (not saying end all be all, and not my testing so very limited info at the moment)
The reason why treya is used is because AB completely SCREWS SEE harder then any of the other GLs. (SEE does no damage at all with his basics.) Take SEE and make it so his 3rd turn, minimum, is when he can even link. This is another reason why speed is used so he can at least attempt to outrun the other gls (who are faster to begin with) so he attempt to get link up.
DN is used cause the AI (specifically JKR and gas) hard target the crap outta treya which feeds DN health/TM.
Which leaves the +2. Normally sion (complete the trio) and SET cause he's a wall.
I left my SEE in per the above post and I've dropped like a rock. Even had people short hit me 2 places just for the "easy win" to which they told me it was. some were slkr (to be expected) but also the reys won as well.
People with JML also have rey or slkr... so its useless there cause all the JML users just swapped out jml for rey and got the free win.
Maybe cause my shard is older so the players (who've stuck around) are better then newer ones.. maybe?
Or maybe its cause Rey does more damage then this "attacker" and a well timed ult from rey nullifies everything SEE can do (linked target will die but see ALWAYS links rey for 0 reason.)
Treya can also isolate rey to help keep things under control. (obviously not on D)
have you tired, WAT to help solidify sion or SET (i'm sure you have, just asking because he seems like he would be the better option to hold on D)
the mods got together for a chat last night and this topic came up, i figured i would share, these GLs being the second set, has not only set a level of expectation, but also has many players getting 2nd or 3rd GL, so when things dont work out right away, being that there are options, its easy to just go back to what you know. Previous "meta shifts" (introduction of new powerful toons), had more of a sink or swim thing going on.
yes shards will be different, there is no getting around that, but you could give some context, where did you drop too? Sure players will take an easier win, but that is comp specific. I will short hop a mal fleet over some Kenobi variations. this is always going to be the game.
and just a note, from the beginning they have said well timed ultimates for Rey and SLKR can "turn the tide", so as i said before, its not going to be odd if Reys ultimate is a downfall on SEE at times.
Again, i'm just talking, I am sure you have tried things, I'm not saying he is fine or no changes need to be made. just had a few side conversations with people who are going good, and figured I would try to work out some of the details.
For those using SEE with triumvirate and SET what gear / relic level is Traya, Nihilus and co?
Mine are stuck at G12 as I'm very short on gear and relic materials so if SEE's optimal squad is with the Triumvirate then that's another downer - none of SEE's character requirements working with him.
So you spend gear on Sideous, RG etc then have to G13 and relic yet another bunch of characters.to try and use him in arena.
The reys on my shard hit an additional 40k ontop of that. Lowest I've seen her ult do is 260k to a single target.
So more like this:
in this battle, SEE did lose, i'm not trying to say he is doing great or anything. But showcasing that he can be modded to do better in this situation.
This is from a friend who has a SEE sitting top 10 most of the time for hours after PO, even holding 1 for a few POs. but we all know shards are very isolated situations. They use SEE to climb too.
His modding wouldn't help there at all. (I've tried all the mod differences. offense set doesn't give him enough damage. CD set is unreliable on all the crit immune targets... and hes WAY to slow to not run a speed set.)
Rey's next move is to put prot up on herself (which can't be prevented even though it should be classified as a buff).
then 1 turn later a WW would drop him low/kill him or she would tank him out to another Ult and its GG. I know this is what happened because thats how it even goes on offense.
I have looked a few times at the mods used, they dont ever seem to be using a speed set, yes some variation on primaries for health or offense, but the main focus seems to be health.
this player has no issues on offense. for what its worth.
The reys on my shard hit an additional 40k ontop of that. Lowest I've seen her ult do is 260k to a single target.
So more like this:
in this battle, SEE did lose, i'm not trying to say he is doing great or anything. But showcasing that he can be modded to do better in this situation.
This is from a friend who has a SEE sitting top 10 most of the time for hours after PO, even holding 1 for a few POs. but we all know shards are very isolated situations. They use SEE to climb too.
His modding wouldn't help there at all. (I've tried all the mod differences. offense set doesn't give him enough damage. CD set is unreliable on all the crit immune targets... and hes WAY to slow to not run a speed set.)
Rey's next move is to put prot up on herself (which can't be prevented even though it should be classified as a buff).
then 1 turn later a WW would drop him low/kill him or she would tank him out to another Ult and its GG. I know this is what happened because thats how it even goes on offense.
this player has no issues on offense. for what its worth.
The reys on my shard hit an additional 40k ontop of that. Lowest I've seen her ult do is 260k to a single target.
So more like this:
in this battle, SEE did lose, i'm not trying to say he is doing great or anything. But showcasing that he can be modded to do better in this situation.
This is from a friend who has a SEE sitting top 10 most of the time for hours after PO, even holding 1 for a few POs. but we all know shards are very isolated situations. They use SEE to climb too.
His modding wouldn't help there at all. (I've tried all the mod differences. offense set doesn't give him enough damage. CD set is unreliable on all the crit immune targets... and hes WAY to slow to not run a speed set.)
Rey's next move is to put prot up on herself (which can't be prevented even though it should be classified as a buff).
then 1 turn later a WW would drop him low/kill him or she would tank him out to another Ult and its GG. I know this is what happened because thats how it even goes on offense.
this player has no issues on offense. for what its worth.
How's he climbing through all the SLKRs
Since my shard has converted to mainly JML, it's a breath of fresh air having seep.
Nothing is safe on defense any more, nothing holds
I guess this is also just a verbiage issue. Saying 1-shot, usually means 1 shot, not after the battle the finishing blow. I would say using the term 1-shot in this context is a little more "hype" than really killing SEE in 1-shot, unless that image started with him with full protection and health, which it may not have.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions. he did have full health and around 3/4 protection. this SEE seems to be modded differently than others talk about with a huge focus on health. but he also regens full health and protection when a sith ally dies, so its not so crazy to expect him to be pretty high up there in those pools as its approaching a 1v1 situation.
The team I saw, very specific, I know, not saying its end all be all, is doing well on defense, which usually means it will be much better under player control. so I thought I would share what i saw, since there was no "1-shot", and it seemed to play well.
I dont know the players experience vs SLKR, but the LS seem to be no issue.
seems to be the standard Trio, and WAT, or other slight variants, but the key seems to be SEE, Treya, DN. then other variations on the last 2. again shard dependent and whatnot. (not saying end all be all, and not my testing so very limited info at the moment)
The reason why treya is used is because AB completely SCREWS SEE harder then any of the other GLs. (SEE does no damage at all with his basics.) Take SEE and make it so his 3rd turn, minimum, is when he can even link. This is another reason why speed is used so he can at least attempt to outrun the other gls (who are faster to begin with) so he attempt to get link up.
DN is used cause the AI (specifically JKR and gas) hard target the crap outta treya which feeds DN health/TM.
Which leaves the +2. Normally sion (complete the trio) and SET cause he's a wall.
I left my SEE in per the above post and I've dropped like a rock. Even had people short hit me 2 places just for the "easy win" to which they told me it was. some were slkr (to be expected) but also the reys won as well.
People with JML also have rey or slkr... so its useless there cause all the JML users just swapped out jml for rey and got the free win.
Maybe cause my shard is older so the players (who've stuck around) are better then newer ones.. maybe?
Or maybe its cause Rey does more damage then this "attacker" and a well timed ult from rey nullifies everything SEE can do (linked target will die but see ALWAYS links rey for 0 reason.)
Treya can also isolate rey to help keep things under control. (obviously not on D)
have you tired, WAT to help solidify sion or SET (i'm sure you have, just asking because he seems like he would be the better option to hold on D)
the mods got together for a chat last night and this topic came up, i figured i would share, these GLs being the second set, has not only set a level of expectation, but also has many players getting 2nd or 3rd GL, so when things dont work out right away, being that there are options, its easy to just go back to what you know. Previous "meta shifts" (introduction of new powerful toons), had more of a sink or swim thing going on.
yes shards will be different, there is no getting around that, but you could give some context, where did you drop too? Sure players will take an easier win, but that is comp specific. I will short hop a mal fleet over some Kenobi variations. this is always going to be the game.
and just a note, from the beginning they have said well timed ultimates for Rey and SLKR can "turn the tide", so as i said before, its not going to be odd if Reys ultimate is a downfall on SEE at times.
Again, i'm just talking, I am sure you have tried things, I'm not saying he is fine or no changes need to be made. just had a few side conversations with people who are going good, and figured I would try to work out some of the details.
Yep. tried wat. He gives out 1 tech before he's either stunned, AB, or dead. Offense or defense. Offense wise sion generally doesn't die with prot tech on him... until rey just deletes him instantly.
I had 2 health primaries (cross and circle) on my SEE along with the secondary health set. got him up to around 140k with the speed set. then I tried 2 prot primaries... but his low base prot didn't help much. his damage was even worse then now (I swapped 1 health primary for an offense circle). CD triangle is a must. gives the best bang.
his damage is way to low for having 0 utility. 4min 30sec battle and hes hitting 60k against a LS deceived target. thats crap.
after 4min my slkr is hitting 400k+ with a permanent stun and lowing the enemy stats.
I'm currently 16 with my SEE and half the shard hasn't moved yet. Normally with my SLKR, DR, bast, GBA, hux team I hold much better then that..
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
all these comparisons to SLK make me think that before everyone went aggro demanding SLK have a buff and he became OP, GLEE and SLK were actually on par as GLs. This may be a lesson in be careful what you wish for.
I for one don't want to see each DS toon constantly get a buff after incessant complaints to make them obscenely OP like the last one. Just nerf SLK
Well if the dark side didnt constantly get the shaft in this game then maybe people wouldnt complain so much.
Yes bc Dralak is so terrible right? and Sith Triumvirate are horrible. And those **** Geonosians are ****. And those GG droids are trash. Don't forget the lame BH and NS!!! And the ultimate tragedy: Darth Vader. Why none of those have ever once been meta! (spoiler alert: all of them have been meta)
Geos and BH were meta? You must have a very interesting shard.
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
This all, +1
Btw, out of all the factions, Palpatine deceived the Jedi the least. It was the Jedi that discovered his plans
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
Increase his damage - that is pretty much doable.
Honestly, yeah, I gotta say, all his basic form is missing is damage, and maybe some more utility on Link. Other than that, his pre-ult form is fine, it isn't supposed to be a god pre-ult anyway.
However, post-ult needs damage, needs a move to spam besides his basic, needs more survivability, needs a way to reduce cooldowns better, needs more benefits/synergy regarding deceived given that it's harder to manipulate post-ult, etc. There is no excuse for an ult that is supposed to be game changing to make the character weaker.
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
Increase his damage - that is pretty much doable.
Honestly, yeah, I gotta say, all his basic form is missing is damage, and maybe some more utility on Link. Other than that, his pre-ult form is fine, it isn't supposed to be a god pre-ult anyway.
However, post-ult needs damage, needs a move to spam besides his basic, needs more survivability, needs a way to reduce cooldowns better, needs more benefits/synergy regarding deceived given that it's harder to manipulate post-ult, etc. There is no excuse for an ult that is supposed to be game changing to make the character weaker.
Thats why my little list of proposed changes affects his passive, his lead, and giving him his second ability, aka his survival one, in his ult.
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
Increase his damage - that is pretty much doable.
Honestly, yeah, I gotta say, all his basic form is missing is damage, and maybe some more utility on Link. Other than that, his pre-ult form is fine, it isn't supposed to be a god pre-ult anyway.
However, post-ult needs damage, needs a move to spam besides his basic, needs more survivability, needs a way to reduce cooldowns better, needs more benefits/synergy regarding deceived given that it's harder to manipulate post-ult, etc. There is no excuse for an ult that is supposed to be game changing to make the character weaker.
I humbly disagree, 10-20k damage pre ult for a GL is horrendous my rebels hit harder
Just checked my top 50. Dominated by Rey and Kylo (obviously) but 6 squads with GML, 4 with him as lead, including the one currently at #1.
Not one single SEE present. Not one.
I have on Arena 2 SEEs Ultimate, it's the first GL for the first player, holds 30 place now, the second player used SEE several times, now mostly places JML. Just for those who looked at my post, from 40th place we still have players with 501.
SEE just needs small simple tweaks to be viable. I dont want him buffed into God mode either.
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
Increase his damage - that is pretty much doable.
Honestly, yeah, I gotta say, all his basic form is missing is damage, and maybe some more utility on Link. Other than that, his pre-ult form is fine, it isn't supposed to be a god pre-ult anyway.
However, post-ult needs damage, needs a move to spam besides his basic, needs more survivability, needs a way to reduce cooldowns better, needs more benefits/synergy regarding deceived given that it's harder to manipulate post-ult, etc. There is no excuse for an ult that is supposed to be game changing to make the character weaker.
I humbly disagree, 10-20k damage pre ult for a GL is horrendous my rebels hit harder
That would be why I said all he misses pre-ult is damage. Why is it disagreeable that I agree with you?
But guyys, with the right mods and strategy, you can beat JML teams with SEE. Yeahhh even though he's a direct counter to Jedi, it doesn't mean it should be an easy fight.
As long as he has one enemy GL he can kill, no matter how hard it is to do, that doesn't mean he needs to be buffes to do better on defense. It's totally normal to put a GL like SEE on defense and see your rank drop like a brick.
thedrjojo it's hard to tell how much of your success though is specifically just vs JML and his vulnerabilities (not to mention how much of it is Sith Empire, which handles Jedi okay but have various points of anti-synergy with SEE).
I agree Rey is underappreciated. For example, ultimate SEE can destroy Rey, but ultimate Rey can also 1-shot SEE. But I think--I don't know for sure, since few are crazy enough to do it--that if you stick Rey with her requirements she'll perform far better than SEE with his Sith requirements. Just as an attempt to see how strong the GL itself is, against a non-Jedi GL like Rey or especially SLKR.
dgree can you show us a Rey 1 shot SEE. This came up a few times after the protection change, but no one has show this happening.
SEE can survive one ultimate against Rey at the end, if he has close to full protection. After that, if you can't kill Rey, the next Ultimate will kill him.
and in all honesty, that sounds like "the correct" situation. it doesn't sound crazy for anyone to not survive 2 ultimates, without something in-between...regen or the like. Generally speaking.
and as I said in my other post, then the verbiage to describe that situation should probably not be "1-shot", but no reason to harp on semantics. sorry.
Ha. You know who else can survive multiple ultimate attacks? Rey can. I've had several fights where I've gotten off two ultimate attacks that can't finish the job.
Honestly the more I think about this I think SEE should become the "ultimate attacker" like CG said and make him insanely good on offense. As in can beat pretty much any team. This isn't as crazy as you might think, because to get to the ultimate and have the mastery boosts needed you have to let so many teammates die you're not getting a good banner count anyway. So lean into it and make him unbelievably powerful.
The trade off should be exactly what it is right now - everyone else can beat the hell out of him on defense.
How do you do this? Honestly I think they should make the ultimate harder to earn. Lower your pitchforks folks, I know how that sounds. But if you're running the team and you use the ultimate the second you get it, you're screwed because at that point he hasn't actually gained enough mastery to do anything truly damaging.
I also think they should take away the instakill on the ult because to be honest it's not that useful, and I guarantee that will be the thing people point to as to why they say he's powerful. In theory, yes, but in practice it's very underwhelming. So in place of that just make the damage be way higher.
Those asking for what he defended against. Only loss was Slkr and that was a 47 banner match, so exactly what slkr vs slkr or vs rey would be. Defended against sith trio, vader wat Thrawn, clones, jedi. So no one threw any other GL at it but also no one broke thru without a GL...
Per a Discord request, here are my 2 cents on why the problems with SEE will not be resolved and you would be better off getting any other GL.
I have been hoarding gear while I get shards and am almost finished with Piett. I will not, however, be getting SEE as I had anticipated and here is why:
1. SLKR is the designated counter to SEE and they will never make him strong enough to beat him (even with a buff). Since every “first GL” player that is unlocking for the foreseeable future will be SLKR, EP is the low man on the totem for arena and always will be.
2. He is much easier to get than JML (as far as characters needed) and so CG won’t let him be more versatile than him (even though SEE is the counter to JML).
3. His ultimate sucks in multi-wave battles and I want to be able to auto TB and GC’s (I’m lazy, but expect a GL to be able to do that).
4. Maul, RG, Krennic, Sidious
5. Half the teams in the game can beat him in GAC and there is no place for him on defense.
To me, these seem to be the immutable facts and they are unlikely to change; now I feel like I can no longer pursue SEE, as much as I wanted to. He really is the #4 GL in the pecking order and I am glad I hoarded my gear and didn’t drop a piece on any of his requirements.
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and in all honesty, that sounds like "the correct" situation. it doesn't sound crazy for anyone to not survive 2 ultimates, without something in-between...regen or the like. Generally speaking.
and as I said in my other post, then the verbiage to describe that situation should probably not be "1-shot", but no reason to harp on semantics. sorry.
I completely agree. That's why I tried to emphasize that it wasn't anything crazy. People throw around terms like "OBLITERATE" and "ERASE" and "TOTALLY DESTROY" when these terms are far more fitting in the context of Ben Shapiro's arguments against those with whom he disagrees! But really, what's interesting is damage. Rey being quite capable of hitting SEE for 250k is important context when discussing SEE killing Rey 1v1.
Btw, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is simply a modding difference. The more likely explanation is that in the picture where SEE survives, he had most of his prot pool intact. I don't think SEE has a million HP. He doesn't have an HP-increasing mechanic, say, the way SLKR does.
His modding wouldn't help there at all. (I've tried all the mod differences. offense set doesn't give him enough damage. CD set is unreliable on all the crit immune targets... and hes WAY to slow to not run a speed set.)
Rey's next move is to put prot up on herself (which can't be prevented even though it should be classified as a buff).
then 1 turn later a WW would drop him low/kill him or she would tank him out to another Ult and its GG. I know this is what happened because thats how it even goes on offense.
I'm not jumping to any conclusions. he did have full health and around 3/4 protection. this SEE seems to be modded differently than others talk about with a huge focus on health. but he also regens full health and protection when a sith ally dies, so its not so crazy to expect him to be pretty high up there in those pools as its approaching a 1v1 situation.
The team I saw, very specific, I know, not saying its end all be all, is doing well on defense, which usually means it will be much better under player control. so I thought I would share what i saw, since there was no "1-shot", and it seemed to play well.
I dont know the players experience vs SLKR, but the LS seem to be no issue.
seems to be the standard Trio, and WAT, or other slight variants, but the key seems to be SEE, Treya, DN. then other variations on the last 2. again shard dependent and whatnot. (not saying end all be all, and not my testing so very limited info at the moment)
The reason why treya is used is because AB completely SCREWS SEE harder then any of the other GLs. (SEE does no damage at all with his basics.) Take SEE and make it so his 3rd turn, minimum, is when he can even link. This is another reason why speed is used so he can at least attempt to outrun the other gls (who are faster to begin with) so he attempt to get link up.
DN is used cause the AI (specifically JKR and gas) hard target the crap outta treya which feeds DN health/TM.
Which leaves the +2. Normally sion (complete the trio) and SET cause he's a wall.
I left my SEE in per the above post and I've dropped like a rock. Even had people short hit me 2 places just for the "easy win" to which they told me it was. some were slkr (to be expected) but also the reys won as well.
People with JML also have rey or slkr... so its useless there cause all the JML users just swapped out jml for rey and got the free win.
Maybe cause my shard is older so the players (who've stuck around) are better then newer ones.. maybe?
Or maybe its cause Rey does more damage then this "attacker" and a well timed ult from rey nullifies everything SEE can do (linked target will die but see ALWAYS links rey for 0 reason.)
From a shard mate early on into my testing. We've tried again recently with a different team(no vid as his player was having issues) with similar results.
In the screen cap RJT was the only one dead. all the others he said were full life and protection.
actually no, it was sith triumvirate and set
Treya can also isolate rey to help keep things under control. (obviously not on D)
have you tired, WAT to help solidify sion or SET (i'm sure you have, just asking because he seems like he would be the better option to hold on D)
the mods got together for a chat last night and this topic came up, i figured i would share, these GLs being the second set, has not only set a level of expectation, but also has many players getting 2nd or 3rd GL, so when things dont work out right away, being that there are options, its easy to just go back to what you know. Previous "meta shifts" (introduction of new powerful toons), had more of a sink or swim thing going on.
yes shards will be different, there is no getting around that, but you could give some context, where did you drop too? Sure players will take an easier win, but that is comp specific. I will short hop a mal fleet over some Kenobi variations. this is always going to be the game.
and just a note, from the beginning they have said well timed ultimates for Rey and SLKR can "turn the tide", so as i said before, its not going to be odd if Reys ultimate is a downfall on SEE at times.
Again, i'm just talking, I am sure you have tried things, I'm not saying he is fine or no changes need to be made. just had a few side conversations with people who are going good, and figured I would try to work out some of the details.
Mine are stuck at G12 as I'm very short on gear and relic materials so if SEE's optimal squad is with the Triumvirate then that's another downer - none of SEE's character requirements working with him.
So you spend gear on Sideous, RG etc then have to G13 and relic yet another bunch of characters.to try and use him in arena.
I have looked a few times at the mods used, they dont ever seem to be using a speed set, yes some variation on primaries for health or offense, but the main focus seems to be health.
this player has no issues on offense. for what its worth.
How's he climbing through all the SLKRs
Since my shard has converted to mainly JML, it's a breath of fresh air having seep.
Nothing is safe on defense any more, nothing holds
Yep. tried wat. He gives out 1 tech before he's either stunned, AB, or dead. Offense or defense. Offense wise sion generally doesn't die with prot tech on him... until rey just deletes him instantly.
I had 2 health primaries (cross and circle) on my SEE along with the secondary health set. got him up to around 140k with the speed set. then I tried 2 prot primaries... but his low base prot didn't help much. his damage was even worse then now (I swapped 1 health primary for an offense circle). CD triangle is a must. gives the best bang.
his damage is way to low for having 0 utility. 4min 30sec battle and hes hitting 60k against a LS deceived target. thats crap.
after 4min my slkr is hitting 400k+ with a permanent stun and lowing the enemy stats.
I'm currently 16 with my SEE and half the shard hasn't moved yet. Normally with my SLKR, DR, bast, GBA, hux team I hold much better then that..
Make So be it, Jedi cleanse all DS allies before it calls to assist. Have this ability also work during his ult AND have some health regain as well. even just 25% tacked on.
Sow discord... currently its bugged so deceive won't spread or apply after he ults. it should also hit DS enemies as well as he not only manipulated the jedi, but also seps, other sith, empire ect.
Revitalized shock: remove the ls restriction.
Remove the "sith allys cant revive" from his lead.
Add something to his lead to buff the team in someway. Earlier thought would be to give all allys %offense based on half of their total potency, doubled for sith. would let sid and maul be useful.
Geos and BH were meta? You must have a very interesting shard.
This all, +1
Btw, out of all the factions, Palpatine deceived the Jedi the least. It was the Jedi that discovered his plans
Increase his damage - that is pretty much doable.
Honestly, yeah, I gotta say, all his basic form is missing is damage, and maybe some more utility on Link. Other than that, his pre-ult form is fine, it isn't supposed to be a god pre-ult anyway.
However, post-ult needs damage, needs a move to spam besides his basic, needs more survivability, needs a way to reduce cooldowns better, needs more benefits/synergy regarding deceived given that it's harder to manipulate post-ult, etc. There is no excuse for an ult that is supposed to be game changing to make the character weaker.
Thats why my little list of proposed changes affects his passive, his lead, and giving him his second ability, aka his survival one, in his ult.
I humbly disagree, 10-20k damage pre ult for a GL is horrendous my rebels hit harder
Not one single SEE present. Not one.
That would be why I said all he misses pre-ult is damage. Why is it disagreeable that I agree with you?
As long as he has one enemy GL he can kill, no matter how hard it is to do, that doesn't mean he needs to be buffes to do better on defense. It's totally normal to put a GL like SEE on defense and see your rank drop like a brick.
Ha. You know who else can survive multiple ultimate attacks? Rey can. I've had several fights where I've gotten off two ultimate attacks that can't finish the job.
Honestly the more I think about this I think SEE should become the "ultimate attacker" like CG said and make him insanely good on offense. As in can beat pretty much any team. This isn't as crazy as you might think, because to get to the ultimate and have the mastery boosts needed you have to let so many teammates die you're not getting a good banner count anyway. So lean into it and make him unbelievably powerful.
The trade off should be exactly what it is right now - everyone else can beat the hell out of him on defense.
How do you do this? Honestly I think they should make the ultimate harder to earn. Lower your pitchforks folks, I know how that sounds. But if you're running the team and you use the ultimate the second you get it, you're screwed because at that point he hasn't actually gained enough mastery to do anything truly damaging.
I also think they should take away the instakill on the ult because to be honest it's not that useful, and I guarantee that will be the thing people point to as to why they say he's powerful. In theory, yes, but in practice it's very underwhelming. So in place of that just make the damage be way higher.
Those asking for what he defended against. Only loss was Slkr and that was a 47 banner match, so exactly what slkr vs slkr or vs rey would be. Defended against sith trio, vader wat Thrawn, clones, jedi. So no one threw any other GL at it but also no one broke thru without a GL...
I have been hoarding gear while I get shards and am almost finished with Piett. I will not, however, be getting SEE as I had anticipated and here is why:
1. SLKR is the designated counter to SEE and they will never make him strong enough to beat him (even with a buff). Since every “first GL” player that is unlocking for the foreseeable future will be SLKR, EP is the low man on the totem for arena and always will be.
2. He is much easier to get than JML (as far as characters needed) and so CG won’t let him be more versatile than him (even though SEE is the counter to JML).
3. His ultimate sucks in multi-wave battles and I want to be able to auto TB and GC’s (I’m lazy, but expect a GL to be able to do that).
4. Maul, RG, Krennic, Sidious
5. Half the teams in the game can beat him in GAC and there is no place for him on defense.
To me, these seem to be the immutable facts and they are unlikely to change; now I feel like I can no longer pursue SEE, as much as I wanted to. He really is the #4 GL in the pecking order and I am glad I hoarded my gear and didn’t drop a piece on any of his requirements.
Mid ranged relics but not well modded.